Do You Hate Selling And Promoting?

This thread will potentially tick a few people off but it's worth it if I can reach just a few people with the message. I was compelled to write this by a recent PM from an angry individual.

My hope is that a few experienced entrepreneurs will share their insights on this issue and we can end up with a good discussion.

This Is A Fairly Serious Problem For A Lot Of Struggling "Marketers"

I see a lot of people who claim to be marketers who...

• Become angry if they receive "too many promotions" from a newsletter.
• See upgrade offers on purchases they have made.
• Receive follow-up and add-on promotions after making a purchase.
• See a OTO when they login to their member account for the first time.
• Get ticked when they read sales letters with a lof of "Action"; bold text, highlights, testimonials, and "hype".

My concern is simple...

We Cannot Be What We Despise And Resent!

If someone hates selling and promoting, how on earth do they expect to sell a lot of things online???

I really see this as part of poverty complex. And it strikes a real chord with me because I used to have this problem in a big way.

I was trying to earn money online but I got really pissed when people had the nerve to try and sell me something. Ludicrous huh?

In my case I was fortunate. Gary Ambrose, who some of you may know of, saw a post I made in a forum, picked up the phone, and gave me a call. He gave me some real insight and pretty much told me if I really hated selling and passionate promotin I needed to find a new career because I was pretty unlikely to make any money as a marketer myself.

This makes such perfect sense but I couldn't see it until someone on the outside pointed it out to me.

If you honestly relate to my bullet list above and have an aversion to selling and marketing here's something to consider:

Do you get angry when you buy a laptop at Circuit City and they ask if you'd like a laptop bag or printer to go with that? Are you enraged when you find Best Buy flyers in your mailbox, or when your insurance agent offers you the upgrade on your life coverage?

Often people do not get mad in the above scenarios. But these same individuals feel online entreprenerus are bound by some bizarre "code of honor" and therefore should not make follow-up and backend offers to their customer base.

I'd like to hear what other successful marketers have to say on this. And I'd even like to hear from some readers who want to be marketers but get ticked off any time somebody else tries to sell them something.

Here's hoping this thread doesn't get buried under a ton of other topics and we can end up with a stimulating convo.

[jasonl70]

tim, i agree 100% with you.. there seems to be a ton of 'marketers' around here who hate being marketed, sold to, and promoted to. "Sales" seems to be a dirty word for a lot of people (or at least to their ego's).

Accept it or not, we are attempting to be sales professionals and promoters.

If I was looking to hire a promoter for my business, and they said "making as much money as possible from this promotion isn't everything", I would say "NEXT!"..

If I was hiring a sales person, and they said "it isn't only about making money", I would say "NEXT!"

That's like a coach saying 'winning isn't everything'.. maybe not for kid's teams, but we're talking the pro's here.

At the end of the day, People VOTE WITH THEIR WALLET.

[artwebster]

Hi, Tim,

While I agree with what you say, I also am in sympathy with many people who feel that the level of marketing is a little extreme.

There is, however, an aspect of internet marketing that has to be taken into account - FAR TOO MANY SELLERS ON THE INTERNET BREAK FAITH WITH THEIR CUSTOMERS.

In my years on the periphery of internet marketing I cannot count the number of times I have joined a mailing list, bought a product(s), learned to trust the marketer and then been presented (and sold) the proverbial heap of unmentionable.

My most recent experience of this has really knocked my faith in internet marketers clear out of the ball park because I really trusted a marketer from whom I had bought several good products. The last purchase, at $127 a little more than frivolous spending, was a product that simply did not function at any level and for which the support tickets might as well have been written in steam. No amount of effort in contacting this guy has produced a response.

Another aspect that you have to take in to account is also the sheer volume of identical emails you receive from all over the place. I like to read clever and well crafted sales presentations - but not 47 times!!!

[salamandar]

In part, I believe the problem is that, transitioning from non-marketer to marketer is similar to going from being an ordinary audience member and being a magician watching a magic show. When you are an audience member you are (usually) happy to watch, enjoy and applaud the sleight-of=hand. When you are one magician watching another, there is a temptation to be annoyed at the effrontery of another person "in your club" to try and trick you.

As a marketer, your general audience may be totally accepting of your marketing methods because they don't realize that there is a system being followed. Marketers know they are being subjected to a system and resent it.

Perhaps there should be some kind of code...

[stayhomedads]

Tim,

It's really funny how people got onto my mailing list by requesting a resource to teach them how to make money on the Internet, then immediately unsubscribe or send me an email about how there are too many promotions!

I mean, come on people!

Like you said, how can we expect to become what we despise?

I don't send out emails that say, Buy This Product, without giving content related to the product. The products I offer are usually related to how to solve problems or make life easier for Internet Marketers, so I don't get it.

If people want to make money on the Internet and learn from those who do, then they need to learn that they will have to PAY to learn.

Yeah, there ARE free things on the Internet about marketing, but the best resources and tools always cost.

It's just a funny fact of life.

Kinda like "Doctors make the worst patients."

Do Marketers make the worst customers?

Regards,
Charles

[PaulKlein]

I feel there are initial hesistancies from those beginning in the IM arena, because they feel slammed (or spammed) after signing up to lists to receive good information on getting started online.

I agree with your ideas, Tim, because to make it worthwhile online, you will have to invest of yourself in your products as well as in your sales copy in order to present your information to your audience, and help them make an informed decision on purchasing from you.

Whether we like it or not, we are all marketers from the cradle to the grave. Does no one remember trying to impress a friend in school, or impress a boss? How about for those who are married, even making a point to "sell" your positive qualities to your potential spouse is a form of marketing.

We need to get past the notion that we are sick of being sold to, when it is a better mindset to learn from what is presented to us and then use the better qualities to market our own ideas.

Keep up the great work Tim!

Paul

Originally Posted by jasonl70

If I was hiring a sales person, and they said "it isn't only about making money", I would say "NEXT!"

Exactly! This goes hand-in-hand with what I was pointing out as well.

A negative atittude towards money and people who have it is often present in the same people who hate selling and promotion. And again, it's just not possible for a person who has bad feelings toward money to have a lot of it.

Originally Posted by artwebster

There is, however, an aspect of internet marketing that has to be taken into account - FAR TOO MANY SELLERS ON THE INTERNET BREAK FAITH WITH THEIR CUSTOMERS.


Another aspect that you have to take in to account is also the sheer volume of identical emails you receive from all over the place.

I definitely agree that people who constantly sell their customers flash and no bang give marketing a bad taste for many people. It's unfortunate for sure.

And re: a ton of duplicate emails, such as with a big lanch...

I understand how this can be a PITA. Sure it's annoying from a cleaning your inbox perspective.

But as a marketer I'm happy to see a product owner is able to get that much support and momentum behind his or her launch. It's amazing to see and I hope I have a few launches in the future with the kind of backing Mike Filsaime gets when he rolls out a new product/service.

I was involved in a good launch last fall with a solid affiliate team. The site had a STRONG first month with all that help but I hope some day I can experience the kind of launch that results in those 47 duplicate emails! LOL

Art I'm sorry to hear about your problem getting support and/or a refund on a product you're not pleased with. That's a real shame - perhaps you can just do a chargeback directly through your card issuer.

Charles and Paul - good to see you guys in here! And thanks for your feedback.

[Justin Jordan]

I'm not sure people mind so much that those things are done so much as the tack given to them. Honestly, far too many lists send out daily emails that are nothing but promotions of some variety of another with little substance other than the thing they're promoting.

Likewise, some sites and marketers go overbaord on the upsells and the backend, becoming the online equivalent of a salesman following you around the store trying to sell you something when you're shopping.

And if I went to Staples and the cashier listed half a dozen products to try and sell me before I could check out, I'd probably shop somewhere else.

There's one list I recently got on where the promoter has been sending emails related to real world news events that have useful advice and, as crazy as it seems, doesn't try to sell me or send me somewhere every time I open one of his emails.

Which means, pretty vitally in my opinion, that I do open his emails, as opposed to other people who simply get deleted without being read. That guy, by not trying to sell me something everytime we 'interact' is about a hundred times more likely to sell me something than most of the people who send me emails.

But I don't know if I'm representative of the masses, you know? Because I have to think the brute force, hammer them with offers everyday approach must work or there'd be less people doing it.

[Preben Frenning]

I don't like being spammed by offers and nothing more by a marketer.
- But what I hate the most is when you purchase a medium-low priced product, simply for the upsell.

They never even mention it in the salesletter at all.

"Buy NOW! Only $17! Limited time offer!" Then you buy it and you find out that you "must have" a $67 product that will "never be shown to you again" exept all you need to do is usually bookmark the page domain.com/oto.html.

They say "it is possible" to do without it, but they make it clear to you that it will take you 10% of the time if you have it.

That's what I don't like.

- Preben

[jestershaw]

Wow, I can't believe I am one of "those" people. I hate the countless emails I get from 10 different people about the same awesomely new internet breakthrough. Maybe I should be studying the emails instead of mass deleting them. Great post...opened up my eyes.

Originally Posted by salamandar

In part, I believe the problem is that, transitioning from non-marketer to marketer is similar to going from being an ordinary audience member and being a magician watching a magic show. When you are an audience member you are (usually) happy to watch, enjoy and applaud the sleight-of=hand. When you are one magician watching another, there is a temptation to be annoyed at the effrontery of another person "in your club" to try and trick you.

As a marketer, your general audience may be totally accepting of your marketing methods because they don't realize that there is a system being followed. Marketers know they are being subjected to a system and resent it.

Perhaps there should be some kind of code...

Salamandar you make an interesting point about being on the inside and recognizing the tactics being used.

If a seller is trying to rip me off I definitely agree that I'd feel insulted. I may very well say to myself: "Who does this character think he's dealing with?" and so forth.

But if someone is making a legitimate promo I actually enjoy it. I don't see selling as trying to convince or trick anyone and in my own ventures I see myself as an "assistant buyer" (to quote Zig Ziglar) who wants to help people understand how my products and services will actually improve thier life.

I realize not every buyer will love what I give them. It would be a little naive' to think that.

But overall I view selling and marketing as a cooperative and win-win effort where all involved benefit, not as a marketer trying to get over on his or her customers.

Originally Posted by Justin Jordan

There's one list I recently got on where the promoter has been sending emails related to real world news events that have useful advice and, as crazy as it seems, doesn't try to sell me or send me somewhere every time I open one of his emails.

... And if I went to Staples and the cashier listed half a dozen products to try and sell me before I could check out, I'd probably shop somewhere else...

Which means, pretty vitally in my opinion, that I do open his emails, as opposed to other people who simply get deleted without being read. That guy, by not trying to sell me something everytime we 'interact' is about a hundred times more likely to sell me something than most of the people who send me emails.

That's a very solid point. I too enjoy it when someone puts a little more effort into their promos than to just send a link and an all caps pitch every time.

And sure I admit there are limits, such as with your Staples example. Nobody likes being absolutely hounded like that.

It seems desperate to really hound a prospect and I think we all react to desperation by wanting to be elsewhere. But I think before I call it hounding it literally has to be extreme like the over-eager Staples cashier.

Originally Posted by Preben Frenning

But what I hate the most is when you purchase a medium-low priced product, simply for the upsell.

They never even mention it in the salesletter at all.

"Buy NOW! Only $17! Limited time offer!" Then you buy it and you find out that you "must have" a $67 product that will "never be shown to you again" exept all you need to do is usually bookmark the page domain.com/oto.html.

They say "it is possible" to do without it, but they make it clear to you that it will take you 10% of the time if you have it.

That's what I don't like.

- Preben

I have mixed feelings here. I'm totally ok with being upsold and offered upgrades but it's also important to me that the front-end offer has real value.

The sales funnel, i.e. leading customers into bigger and more profitable purchases, is just a fact of smart business. But I would not slap my customers in the face by saying "ok the product you just bought won't really cut it - here's the one you really need!"

This is another good point. I hope I always highlight the additional value of the next offer while still maintaining the perceived value of the front-end purchase. I love OTOs and upsells but see them as legitimately optional.

[Chris Lockwood]

Tim, great post! I'm surprised I've never heard anyone else explain it this way (or realized it myself), but it makes sense.

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by salamandar

In part, I believe the problem is that, transitioning from non-marketer to marketer is similar to going from being an ordinary audience member and being a magician watching a magic show. When you are an audience member you are (usually) happy to watch, enjoy and applaud the sleight-of=hand. When you are one magician watching another, there is a temptation to be annoyed at the effrontery of another person "in your club" to try and trick you.

As a marketer, your general audience may be totally accepting of your marketing methods because they don't realize that there is a system being followed. Marketers know they are being subjected to a system and resent it.

Perhaps there should be some kind of code...

I was struggling to come up with these same words, and just deleted them in the end

[JohnMcCabe]

Tim, I've found myself resenting the efforts of certain marketers, names withheld to protect the guilty.

On examination, I don't mind being marketed to or sold to. What really starts the steam rising is being marketed or sold to badly.

As an example, I recently purchased the trial offer for a continuity program. Part of that trial was a "free coaching session" by phone. Knowing I would be talking to a sales rep, not a coach, I ignored that part of the offer. The trial itself didn't meet my expectations, so I canceled. End of story, right?

Wrong.

A few weeks later, I get a call asking if I'm ready to schedule my free coaching session. Without listening for my firm "NO", the caller said "Great, I'll transfer your call" and hooked me up with the sales rep, I mean Coach...

When told that I wasn't interested, the "coach" ignored that and said he was scheduling my free session for 2 o'clock the next afternoon. I answered with "whatever..." and the doorknob actually insisted that I write down his name and number so I could call him if he forgot to call me back...

Yeah, right.

At 2:15, my phone rang. Yup. Seems Doorknob remembered to call me. He tried to give me attitude because I hadn't called him back at the time he told me to. So I decided to have a little fun...

Hey, if you can't leave the party, you might as well dance, right?

Doorknob was getting more and more frustrated when I wouldn't follow the script.

Was I interested in making $3,000 per month within 90 days?

Sorry, can't afford the pay cut.

I could be making that much if I let them help me.

How much is this "help" going to cost me?

We'll go over that after I finish filling in this order form, OK?

Not OK. How much?

As little as $5,000 per month for our entry level coaching...

[If Doorknob reads this... Dude, I'm really sorry for laughing at you like that. Really...]

Dude, you want me to pay you $5k a month so I can be making $3k after 3 months? If I say no, I'm $2k ahead after the first month - if I made the $3k immediately...

What's the name on your credit card?

It isn't "Stupid", that's for sure. This isn't going to happen. I'm not buying, I don't care what it says on the script they gave you. Now, if you want to dance awhile longer, fine, but we aren't going home together. Understand?

[Dial tone]

A few days later, I get a call from a nice young gal wanting to schedule a "free coaching session" for [name withheld]

I told her the same thing I told Doorknob - we could dance if she liked, but I wasn't going home with her. She got, thanked me and moved on...

Given that experience, what do you think the odds are I will ever buy anything from [name withheld] again?

Another marketer likes to use autodialers. Fine, except that the dialer he uses won't take no for an answer. If you hang up before the end of the message, your phone rings again, and the message picks up where it left off, and there's no obvious way to get off the calling list.

The same guy buries me in emails, sometimes several times a day. These, I don't get upset over because I can choose to read them or not, and read the ones I choose to at a time of my choosing.

I find the autodialer disrespectful, the emails occasionally annoying but mainly harmless.

Too late to make a long story short, I think many people like me don't resent marketing, they resent bad marketing disrespect, and insults to their intelligence...

[Side note: I'm really glad to see so many people with one or two digit post counts jumping in and participating. Thank you.]

[Chris Lockwood]

John, I'm no fan of aggressive telemarketing or sales calls disguised as coaching, but geez, don't indict the whole industry because a few people do this!

If you knew what was coming in advance, why give them your phone number at all? Or when they call, why not block their number or just hang up on them?

I've only sat through one call like that, years ago when I didn't know better. But I don't blame everyone who sells info products or even everyone who markets on the phone, just because some telemarketers are scumbags. They don't care if you get pissed at the marketer whose stuff they are pushing.

[Derek S]

Spot on!

I cant stand so called "marketers" complaining about methods they personally never tested. To me if I read your post about how annoying exit pop ups and virtual sales reps are, I dont care what you are selling or claiming in your signature... you are an immature.

Simply put - If you cant stand up/back-end sells, news letters or one time offers than chances are you are not going to be using those methods when selling to others. If your not using those methods than you are really not marketing on the internet, or atleast to your full potential.

All to often people pose as experienced marketers on this forum by just regurgitating things they have read and mentally agreed with in the past... but NOT providing us information they discovered on their own.

Real marketers who are walking the walk will never leave things to personal opinion.
It comes down to what boosts conversions and what doesn't.


Cheers,

[Preben Frenning]

Tim, I totally agree with you about what you said to my post.

What I really meant, was products you get "almost for free", which is a teaser product. It IS possbile to get te results from the salespage, but you'll need the OTO. I can't stand those products...
However, OTO's related to the main products, as well as it might even increase the initial value of if NOT MENTIONED ON THE SALESPAGE then I truly enjoy them.

I bookmark the OTO page, try the product, and buy it later. Or simply purchase immediately if it looks good enough.

That was what I meant =P
So I have nothing against regular OTO's.

- Preben

[Marc Lindsay]

Go listen or read anything by.

Joe Girard

Joe Girard - World's Greatest Salesperson, Best Selling Author, Lecturer and Motivational Speaker

This guy is very nice to listen too :P

Just brilliant

Thanks
Marc

[rapidscc]

Yeah I agree, real marketers won't take it too personally if they receive such offers.

Also you shouldn't take it personally also if some people will react negatively on your offer. You're a marketer you should understand that.

To some its good, to others its not. We should not be affected by this. Too much.

An angry customer might bother us one minute and another bring us $$$ right after. That's marketing.

We should always remember though that what we do is what makes industries move.

WE ARE THE MOVERS OF THE INDUSTRY.

Well atleast most of you are :-)

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Given that experience, what do you think the odds are I will ever buy anything from [name withheld] again?

Another marketer likes to use autodialers. Fine, except that the dialer he uses won't take no for an answer. If you hang up before the end of the message, your phone rings again, and the message picks up where it left off, and there's no obvious way to get off the calling list.

The same guy buries me in emails, sometimes several times a day. These, I don't get upset over because I can choose to read them or not, and read the ones I choose to at a time of my choosing.

I find the autodialer disrespectful, the emails occasionally annoying but mainly harmless.

Too late to make a long story short, I think many people like me don't resent marketing, they resent bad marketing disrespect, and insults to their intelligence...

[Side note: I'm really glad to see so many people with one or two digit post counts jumping in and participating. Thank you.]

Wow that's awful man. I too am annoyed by the kind of telemarketing you just described and I guess in large part because you try to say "No thanks I'm already doing pretty well" and they just keep on cruising.

Maybe if they would react with some sort of advanced program pitch instead of staying right on track with their "sell the newbie" pitch I'd find their offer more interesting. But clearly these outfits are of the opinion that nobody out here is making it, which frankly makes me question the value of their material. (If they don't think anyone is making good with IM how effective can their training really be?)

This could just be my ego reaction but there ya go.

And good point about respect. There's a big difference in assertive marketing and flat our disregard.

An autodialer that calls right back and picks up where it left off??? That's going past my personal line - I wouldn't do that one.

[netkickstart]

Preben took the words out of my mouth. A major difference between your example of Circuit City asking about cables and the on-line marketer's toolbox, is the former is usually a downsell, whereas with internet marketing it's often an "essential" upsell to make the front-end worth anything. But, you've already addressed the issue, namely, that it's important the initial product is quality and can stand alone.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

John, I'm no fan of aggressive telemarketing or sales calls disguised as coaching, but geez, don't indict the whole industry because a few people do this!

If you knew what was coming in advance, why give them your phone number at all? Or when they call, why not block their number or just hang up on them?

I've only sat through one call like that, years ago when I didn't know better. But I don't blame everyone who sells info products or even everyone who markets on the phone, just because some telemarketers are scumbags. They don't care if you get pissed at the marketer whose stuff they are pushing.

Chris, I wasn't trying to indict a whole industry. I was trying to illustrate an incident that could lead people down a road that we don't want them to go down. I know the difference between aggressive marketing done well and poorly, as I've experienced both.

I gave the phone number as it was required on the order form to process my credit card. Paypal wasn't an option.

I tried to ignore the call, first by never making the call to schedule the coaching session/sales call, then by not calling when I was ordered to. After the initial contact, I had a feeling that ignoring them was not an option, kind of like that red rash you get from ignoring fire ants.

I didn't even resent that the call came. What I resented was one incompetent boob who wouldn't listen. So I yanked his chain some.

And I was very polite to the second caller, who gave off the vibe that she was listening and respected what I had to say. No resentment or indictment of her at all.

I've been on other "coaching calls" where, even though I didn't end up buying the program, I felt like my time had not been wasted.

Didn't mean to get my Irish up when I started that post...

[dpepper]

Maybe if they stop referring to us as cows some folks wouldn't get offended. There's a difference in marketers, some really do offer good advice and don't try to sell you a new product in every email.

I've have other marketers send me an email everyday with yet another "buy this it's the greatest product". Honestly they don't care if you opt out and stop buying, they want you off their list anyway once you stop producing milk. Read their books they will tell you to do the same thing.

So I guess we need to become farmers or just keep mooing!

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by dpepper

Maybe if they stop referring to us as cows

They might refer people to cows because they use the "cattle effect" to get more sales.

Originally Posted by dpepper

Maybe if they stop referring to us as cows some folks wouldn't get offended. There's a difference in marketers, some really do offer good advice and don't try to sell you a new product in every email.

I've have other marketers send me an email everyday with yet another "buy this it's the greatest product". Honestly they don't care if you opt out and stop buying, they want you off their list anyway once you stop producing milk. Read their books they will tell you to do the same thing.

So I guess we need to become farmers or just keep mooing!

Another good point. I think it's critical to have the win-win mindset when offering products to my list.

Originally Posted by rapidscc

Also you shouldn't take it personally also if some people will react negatively on your offer. You're a marketer you should understand that.

You're right. It is important to not take things personally on that level.

I need to keep working in that regard becasue when someone rips me a new one for trying to do what I think is helpful it still stings. A few dozen more times should harden my skin.

In fact recently when asked honestly by a workshop participant about buying another product I told him he should hold off on that purchase. I made it clear that telling people not to buy my stuff was not a standard practice, but in his case (he had just bought a number of good info products from me within a week's time) I felt he should take some time to absorb what he already had stockpiled before investing in something new.

When I started this thread I was thinking solely about the people out there who freak out and get ticked off when they see an upgrade offer, etc. But some interesting points on both sides of the issue are starting to surface.

I guess I should point out that I'm not opposed to leveraging the "herd mentality". It would be remiss of me not take advantage of the fact that we, as a people, do sometimes think like a herd.

But I always want to provide real value and substance that will benefit the buyers who take the time to use what I give them, in IM or any other market.

I think we all have to find our specific line and decide where and how far we will go with all this marketing and promoting. What is wrong for others might not be for me and vice versa.

[Naqoyqatsi]

I hope I can be successful and sell the way I like to be sold--soft. If I have to learn to hardsell to succeed online, I'll admit that I don't think I can do this.

[rossl58]

I've done OK with semi-soft sell. Just OK, though, to be frank. I'm probably not "monetizing my list" very well at all.

I've always told my Midnight Marketer News subscribers that I will earn the right to send them an ad, meaning that I'll give them a solid issue of the e-zine first. In other words, lots of content, then maybe a solo mailer after.

I've heard one well-known marketer suggest at a seminar that you should mail ads to your list three or four times a week. I think one guy misheard that; he sends me three to four a day. :-)

My delete button works, so it doesn't really annoy me a whole lot. In fact, I'm rather impressed by his industriousness, if nothing else. But for most people I'm guessing he's crossed over the line of appropriate behavior.

== Ross ==

[johnedgley]

Thanks, Tim, I just realised that whilst I've often thought of myself as a master procrastinator and major sufferer of information overload, that is probably in and of itself procrastination - the simple truth is I hate internet marketing - no, I hate all marketing, Staples included!

I guess there's just no hope.....

Originally Posted by rossl58

I've always told my Midnight Marketer News subscribers that I will earn the right to send them an ad, meaning that I'll give them a solid issue of the e-zine first. In other words, lots of content, then maybe a solo mailer after.

I've heard one well-known marketer suggest at a seminar that you should mail ads to your list three or four times a week. I think one guy misheard that; he sends me three to four a day. :-)

That's interesting. I guess if a person has the confidence to go ahead and send multiple emails out each day it could work just fine.

I mail my lists frequently but not daily in most cases. I think conditioning is a big factor here as well - like if your list is used to once weekly and you suddenly go to a daily mailing I wonder if that would shock them out of a responsive state?

All this stuff probably needs to be tested by the individual marketer but I have found my subscribers are less likely to click a link that leads them to a blog post or article than they are to click on over to a sales page. I've talked to other email marketers who say the opposite is true so it's safe to say there is a whole range of dynamics in place here.

Originally Posted by Naqoyqatsi

I hope I can be successful and sell the way I like to be sold--soft. If I have to learn to hardsell to succeed online, I'll admit that I don't think I can do this.

I'm not a sales expert by any stretch but I really believe there's a style for everyone. I know for a fact there are many different ways to make an offer and promote a product, and I think you can find a method/style that fits who you are.

Originally Posted by johnedgley

Thanks, Tim, I just realised that whilst I've often thought of myself as a master procrastinator and major sufferer of information overload, that is probably in and of itself procrastination - the simple truth is I hate internet marketing - no, I hate all marketing, Staples included!

I guess there's just no hope.....

Man I think there's always hope! First of all you might not always feel the way you do right now about promotion and selling.

Even if you do find out you hate selling and want no part of it you can probably find a way to make good money.

In many cases you can find other people to tackle the selling for you. Nothing says you must remain a one-man show and nothing even says you absolutely must make your fortune with Internet marketing.

If you weren't an entrepreneur at heart you wouldn't be here in the first place.

[napoleonfirst]

No, you just need to have the right tools like Trackboost, WebCeo, Article Marketer, etc.

[pmore]

Even if you do find out you hate selling and want no part of it you can probably find a way to make good money.

In many cases you can find other people to tackle the selling for you. Nothing says you must remain a one-man show and nothing even says you absolutely must make your fortune with Internet marketing.

If you weren't an entrepreneur at heart you wouldn't be here in the first place.

This is so true! We don't need to master everything, just be understanding of the process and take action in some way, shape or form!

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by dpepper

Maybe if they stop referring to us as cows some folks wouldn't get offended.

How many people do that? I don't see many calling people cows, but what is so bad about a cow?

Is there a less offensive animal they could call you?

[Preben Frenning]

Cows are sacred in India, so that would actually be a compliment to some, but anyways...

I think too many people reading this thread thinks posters here hate marketers and OTO's in general. If you are - READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!
Damnit, all I'm saying is that there are marketers crossing the line.
I don't care how you are promoting, but doesn't everyone think autodialers are way over the line?!?

And we don't hate OTO's or promo emails. I actually enjoy them some times.
But there are several marketers who ONLY send out promo. SOME don't even start out providing good content. SOME. - Not all.
There are many marketers who have OTO's related to their product, provide great content for free even, as well as being honest. Both in products, emails and blogs.

And as a matter of fact, I see more and more of them. - The good ones.
Perhaps the old-school ways of hype and deception aren't working as well anymore?

[Sandor Verebi]

Hey Fellows,

I agree with Tim.

In this field, I've good and bad experience too, years after. But I don't pointed them out here, because it isn't my task to act as a crying child, there is no sense in that. What I'm saying is only my private opinion.

The peoples aren't alike (thanks to God). They respond to the things diversely, including the selling offers. Absurdity to think you are able to sell things to everybody. This is humanly totally understandable, not necessary to explain it.

It is necessary to take notice of the fact that it will not be going automatically if you want to sell something and earn some money, you have to look up the customer and do the best possible offer. Period.

But, this may not be a problem for the good marketer. The good marketer makes his thing firmly, some gentle pressure fits into it. But don't force something on somebody if he/she isn't interested in. Handle your audience the way you expect them to handle you.

You can build a decent income and credibility in IM, if you give useful stuff to your audience, keeping the quality of your work permanently. And don't forgot that you need to give first, then you could to expect back.

Somebody mentioned Joe Girard above. I've read his books. He has a list of 13 rules to success. You can find them on his blog. He is good enough for me to follow them.

This is my 0,02. Sorry, I'm going to make some useful.

Regards,

Sandor
_____________
"The richness comes on a place first, than the work; in the dictionary."V.Sasson

[TimothyW]

I guess great Tim's think alike!

My name's Tim too -- and I agree with you.

In fact here are two axioms I invented to describe what you are saying...

"You cannot ATTAIN what you DISDAIN."

and

"You can't be the type of person who SELLS stuff, if you're not the kind of person who BUYS stuff."

The problem with the sales game is, if you do it right it also involves REJECTION. I think a lot of IMers got into the IM game to AVOID rejection. I won't get into why I think that's so here, because last time I did, I got dumped on pretty severely. This is the wrong forum to be pointing out the LIMITATIONS + glaring blind spots of IMing.

-- Tim W.

PS: Dan Kennedy says, "How DARE you throw away your junk mail! -- Those companies have spent millions of $$ figuring out what to send you in that envelope -- it's the best education you can get!"

[BIG Mike]

OK, I’ll admit that I hate the marketing part of my own business. I’d much rather use the time to spend on development, but since my buddy Diego suddenly “No Habla Englez” when the subject comes up, I get stuck with it. Fortunately, I’m good enough at it to get by on.

I also don’t mind being marketed to – it’s educational, sometimes amusing and gives you a benchmark on the real abilities of various marketers. As a potential customer though, I’ll share with you why I think most email offers and other promotions just don’t garner my interest.

It’s because they almost never offer me something I want or need. The irony is, I’ve got cash in hand and am willing buy – but they’re not pushing the right buttons.

It seems to me that everyone targets specific niches based on general interest and the demographics stop there. I can’t recall the last time someone talked about segregating a list by age, income, experience, etc., to really target specific segments within the niche for converting more effectively. Instead, it seems like it’s just a fishing expedition to see who’s biting.

There is a lot more to the art and science of marketing than just blasting 2 or 3 emails a day out to your entire list or doing 27 OTO’s after every offer. That’s not marketing to me – that’s the equivalent of someone approaching your car at a stop light and trying to sell you flowers or whatever.

And I’m not suggesting that those fishing expeditions aren’t profitable, but I’d bet my last dollar that those doing it are still leaving a lot more money on the table.

It could be that I’m just over-analyzing my own list too much, but here’s an example. Say you’re promoting a script to your list. You know from experience that 125 customers have had difficulty in the past with installation and configuration. They might be reluctant to buy because of their lack of technical skills. So for those folks, you include a special, personalized bonus of a free installation or even a reasonable installation fee.

Maybe you’ve got 200 customers who all have an interest in Adsense. Within that group, you know 50 do blackhat stuff, 100 use XsitePro and the remainder outsource it all. If you’ve got a product targeted at the group, add personalized up sells, down sells, cross sells targeting the smaller segments within the group as well.

Being in IM makes this sort of thing a hell of a lot easier to do, but it does take understanding your market. After all, isn’t that one of the golden rules?

I suspect the reason why newer marketers bitch about other’s marketing efforts is that they sense this as well compared to what they’re used to offline.

In any event, if you’re going to be in IM, then it would help to actually learn about marketing.

[Kurt]

Hey Tim and All...

I'll be the contrarian and say I don't buy the premise. If I don't like an aspect of IM, I don't use it.

I'm "Kurt" first, an IM second.

People say you can't be yourself...But I like to bring up JC Penney a lot. JC was probably a much better marketer than anyone on this thread. Yet, he wouldn't break his principles just to make a few extra bucks.

Here's two examples:

- Back in the day, you went to a general store and had to barter the best price for each and every item. JC didn't like this and decided he would sell his merchandise for the very lowest price he could and still make a profit. This is now how EVERY store in the US works.

- After he went public and had stock holders, there was a board meeting to vote on creating a JC Penny credit card. The vote was 50-1 in favor of the credit card, with JC himself being the only person opposed.

JC said that he knew that issuing a store credit card would increase profits, but he didn't want to be resposible for folks getting into debt and he didn't want to profit off of this.

The point is, you can make money and not have to do things everyone else says you "have to" do. And there are very succesful people that make a lot of money that do things there own way and don't follow the heard.

Some of us don't do IM to make as much as we can. Personally, I do IM so I can live the life I want to live, which means having a lot of "free time", and I don't need a lot of money to do so. If I make a little less money, so be it. I've supported myself for 12 years online and have done tons of things "wrong", but I'm still here.

"You cannot ATTAIN what you DISDAIN."

Sorry, but I don't understand this...You seem to have transposed different things.

I disdain over-eager marketing. What I want to attain is money and free time. To me, they are not the same thing.

Originally Posted by -- TW

"You cannot ATTAIN what you DISDAIN."

-- Tim W.

I like it!

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]OK, I’ll admit that I hate the marketing part of my own business. I’d much rather use the time to spend on developmentThere is a lot more to the art and science of marketing than just blasting 2 or 3 emails a day out to your entire list or doing 27 OTO’s after every offer. That’s not marketing to me – that’s the equivalent of someone approaching your car at a stop light and trying to sell you flowers or whatever.


And I’m not suggesting that those fishing expeditions aren’t profitable, but I’d bet my last dollar that those doing it are still leaving a lot more money on the table.


Maybe you’ve got 200 customers who all have an interest in Adsense. Within that group, you know 50 do blackhat stuff, 100 use XsitePro and the remainder outsource it all. If you’ve got a product targeted at the group, add personalized up sells, down sells, cross sells targeting the smaller segments within the group as well.

Being in IM makes this sort of thing a hell of a lot easier to do, but it does take understanding your market. After all, isn’t that one of the golden rules?

In any event, if you’re going to be in IM, then it would help to actually learn about marketing.

To be 100% honest I'm foremost a writer. I continue to learn marketing so I can sell the products I create.

I think ideally - in the future - I'll have help on the marketing front and be able to spend more time just writing and creating.

And such great points about segmenting the lists up. I'm starting to do this on some level; creating sublists and making notes about the specifics in each group. I believe it will take me a little while to really refine this process but as you said it will mean far greater profit long-term.

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hey Tim and All...

I'll be the contrarian and say I don't buy the premise. If I don't like an aspect of IM, I don't use it.

I'm "Kurt" first, an IM second.

Yeah I agree with you. In one of my replies above I said if someone really just flat out hates selling they can always find other ways to make it.

What I was really getting at when I started this thread was not to suggest that people must conform and all become sales types. My main point was the people who just get pissed every time they see a follow-up offer and totally go on about how "it's all hype" are not that likely to make good money in a marketing field.

[dpepper]

Chris,

The reason I say that is I've read many a book or report calling mailing lists recipients "cash cows" I didn't mean it in a negative way. You may have also heard the expression "a license to print money" by having a mailing list or "the money is in the list".

If you balance between marketing and offering helpful advice (not pitching a product constantly) more folks might stay on your list longer therefore you will still have the opportunity to make money long term.

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by dpepper

The reason I say that is I've read many a book or report calling mailing lists recipients "cash cows" I didn't mean it in a negative way. You may have also heard the expression "a license to print money" by having a mailing list or "the money is in the list".

The term "cash cow" does not refer the the customers. It refers to the product or the business:
Cash cow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia