INCOME CLAIMS...Do That Many Warriors Really NOT Get It?

[Lance K]

I just took a quick look through the Classified & WSO sections and all I can say is...WOW!

I'd never really noticed all the offers that contain "I make $blah per blah AND YOU CAN TO" or something to that effect.

Do people really not know that the "you can too" and "I'll show you how you can" etc. comments are...

BIG NO-NOS

???

[Kevin_Hutto]

thats right... ask frank kern about that...

[Robyn8243]

Lance:

I think the answer to your question is a resounding NO!!!

Most people are totally clueless about the very serious legal ramifications of
making income claims and other questionable marketing tactics.

Until legal actions like the ones mentioned elsewhere today become common,
(Oprah and Dr. Oz...and Illinois Attorney General versus affiliate and others pushing impossible to cancel free trials)
a lot of people will continue to take actions that can get them in serious legal
trouble.

Many of those making income claims are probably lying, so whatever consequences come their way are probably deserved....however, I think many miss the fact that even truthful income claims can get you in trouble.

Robyn

[Ashley Wright]

I like that Lance,
Making claims can only get you into trouble!
The thing is what I do with my products and services is.....

If there not happy money back guarentee..
This product/opportunity does not work for everyone!

It is not worth all the hastle in my eyes!

[Nick Brighton]

In what respect or sense are you saying they are big no-nos?

[Mukul Verma]

I make big bucks and you can to buying my product

If someone has to say that, then I wonder if they make the money on selling that line on there niche....

[Tom Brite]

Im not really sure i understand!

This technique of making the reader feel like they can do something as amazing as earn $100 a day or whatever works. The reason it works as if your just starting out or are failing currently then you don't see that as achievable!

Then you see a product that says it will show you how you can do this or that you can do it then you check it out!

Plus those earn $XXX per day etc products do really well because of that!

They make a claim and claim that you can earn the same too.

Not sure if ive understood your point though but it is 'forcing' the reader to know that they can do it too before they have even read the sales copy!

Example:
I earn $100 a day!

VS

I earn $100 a day and you can too!

The second one is obviously better than the first and would get more views and readers.

Thanks

Tom Brite

P.S. If you were just talking about the whole income claims legal side of things then all you need to do is add 'not everyone will make this amount of money' or make a disclaimer etc if its on a site!

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by Mukul Verma

I make big bucks and you can to buying my product

If someone has to say that, then I wonder if they make the money on selling that line on there niche....

Equally, if someone can get "a Million views", why do they need to sell a product showing others how to do it?

If there was an intrinsic value to your sig line, in terms of the results you got from the Million views, then why feel the need to sell it?

Unless of course, those million views didn't net you much money...or you can't repeat the process systematically and methodically to get a regular million views to produce an income worthy of other people knowing about.

Hate to call you out, but I'm tired of the hypocritical BS around here!

Anyway, that's off point. The OP was saying why the phrase "and you can too" is not chess.

I'd like to know in what context/sense it's not appropriate to say that in your sales copy.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Tom Brite

I earn $100 a day!

VS

I earn $100 a day and you can too!

The second one is obviously better than the first and would get more views and readers.

The second one would obviously get more views and readers, yes. It's less clear that that necessarily makes it "better" (unless those are your only criteria for "better", for a WSO).

[Tom Brite]

Originally Posted by alexa_s

The second one would obviously get more views and readers, yes. It's less clear that that necessarily makes it "better" (unless those are your only criteria for "better", for a WSO).

Well really the whole point of a WSO is to provide value and quality in return for money!

So that change in title then means you provide the same quality and value but to more people and earn money... so then yes it is a better title!

Tom Brite

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

I've heard it said that good copywriting is "the art of presenting the truth in the most positive and compelling way possible."

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by Tom Brite

Example:
I earn $100 a day!

VS

I earn $100 a day and you can too!

The second one is obviously better than the first and would get more views and readers.

Now for the science part:

This principle is NOT a deviation from the truth, nor is it any kind of legal infringement...UNLESS you omit one particular word..."how"

When you leave this word in, it is basically a copywriting/sales tactic which does one key thing:

It involves the reader, after telling them a fact/benefit which would otherwise seem distant, unrelated or detached from the reader

For example...

"I made 2 million last year from my warrior forum sig file alone..."

Sounds like bragging and who cares, right?

Now...

"I made 2 million last year from my warrior forum sig file alone...and here's how you can too"

Sounds like instructions on how I can make 2 million. Simple change, big difference.

HOWEVER, when you leave the word "how" out of your copy, you're in trouble.

Here's an example...

Example 1 "Here's how I made 2 million on the warrior forum, and how you can too"

vs

Example 2 "I made 2 million on the warrior forum - and you can too"

Example 1 suggests "how" you can copy my success. Which is all you're really selling - the how to.

Example 2 suggests that you "CAN" copy my success, when in reality you'll probably not be as smart, have enough time, money or passion...to ever come close to my same success...despite copy and pasting my "blueprint".

[tj]

Originally Posted by wrighty10

I like that Lance,
Making claims can only get you into trouble!
The thing is what I do with my products and services is.....

If there not happy money back guarentee..
This product/opportunity does not work for everyone!

It is not worth all the hastle in my eyes!

Even if there is a money back guarantee - still the tax office can come after you and charge you income taxes and interest based on the income claim.

Timo

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

When you leave this word out, you're in trouble.

I believe that you can still be in trouble in the US even with the "how."

I prefer to say things like:

"He made $XX using the same techniques you are about to learn..."

"Using techniques you can imitate..."

"Doing simple things most anyone can do..."

I also will often say in sales copy after making an income claim or reciting a testimonial "How much you make is up to you--you may do better, you may do worse."

Edit: My sig is a great example. Roy DID it, but you may not. I will show you exactly how he did it and how you can imitate his successful techniques.

[Mukul Verma]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

Equally, if someone can get "a Million views", why do they need to sell a product showing others how to do it?

If there was an intrinsic value to your sig line, in terms of the results you got from the Million views, then why feel the need to sell it?

Unless of course, those million views didn't net you much money...or you can't repeat the process systematically and methodically to get a regular million views to produce an income worthy of other people knowing about.

Hate to call you out, but I'm tired of the hypocritical BS around here!

Anyway, that's off point. The OP was saying why the phrase "and you can too" is not chess.

I'd like to know in what context/sense it's not appropriate to say that in your sales copy.

Hey Nick, I see your point, no worries you should call someone on it

If that was the case, only people who have not done anything would be teaching. People who have done anything would not be teaching since they are making money. I would say 100% only people who have had success should teach.

My reason was not long ago for the millionths (not literally of course) time I explained exactly what I did to video market, so I decided to make it into a product...

You will not see a income guarantee from me (even though I can say it consistently makes me a good income (if you want details on how much PM me, as this is not the place to say it), but the GREAT part is the time off, that I love. Income guarantee what this thread about.

So there would no warrior forum following

The point here is income earning disclaimers and it being legal and no no's

[MichaelHiles]

I just intentionally tell people that I am not going to make any income claims because they're in charge of their own destiny, not me. All I can do is show them how I create revenue for myself.

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

I believe that you can still be in trouble in the US even with the "how."

I agree, it's a close the edge tactic...but at the end of the day it's a play on words.

It's suggesting "here's how you can get the results that I did"

But in reality they are saying "here's what I did, and here's how you can copy me..."

It's like saying "I can jump 7 metres high. And here's HOW you can too (generically speaking of course, because my techniques allowed me to do it, but you might not even have legs...there's no way I would know that".

I agree, disclaimers need to be put in place for this sort of thing for max security...

...but the context of the way it is worded is a true free for all.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

It's like saying "I can jump 7 metres high. And here's HOW you can too

Wow! You're like SUPERMAN or something! I'll pay you anything!

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by Mukul Verma

Hey Nick, I see your point, no worries you should call someone on it

If that was the case, only people who have not done anything would be teaching. People who have done anything would not be teaching since they are making money. I would say 100% only people who have had success should teach.

My reason was not long ago for the millionths (not literally of course) time I explained exactly what I did to video market, so I decided to make it into a product...

You will not see a income guarantee from me (even though I can say it consistently makes me a good income (if you want details on how much PM me, as this is not the place to say it), but the GREAT part is the time off, that I love. Income guarantee what this thread about.

So there would no warrior forum following

The point here is income earning disclaimers and it being legal and no no's

Actually, I hold my hand up and aplogize for my reply to your post - I rifled off without thinking properly. Unlike me.

I guess I was trying to say, just because people are using certain tactics to get better response, doens't mean they aren't walking the walk.

I only wanted to say that because I saw your post which suggested that, and it seemed to contradict what you were doing - which was selling something in your sig, which if was as effective as you suggest it is, would likely cause an objection in most people's minds which is "if he's getting a million viewers/visitors, why the heck is he so quick to sell his spade?"

I agree with your reply though, and I was not thinking straight.

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Wow! You're like SUPERMAN or something! I'll pay you anything!

Well, it comes with a guarantee too - you jump higher than you've ever jumped before, or you pay nothing*

* trampolines may be used in the coaching sessions of this program.
* only open to people who have never jumped before in their lives

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Tell me how much and where to send my PayPal payment Nick! I can't wait!

[Mukul Verma]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

Actually, I hold my hand up and aplogize for my reply to your post - I rifled off without thinking properly. Unlike me.

I guess I was trying to say, just because people are using certain tactics to get better response, doens't mean they aren't walking the walk.

I only wanted to say that because I saw your post which suggested that, and it seemed to contradict what you were doing - which was selling something in your sig, which if was as effective as you suggest it is, would likely cause an objection in most people's minds which is "if he's getting a million viewers/visitors, why the heck is he so quick to sell his spade?"

I agree with your reply though, and I was not thinking straight.

No worries man.

I also found your post on 'how' to be very insiteful for someone brand new to salescopy.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

I've heard it said that good copywriting is "the art of presenting the truth in the most positive and compelling way possible."

I'm trying to source this. It's going in my sig.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I'm trying to source this. It's going in my sig.

Um, this is a bit akward, um, but, um, I think I was the one who said it. It just sounds better when one says "I've heard it said."

[cesarsan]

I believe it is only a problem when it is a lie. The customer must have an estimate of how much he can expect to profit when buying the system.

But how can we separate the wheat from the chaff? Only by reading the product's sales page with a critical mind and looking for information on it and its creator can a customer know if what he is buying is a quality product from a quality source.

That said I must also say that some claims we see in the sales pages out there are laughable. There is no way a newbie can check hundreds of dollars (or thousands) just by reading an ebook or blueprint.

[Zeus66]

This thread has given me a headache. I can show you how to get a headache from it too!

$97 please.

[Lance K]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

In what respect or sense are you saying they are big no-nos?

I'd ask an attorney.

[Frank Donovan]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

This thread has given me a headache. I can show you how to get a headache from it too!

$97 please.

Okay, but I'll need proof of your headache.

A screenshot of a bottle of aspirin should do the trick.



Frank

[kindsvater]

Looking at the classified ads ....

$50,000 per month
$690 per day ($20,700 per month)
$1100 per month

WSOs ...

$millions
$1000-$5000 per month
$5432 per month
$7566 per month
$2000 a day ($60,000 per month)
$100 a day ($3000 per month)

Dang. I don't know about you, but everyone here is soon going to be making $100,000+ per month!!!!!!! Yippeee!!!!!!!!

I think I'll do a WSO - how to make $100,000k per month - just sign up for all these other offers.

[mlmguru]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

I just intentionally tell people that I am not going to make any income claims because they're in charge of their own destiny, not me. All I can do is show them how I create revenue for myself.

I like this Michael, it is probaly the best thing we all should do.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Dang. I don't know about you, but everyone here is soon going to be making $100,000+ per month!!!!!!!

I get your point, but I have a slightly different take...

After working with verifiable THOUSANDS of people who claim they wish to succeed online, only a small handful take ANY directed action. Those that do often succeed and succeed at a high level.

I'm sure you are not intending to paint every opportunity with the same wide brush or you wouldn't be here, but the reality is this: If one is willing to follow a reasonable plan for a year, that person should be able to make $5000 or so online.

Are there bogus plans out there? Sure. But there are also plenty of ways to make it happen.

[Zeus66]

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Okay, but I'll need proof of your headache.

A screenshot of a bottle of aspirin should do the trick.


Frank

$97 please.

[Steven Wagenheim]

The OP is so vague that I'm not even sure what the actual complaint is.

Is it saying that no mention of any income generation potential should be
allowed in sales copy at all? (There goes every Clickbank product in the
make money niche)

Or is the OP specifically saying that guaranteeing you will make $X a month
or whatever is a no-no?

I personally see no problem with the following:

"I've discovered a simple system that has generated me $100 a day and
I'm going to show you exactly what I do to earn that so that YOU can
too."

Where is that a no-no?

I'm not guaranteeing anything. I'm just saying that I'm going to show
them what I do to make that money so that if they put those tactics
into practice, they can make that money too.

The operative word being can...not will.

Big difference in my opinion and certain enough about the wording that
I'll take my chances with the authorities.

So far in 6 plus years nobody has taken me to court.

But like I said, if the OP is saying you can't mention anything about income
potential at all, then Clickbank better hope to God that the feds don't
take a look at their marketplace.

Anyway, a clarification of what the actual complaint is would be nice.

[Lance K]

Originally Posted by Lance K

I'd never really noticed all the offers that contain "I make per blah AND YOU CAN TO" or something to that effect.

Do people really not know that the "you can too" and "I'll show you how you can" etc. comments are...

I thought I made it clear enough. Sorry if I didn't.

Income claims are A-OK if you have the proof to back them up. Why you imply that your prospect can expect similar results is where the trouble starts.

Just because no alphabet agency has noticed you yet doesn't mean they won't eventually.

I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on T.V. And I'm not even a non-attorney spokesman. But I'm fairly certain that ignorance of the law isn't an acceptable defense.

[Steve Diamond]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

I just intentionally tell people that I am not going to make any income claims because they're in charge of their own destiny, not me. All I can do is show them how I create revenue for myself.

This is by far the best policy. Many of the other responses in this thread represent points of view that IMO are recklessly playing with fire, to put it mildly.

I'm not a lawyer. I strongly urge anyone who is promoting or thinking of promoting a business opportunity in the U.S. to consult a good one, realizing that "business opportunity" has a very broad definition according to the FTC (Federal Trade Commission).

Since 2006 the FTC has been floating a proposal for revising their rules on the promotion of business opportunities in general and income claims in particular. They discussed their proposal with representatives of various bizopp-related industries, and they summarized these discussions in this document, which calls for additional comments by June 16, 2008.

Apparently discussion is still continuing. They held a workshop on June 11, 2009, and in this document stated that they agreed to extend the workshop comment period until June 29. I haven't been able to find anything more recent. Apparently it hasn't yet become law.

But in any case, the proposed rule revision gives a good idea of their thinking and, probably, a pretty good idea of what their enforcement people are looking for. You can find the language of the proposed rule as an appendix near the bottom of the very long document referred to in my first link, two paragraphs ago.

Its essence, as I read it, is that when you make any income claims, you must have documented proof that the claims are true and you must state what percentage of the people who have bought into your opportunity have actually achieved that result.

In other words, it's not enough to say "disclaimer: results not typical." It's not enough to say "your results will depend on your efforts." You have to say "out of all the people who bought my stupid ebook, .05% of them actually ever made $15,000 per month."

When's the last time you ever saw a statement like that on an IM sales page?

Steve

[Ruddy]

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Looking at the classified ads ....

$50,000 per month
$690 per day ($20,700 per month)
$1100 per month

WSOs ...


$1000-$5000 per month
$5432 per month
$7566 per month
$2000 a day ($60,000 per month)
$100 a day ($3000 per month)

Dang. I don't know about you, but everyone here is soon going to be making $100,000+ per month!!!!!!! Yippeee!!!!!!!!

I think I'll do a WSO - how to make $100,000k per month - just sign up for all these other offers.

PM me and I'll show you one of my sites which made me $30,000 per month . I have sold that site so I have no problem telling you about it. And yeah, of course I can prove i was the previous owner, so not just a simple claim. I teach because I want to make even more money. I was thinking something like Mass Control or PPC Coach make **** load amount of money so why don't I try to double my income with this? After all, I'm also a member of various sites such as PPC Coach, Black Hat Guide, Mass Control, etc. It's true some of them are pure hype but some others aren't. So it's not a false claim (at least, my guides)

And I do teach something like adwords, SEO, etc. so basically you won't become my competitors. So why not? It's not just a claim.

[jasonl70]

In the US at least, it does appear that the "powers that be" (FTC) are taking a more hardline approach to income claims then they have in the past.

"I make 5k a week - here's how I do it"
is certainly not the same thing as
"I make 5k a week - here's how you can, too"

where as I disagree with Nick -
"I make 5k a week - and you can too"
is saying the same thing as
"I make 5k a week - here's how you can, too"

Personaly, I don't have a problem with any of them if they are true. I'm not an idiot -I know "can" and "will" are not the same thing, but apparantly the FTC thinks we are all idiots and need protected from our own stupidity. I am much concerned with the first part of all these claims!

[jasonl70]

Some people may not realize this, but "income claims" goes beyond you saying how much you make. It includes testimonials that refer to income, etc.. These new rules that the FTC are talking about are pretty extreme.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Steve Diamond

In other words, it's not enough to say "disclaimer: results not typical." It's not enough to say "your results will depend on your efforts." You have to say "out of all the people who bought my stupid ebook, .05% of them actually ever made $15,000 per month."

When's the last time you ever saw a statement like that on an IM sales page?

Steve

Steve,

I was aware of this and I think it's not a good development. Here's my take (feel free to correct me if I am off base)...

Take any human activity--it could be self-improvement, but it could just as easily be parenting or graduating from college, and look at how many people actually take consistent action.

The vast majority of people are unwilling to take consistent action in any area regardless of their personal potential.

I sell self-improvement products. Self-improvement requires a person to take action--whether it is to lose weight, be a better parent, stop smoking or make money.

When someone doesn't take action they see no results and the vast majority of people never take any action.

Should we then say "5% of people see results" when only 5% of people take any action?

I think it's an unrealistic requirement.

I understand why people want these kinds of requirements--there are all kinds of people making outlandish claims and presenting completely unworkable solutions to problems, but at some point you've have to say people have to take reasonable action.

[Ruddy]

Agree with you Kevin. People don't take action. Well, I was working like 8 hours a day when I was promoting my first diet pill site. Now for my working sites, I usually outsource them. There's trial and error in outsourcing as well but now they seem work to be fine.

[Mukul Verma]

It comes down to this

Use what you have done constantly and worked to sell your IM product, however be humble.

Dont tell on something you think or has works for someone else.

The ones who are real will last the longest

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Ruddy

Agree with you Kevin. People don't take action. Well, I was working like 8 hours a day when I was promoting my first diet pill site. Now for my working sites, I usually outsource them. There's trial and error in outsourcing as well but now they seem work to be fine.

Right now in my sig (though I will probably change it tomorrow) is Roy Miller. Roy was 34, unemployed and living in his parents' basement when I met him. He emailed me and asked me if it was possible for a guy with no money to start to actually make money online.

I gave him free admission to my Self-Help Products Crash Course (normally $800)

By the time the course was over (10 weeks) he had made $6,110.00.

But here was the funny thing...

His class mates watched him make money and cheered him on, but none of them even got a site up--they didn't take action. To them the payoff was simply going to the class every week.

So, 25 people and only 1 took action.

[Josef_Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Right now in my sig (though I will probably change it tomorrow) is Roy Miller. Roy was 34, unemployed and living in his parents' basement when I met him. He emailed me and asked me if it was possible for a guy with no money to start to actually make money online.

I gave him free admission to my Self-Help Products Crash Course (normally $800)

By the time the course was over (10 weeks) he had made $6,110.00.

But here was the funny thing...

His class mates watched him make money and cheered him on, but none of them even got a site up--they didn't take action. To them the payoff was simply going to the class every week.

So, 25 people and only 1 took action.

Kinda sucks when this happens, but this is the sole reason why i don't like teaching people what I do...and if I do, than I have to teach in masses.

I don't like doing one on one time, even if I'm offered money...because I earn so much more just doing the stuff myself. It's time consuming, long hours, and the people who want to help may eventually quit or decided not to do it.

That ratio of action takers to non action takers is fairly accurate.

Only about 4-5 people out of 100 actually do anything with the information. I was one of those 100...until I decided to be a part of the 5%.

It's a choice.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Um, this is a bit akward, um, but, um, I think I was the one who said it. It just sounds better when one says "I've heard it said."

Got a last name I can attribute?

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Got a last name I can attribute?

Sorry, Kevin Bidwell. My bad.

[David Mcalorum]

It's a true shame, such on obvious fail is so often overlooked. You will often see those claims associated with newer IMers who have been self-taught to think that is a basic line to throw into every pitch. Everyone who's bought a guide like that and decided to try and to their own right away has no other idea ground into their head yet. /cry

[Steve Diamond]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

When someone doesn't take action they see no results and the vast majority of people never take any action.

Should we then say "5% of people see results" when only 5% of people take any action?

I think it's an unrealistic requirement.

I understand why people want these kinds of requirements--there are all kinds of people making outlandish claims and presenting completely unworkable solutions to problems, but at some point you've have to say people have to take reasonable action.

Kevin, as a rational being I agree with you 100%. But no one ever accused the FTC of being rational or realistic.

Their mission as they see it is to protect the consumer from his/her own stupidity and ignorance. This is obviously a never-ending task and a great example, when taken to extremes, of government at its worst.

Nearly enough to make me sign up to be a Libertarian.

But all of this is beside the point. Marketers have to deal with reality, and in the U.S. the FTC is reality. Ignore their rules at your peril.

Steve

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Steve Diamond

Kevin, as a rational being I agree with you 100%. But no one ever accused the FTC of being rational or realistic.

Their mission as they see it is to protect the consumer from his/her own stupidity and ignorance. This is obviously a never-ending task and a great example, when taken to extremes, of government at its worst.

Nearly enough to make me sign up to be a Libertarian.

But all of this is beside the point. Marketers have to deal with reality, and in the U.S. the FTC is reality. Ignore their rules at your peril.

Steve

Steve, you are a wise man. (Unless you are a woman trapped in a man's body. If so, you are a wise woman.) I agree with you 100%.

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

This thread has given me a headache. I can show you how to get a headache from it too!

$97 please.

Sorry guy - the system was so transparent I figured it out on my own. But I will give you a testimony that it IS an easy system and, while many will continue to miss the point, a very good percentage of readers will succeed without any work at all!

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Sorry, Kevin Bidwell. My bad.

The fun part about changing your sig is that it changes everywhere. When I used to have a sig that said "Information marketing is the business of selling farts by calling them poop," a lot of people said they were offended by that.

Now that I've changed it, they still have these comments up about how offended they were, but people reading those posts today will see my new sig... so it looks like they're offended by honesty in copywriting.

I just think that's hilarious.

[Mukul Verma]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

The fun part about changing your sig is that it changes everywhere. When I used to have a sig that said "Information marketing is the business of selling farts by calling them poop," a lot of people said they were offended by that.

Now that I've changed it, they still have these comments up about how offended they were, but people reading those posts today will see my new sig... so it looks like they're offended by honesty in copywriting.

I just think that's hilarious.

That is funny!!!!