Yea or Nay - Would you promote an offer with an opt in form?

[Scott Ames]

Some won't promote any offer where traffic is first sent to an opt-in form. What if the publisher made sure you got your commission? Would that change your mind or no?

[mbrown]

If the publisher is paying back end commissions is a great strategy for both parties involved. Basically, the affiliate is helping the publisher build their list and make sales and the affiliate is benefiting by getting back end commissions from their sales funnel.

With The Profit HQ I do something very similar. I have free videos, products, newsletters for my affiliates to promote and they earn lifetime commissions on all back end sales. Win/win. The affiliates enjoy being able to simply promote a freebie and earn.

As an affiliate I would not want to promote someones opt in form where I either didn't get commission (obviously) or where I could only earn on the immediate back end product. It should be a longer period in my opinion and from my results the lifelong stretch has been very good to the affiliates.

[Scott Ames]

Originally Posted by mbrown

If the publisher is paying back end commissions is a great strategy for both parties involved. Basically, the affiliate is helping the publisher build their list and make sales and the affiliate is benefiting by getting back end commissions from their sales funnel.

With The Profit HQ I do something very similar. I have free videos, products, newsletters for my affiliates to promote and they earn lifetime commissions on all back end sales. Win/win. The affiliates enjoy being able to simply promote a freebie and earn.

As an affiliate I would not want to promote someones opt in form where I either didn't get commission (obviously) or where I could only earn on the immediate back end product. It should be a longer period in my opinion and from my results the lifelong stretch has been very good to the affiliates.

Interesting. How is that tracked? Does the affiliate information go into the customer record somehow and everytime that customer buys again the affiliate gets a commission?

[JayXtreme]

Yes

I have and still do... but there are a few factors that I review first.

Each time it is different and I will always do my research before spending promo time on a product with an opt-in.

Peace

Jay

[mbrown]

Scott,

It tracks via cookie and IP.
The customer who comes in under an affiliate will get tagged with their ID number. So each additional purchase the referred customer makes gets allocated to the original affiliate.

[Chris Thompson]

I think affiliates need to only consider two things when looking to promote a vendor's opt-in page:

1) Will the vendor replace your cookie? Most will not, and most are honest. You can verify by signing up for the opt-in yourself. You should always do this!

2) Will the conversion rate be better than if the vendor did NOT use an opt-in? If you see his autoresponders and think they are good, then maybe (just maybe) they are actually increasing conversion and this HELPS you regardless of if you make commission on later backend sales or not.

In other words, if the opt-in format converts better for the vendor and for you, why would anyone complain? The only logical answer is that affiliates have a psychological aversion to building "someone elses list". That's silly, so long as the vendor is honest as per point #1. If you disagree then create your OWN sales page, with your OWN opt-in, write some autoresponders, and direct traffic straight to the order form.

[barbling]

'course I'd promote a product with an optin form...after I see how the follow up is.

I have optin forms on all of my products - I have to send folks on the fence my 7 day free eclass that showcases just how buying the product will benefit their goals.

Can't do that without an optin!

Barbara

[Kevin Riley]

I have campaigns (and a very nice new one coming in September) where my affiliates send prospects to a page that collects opt-ins. They send through a lifetime tracking link (serviced by my 1 Shopping Cart). When the prospect has been educated by the free information, and goes on to buy my product, the affiliate is credited with a commission. This works quite nicely.

So, if someone else is using the same technique, I am quite happy to send prospects. The conversions are often better in the long run, due to the warming up of the prospect.

[Robyn8243]

You really need to determine based on the particular merchant.

When I first came online, I was involved in direct sales/network marketing industry.

My first affiliate marketing experience was promoting free opt-in information by MLM/Network Marketing expert Mike Dillard. (I did not even really know what affiliate marketing was at the time)

Building Mike Dillard's opt in list was one of the most profitable moves I have ever made. He continually provides his list with well written valuable content while simultaneously promoting 98% his own stuff, and he pays lifetime affiliate commissions (50%) on all of it. While he is friends with many big marketers, he only rarely promotes anyone else's products.

I would love to find more merchants like this who truly value their affiliates and their lists.

When I started out, he had one book that sold for $40. He continues to add great products at a huge range of price points, including a monthly newsletter and while I have not promoted his stuff in over a year or more because I am no longer involved in that industry, I continue to get commissions every month...more so when he launches a new product.

Because that was my first experience with affiliate marketing, when I first learned about more typical affiliate marketing, (Clickbank) I naively thought products with opt-ins for free information were good to promote.

Unfortunately a lot of merchants have no concern for their affiliates, and immediately after the opt-in they are promoting other people's products....and doing nothing to close the sales of the initial product promoted.

In fact, if you are promoting multiple products in the same general category, you might find that the follow ups of one vendor you are promoting are overwriting your cookies of another.

We need to look closely at every merchant we consider promoting, regardless of opt-in, and go through their follow up process to make an informed decision.

Would love to know of other merchants who provide lifetime commissions on all of their products and do good job of follow up.

Robyn

[Daniel Molano]

I was discussing this in another thread.

Personally, my opt-in traffic has a 50%-75% higher conversion rate than direct sales page traffic across 3 different niches.

Simply because I get to push my products via e-mail in hundreds of ways.

I have super affiliates making me 10-20 sales per day, all of which send the traffic to my squeeze page.

So if you're skipping on products because they have opt-ins, you're just leaving money on the table.

On the other hand, some merchant's deliberately erase your cookie within their e-mail sequence.

As Chris said above, ALWAYS verify that your cookie is indeed being set, even on e-mail sequences.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

Some won't promote any offer where traffic is first sent to an opt-in form. What if the publisher made sure you got your commission? Would that change your mind or no?

I don't care how the vendor does business, so long as I make money. I don't gripe and whinge about how the vendor should be doing more to make me money. If I don't make enough money with a particular offer, I'll dump the site and switch to a new vendor.

It's all about numbers. I don't get emotionally attached to an offer. Either it makes me money or it doesn't, and if it doesn't, I'll drop it.

[Charles Washington]

I have always sais NAY. However, I started promoting an offer that does have a free report optin. Well, 11 HOPS and I got a sale. I dont know if that came from the free report or not. IT does still scare me.

[DeePower]

If it was between two products of equal worth and price and one had an opt in and one didn't, I would promote the product with no opt in.


Dee

[Chris Thompson]

Dee - I think that if you made a decision based purely on the opt-in vs no opt-in you'd be making the wrong choice 50% of the time.

All that matters is CONVERSION. If the opt-in site converts better (which it should), then you're leaving money on the table using your method of decision making.

My $0.02

(Guys and Gals - remember, the clickbank cookie is valid for 60 days, so if someone lands on a vendor page using your hoplink, and the vendor sends out emails with "naked" links, commission is still earned up to 60 days later)

[RB Riddick]

Yes, I would promote an offer with an opt-in form.

I'm not too concerned about the vendor's sales process, as long as the product converts well for me.

And I don't mind building someone else's list, if necessary.

[morry]

Not another one of these threads

And yep, not to sound like a broken record, but with everything else equal, you'll make more money promoting a site with an opt in list. I'm sure there are dodgy vendors, but if you promote good products you'll often find that the vendors are honest.

Sean

[Alexa Smith]

So far, I have promoted products with a vendor's sales-page opt-in only if I know the vendor myself and trust them. Other than those, when I'm looking for products to promote, I don't look any further at all, if they have an opt-in: that's just a "complete rejection".

For me (and clearly for others, too), Jeremy Kelsall summed it up very neatly in this post.

The point (to me) is that there are plenty of products without this problem, and I like to keep things simple rather than creating extra work/worry for myself.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

(Guys and Gals - remember, the clickbank cookie is valid for 60 days, so if someone lands on a vendor page using your hoplink, and the vendor sends out emails with "naked" links, commission is still earned up to 60 days later)

Yup, and I have tested this a million times as an affiliate and as a merchant.

Squeeze page (opt-in) traffic conversions range from 6%-9% in all three niches I have products in (including the internet marketing niche).

Direct sales letter traffic has a 1%-3% conversion. And before you say my copy sucks, in one of the 3 niches it was done by a class A $10,000 USD copywriter.

And as an affiliate I love promoting offers of people who know how to play the list game, those offers convert way better than offers without opt-in.

There are hundreds of ways in which you can follow up, promote and push the offer via e-mail.

Without an opt-in, that 50% average bounce rate means lost potential customers.

The only dilemma here is that some merchant's overwrite your cookie or don't set it at all on their e-mail sequence, which can be easily solved by actually going through their e-mail sequence.

Like I said before, if you're skipping on offers with opt-ins just because they have opt-ins, you're probably leaving double the profit on the table.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

The only dilemma here is that some merchant's overwrite your cookie or don't set it at all on their e-mail sequence

You say that almost as if it's not much of a consideration at all, Daniel. It's actually what determines whether or not we get paid.

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

which can be easily solved by actually going through their e-mail sequence.

So we have to go through their entire email sequence (for 60 days, anyway, to represent cookie-duration) before deciding to become an affiliate, and then we still have to "hope" that they never change their emails/plans/honesty even after doing that?

And all this when there are plenty of other products that don't give us any of these problems?

[Chris Thompson]

Alexa - you're defining the opt-in thing as a "problem", and I think it's better reframed as a way to boost your conversion. If it did not boost conversion why would we vendors do it?

Most vendors are honest. Your gut should also tell you something when you read the sales copy. Do they use outright lies such as "we can only sell 12 more copies at this insane price!, or other fake scarcity/social proof? Then you can look at the first couple of autoresponders. Are they providing real information and value, or are they just pumping the prospect for a quick sale? Those things will give you the correct answer 95% of the time, I'd guess. So the "work" that goes into this is tiny, and the payoff for you can be a doubling of sales like Daniel said.

But - you are helping me to realize that as a vendor I need to make sure all my affiliates (or potential affiliates) know that I'm committed to total honesty and not using ripoff tactics such as cookie replacement. Something to add to my affiliate page FAQ.

[drmani]

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

Some won't promote any offer where traffic is first sent to an opt-in form. What if the publisher made sure you got your commission? Would that change your mind or no?

When it is an email promotion sent to my opt-in list,
I would promote an offer with an opt-in form ONLY IF
I know and TRUST the seller to not abuse my referred
subscribers

(for instance, I'd have absolutely no hesitation in
sending my subscribers to Kevin Riley's list for his
upcoming promotion!)

But even if I'm a little bit unsure of this, then I'm
more likely to limit the mailing to a list of less
responsive subscribers rather than my best and most
valued clients' sub-list.

The affiliate commissions are of secondary importance,
as the damage that's inflicted by sending your list
members to an unethical emailer's opt-in list can be
far bigger than just monetary losses!

However, if I'm driving traffic to affiliate links
in other ways (not from my opt-in list), then other
metrics come into play, as there is less 'risk' of
reputation loss in case things go haywire.

My 2 cents

All success
Dr.Mani

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

Alexa - you're defining the opt-in thing as a "problem"

It's a "potential problem" (though easily avoided!) to me, Chris, and to many professional affiliates here, as you can see from many recent threads.

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

If it did not boost conversion why would we vendors do it?

Nobody is questioning that it boosts conversions. All I'm pointing out is the irrefutable fact that it doesn't always boost conversions on which are affiliates are paid.

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

Most vendors are honest.

You have no way of knowing what proportion of them are honest, and neither do I.

All you know is that you are honest.

Even if 75% of them are honest, I'm very happy to avoid the other 25%, thanks. And it's not a problem for me to do so at all. All I have to do is what many Warriors do and select the products for which I wish to be an affiliate according to my own preferences as judged (partly) on the probability of my getting paid for the marketing work I do. That isn't a problem for me at all, thanks.

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

Your gut should also tell you something when you read the sales copy. Do they use outright lies such as "we can only sell 12 more copies at this insane price!, or other fake scarcity/social proof? Then you can look at the first couple of autoresponders.

And if I look at the first couple, but the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth all contain a link to the vendor's wife's affiliate sales page, how much money do I lose in comparison with the situation I'm in if I simply choose a different product instead, build my own list with my own opt-in and send my own emails to my own list with my own affiliate-links?

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

Those things will give you the correct answer 95% of the time, I'd guess.

You're guessing.

In your own words.

Why should I, as an affiliate, have to depend on "guesses" when I can instead choose another product that doesn't give affiliates these problems?

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

the payoff for you can be a doubling of sales like Daniel said.

It can be. It can also not be.

And maybe I can double the sales more easily and more reliably than the vendor can, anyway.

I prefer to take responsibility for my own outcomes, as much as I can, thanks, rather than relying on "guesses".

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

you are helping me to realize that as a vendor I need to make sure all my affiliates (or potential affiliates) know that I'm committed to total honesty and not using ripoff tactics such as cookie replacement. Something to add to my affiliate page FAQ.

If you do that, affiliates will still have to decide whether or not to trust the information you give on your affiliate page, though, won't they? Nobody really vets or approves or verifies or audits it. In that sense, it's a sales page just like your product sales page is - just for a different audience. But if you don't have the opt-in in the first place, your affiliates don't have the problem at all and they won't have to make such a "guess" at all, will they?

[JayXtreme]

Originally Posted by drmani

When it is an email promotion sent to my opt-in list,
I would promote an offer with an opt-in form ONLY IF
I know and TRUST the seller to not abuse my referred
subscribers

(for instance, I'd have absolutely no hesitation in
sending my subscribers to Kevin Riley's list for his
upcoming promotion!)

But even if I'm a little bit unsure of this, then I'm
more likely to limit the mailing to a list of less
responsive subscribers rather than my best and most
valued clients' sub-list.

The affiliate commissions are of secondary importance,
as the damage that's inflicted by sending your list
members to an unethical emailer's opt-in list can be
far bigger than just monetary losses!

However, if I'm driving traffic to affiliate links
in other ways (not from my opt-in list), then other
metrics come into play, as there is less 'risk' of
reputation loss in case things go haywire.

My 2 cents

All success
Dr.Mani

Ummmm...

Yeah... what he said ^^

I also can appreciate what Alexa is saying in the post above. If analysis of a merchant is going to take too much of my time, I either outsource it with definitive criteria or just avoid the product altogether and choose something else.

Time wasted analysing whether or not a merchant is "legitimate" could be better spent doing stuff I love.. like alcohol or fishing.

My usual stance on this is exactly how Dr Mani explains it..

Someone like Kevin Riley would get my time without hesitation... but others might require some digging.. and commissions aside, I have a relationship with my subscribers to think of.

Like I said above.. I am well prepared to promote a site with an opt-in, but there is plenty to consider before I do.

Even cold traffic will be hitting MY page before a merchant page.

Peace

Jay

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by alexa_s

So we have to go through their entire email sequence (for 60 days, anyway, to represent cookie-duration) before deciding to become an affiliate, and then we still have to "hope" that they never change their emails/plans/honesty even after doing that?

And all this when there are plenty of other products that don't give us any of these problems?

Yes, if it means a huge difference as it does for me.

If you handle low amounts of traffic then don't worry about it, but an extra 3% conversion for me can mean an extra $20,000 USD per month.

And I have split tested this in a million ways, merchant's who know their list game have higher conversions.

Personally, I don't promote other people's stuff until after day 60 in the autoresponder sequence (in which case the affiliate has lost the sale of my product either way).

I actually give my affiliates a chance to link directly to my sales page so that the traffic doesn't even have to go through the opt-in. However, I do warn them that they are leaving money on the table.

Really, I know some merchant's overwrite cookies and all that, but most of them actually don't.

[Chris Thompson]

Alexa - first off, I want to tell you that I think you do a great job of making your case and explaining your points. I'd not want to debate against you!!

Your comments are all completely logical and you made a good point about how I am guessing at a few things. I'm ok with that (personally). I have a good track record with calibrating to lies and deceptions. But I definitely understand your interest in avoiding the very real *potential* for a problem.

So I think we agree there is risk with the opt-in, for affiliates. Because they can't know for sure that the vendor is "clean". And you made a good point about how you could do a better job pre-selling the affiliate's product. You could create your OWN opt-in page and give away something special to customers who buy from you. That would be a very smart strategy. I'm doing exactly this in one niche. Also some of my affiliates build their own page and collect opt-ins to a freebie, and they use the opt-in to sell the lead. And it is their lead, not mine.

I guess the important takeaways for me are:

1) I know my opt-in form increases conversions ... but
2) I also know it scares some affiliates away
3) I have to decide which choice is better, and I have decided to keep the opt-in because overall I think it is more profitable for me and my affiliates.
4) Because of the decision above, I need to "sell" my potential affiliates as you described. That's totally accurate and there is no shame in realizing that an affiliate tool page is a sales page.

I'm OK with a smaller group of affiliates who contact me personally, get to know me, see that I'm responsive and helpful, etc.

For others who are trying to decide whether to promote opt-in pages I still think it's harmless to simply sign up to the opt-in, and come back to it in 30 days (most customers will have bought by then, or are not interested. 60 is not necessary) Then read all the emails that were sent. If you are a professional affiliate then you're always looking at new offers and you can afford to have a pipeline of interesting stuff.

With so many people using opt-ins, I think it's just narrowing your menu too much to avoid ALL opt-ins. But we can agree to disagree, and I 100% respect what you wrote. You are a very clear-minded thinker.