"oops! Bad Link, sorry guys..." WTF!

15 years ago

I think half are real and half are fabricated. Either way, it works. Believe it or not, people respond to it. "Servers crashing" .... "My assistant sent out the wrong link" .... etc...

They all work - and what's better - if you work outside the IM space, it works even better. I always like to watch what others are doing within this IM space and then transform it into something I can use outside the space.

Thanks
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Afterglow 15 years ago

Voasi: I guess it would work even better on the outside too.
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Internet Undertaking

15 years ago

Hay Daniel,

I really think that the marketers who do this are more absent minded. We are all humans, marketers included, and can make mistakes sometimes. Forgetting to properly link something in an email can be forgotten when rushing one's work or if multitasking.

I don't do a lot of email marketing, and when its a mass email, I make sure everything is right and in place. Sounding professional, I think, is much better than sending two emails to a person making you look unpro. You probably won't be taken seriously and feel like you wasted their time with that first email.

I'd be very interested to hear from marketers who do this not by mistake, but on purpose. It doesn't really make much sense to me since if you send a first email with a nonworking link. First off, I'd say the viewer would toss the first email. And if you follow up with some weird apology letter and then provide the link....Well they won't be as interested in checking out your offer or update as they would have been on the first email.

Thanks
2 replies

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TerrieS 15 years ago

Personally, I hate this tactic as much as I abhor the Re: subject line one. Maybe I've just learned too much from the Warrior Forum and I'm onto them!
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- 1 reply
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- Afterglow 15 years ago
  
  I'm with ya Terrie S. lol
  
  Charles Montgomery: This is really happening too often, even outside real server attacks and crashes. sometimes I'm getting 3 to 4 marketers in a week doing the same thing. As it has been noted, it is a sales tactic to increase a want.
  
  JMonda: Geez! LOL I understand the frustration but legitimate marketers with great information and content are doing it too... please don't erase them all with out reading through them (might be missing some of the good stuff)
  
  R B Riddick: Yep, I have become a bit more desensitized to it myself
  
  k kchoon: It would seem that once the people started seeing in too many lists or too often it does create a suspicious "oh that mistake... again" feeling making it less powerful.
  
  Rod Cortez: I understand the fact that there are threads like that out there but this one can and has been proven already that for the most part it is a tactic being used and intentionally done. I took it you were being sarcastic but I was truly wanting to know if others had experienced it because no one ever seemed to talk about it. Remember on those threads you speak about it's up to the person who writes the thread to waste their time. You don't have to waste yours too telling them how much you don't like them. lol (ironic eh)
  
  Shana_Adam: I agree at this time I think it's been done enough to say "Ok, lets change the tactic a bit before it becomes like the "make money" phrase" ya, know where people tend to just say "whatever" and move along.
  
  CDarklock: LMAO! That's the type of message I mean. I mean how many servers are crashing and don't these people have people checking and re-checking. It's an obvious tactic and not real. Just like the phrase "we're re-opening the doors because marketers are all sending angry emails and practically knocking our doors down to put the site back up" If Mike Filsaime said it, I might believe it but some others... naaaah.
  
  Webwyn: he he good point
  
  Floyd Fisher: Now you see, glad I made this post because although I've been involved with IM for some time DUH! I truly forgot about that idea... really, i did. (Ok so I'm a dork but that would make sense too) Thanks. [sometimes you forget the obvious stuff]
  
  I've responded to you all. Thank you for your attention and your feedback
  
  Good fortune, peace, light, energy,
  Daniel (Afterglow)
  
  Thanks
  
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Afterglow 15 years ago

Admiral W. with all due respect to your experience, if you saw how many things I'm signed up to in one account and how many people use the same tactic or even the same wording, you'd see just how intentional it is.

I guess it seems to create more of a desire since you went to get something and it wasn't available. Sort of like the horse and the carrot.
- Thanks
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Charles Washington

15 years ago

Every once in a while it happens. Do you remember last week when paypal went down for two hours? Maybe you didnt, but people who had sent emails with buying links had to resend the email blast.

They could have left the email alone, and the people who purchased after the crash would have been able to buy as normal. But during the crash, those that tried to pay with paypal were unable to buy the product.

It happens...

Thanks

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jmonda

15 years ago

Honestly I can't stand these tactics. If they will intentionally try to mislead you with the subject line then they will mislead you about what they are offering to you as well. I do not even look at this garbage it gets deleted immediately.

Thanks

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RB Riddick

15 years ago

Hi Daniel,

Yes, I'm having the same email experience.

At first, I took them seriously, but after about 8 or 9 of these emails, I finally figured it out.

They must learn it in an ebook somewhere, or maybe they just copy what other marketers are doing.

Anyway, it's a minor deception which, I think, can lower their credibility when discovered. However, I don't think most of them see it this way. To them it's just another trick to get their email opened and to call attention to the link they want you to click.

Riddick

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kkchoon

15 years ago

This is brilliant tactics! I think original from Frank Kren?? No matter how annoying this is, it works! When too many people start using it, effectiveness dropped...

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Shana_Adam 15 years ago

Its a terrible tactic that is not fair on the subscriber. there are some shameless money grabbing wannabe Gurus out there. the game gets old when you receive emails every week saying the link is broken.

Also how does it build credibility with a long term subscriber! I guess it doesn't therefore they need to milk it while they have you in their radar!
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Rod Cortez

15 years ago

That "tactic" doesn't bother me. What is getting "old" are threads that complain about something you cannot prove either way instead of using that energy and focus to build their own business(es).......but to each his or her own.

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Jason Gazaway

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Rod Cortez

That "tactic" doesn't bother me. What is getting "old" are threads that complain about something you cannot prove either way instead of using that energy and focus to build their own business(es).......but to each his or her own.

Agreed.

Listen, not all "gurus" are perfect. Many make mistakes.

Those that use this kind of "tactic" do it for a reason, it obviously works. Me personally, I don't use that in my business. But, guess what? I'm not perfect and it HAS happened.

People seem to take the negative "glass is half empty" side of things in this market and see the worst for some reason. Jaded IMer's lol...

Oh, guess what else...

Sometimes servers actually do get bogged down during launches and things go haywire....

Like I said before... it happens.

If a marketer chooses to lie and uses a tactic you don't like.......

MOVE ON! It's as easy as clicking a link at the bottom of every email they send out.

Bottom line, who cares?

If you do, unsubscribe. Problem solved.

If you don't, learn from it and apply or don't apply to YOUR business.

Simple as that.

Jason

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CDarklock

15 years ago

I got this one... hmm, half an hour ago.

I sent you an amazing audio interview this morning...
but I found out that the special offer I made at the
end wasn't working (a server crashed, as usual).

Thanks
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webwyn 15 years ago

I guess I'm over it. The first few times I wondered and gave them the benefit of the doubt.

However I still thought well if you can't get the link right (fairly important part of the EMail), then maybe your message and product/service ain't worth it.

After getting more then of course its really did look just like attention getting and maybe even trying to avoid SPAM filters.

Either way, like many tactics that look cheesy to marketers, it probably works.
- Thanks
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Floyd Fisher

15 years ago

Come on people, use your heads.

Do you know what really happens when you send out a non functioning link? Your inbox gets flooded with a bazillion emails telling you it's not working! Yeah, that's a real sales booster for sure.

It's a murphy thing, ok?

[ 2 ] Thanks
1 reply

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webwyn

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Come on people, use your heads.

Do you know what really happens when you send out a non functioning link? Your inbox gets flooded with a bazillion emails telling you it's not working! Yeah, that's a real sales booster for sure.

It's a murphy thing, ok?

Sounds cool, there the leads you really want to follow up.

Seriously though, tactic or mistake, it has an effect.

Thanks
1 reply

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Floyd Fisher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by webwyn

Sounds cool, there the leads you really want to follow up.

Seriously though, tactic or mistake, it has an effect.

If you want to to that, there are much better ways.....like actually, gasp, asking for feedback?

At least you're not tearing your hair out when you do that.

Thanks
1 reply

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Paul,

The first is the number of people who are ready to dump everyone who makes a mistake simply because other people have made it. It's funny to see the same pattern, time and time again. The more experienced a person is at this stuff, the less likely they are to believe it's anything but simple human error.

According to some folks here, human error is a clear sign of incompetence. Which is fine. Their opinion, their business. If they assume that, we're all better off if they unsubscribe and go elsewhere. Such snap judgements aren't an indication of someone who'd be pleasant to deal with anyway.

I see your point.

I can vouch for broken/missing links being an easily made error, as I have done it myself in the past.

But at the same time, I'm not sure that the opinions expressed in these type of threads suggest that the people giving them are typically prone to making snap judgements in the manner that you suggest.

I think it's probably more indicative of the type of lists that they are on, which could have pounded them into jadedness. I think that a lot of people would prefer not to unsubscribe, but when they do it's due to a build up and the act is like a 'release'. And perhaps this 'list jadedness' makes it easier for people to assume that those type of mailers are doing it purely as a tactic?

Perhaps they haven't found a decent list yet, written by someone who respects their email addy/inbox?

I know from my research that there are plenty of churn n' burn marketers in IM, and also many bait 'n switch type marketers, who seemingly spend no time 'wooing' their prospects once they have their email, but simply pound them with multiple offers and copy/paste pitches.

And judging by some of the comments in this forum, many people sign up for tons of lists for some reason, so I can imagine what effect this has on them when they get pounded each day. Of course, I also realise who's fault it is that their inbox is in such a state, plus I don't really see the point in them whingeing about it in a 'why don't they treat me with respect?' manner - due to the nature of this 'buyer but also a marketer' marketplace, I think they should just start their own newsletter and do it 'better' themselves.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Roger,

But at the same time, I'm not sure that the opinions expressed in these type of threads suggest that the people giving them are typically prone to making snap judgements in the manner that you suggest.

Typically? No way to be sure. It's too isolated a context.

It's an indication of their thinking on the people in the business, though. Look at many of the responses in this thread and others on the same subject and you'll see a distinct tone of hostility.

Sure, they may be getting bombarded with emails. Most of us are. If we choose to become jaded, that's our fault, not the fault of the people sending the email. If we choose to make the assumption that anything unclear is evil, that's our fault, too.

Here's a piping hot, fresh out of the oven example: I sent out a newsletter Saturday that was, by actual word count, 94.8% content and 3.75% low-key promotion of a product. (The rest was administrivia.)

I got a couple of unsubscribes complaining about "the hype," and one accusing me of running a scam. (The promotion was for a book on creativity. Not even a business book, strictly speaking.)

That's their business. I got used to that stuff long, long ago. It's useful as an example, though. Some possible explanations:

1. Reflex. They didn't even read it. Just felt like unsubscribing and wrote something in the feedback form to express some existing annoyance. Kicking the neighbor's dog, so to speak.

2. They read it and something in it hit them the wrong way. Maybe the part about, "Do these pants make me look fat?" Fair enough, but where does "hype" enter into it?

3. They really think that was hype. In that case, they have no business in this business, and are better off using their time for other things.

Now, you expect that kind of response to an email that's purely promotional, especially if it involves something on making money. The thing that makes this a good example is that the promotion was VERY low-key, and not on a subject about which you see a lot of pitches in this market.

These folks were, for whatever reason, expressing hostility that simply didn't fit the circumstance. Just like many of the people in this and similar threads.

Are they all like that, all the time? Probably not. Do I know why they were today? No. Is there a pattern to it? Yes.

There are bitter and cynical people in every walk of life. In business, they tend to be a bit louder, and they are quick to make accusations of fraud, deception, and other malevolent intent, with no basis other than the notion that someone else must be responsible for the fact that they're not happy.

I don't find those people especially pleasant to deal with, whatever their reasons. Fortunately, they're a distinct minority.

Paul

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Undergrad

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

There are bitter and cynical people in every walk of life. In business, they tend to be a bit louder, and they are quick to make accusations of fraud, deception, and other malevolent intent, with no basis other than the notion that someone else must be responsible for the fact that they're not happy.

I don't find those people especially pleasant to deal with, whatever their reasons. Fortunately, they're a distinct minority.

Paul

Well said sir.

Peter

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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Perhaps they haven't found a decent list yet, written by someone who respects their email addy/inbox?

I have unsubscribed to all lists by marketers except the ones that are for upgrade notification only or one where I'm actually waiting for a product release. I bought a product recently and had to opt in to a list to get the product.

Sure enough, one email the first day ... two emails the second day ... unsubscribe. I assumed this person would email when there was another plr package available rather than just continually spam my email. That wasn't the case.

I have gotten a lot of those bad link emails in the past ... far too many for it to be coincidence that so many marketers so carelessly send out bad links. Guess what ... I unsubscribe to them too.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If they assume that, we're all better off if they unsubscribe and go elsewhere. Such snap judgements aren't an indication of someone who'd be pleasant to deal with anyway.Paul

Agreed ... that it is better to unsubscribe and go elsewhere. Far too many email marketers just don't do it right ... they end up abusing the privilege of permission to use my email as a means of marketing to me.

Thanks

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BIG Mike

Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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Kim Standerline

15 years ago

Yeah I hold my hands up and agree I've done it as well, but I can assure you I've never done it as a marketing ploy.

Gremlins often get into the system, I always check my links but sometimes crap happens and they don't work for some reason.

To be honest I find it damned embarressing when I have to send an oops email, luckily they don't happen very often

Kim

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Exactly - I just love sitting here answering a gazillion emails because I was in a hurry and either forgot the link entirely or didn't test it first because I was in a hurry.

If it's a "Tactic", it's a stupid one. Fortunately, I've only done this a couple of times, but what a pain in the ass when it happens!

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Asher 15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I got this one... hmm, half an hour ago.

I know who you're talking about... but whatever
interviews he does, I'll jump in on it. Even though
I clearly know he's promoting something.

His offer is usually the same thing... but still, the
man is an awesome interviewer. He digs gold!

Asher
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aniebee

15 years ago

It has come to the point where I unsubscribe to most of these, I'm sorry to all the "real" claims of "wrong link," but i HATE fake tactics.

If I don't get one/day, then it's a good day.

Sorry to everyone that does this for a real reason, but come up with a different tag line.

Thanks
1 reply

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Afterglow 15 years ago

Yes I've realized that, except for a few there are many marketers that seem to all market the same items. What's sad is if you have as many subscriptions as I do you see them all using the exact same headers and many of them will use the same email and send it several times a day.

Everything you always read says to try and make it personal, unique, not something they can go to the next marketer (even if it's the same thing) and realize it is immediately and just say hey "it's all the same" ... many of them seem not to do that at all.

I might have the wrong idea about them, with all due respect but i'll be sifting though and unsub'ing just because it's too much clutter and nothing different in the grand scope of things being offered other than in specific cases.

Daniel
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- Kevin Riley 15 years ago
  
  I get really skeptical when I get the "My dog ate the link" e-mails.
  
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  Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kevin Riley
  
  I get really skeptical when I get the "My dog ate the link" e-mails.
  
  Oh sure, but if it was a hampster doing the damage, it would be perfectly acceptable? damn hypocrite!
  
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  Kevin Riley 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall
  
  Oh sure, but if it was a hampster doing the damage, it would be perfectly acceptable? damn hypocrite!
  
  That's why I send them out to take the flak. Perfect fall guys. Furry and cute and nobody can get mad at them.
  
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  sevenish 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kevin Riley
  
  That's why I send them out to take the flak. Perfect fall guys. Furry and cute and nobody can get mad at them.
  
  In Nebraska, the prairie dogs are the main work force. They're cute too, and really stoic when it comes to flak.
  
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jasonl70

15 years ago

OK - I have sent bad links a few times. That's right - I am human and I do not always test them. And it's embarrassing as hell to have to send that follow-up.

And let me point this out - I don't need some lame excuse to send out another email. It's not that hard to come up with something to send out. There's always some sort of relevent news/scandal/tip/idea/etc you can email about w/o resorting to a 'tactic' that makes you look incompetent. So I simply can not see anyone actualy doing it on purpose - anyone with email marketing experience would realize it's just not needed.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Daniel,

this one can and has been proven already that for the most part it is a tactic being used and intentionally done.

Really? I would be curious to see this "proof."

I'm sure there are some people who see (or think they see) an overall benefit in that kind of tactic. Maybe there is one if it's done right. I don't see it, though.

There are a couple of interesting points that come to mind at the moment. The first is the number of people who are ready to dump everyone who makes a mistake simply because other people have made it. It's funny to see the same pattern, time and time again. The more experienced a person is at this stuff, the less likely they are to believe it's anything but simple human error.

According to some folks here, human error is a clear sign of incompetence. Which is fine. Their opinion, their business. If they assume that, we're all better off if they unsubscribe and go elsewhere. Such snap judgements aren't an indication of someone who'd be pleasant to deal with anyway.

The second one is curious enough to warrant a separate thread, I think.

Paul
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TopLevelGeek

15 years ago

I can handle the occasional "missed link" Its the "I've planned this big launch for 6 monthes and oops my server crashed" that I can't stand. I have unsubscribed from a few big name lists because of that

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Steven Carl Kelly

15 years ago

This IS a tactic that has been intentionally employed, whether we'd prefer to believe so or not.

I've never personally used that technique because it's simply too deceptive for my tastes. However, I know of one IM'er who has directly stated that he's used it successfully and quoted to me open rates that indicate it is a viable strategy for him so long as it isn't overused. Another IM'er he mentored in the past has also intentionally employed the technique.

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Floyd Fisher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

This IS a tactic that has been intentionally employed, whether we'd prefer to believe so or not.

I've never personally used that technique because it's simply too deceptive for my tastes. However, I know of one IM'er who has directly stated that he's used it successfully and quoted to me open rates that indicate it is a viable strategy for him so long as it isn't overused. Another IM'er he mentored in the past has also intentionally employed the technique.

In the interest of making some positive discussion, and not attacking each other, I've decided to chew on this, and see if I can twist this around to something more ethical and moral.

If this works, it's probably due to the fact lots of people generally receive lots of emails, so it's possible the original email sent out got lost in a massive stack of stuff that piles up in inboxes worldwide.

How about instead, we send the same promo several times, spaced out over several days (or weeks if you desire), and just put some kind of disclaimer at the top stating you're doing this intentionally, and why.

What do you think? Viable tatic, or have I been eating too much of Kevin Riley's hamster food?

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Martin Luxton

15 years ago

Two thoughts come to mind here.

If the link really was broken, do you have to resend the same message right away. Why not be a bit more creative?

Write a really good info packed and useful email, or even send a freebie then mention

"By the way, I sent an email earlier with a bad link. Sorry about that. Here's the correct one."

Secondly, this subject line is overused so genuine mistakes are often condemned out of hand. Give people the benefit of the doubt but "track" them.

What I mean is this.

Marketer A sends an "Oops!" message blaming a server crash. A few months later another "Oops!" message and again a server crash.

Then you see s/he is promoting his/her hosting company with an affiliate link. Maybe that is the time to unsubscribe.

Martin

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psresearch

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Secondly, this subject line is overused so genuine mistakes are often condemned out of hand. Give people the benefit of the doubt but "track" them.

Martin

I still have seen NO evidence at all that a "broken link" email is an intentionally used "ploy". In fact as I mentioned before, the more I tried to look for any real evidence of it being a "ploy" the more likely it seemed that a subject line would be based on a REAL mistake.

Again:
Look at what a pure Google search turns up for the original phrase of "Oops! Bad link":
PLUS. Look at what a pure Google search turns up for the original phrase of "Oops! Bad link":http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Apparently it is a fairly common phrase that people use when correcting a bad link - and that doesn't even account for all the reasonable variations.

LOL. Now, this is funny - I posted the WRONG LINK for that Google Search twice now. The one I should have posted is this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Over 1 MILLION results using exact match.

Or maybe I'm just trying to get you to read the info from the original post again? ;-)

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Undergrad

15 years ago

I'm new to IM so my opinion may be moot, however, I can see how this, if used effectively, could be a profitable tactic. If your link doesn't work and you recieve emails about it, doesn't that mean that there are those that would definitely be interested in what you are selling. I imagine that you could build an entirely seperate list solely based on people that reply to your "broken link".

Secondly, business interactions, in my opinion, whether you're buying or selling, are all about rapport. Making a mistake makes you human and allows your list to connect with you. If they can relate to the fact that you're just a regular guy too their trust in you will increase and most likely increase your CTR. I definitely prefer emails that feel as though it is one friend to another rather than some mass produced, mass delivered email.

Do I think that it is overused, of course. Do I think that it is ineffectively used, most definitely. Do I think that if put in the hands of someone who can use it effectively it could be a profitable tactic, absolutely.

Peter

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Jay Jennings

15 years ago

As it has been noted, it is a sales tactic to increase a want.

Who is teaching that? In what course can I find that shown as a sales tactic?

I read a LOT of marketing stuff and haven't come across that one yet, but I could have missed it.

If you've never screwed up a link when promoting something, you're probably not doing email marketing.

Jay Jennings

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psresearch

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jay Jennings

Who is teaching that? In what course can I find that shown as a sales tactic?

I read a LOT of marketing stuff and haven't come across that one yet, but I could have missed it.

If you've never screwed up a link when promoting something, you're probably not doing email marketing.

Jay Jennings

I've never seen it taught, either, but this was an interesting read about remailings:
VerticalResponse Email Marketing Blog for Small Business: The "Oops" Mailing - To Re-mail or Not to Re-mail

Apparently in this example the company did a remailing because they made a mistake on the first mailing that made it look like spam.

The results are listed in the article as follows (note: there is no mention of how big the list size is or any info on the list):

"•They apologized and poked fun at the situation:
Sorry gang, I should have had a cup of coffee before I originally sent this newsletter this AM. The 'from' line in the email was incorrect, as it said 'March Newsletter' instead of 'Andiamo Systems'. Which means no one knew who it came from, so a lot of people probably won't open it. Sorry for the resend, but I wanted everyone to have a chance to receive and read this newsletter.
•Their subject line read "Oops - Resend of "Easy Ways to Build WoM"
•They didn't have any unsubscribes from the second mailing.
•The second mailing gave them more opens than the first getting them back up to the 35+% open rate.
•Their click rate was more than double the first mailing.
•When they downloaded the list they saw that the unsubscribes were prospects that were likely never to become customers."

I did run across quite a few "wrong link" mailings listed here:
site:subjectlinesandbox.blogspot.com "wrong link" - Google Search

But I have no idea how that site is collecting those subject lines, so again it proves nothing.

PLUS. Look at what a pure Google search turns up for the original phrase of "Oops! Bad link":http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Apparently it is a fairly common phrase that people use when correcting a bad link - and that doesn't even account for all the reasonable variations.

So merely seeing a few examples of it being used tells me nothing about the intent behind the use of the phrase.

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Paul,

Interesting. I agree with what you say, and I'm also aware of your vast experience on this, in comparison to mine.

But that aside, I am compelled to ask some questions/make some points -

It's an indication of their thinking on the people in the business, though. Look at many of the responses in this thread and others on the same subject and you'll see a distinct tone of hostility.

We both know that a predominately consumer mindset produces some interesting but also predictable attitudes. This is often found in people as they walk the path to becoming an IMer, IE - less consumer minded and more marketer minded.

Even someone who is totally consumer-minded (for example, someone who has never considered being a marketer or doing business online) has elements of that hostility from the barrage of advertising, junk-mail and borderline deceptive practices they encounter in their every-day dealings - for example, from their essential service providers such as water or power companies.

In other words, to some degree, it is to be expected - even in a soft-sell situation. Most persuasion study materials will emphasize how people have a built-in natural defence mechanism which kicks in when they detect that they are being sold to - even if they strongly desire and require the item.

Surely as marketers, we should be primed to expect, accept, deflect and eventually capitalise on this hostility?

Sure, they may be getting bombarded with emails. Most of us are. If we choose to become jaded, that's our fault, not the fault of the people sending the email. If we choose to make the assumption that anything unclear is evil, that's our fault, too.

With the utmost respect, could I offer the suggestion that you are 'choosing' to sound jaded by entirely predictable responses from those type of people and that you should choose not to let them jade you?

I'm not saying that their reactions are correct or fitting of the circumstances, but I'm suggesting that it is entirely predictable and to be expected, therefore we should be immune to it. I have lost count of the amount of times that you have correctly pointed out in one of your posts that even though things peak and trough in cycles, the core things never really change - they just undulate.

Are they all like that, all the time? Probably not. Do I know why they were today? No.

I think you do know why - because there will always be a small subset that reacts in that way, regardless of the specifics - soft-sell, hard-sell, whatever - someone will take the hump.

There are bitter and cynical people in every walk of life. In business, they tend to be a bit louder, and they are quick to make accusations of fraud, deception, and other malevolent intent, with no basis other than the notion that someone else must be responsible for the fact that they're not happy.

I totally agree.

But!...

a) some of them can be helped. They're just jaded and need to establish some mind-clarity. I know that if they manage to stick with you, you will provide them with it if they can become receptive to the message.

b) my main point is that even though most of this hostility is pointless and unjustified, we have to accept that many of the deceptive tactics used by some of the less ethical marketers out there, will have caused a groundswell of hostility - it's just an unfortunate fact that people don't always channel their release of that hostility in the right directions - they often justify this by generalising and delivering it back to the group as a whole (IE 'email marketers'), rather than the bad-eggs who caused it to build up in the first place.

A bit like the guy who has a bad day at the office because of his boss, or his sidekick, then when he returns home and his faithful pooch runs up for his daily love, he gets shoo-ed away instead of a friendly pat.

The dog is hurt and confused because he doesn't understand the concept of 'a bad day at the office' or misdirected retribution. It is our job as email marketers to do as much as we can to produce subscribers as loyal as the average pooch (in order to forgive us our broken link sins) and conversely, it is our job to be faithful pooches and forgive our subscribers when they kick us because Joe Schmoe caused them to have a bad day. But of course, there is also a line that needs to be drawn, unless we want to be treated like an abused dog.

Surely if we react by saying 'this is getting old', we are not so far removed from the other people on the other end of the line who are suggesting that 'using the broken link 'trick' is getting old'?

If people choose to be cynical - let them. Try and encourage them to see things differently, to see less absolutes, make less assumptions and overall - be less cynical. But if this doesn't work, we must not let them make us cynical about them, surely?

(PS - if you see a new subscribe from me, I just worked out why I haven't got your emails since July. I killed a very old email address of mine that was getting spammed, and because I subscribed back in the stone age, it was that email I used. Woops.)

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JayXtreme

15 years ago

I've done this a few times...

Never as a marketing ploy, purely as the scatter brain ... but nobody will EVER know that, they only have my word for it..

I don't understand why stuff like this gets put under scrutiny, when we will never have all the facts to debate with any clarity.

Peace

Jay

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Jay,

I don't understand why stuff like this gets put under scrutiny, when we will never have all the facts to debate with any clarity.

Excuse the 'us and them' but -

From our point of view - I think it's a helpful discussion.

From their point of view, I think that many are jaded. Sure, there might be many reasons for this - some of them totally unrelated - but as mentioned above, I think it's something that if understood (as best as possible), can be turned into a positive and leveraged.

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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Hey Roger... good to see you here

Originally Posted by ExRat

From our point of view - I think it's a helpful discussion.

Whilst I can fully appreciate that most discussions here can be helpful to some extent..

Is it really helpful when the majority of the points will be/are speculative at best and downright ludicrous at worst?

If we had more facts about this, say for example.. if 5 or 10 close friends were sat in a room, they would be more inclined to be honest about their own, personal reasons for doing this.. then maybe the discussion would be helpful.

As it is, I fail to understand how it can be... I could be wrong. Either way, I'm not making the decision.. just don't understand it..

Peace

Jay

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Martin Avis

15 years ago

There are people who see the bad in every action that marketers make.

In well over a thousand ezines have I ever sent out a bad link and had to send a correction? Yes, of course I have. Lots of times.

Was it ever a deliberate 'ploy'? Of course not. Get a life.

It is embarrassing and as has been said earlier in the thread, it is damned annoying having to deal with all the well-meaning subscribers who think they are the first person to spot your balls-up.

Does it result in more sales? Not in my experience. In fact, I'd suggest that it can sometimes result in less. After all, the first email with the bad link isn't going to get you any sales and the follow up is going to be looked on with suspicion by all those armchair cynics who are convinced you are pulling a fast one.

The fact is that those of us who sit down and write stuff for other people to read are human. (Yes, even Paul Myers but don't tell him!) As Humans we screw up quite often.

Yes, I agree that we should double-check our links, our personalization tags, our website content, our spelling and a dozen other things before we click on the send button, but when you've spent three hours writing a newsletter, your wife is pacing the hallway waiting for you to take her to the shops, the cat has just thrown up under the kitchen table, a dozen support emails have just hit your inbox and the kids are engaging in all-our war, some things, sometimes get overlooked.

Not a ploy - just life.

Martin

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ExRat 15 years ago

Hi Jay,

Is it really helpful when the majority of the points will be/are speculative at best and downright ludicrous at worst?

I think you might be giving all of the other threads too much credit. The way I see it, they fit the description too. But it's all about finding value amongst the dross - surely that's an approach that has to be adopted internet-wide?

And yes - I'm choosing to be cynical - I don't have the time not to be, in that scenario! Apply those dross-filters unforgivingly...
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Kim Standerline

15 years ago

I think Martin has summed this up quite nicely for the majority of us who don't resort to underhand tactics.

Some folks do tend to think the worst tho. I sent out an oops email once and got back a very irate email from a subscriber who said he thought better of me

He was very apologetic when I emailed back and said it was something I'd never indulged in, he had automatically assumed it was some dastardly trick

Kim

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

There are people who see the bad in every action that marketers make.

In well over a thousand ezines have I ever sent out a bad link and had to send a correction? Yes, of course I have. Lots of times.

Was it ever a deliberate 'ploy'? Of course not. Get a life.

It is embarrassing and as has been said earlier in the thread, it is damned annoying having to deal with all the well-meaning subscribers who think they are the first person to spot your balls-up.

Does it result in more sales? Not in my experience. In fact, I'd suggest that it can sometimes result in less. After all, the first email with the bad link isn't going to get you any sales and the follow up is going to be looked on with suspicion by all those armchair cynics who are convinced you are pulling a fast one.

The fact is that those of us who sit down and write stuff for other people to read are human. (Yes, even Paul Myers but don't tell him!) As Humans we screw up quite often.

Yes, I agree that we should double-check our links, our personalization tags, our website content, our spelling and a dozen other things before we click on the send button, but when you've spent three hours writing a newsletter, your wife is pacing the hallway waiting for you to take her to the shops, the cat has just thrown up under the kitchen table, a dozen support emails have just hit your inbox and the kids are engaging in all-our war, some things, sometimes get overlooked.

Not a ploy - just life.

Martin

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Shaun OReilly

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jay Jennings

So the original email wasn't all that important?

Because if it was "good stuff" why would you punish your subscribers by not correcting your mistake?

If it was good enough to send, isn't it good enough for them to get? I think if you don't correct it you're not looking out for the best interests of your subscribers.

Know what I mean? =

Jay Jennings

I hear what you're saying Jay and I have considered that aspect
you mention.

However, the way I keep the best interests of my subscribers at
heart is by taking sufficient care and attention at the start so
bad links don't go out at all.

Why?

Not because I'm perfect - I'm not - I'm a falilble human being just
like anyone else.

What I do have is a good SYSTEM in place to avoid the potential
problem of 'bad links' so it doesn't happen in the first place.

(I'm a former engineer so systems can provide the solution).

Prevention is better than cure.

Like I said, I at least triple check my links.

By letting the system do the work of preventing the AVOIDABLE
problem I honestly haven't send out the 'oops bad link' e-mail...
ever.

If your life depended upon you getting the links right in every
e-mail you sent out to your subscribers or customers, how many
bad links would you send out?

Casualness leads to casualties.

The problem (as I see it anyways) is list owners taking insufficient
care and attention to eliminate the problem in the first place.

What the hell they think - let's just send the e-mail again.

Nope - not me.

The triple check system eliminates the problem at source.

There's also another marketing reason for my approach: positioning.

If I send the 'oops bad link' (along with 'bad news', 'payment
received' etc) and other subject lines lumps me together in a
crowd I don't want to bunched with.

Plus, 'oops bad link' type e-mails also run the risk of getting your
list members to distrust you - even if your links were genuinely
mis-typed.

So my position on this is that I care enough about my subscriber's
to get the link right in the first place.

Now of course, there is the possibility that in future I slip up
(by not applying the triple check system) and send out a bad
link.

My bad. I'll send the correct link in a P.S. in the following week's
e-mail, That way, the subscribers get the link and I don't interrupt
them unnecessarily again. But it ain't happened yet.

The system is the solution to a completely avoidable and annoying
problem for both parties.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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Bob Willoughby

15 years ago

Everybody makes mistakes. But if the same IMer keeps making the same mistakes (oops, bad link) it is time to hit the "unsubscribe button". If you made that bad link mistake one time you would be double checking all of your links before sending an email.

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Martin Avis

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Bob Willoughby

Everybody makes mistakes. But if the same IMer keeps making the same mistakes (oops, bad link) it is time to hit the "unsubscribe button". If you made that bad link mistake one time you would be double checking all of your links before sending an email.

If only life were so simple.

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Shaun OReilly

15 years ago

I've been writing newsletters since 2003 and have a policy
on what I will and (will not) do in the event of a link mistake.

Firstly, let me say that I place a a lot of focus on my subscribers
and value their time and attention immensely. So much so that I
at least TRIPLE check all of my links via test mailings beforehand.

If you're on a list and the sender is sending too many 'oops-type'
e-mails they're either a complete BS merchant or they're not
really valuing you as a subscriber.

If I mess up and send out a bad link - it's my bad and I will NOT
e-mail my subscribers an additional e-mail with the good links.

Why not?

It's my mistake and it's up to me to pay more attention next
time.

So if I mess up - no quick corrective e-mail is sent out.

Tough titties for me - not my subscribers!

This policy has taught me the discipline of checking, re-checking
and checking links again so bad links are now infrequent.

That's my policy on the 'bad link' scenario anyways.

It's my responsibility to pay intense attention to links to make
sure that they work in the first e-mail so a second one is not
necessary.

P.S. If you're sending out links, make sure that they're done
via your own domain so that you have 100% control of them
thereafter (e.g. via a redirect or tracking link).

This way, you can take corrective action on the link afterwards
if necessary. This is especially the case for links to other sites
in case they change their destination URL (you can then change
it via your domain 'on the hop').

This doesn't cover the case of a mis-typed URL of course but
they should not happen anyways if you triple check your links
in the first place.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Roger,

Surely as marketers, we should be primed to expect, accept, deflect and eventually capitalise on this hostility?

Learning to deal with defensiveness is sensible, sure. However, when someone is overtly hostile without good cause, I don't personally choose to try and turn it around. I let those people leave if they want.

Note that I'm talking about hostility, not strong disagreement. There are lines, and if you (the generic you, not Roger) cross them, you get the boot.

With the utmost respect, could I offer the suggestion that you are 'choosing' to sound jaded by entirely predictable responses from those type of people and that you should choose not to let them jade you?

You are interpreting incorrectly. Unless they tell me what their thinking is, I rarely assume anything about it. It's a data point, and nothing more.

I am choosing the type of person I won't associate with. Just like I allow people to choose not to deal with me, and do not hassle them over that choice.

I don't require people to tell me why they unsubscribed, for example. Most people don't, and I'm not even aware that they've left in that case. Not my business. The vast majority of the ones who do explain say it's because they're cutting down on email to save time. Others don't find the information relevant to their situation. Some leave because it's too long. Some don't like the writing style. All perfectly valid reasons, and those people are making good choices when they leave.

So are the people who are annoyed. It doesn't matter why they feel that way. The fact that they do is enough good reason to go elsewhere.

some of them can be helped. They're just jaded and need to establish some mind-clarity. I know that if they manage to stick with you, you will provide them with it if they can become receptive to the message.

Possibly, but is it appropriate for me to try and talk them out of unsubscribing? The deal is, they can leave whenever and for whatever reason they want. If they're not getting what they want from it, they should leave.

I'm a long way from cynical about it. If someone wants to take a slap on their way out the door, cool. Better they slap at me than their kids or the person at the checkout where they buy their groceries.

I only usually get into it when someone posts stuff publicly that could give others a wrong impression. In threads like this, for example.

Paul

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ExRat 15 years ago

Hi Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to explain.
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Jay Jennings

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

If I mess up and send out a bad link - it's my bad and I will NOT
e-mail my subscribers an additional e-mail with the good links.

So the original email wasn't all that important?

Because if it was "good stuff" why would you punish your subscribers by not correcting your mistake?

If it was good enough to send, isn't it good enough for them to get? I think if you don't correct it you're not looking out for the best interests of your subscribers.

Know what I mean? =

Jay Jennings

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Martin Luxton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jay Jennings

So the original email wasn't all that important?

Because if it was "good stuff" why would you punish your subscribers by not correcting your mistake?

If it was good enough to send, isn't it good enough for them to get? I think if you don't correct it you're not looking out for the best interests of your subscribers.

Know what I mean? =

Jay Jennings

Dear subscriber

This email is so good I'm gonna send it to you three times!

Jay, we may have stumbled upon a great new marketing technique.

Martin

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

I've screwed up a link in an e-mail that went out to over 160,000 members.

It does happen, and I read and re-read the damm e-mail 5 times.

Sometimes you just can't see the wood from the trees.

I sent out an apology shortly after I had a number of people letting me know and I did get a barrage of abuse , and this is from people who joined a very specific targeted double opt in list.

Mind you, when I say "a barrell" I guess 25-30 or so , not awful from 160,000.

**** happens.

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Hesaidblissfully 15 years ago

If anyone's email marketing tactics annoy me, I just unsubscribe.
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Afterglow

15 years ago

To all of you who've answered, thank you.

Yes, I did take into consideration that mistakes happen but we are also dealing with the law of averages here and in my experience I've seen this happen more often than it to be just a coincidence all of these times.

Some people have even admitted that it is an attempt at getting people to crave it even more. It may bother some people but it seems to create a bit of suspense or a flood of emails, as one person commented where people send "Your link is dead!" etc. trying to get access.

Thank you also for you candid responses as well

For the small portion that found this to ridiculous to have a thread on or a continuing discussion... again, that too is an opinion welcome but in the future if you would kindly try not to make it seem like you're attacking others for finding interest in something you don't please, it would be appreciated. In some people's opinion, that too can be ridiculous since you do have the option of not reading or participating in any particular thread.

Thank you again,
Muchas Gracias,
Domo arigato gozaimasu (I designed this specifically for Mr. Riley, lol) ,
Spaceba,
Daniel (Afterglow)

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Kevin Riley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Afterglow

Domo arigato gozaimasu (I designed this specifically for Mr. Riley, lol) ,

Douitashima****e

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Kevin Riley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Douitashima****e

Now that is funny. The WF software thinks that Japanese words are swear words, LOL.

Douitshimash ite

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Daniel,

For the small portion that found this to ridiculous to have a thread on or a continuing discussion... again, that too is an opinion welcome but in the future if you would kindly try not to make it seem like you're attacking others for finding interest in something you don't please, it would be appreciated. In some people's opinion, that too can be ridiculous since you do have the option of not reading or participating in any particular thread.

This sounds vaguely familiar...

"If you don't like it, just hit delete." (From a spammer)

"I have the right to free speech!" (From the vulgar teenager)

"We paid to see this, too!" (From the loud couple in the next row at the theater)

... and any other group or entity whose feelings of entitlement exceed their sense of appropriateness.

Some of us find it annoying because it's the same thing, again and again. The excuse is that the offenders are either too lazy to search and discover that it's all been argued before, or so smugly confident of their own uniqueness as to believe they've got something new to add to the argument.

Do they use the word "putz" in California?

Paul

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Afterglow 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Now that is funny. The WF software thinks that Japanese words are swear words, LOL.

Douitshimash ite

Weird yet funny (Omoshiroi ne)

On another note. I think I might privately ask some marketers if they intentionally or mistakenly did this.

I find it funny that some people are actually sort of upset that the subject is getting so much attention like they want people to stop talking about it.

It's ok people. It's just a discussion of curiosity on a possible marketing tactic, that's all.

Like every possible method of getting people's mouth to water this may be one of them.

Just think about this. If I had told you that someone was totally degrading their list members, swearing at them, calling them low-lives, telling them they are pathetic and stupid and letting them know they are waste of his (the list owners) time, most people would had probably thought the same as many of you, he's digging a IM grave by doing that.

ONLY!.. If you had never heard of Rich Jerk. (he's done everyone of those things) and continues to do it and has had for a while one of the largest followings. (although I don't condone nor am I trying to bring any specific marketing attention to him his methods must have been effect to a degree that they made him lots of money)

Now, there is a possibility that people are using a forgotten link or wrong link tactic in their email follow ups and you're thinking it's a bad move. Do you see now that the "see-saw" may have too many people at one end.

I believe some people here may be over reacting to a possible simple idea that may (since we are not sure) have been used.

Dan
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  I believe some people here may be over reacting to a possible simple idea that may (since we are not sure) have been used.
  
  It's already been established that we don't know in every case, and that it's likely some people did it deliberately. There are people who will see a more experienced person do something and repeat it, thinking it must be some sort of sooper-sekrit technique. Never occurs to them that it might just have been a test - or, much more likely, a mistake.
  
  You are deliberately ignoring the primary objection: This has all been discussed to death, again and again and again, and there's not a single thing new in the discussion.
  
  By insisting that rehashing the same argument over and over has some value, you encourage others to engage in the same silly behavior. The only value that has is to give the guru-bashers more of a platform for their ongoing stupidities.
  
  Maybe when you've actually participated here a bit more you'll see just what a destructive influence that is. Not just to the board, but to the bashers themselves.
  
  What do you suppose is the probable outcome of encouraging someone to hate success, Daniel?
  
  Paul
  
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jasonl70

15 years ago

I still cannot get over the fact that people think someone would shoot themself in the foot just to have an excuse to 'send another email'.. if I want to send an email to my list, I just do it.

It makes as much sense as farting when you are talking to a pretty girl, so you have an excuse to go up to her again later under the pretext of appologizing!

Maybe I am missing something here, but I have never had a good experience out of screwing up an email to my list.

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

lmao - I just got one of these emails!

Only difference is, I know that it was just a screw up, but I'm sure some people will think it was "planned"

Honestly, if you think that the people whose lists your on would do that to you on purpose, you shouldn't be on their list anyway...

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internetmarketer99

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

lmao - I just got one of these emails!

Only difference is, I know that it was just a screw up, but I'm sure some people will think it was "planned"

Honestly, if you think that the people whose lists your on would do that to you on purpose, you shouldn't be on their list anyway...

lol - I know which one you're referring to (I think so anyway). In that case I agree with you, but that's a 'rare' case of someone who's shown value over time.

Mark

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Steven Carl Kelly

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jasonl70

I still cannot get over the fact that people think someone would shoot themself in the foot just to have an excuse to 'send another email'.. if I want to send an email to my list, I just do it.

Jason, as I said upthread I've never intentionally done it, but I am acquainted with an internet marketer who has, and in the past he has presented me with open rates that far exceed his average open rates when using this tactic. It isn't even close... the "oops" e-mail gets opened at an incredible rate vs his normal open rate.

That's why he did/does it.

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internetmarketer99

15 years ago

Well, as a professional marketer, I make an effort to see that things as critical as sending a piece to a list is done correctly.

Mistakes do happen, no matter how careful.

That said, you'd have to be either naive or extremely gullible to believe at least a large number of these aren't intentional, for whatever reason.

When you start seeing the same things over and over across different lists, it's an appropriate conclusion.

Months ago I began unsubscribing from every list that sent me either:

"Bad investment" products ("Arbitrage Conspiracy", etc.)

A 'gimmick' subject line ("oops", "Re:", "Server crash...", etc.)

'Me too' promotions (cut & paste copy launch promotions, "A good friend of mine just released...")

Promotion-to-value ratio's above 75%.

This resulted in unsubscribing from about 80% of the lists I was on.

Glad I did it.

Mark

Thanks

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Mike Hill

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Afterglow

Is it just me or is this little I.M. tactic getting old. I don't know how many marketers use this in it's various ways but there can't be that many marketers actually making this same mistake and then using the same wording to rectify it.

You must have experienced it. (Scenario) A subscribed email is sent that tells you whatever. Then the link is either bad or broken or was left out completely. The next day the marketer tells you how he is absent minded, fudged up or whatever his or her excuse is for "accidentally" forgetting to have an operational link in there and is sending the present email with the corrected link.

I don't know if it's supposed to create suspense or gets more people to respond but frankly it's seeming like a seriously over used tactic. The apologies don't even seem sincere but rather like a robotic part of this (secret NLP advertising) trick LOL>

Any of you experiencing this and would someone please tell me the reason for this in the first place. It makes me want to NOT open the email.

Daniel

There is such a thing as it really happening... For instance tonight I sent an email and just after I sent it I noticed I sent the wrong link. The company was in transition to switch to a bigger platform and I promoted the link that won't be live for another week.

So I sent another email explaining that and gave the real URL...

It's funny because it was an honest mistake but people tend to overreact a little... I had one subscriber email me back and say "What not even an explanation" Well if he had actually read the freaken email I did explain it in detail..

LOL

Mike Hill

Thanks

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CarolinaInvestor

15 years ago

Well it is interesting... I sent out a bad link by mistake and received an incedible response of visitors due to the email correction. I said it's interesting - I wouldn't do it on purpose. Like I need to look like an idiot on purpose...