Death of the Yellow Pages!! - Well not yet.

[jimbo3891]

I hope this is the correct place to start a thread on this. I've commented a lot here, but never started a thread, so if it's incorrect, please forgive me and help me correct it.

In hiring someone to do some offline marketing in another town for us, that person just shot me a link to something that I found pretty interesting. Here's the link to an article posted on WSB Radio (an Atlanta Radio network):
No Phone Book Delivery? - WSB News on wsbradio.com

If you note, in the next to last paragraph they state, "In its request to the PSC, the company cites technological advances like Caller ID, wireless devices that store numbers and the Internet for not needing the books anymore." HMMMM, do you offline marketers find it as interesting as I do that they'll admit that they no longer need the white pages because of the internet while they sell harder than ever the value of the Yellow Pages. Sorry if you don't agree, but I found this extremely telling of the future of the Yellow Pages.

Plus, you can bet that I'll "spin" this a hundred ways as I approach new businesses and use it to confirm to existing customers that they're doing the right thing by taking their marketing away from the Yellow Pages.

I thought I'd share this link with everyone so that maybe you can get some value from it.

Gather more profits...

[MichaelHiles]

Neilsen released a survey back in February that showed 80%+ went to the internet FIRST when looking for information about a local business vs. 57% to the Yellow Pages. The Yellow Pages has slipped over the past 2 years and the search engines grew.

[Jason_V]

As a former yellow page salesperson I have a lot of insight into this issue.

The thing is, phone book companies always printed the "white pages" more as a convenience for people, but they really didn't like them. They really only used the white pages as an excuse to get their yellow pages in front of people.

Think of the white pages as good quality free information to your list with an offer to your own or an affiliate product tacked on at the end of the message.

The problem is it's quite expensive to print the white pages especially in major metropolitan cities where you have a lot of people.

Like I said, the reality is the only purpose the white pages served was to get the yellow pages in front of consumers. It seems that AT&T has realized that they can make more profit by cutting out the white pages and strictly sending people yellow pages.

Sticking with an IM example. This would be like the marketer who was outsourcing for his free content to send to his list, would think to himself: "This free content is costing me money, but I'm making money by tacking on links to my own product or affiliate products at the end of the message. However, if I just kept sending my list nothing but product recommendations I would save myself money on outsourcing costs and increase my bottom line profits."

When I was selling yellow page advertising, people would often tell me "Oh, I don't need yellow page advertising, everyone uses the internet." As I would often reply: "So if your pipes burst at 2 a.m. you're going to go to your computer, wait for it to boot up, do a search engine search, and waste time trying to find a 24 hour plumber, while water is spraying everywhere?"

This usually made the point. People will still resort to looking in the yellow pages for products or services, even with easy access to internet.

Don't be fooled into thinking just because they don't want to publish the white pages, it's the death of the phone books. They just want to cut costs and concentrate on their real cash cow, the yellow page advertisers. Don't forget most of them put their yellow pages directly online now too.

[Jagged]

Originally Posted by Jason_V

When I was selling yellow page advertising, people would often tell me "Oh, I don't need yellow page advertising, everyone uses the internet." As I would often reply: "So if your pipes burst at 2 a.m. you're going to go to your computer, wait for it to boot up, do a search engine search, and waste time trying to find a 24 hour plumber, while water is spraying everywhere?"

As a homeowner, one needs to plan for these type of emergencies in advance of an actual emergency....I have phone numbers of 3 - 24 hr emegency plumbers, as well as every other service contractor a homeowner could think of, 24 hr stores, even 24 hr veterinarians conveniently on speed dial....

No, I wouldn't wait for the computer to boot-up...but I also wouldn't waste time searching for the phone book...which I have in use as a door stop someplace in my house...lol

Phone books (white or yellow) are a waste of time, energy & advertising dollars.

Thanks for the article James. I too will be adding it to my offline arsenal bag of tricks...

Ken

edit: here's a link referencing the nielson article that Michael was talking about...another good article that I use to show offline clients...
?Great Divide? Separates Small Biz, Online Consumers

[Jason_V]

Originally Posted by Jagged

As a homeowner, one needs to plan for these type of emergencies in advance of an actual emergency....I have phone numbers of 3 - 24 hr emegency plumbers, as well as every other service contractor a homeowner could think of, 24 hr stores, even 24 hr veterinarians conveniently on speed dial....

No, I wouldn't wait for the computer to boot-up...but I also wouldn't waste time searching for the phone book...which I have in use as a door stop someplace in my house...lol.

Ken

Just because you're smart enough to think that far ahead in advance, doesn't mean most other people are .

Yellow Pages still have their place. In the U.S. 75% of the population are internet users. There's still 25% of the US population who doesn't use the internet. North America Internet Usage Statistics, Population and Telecommunications Reports A smart business owner will take advantage of every medium they have access to in order to get their name out there.

As I said, they still publish their yellow pages online too.

[Lawrh]

A common problem is people projecting their own reality on to others. It wouldn't hurt to review this thread -

10++ Lessons Learned Outside Of The "Make Money Online" Niche


There are literally millions of people who cannot find a local plumber online, heck, judging by the surprise and awe when told a new Google technique, many Warriors don't really know how to use search engines effectively. It's a fallacy to believe everyone uses technology the way we do. Always assume the lowest common denominator and ignore the tech pundits.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by Jason_V

Don't be fooled into thinking just because they don't want to publish the white pages, it's the death of the phone books. They just want to cut costs and concentrate on their real cash cow, the yellow page advertisers. Don't forget most of them put their yellow pages directly online now too.

That wasn't really my point - it was just a really neat title I thought. My point was that they are admitting that the internet is a great place to look up phone numbers. Well, if it's good for the white pages, it's equally good for looking up numbers of businesses.

Originally Posted by Jason_V

This usually made the point. People will still resort to looking in the yellow pages for products or services, even with easy access to internet.

This is definitely an "age issue" thing. I've asked every teenager that I come in contact with (and there are a lot of them because I am the father of one) and they all don't even know how to use the YP - most less actually pick one up to use them. Most respond that they'll just "Google it" or look it up on their iPhone.

Yes, the YP is not dead yet, but it's definitely on life support. If it weren't, the YP reps in our area wouldn't be trying as hard as they are to extract additional funds from their customers. I've not spoken to a single business owner yet that hasn't already DECREASED his YP exposure for the next renewal. Many had already decreased it last year.

I agree YP may never die because there are certain businesses that should be there, but usage of them is definitely on the decline. Consumers are changing the way in which they find offline businesses and those offline businesses MUST change the way they are found to remain in the running for the business.

As for powering up the computer to find a plumber at 2AM - that wouldn't be an issue in my house. There are four computers in my house - all on 24/7 and I can find it online BEFORE I can even find my YP book. If a gun were held to my head right now with a question as to where my YP was, I would have to say, "Just shoot me" because I couldn't tell you.

Plus, in our town, we get four different YP books - and I throw ALL of them out. I also find that most business owners don't know which one(s) to advertise in because they're not sure which one people will be picking up. On a side note, this is one place that I think competition has been bad for the consumer.

As a consumer, which is more important to me - WP or YP? Definitely WP. But only by a slight margin as long as I have access to Switchboard.com. Of course, I'm probably the exception rather than the rule - although studies are starting to show that I am fast becoming a part of the majority.

As someone that works in the offline market, my objective is to get as many people to reduce their YP exposure to a minimum as possible. I tell all my clients that they should maintain a line listing (maybe bold), but nothing more. They can use their web site to tell soooooo much more about their business and get listed in multiple categories without all the additional costs of the YP.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by Jason_V

As I said, they still publish their yellow pages online too.

And have you tried to find anything using the online YP? I have and "frustrating" is the nicest word I can use for it. "Worthless" is a much better word. Google is still the leader (followed by bing) in delivering the info people are looking for. With both Google and bing going "toe to toe" to deliver better content on local search, it can only get better.

I'm not saying that businesses should completely abandon YP, but they can definitely reduce their current expenditures. The change in HOW people look for local businesses has already started (actually it started about five years ago - just wish I had been working the offline market then) and those businesses that don't change with it will find themselves paying more and more for exposure to a smaller and smaller market.

True, the YP companies are even providing web sites to their advertisers, but they're not marketing web sites. A great looking web site doesn't necessarily market the company well. A great marketing web site can increase sales AND increase customer loyalty and retention. Which would most businesses want to have? A great looking web site or a revenue generation web site? Of course, they would be satisfied with even an UGLY web site if it produced income for the bottom line, increased customer loyalty, and increased introductions to new people. Using the power of the internet, businesses can do all three of these and constantly tweak and modify to potentially increase any results they get. They can split test, test market, test pricing, test sales, and numerous other things that we do with online marketing all the time. NONE of these can be accomplished with a static YP ad that is established in July for publication in December.

All print media suffers from similar pitfalls. I spoke with a customer a few weeks ago that had purchased an ad in the Sunday paper a couple of years back. It was for a FREE HVAC inspection. The paper goofed the ad and published it for a FREE HVAC service. He saw the ad on Sunday morning, sweated it until he could get in touch with someone at the paper on Monday, and they offered to reprint the ad for free. He just canceled the ad, but expected to have to deliver on a boatload of free service calls. Guess how many calls he got asking for the service? NONE. NOT ONE. He said he couldn't even give his service away. Why? Because print media is primarily ignored unless someone is actually looking for that service. The internet allows businesses to reach those customers looking for a business's service AT THE TIME they are looking for the service. Timing is everything in business.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by Jason_V

In the U.S. 75% of the population are internet users. There's still 25% of the US population who doesn't use the internet. North America Internet Usage Statistics, Population and Telecommunications Reports

Great article there. What I find most "telling" there is that usage is UP by 138.3% in the US from 2000 to 2008. Sounds like a bit of a trend there. I wonder if this takes into account iPhones and other Smart Phones, GPS Devices like Garmin and TomTom (they have local search as well), and all the other ways that people access information online. Having the power of the internet in the palm of your hand is definitely going to change the way the world operates in the coming years. Still a great article though and it will be added to my arsenal of "stuff" that I show business owners.

[NTN]

The Yellow Pages is great for marketing to people over 55, like in AZ. Most seniors don't have computers.

If I were in some parts of AZ and FL I would increase my YP budget and not waste money on the Internet.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by Lawrh

A common problem is people projecting their own reality on to others. It wouldn't hurt to review this thread -

10++ Lessons Learned Outside Of The "Make Money Online" Niche


There are literally millions of people who cannot find a local plumber online, heck, judging by the surprise and awe when told a new Google technique, many Warriors don't really know how to use search engines effectively. It's a fallacy to believe everyone uses technology the way we do. Always assume the lowest common denominator and ignore the tech pundits.

Thanks for the reference to this posting. These are things that I had already committed to remind myself of DAILY because my customers DON'T understand what I do - that's why they hire me.

I remind myself not to use the term "autoresponder" - almost jokingly, I use the term "automatic email sender outer" or "push button email marketing tool", or something else that is very simple, but very descriptive.

We've had to take the jargon of our world and convert it to descriptive phrases that business owners can understand. My background is electronics engineering AND investment and insurance sales (yeah, what a combination)...I've had successful careers in both of those fields (just not at the same time). I was successful in each because I could take the language of the trade and translate it to something that people not in the trade could understand.

We here - all Warriors - understand the terms. But, our customers (if we work the offline market especially) don't work this market. My customers are vets, barbers, restaurateurs, car dealers, real estate agents and the like. They are experts in their field, but when it comes to internet marketing - they are pretty much clueless. If they weren't, they wouldn't need me. But, that's why they hire me - they don't know anything about it and they don't have the time, nor inclination to learn it.

Thanks again for this thread; I'm going to print the 10++ things and hang them above my computer in my office. Good points to remember. As I said, I've already been doing this, but a good printed reminder will definitely help me be more diligent.

As for the tech pundits - they are generally the maturing teens that will be the adults of tomorrow. The tide is shifting and businesses must shift with it or be left to market to a smaller and smaller group.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by NTN

The Yellow Pages is great for marketing to people over 55, like in AZ. Most seniors don't have computers.

If I were in some parts of AZ and FL I would increase my YP budget and not waste money on the Internet.

You've got it!!! The under 55 market (I usually tell business owners the under 50 market, but I like 55 even better) is the market for the internet. But, I've actually been surprised at how many over 55 actually use computers a great deal. A much smaller percentage I'm certain, but a growing percentage none the less.

Like you, I would have to seriously do some research if I were trying to market to offline businesses in certain markets to determine if the search volume were there to warrant even getting into it. But that would be true of any type of marketing - study the demographic to see if the market is viable.

I still get a chuckle every time I see an older gentleman pull a cell phone out of his bib overalls pocket (yes, they still wear those here in Georgia) and begin chatting away with someone. It just proves to me that technology is impacting people of all ages and many people are embracing it.

[Tonytsports]

Yellow Pages online is a great resource for home repairs in my area.

Its alive online.

[NTN]

Here is what 99% of all IMers and marketing people don't get.

All Media is good, there is no such thing as BAD media. You must test "IT."

If you can get at least a 1-1 return on any Media then do it. Your job as a business owner is to "make a sale to get a Customer' not the reverse. You will make a Killing working repeat business and referrals. You can also make a killing if you lose money on the Initial Acquisition cost and work the back end.

All media is good, test it.

Originally Posted by jimbo3891

You've got it!!! The under 55 market (I usually tell business owners the under 50 market, but I like 55 even better) is the market for the internet. But, I've actually been surprised at how many over 55 actually use computers a great deal. A much smaller percentage I'm certain, but a growing percentage none the less.

Like you, I would have to seriously do some research if I were trying to market to offline businesses in certain markets to determine if the search volume were there to warrant even getting into it. But that would be true of any type of marketing - study the demographic to see if the market is viable.

I still get a chuckle every time I see an older gentleman pull a cell phone out of his bib overalls pocket (yes, they still wear those here in Georgia) and begin chatting away with someone. It just proves to me that technology is impacting people of all ages and many people are embracing it.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by Tonytsports

Yellow Pages online is a great resource for home repairs in my area.

Its alive online.

Where are you Tony? Here it's pretty much worthless.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by NTN

Here is what 99% of all IMers and marketing people don't get.

All Media is good, there is no such thing as BAD media. You must test "IT."

If you can get at least a 1-1 return on any Media then do it. Your job as a business owner is to "make a sale to get a Customer' not the reverse. You will make a Killing working repeat business and referrals. You can also make a killing if you lose money on the Initial Acquisition cost and work the back end.

All media is good, test it.

This I would definitely agree with. TEST whatever you do. That's another reason why I don't care for the YP - the test cycle is too long. Other media has a much shorter test cycle. IM has the shortest test cycle as we can change in moments.

Most of my business owners would not be satisfied with a 1 to 1 return - that's just breaking even. But, you are correct, the long term value of that acquired client is definitely worth the initial cost - otherwise, you need to reassess your marketing. Getting a new customer is great, but businesses are in business to make money and the only way to make money in the long run is to make money in the short term to survive to make money in the long run.

Not sure if I agree that there is NO BAD media. There's definitely media that is not appropriate for a particular business. For example, a gentleman's magazine would not expect to get results advertising in a women's magazine or on a women's TV network. Maybe you wouldn't call that BAD media - but it's definitely not the proper media for the business.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Jason_V

When I was selling yellow page advertising, people would often tell me "Oh, I don't need yellow page advertising, everyone uses the internet." As I would often reply: "So if your pipes burst at 2 a.m. you're going to go to your computer, wait for it to boot up, do a search engine search, and waste time trying to find a 24 hour plumber, while water is spraying everywhere?"

Nowadays, lots of people have Google right on their cell phones. No need to boot up the computer (which some people always leave on anyway) or to flip through the yellow pages. Just grab your phone, go to Google, find a plumber and call.

Yellow Pages may still be useful for some people, but it's a dying industry. If it's worthwhile in your line of work, then keep using it until it's no longer the case.

The Yellow Pages are like ice harvesters. The people near the lake don't see the need for mechanical refrigeration (search engines), but everyone else does.

[NTN]

Yes, the Test cycle sucks. One friggin year to split test, and what happens if your new copy sucks

You need to Educate business owners on how they can become Billionaires knowing this secret. A 1-1 return would be a dream to most Billion dollar companies, that's why the small stay small.

You're dead wrong when you state "but businesses are in business to make money and the only way to make money in the long run is to make money in the short term to survive to make money in the long run." It's this mentality that causes 70%+ of all new businesses to Fail by the 5th year.

Originally Posted by jimbo3891

This I would definitely agree with. TEST whatever you do. That's another reason why I don't care for the YP - the test cycle is too long. Other media has a much shorter test cycle. IM has the shortest test cycle as we can change in moments.

Most of my business owners would not be satisfied with a 1 to 1 return - that's just breaking even. But, you are correct, the long term value of that acquired client is definitely worth the initial cost - otherwise, you need to reassess your marketing. Getting a new customer is great, but businesses are in business to make money and the only way to make money in the long run is to make money in the short term to survive to make money in the long run.

Media is not a particular magazine, tv show, etc... It refers to Print media, Radio, TV, Internet, etc...

Not sure if I agree that there is NO BAD media. There's definitely media that is not appropriate for a particular business. For example, a gentleman's magazine would not expect to get results advertising in a women's magazine or on a women's TV network. Maybe you wouldn't call that BAD media - but it's definitely not the proper media for the business.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by NTN

Yes, the Test cycle sucks. One friggin year to split test, and what happens if your new copy sucks

You need to Educate business owners on how they can become Billionaires knowing this secret. A 1-1 return would be a dream to most Billion dollar companies, that's why the small stay small.

You're dead wrong when you state "but businesses are in business to make money and the only way to make money in the long run is to make money in the short term to survive to make money in the long run." It's this mentality that causes 70%+ of all new businesses to Fail by the 5th year.

Hey NTN.

I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong, so I'll definitely bite on this one to better understand here. You state that I'm "dead wrong". O.K. I'll need more information to better understand what you're talking about.

Here's how I've understood it from every econ and business course I've been involved with - as well as personal experience in working with businesses. If a company is not making enough to pay the day to day and month to month bills, then their life will be short. Unless they are like an old stock car racing owner I used to know would say, "How can you have a million dollars and race in Nascar? Start with $2 million dollars." Unless a company has a pile of cash or some investors with a pile of cash to draw from, the benefits of being in business better at the very minimum equal the costs of being in business or the business will be short lived. A business cannot operate in a deficit for very long before they practically have to close the doors.

Plus, unless a business owner can earn more (now here I'm not talking initially) than they can earn at a "real job", then they need to seriously evaluate their business model, their product, and everything surrounding their business. If the numbers don't add up, then they should seriously consider getting a job if they can't modify anything in their business to increase their income. Running a business is no cake walk - as I'm sure anyone that's run their own business will attest to. There are headaches that are not associated with being an employee of a business. But, the rewards are so much greater if you can make a living at your business.

Help me understand where you say I am dead wrong. There's not enough information in your statement to evaluate it and determine where I'm wrong.

As for the 1 to 1 thing, if a company spends $1 to get a new customer that returns $1 to the business, then the net gain is $0. The company has not made a profit. If the recycle rate on that customer is monthly, then, they stand the change to make that $1 eleven more times that year and that means a profit - but that's not a 1 to 1 return - it's actually a 12 to 1 return. And the lifetime value of that client could potentially be hundreds of dollars in return for very little expenditures in the future. It's easier to keep a current customer than to acquire a new one.

But, if the recycle rate on that customer is annually, then it will be a complete year before that customer generates a dollar for the business. If that business doesn't get introductions to additional new customers from that new customer, then that $1 is all that can be generated by that $1 in expenditures. If they can generate two additional introductions that turn into customers at the same profit rate, then that customer has generated $3 for the $1 expended (even though there will probably be some expenses for those introductions to new customers it should be less than the initial new customer). Now that begins to generate a profit.

However, if each new customer makes the same money for the business as it cost to acquire that customer, then either the profit on the customer is too low or the cost to acquire is too high. Although you say this would be a dream for most Billion dollar companies, I'm not sure they would agree - nightmare would be more like it. I'd say they'd definitely evaluate their business model very seriously because they would not be making any profit.

As I said at the start, I'm willing to be shown the error in my ways, but you'll have to help me understand. Everything I've been taught from classes, to the school of hard knocks, says that a company that is not making a profit is doomed to failure unless they modify something to begin generating profits. Ideas for the above example would be 1) increase the number of times a customer comes back 2) increase the number of dollars a customer spends per visit 3) generate inexpensive customers from introductions by the existing customer 4) reduce the cost of acquiring new customers (this plays in to #3) 5) reduce the cost of the product or service that customers are buying (and who hasn't done that in this day and age.

I can be taught, but I need more information. Help me understand what you're talking about.

[jimbo3891]

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

Nowadays, lots of people have Google right on their cell phones. No need to boot up the computer (which some people always leave on anyway) or to flip through the yellow pages. Just grab your phone, go to Google, find a plumber and call.

Yellow Pages may still be useful for some people, but it's a dying industry. If it's worthwhile in your line of work, then keep using it until it's no longer the case.

The Yellow Pages are like ice harvesters. The people near the lake don't see the need for mechanical refrigeration (search engines), but everyone else does.

Thanks Dan.

That's my position and belief as well.

My computers are never off (we've got four in our home) - except for the occasional reboot for software installations and the like. My computers are a tool in my house that I use constantly - not an appliance (like a TV or toaster) that I only turn on at the point I need to use it. It's more like my refrigerator or freezer - running all the time to provide what I need at a moment's notice. I leave my ice maker turned on in my freezer because I want to get ice WHEN I NEED IT - not have to wait for it to make ice when I need it. I leave my computers on so I can get information WHEN I NEED IT - not wait for one of them to boot up.

A local radio station has something every afternoon called "The Impossible Question". A couple of weeks back the question was "In 1910, there were approximately 20 million of these in the US ; however, now there are approximately 9 million of these. What is it?"

The answer? Horses.

In 1910, horses were used for a variety of purposes - farming, transportation, cargo, even pleasure. What are they used for now - primarily just pleasure. What happened?

A new technology came along and changed everything. The technology to replace the horse with a newer and more efficient tool arrived on the scene at an affordable price and the entire "landscape" changed. Cars, trucks, tractors, and other motorized items replaced the horse. An entire industry was changed because of this. We speak of buggy whips in the IM realm lots of times, but it wasn't just buggy whips. Every town had at least one blacksmith, a livery, a general store that sold tack, and numerous other businesses associated with horses. There were even watering troughs on the street and poles to tie up your hose. Has anyone seen any of these lately? It's not really easy to find a tack shop when you first get into anything dealing with horses today - I know, we've looked for that. Where did we end up purchasing a lot of our "stuff"? Online, or course.

A new technology changed EVERYTHING. And that's what's happening today. A new technology is changing everything with marketing - the internet. Those who choose to embrace it will be the old buggy salesmen that are running the successful car dealerships. Those that don't will be serving a shrinking market.

[MichaelHiles]

I agree that the Yellow Pages are a medium.

There is no such thing as a "bad" medium except when considering the ROI. And it certainly depends upon the sector.

However, the use of the Yellow Pages as a medium has sharply declined over the past several years, and continues to slide, while it remain fairly expensive in comparison to other forms of media.