Why do IMers lie?

[Marty S]

I just got an email from a GURU type marketer pushing the $1 trial offer for Affilliate Classroom offer. Nice layout and great video included and shows a video marketing strategy for CB products. That's fine and I am relatively sure there is some quality information to be had there.

The problem with the landing page is with the ethics involved with a dropping "Only # Seats Left..." sequence that leaves the reader to believe they are viewing an actual countdown of seats left for a $1 webinar.

The page looks top quality, the video sounds convincing, and the JV who sent me the link is well respected - so why do they have to put these phony countdowns on the site?

Just to let you know,I tried the same page on different IPs and the count down starts around 300 and after a few minutes makes it way to 5 and then stops. If you have another IP, it starts the cycle all over again. To me it is just something that makes an otherwise interesting offer rather lame and dubious.

[Ben Roy]

Because they make more money that way. Not that it's ok.

[MacFreddie]

Originally Posted by Nathan Segal

The idea is promote scarcity. In my understanding of that, the counter would go down only if someone actually bought a product. What you're describing sounds fishy. And I don't blame you for the way you feel, either.

Because they suck!

They always talk Gross Sales.

They never tell you how much of the 1 Million launch went to affiliates, the labor to produce the product, the fulfillment cost, shipping, their Labor, etc...

The CPA guys never tell you their PPC or marketing cost.

I take everything with a grain of salt when they Speaketh.

[idevelop]

Yes its underhanded and it seems a lot of "internet marketing" strategies are lies.
Ill take the high road even if it means making less money. If my gut feels its dishonest or misleading I wont do it.

Like so many "Free Offers" you see online and here = the amount of hoops you have to jump through to get that "free offer" is hardly worth the time 90% of the time IMO

IMO a great marketer will be honest, give great service and grow his / her brand via great tactical methods that are not misleading.. That takes time.

[MichaelHiles]

I though there already was a running thread about this exact marketer and the situation.

[Kevin_Hutto]

It is my opinion that very few of the IM Gurus ever made significant NET PROFIT outside of the make money niche... Therefore, they rely upon the profits of their IM launches to move them forward until the next launch.

[Rezbi]

All of those reasons as above... plus... no one wants the truth.

Believe me I've tested this.

People, in general, don't want the truth.

They want to hear that it's possible to rake in millions per minute online.

They want to hear they're among the first ones in and the spaces 'were so limited but he let me in as a special just for me'.

Yada, yada, yada.

This may sound like BS to a lot of you reading this but, like I said, I've tested it.

These guys know the only way to get people to take out their wallets is to tell them the lies they WANT to hear.

It's unfortunate but true.

I've tried to tell the truth, only to be smacked down BECAUSE of it.

[George Sepich]

It's because most of marketing is a distortion of the truth, even if it's not an outright lie.
Twenty or thirty years ago, most marketing was done by your traditonal media such as TV, Radio, Newspapers, Direct Mailings, and you can always throw in your Door to Door Salesman, and other old time salesmanship. There was certainly plenty of hype then too, and lies too. It's just magnified on the Internet.

The reality is now anybody with an Internet Connection can market, make false claims, and do it all pretty much for free. If they are marketing on the internet, that makes them an IM'er.

There are plenty of well know names in IM that have made it big by exaggerating their income by faking it until they make it, and then turn around and tell you their story about how six months, or one year or two years ago they were just like you, struggling to make it. But they found a "method" or "system" blah blah blah.

To be fair, some really do, but most do not. Be scared, be wary, due your due diligence when it comes to IM, and never, never feel bad when you ask tough questions and the "Guru" or whoever acts hurt like you are questioning their very integrity.

Bottom line, the majority (really the majority) of IM is total crap. Trust nobody unless they have earned it.

Yes, my comments seem harsh and jaded. Take them or leave them. Be careful out there, you can still succeed.

George

[MichaelHiles]

Originally Posted by George Sepich

It's because most of marketing is a distortion of the truth, even if it's not an outright lie.
Twenty or thirty years ago, most marketing was done by your traditonal media such as TV, Radio, Newspapers, Direct Mailings, and you can always throw in your Door to Door Salesman, and other old time salesmanship. There was certainly plenty of hype then too, and lies too. It's just magnified on the Internet.

The reality is now anybody with an Internet Connection can market, make false claims, and do it all pretty much for free. If they are marketing on the internet, that makes them an IM'er.

There are plenty of well know names in IM that have made it big by exaggerating their income by faking it until they make it, and then turn around and tell you their story about how six months, or one year or two years ago they were just like you, struggling to make it. But they found a "method" or "system" blah blah blah.

To be fair, some really do, but most do not. Be scared, be wary, due your due diligence when it comes to IM, and never, never feel bad when you ask tough questions and the "Guru" or whoever acts hurt like you are questioning their very integrity.

Bottom line, the majority (really the majority) of IM is total crap. Trust nobody unless they have earned it.

Yes, my comments seem harsh and jaded. Take them or leave them. Be careful out there, you can still succeed.

George

Hey George. I wanted to know more about your statement "most marketing is a distortion of the truth".

IMHO, from the high altitude view of all marketing in the world, "most marketing" is corporate-level, both B2B & B2C.

Were you including all of that in your "most marketing"? Or just the IM folks?

I mean, classic advertising like Ogilvy's Rolls Royce ad, "so quiet all you can hear is the ticking of the clock" was their attempt to spin the fact that the annoying clock tick wasn't something the engineers could fix before the model went into production. But I don't consider things like that a distortion of the truth.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Hey George. I wanted to know more about your statement "most marketing is a distortion of the truth".

I think how one views marketing is kind of like those "glass half full" arguments.

[George Sepich]

I was probably leaning more towards IM with that statement, but if you drill it down it hold true pretty much across the board. "So quiet all you can hear is the clock" is great copywriting, a great usp, but in the end is the statement really true? Not a chance. But that's not really what I was talking about.

Most of IM consists of dumb if not malicious predators.
I'm lucky that I'm friends with the other 50% for the most part, and many those are fellow Warriors.

George

[Kael41]

Because ethical marketing often takes a backseat to questionable if not immoral tactics?

[George Sepich]

Originally Posted by Kael41

Because ethical marketing often takes a backseat to questionable if not immoral tactics?

Yep, that sums it up pretty well. But the real problem is who actually determines what is ethical or immoral. That debate can go on an on and will never be answered in this thread or anywhere else.

In fact, that is what causes the "big loophole". It let's those who want to take advantage, take advantage, because there is always room for doubt in their methods, and they are well aware of it and actually market to that fact.

George

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

It's pretty easy to generally condemn marketing. It takes skill and commitment to do effective and ethical marketing.

If you never ask for a sale but give away your valuable advice people will speak highly of you--that is, everyone except your family who depends on you to make a living for the time you put in.

We have many people who consider themselves "marketers" but the approval they seek is the approval of those who will never pay them a reasonable amount for the time and effort they put in. The approval of people who are almost strangers is more important to them than succeeding for the people they claim are MOST important to them.

We need to be careful in threads like this we don't demonize effective ethical marketing.

My two cents.

[George Sepich]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

It's pretty easy to generally condemn marketing. It takes skill and commitment to do effective and ethical marketing.

If you never ask for a sale but give away your valuable advice people will speak highly of you--that is, everyone except your family who depends on you to make a living for the time you put in.

We have many people who consider themselves "marketers" but the approval they seek is the approval of those who will never pay them a reasonable amount for the time and effort they put in. The approval of people who are almost strangers is more important to them than succeeding for the people they claim are MOST important to them.

We need to be careful in threads like this we don't demonize effective ethical marketing.

My two cents.

Ethical marketing is in the eye of the beholder. Allen Says can determine what he deems to be ethical marketing in this forum, because its his house.

The US government can determine what's ethical marketing through the FTC and FCC etc.

But it's the very fact that you mention "ethical marketing" that's the problem. There really is no such thing. It's all about crossing the line.
And that line is drawn in different places in every single marketers mind in this forum.

George

[kidino]

Why do IMers lie?

- to make them look good.
- most important, to get you to act

[Don Schenk]

A while back I attended a seminar about what we can and can't say in our advertising - at least here in the USA. I also get to bounce my ideas off the brain of my attorney wife.

One of the concepts taught to us in the seminar was that if you say something is free, then it had better have no costs associated with it. If it is a "free-with" purchase, again there must be no cost for the free item and the with-purchase item needs to be at regular or lower price. You can have a free with a Shipping & Handling charge.

A couple days ago I saw a salesletter by another warrior in which he offeres send a free DVD and only charges the $7 S&H. That is okay, but there must be no additional cost to the purchaser if the item is called "free."

What this fellow does is advertise the DVD as "FREE", with $7 S&H, then the purchaser gets 14 days to try it out after which the purchaser will be charged $49 for the DVD that was advertised as "free."

If there is a charge for the product (even later) it can not be called free. Someone will get him on this one and it could be expensive once a state's Attorney General gets involved.

BTW his sales letter is excellent, and if he would remove the word free he could still have a winner. I remember the old Joe Karbo Ad in which Joe promised to "hold your check" for 30 days while you tried out his book. Joe didn't call the book free.

:-Don

[Jeremy Kelsall]

The answer is simple...

Because people let them!

There are perfect examples here every day...

"Guru X is such a crook - His system wasn't anything like he said it was"

2 days later

" I bought guru X's latest hype filled product and it was nothing but PLR and he won't give me a refund"

1 week later

" I just bought Guru X's home study course for $1,997 that was supossed to show me how to make a gazillion dollars a day, but all it told me to do was submit articles to directories"

And these types of posts come from the same people lol

Marketers that Lie can only do so for as long as the paying public lets them.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by George Sepich

Ethical marketing is in the eye of the beholder. Allen Says can determine what he deems to be ethical marketing in this forum, because its his house.

The US government can determine what's ethical marketing through the FTC and FCC etc.

I get this. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by George Sepich

But it's the very fact that you mention "ethical marketing" that's the problem. There really is no such thing. It's all about crossing the line.
And that line is drawn in different places in every single marketers mind in this forum.

Missing the point here. At least, it seems to me you are saying: "There isn't any definition of ethical that can be generally accepted." Is this your point? How is "crossing the line" any more precise a definition than "ethical"? Somehow I think I am missing what you are trying to communicate.

[Lance K]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

I though there already was a running thread about this exact marketer and the situation.

I think you may be right.

Are There Really Just 82 seats left??...(VERY Sneaky)

[George Sepich]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

I get this. Makes sense.



Missing the point here. At least, it seems to me you are saying: "There isn't any definition of ethical that can be generally accepted." Is this your point? How is "crossing the line" any more precise a definition than "ethical"? Somehow I think I am missing what you are trying to communicate.

There is no difference. It's all about semantics and perception. That is the real problem I was trying to get across. There is no true standard when it comes to ethics. Not Law, Not Allen Says, it comes down to your own personal values, and I guess to sum my statements up, when it comes to IM'ers as a whole, that is not a good thing.

George

[Steven Wagenheim]

This is why I will never be more than a low six figure a year earner.

I hate all the overblown product launches with all the rah, rah, rah and
outrageous claims.

I hate the sales pages that make it sound like you're going to be a
millionaire over night.

I hate how they tell you that you better get it NOW or tomorrow it will all
be gone when the truth is, 4 weeks later, they open up the damn offer
again anyway due to "popular demand". Bull sh*t.

When I sell out a product...it's sold out. Ask the people who email me and
get all pissed off because I say NO.

This industry has such a lousy reputation that I am sometimes ashamed
to be apart of it...which is why I have never done a huge product launch
and probably never will.

You JV partners promoting, whatever, take a look at the emails you get
from the merchant about how the launch is going, bragging about how
many opt ins, sharing stats for each affiliate to get everybody worked
up to go out and sell more, more, more.

It's like a freaking carnival and quite honestly, it totally turns me off on
this industry.

Yeah, I know...I'm in the minority and all you folks involved in this stuff
are going to tell me "that's why I'm only a low 6 figure earned and will
never get beyond that."

Which is kind of my point of this whole post.

I don't want to be part of the rat race. I'm not saying it's unethical or
anything like that and not condemning anybody who participates in
these mega launches. I just hate them, that's all. And quite honestly,
the only reason I even promote any product associated with these
launches (many times reluctantly) is because the product is so damn
good. In fact, it makes me even more angry that the merchant has to
resort to all the "product launch" tactics to sell it, not the least of
which are the upsells, downsells, OTOs, forced continuity and whatever
else they can think of to throw into the mix.

Again, I am not condemning those who participate. The model itself
is not illegal and not even unethical. But it's become so damn
commercialized and overblown that it just turns me off. I realized that
today when I read one of the JV emails summing up the launch to date.

I swear I thought I was reading a sales page.

And that's the problem...everything is geared to sell, sell, sell...even to
the point of selling to the JV partners.

Yeah, I know, that's what makes mega sales. I get it. I'm not disputing
that this stuff works like gangbusters because so many buy into it. But let's
be honest. So many affiliates promote these products having never even
seen them. It's all about the money...good product or not. They know it's
going to be hot, so they jump on it.

And that ultimately, is why IMers lie. They have one goal in mind.

To make money. And many (not all) will do anything to make it.

Me? I just wrote to my list telling them how much I hate these damn
launches.

Not the best way to make a sale, you think?

I think part of the reason I'm semi retired now is because of the distaste
I have for so much of this business.

Then I look at those few folks who I really admire. I won't name names
because I don't want to embarrass anybody. But these are the people
who make me proud to be an IMer. I've never seen them send out an
overhyped email or do any of those things that make me feel like they've
"sold out".

You guys know who you are.

Anyway, I know that my views are probably in the minority and I
accept that. I'm not trying to convert anybody here or judge anybody
here. As I said, what these people do is not illegal or even unethical.

I just don't like the rah, rah, rah and all that other stuff.

Even if it does sell like gangbusters.

[Victoria Gates]

Originally Posted by Marty S

I just got an email from a GURU type marketer pushing the $1 trial offer for Affilliate Classroom offer. Nice layout and great video included and shows a video marketing strategy for CB products. That's fine and I am relatively sure there is some quality information to be had there.

The problem with the landing page is with the ethics involved with a dropping "Only # Seats Left..." sequence that leaves the reader to believe they are viewing an actual countdown of seats left for a $1 webinar.

The page looks top quality, the video sounds convincing, and the JV who sent me the link is well respected - so why do they have to put these phony countdowns on the site?

Just to let you know,I tried the same page on different IPs and the count down starts around 300 and after a few minutes makes it way to 5 and then stops. If you have another IP, it starts the cycle all over again. To me it is just something that makes an otherwise interesting offer rather lame and dubious.

I was turned off by the fakey countdown too. It's a pressure tactic for unseasoned newbies. That said.. Tonight's webinar was amazing and so was the youtube domination one. They actually didnt try to tote products and TAUGHT something useful.

Im very impressed by affiliate classroom.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by George Sepich

There is no difference. It's all about semantics and perception. That is the real problem I was trying to get across. There is no true standard when it comes to ethics. Not Law, Not Allen Says, it comes down to your own personal values, and I guess to sum my statements up, when it comes to IM'ers as a whole, that is not a good thing.

George

Thanks for the clarification--though I guess I got it initially.

I figure in life we are all responsible for our own values anyway. Hopefully most people will choose to enrich others. And you may be right, when it comes to internet marketers it may not be a good thing. At this point I prefer to see the glass as half-full. Sometimes a healthy dose of delusion may be better than reality.

Good discussion George.

[Victoria Gates]

Originally Posted by idevelop

Yes its underhanded and it seems a lot of "internet marketing" strategies are lies.
Ill take the high road even if it means making less money. If my gut feels its dishonest or misleading I wont do it.

Like so many "Free Offers" you see online and here = the amount of hoops you have to jump through to get that "free offer" is hardly worth the time 90% of the time IMO

IMO a great marketer will be honest, give great service and grow his / her brand via great tactical methods that are not misleading.. That takes time.

Yeah but if your honest as I am, nobody listens.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

...Not the best way to make a sale, you think?

Maybe it is the best way. When you look at $/subscriber I suspect you gross more than those who treat subscribers as a commodity.

[Andyhenry]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Hey George. I wanted to know more about your statement "most marketing is a distortion of the truth".

IMHO, from the high altitude view of all marketing in the world, "most marketing" is corporate-level, both B2B & B2C.

Were you including all of that in your "most marketing"? Or just the IM folks?

I mean, classic advertising like Ogilvy's Rolls Royce ad, "so quiet all you can hear is the ticking of the clock" was their attempt to spin the fact that the annoying clock tick wasn't something the engineers could fix before the model went into production. But I don't consider things like that a distortion of the truth.

Even if George won't say it, I will - I'd include ALL marketing.

I've seen so many corporate marketers blatently lie and defend it as 'marketing' that it makes me sick.

There are so many BS artists around in this industry that think marketing means lying to people in order to make sales.

Quite often they'll say things like - "it's about setting expectations" and what they mean is they're setting false expectations to get interest and then will try and realign those expectations at (or after) the point where delivery is required.

The sad truth is that some people think you have to lie to make sales and they're not even of the mindset that any other way is possible.


The fact that some of us are happily doing business without even considering lying let alone intentionally doing it means that's just bs but they really believe it when they say it.

ANdy

[MichaelHiles]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Maybe it is the best way. When you look at $/subscriber I suspect you gross more than those who treat subscribers as a commodity.

IMHO, it IS the best way.

I posted in the income claims thread that I don't make any claims because an individual's success is up to them. I can only tell them what I did to earn myself some money.

In this marketing saturated era, transparency has become the new marketing. Everyone from Andy Beal (who wrote a book about it) to The White House is engaging in the concept - the idea being based on the concept that there is no such thing as privacy in the Twitterverse, so figure out how to embrace your inability to control your own image and work from that point forward.

[MichaelHiles]

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Even if George won't say it, I will - I'd include ALL marketing.

I've seen so many corporate marketers blatently lie and defend it as 'marketing' that it makes me sick.

There are so many BS artists around in this industry that think marketing means lying to people in order to make sales.

Quite often they'll say things like - "it's about setting expectations" and what they mean is they're setting false expectations to get interest and then will try and realign those expectations at (or after) the point where delivery is required.

The sad truth is that some people think you have to lie to make sales and they're not even of the mindset that any other way is possible.


The fact that some of us are happily doing business without even considering lying let alone intentionally doing it means that's just bs but they really believe it when they say it.

ANdy

Awww comeon Andy. I agree that sales people overshoot the runway a lot of times, even in the corporate setting.

But the idea that a corp would set out to systematically promulgate a complete falsehood or manipulation of the truth, and expect to get away with it for very long is pretty rough. Not in this litigous time when everyone from shareholders to customers is looking to sue their way into fame and fortune.

[Victoria Gates]

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Even if George won't say it, I will - I'd include ALL marketing.

I've seen so many corporate marketers blatently lie and defend it as 'marketing' that it makes me sick.

There are so many BS artists around in this industry that think marketing means lying to people in order to make sales.

Quite often they'll say things like - "it's about setting expectations" and what they mean is they're setting false expectations to get interest and then will try and realign those expectations at (or after) the point where delivery is required.

The sad truth is that some people think you have to lie to make sales and they're not even of the mindset that any other way is possible.


The fact that some of us are happily doing business without even considering lying let alone intentionally doing it means that's just bs but they really believe it when they say it.

ANdy

The problem is there is a fine line between "lie" and "promise". A marketer that claims "You could earn this too." is really not lying to you if they are detailing how they did it.

On the other hand if people are outright making things up that is another thing completely. I believe people are too quick to cry wolf at those who use words that make people feel mislead if they fail at the promised method.

[squadron]

If I were you I'd write a blog post about it and then send the marketer an e-mail with a link to your post. I'm sure such a post would generate a lot of comments, especially if you put the name of the promoter and the program in the title of the post. Maybe it would give them cause to think about this strategy?

A lot of people search on such programs in Google before signing up. Here's an example of such a title:

How I nearly got Sucked in to the Acme Training Program by Fred Bloggs

[Ruddy]

Originally Posted by MacFreddie

Because they suck!

They always talk Gross Sales.

They never tell you how much of the 1 Million launch went to affiliates, the labor to produce the product, the fulfillment cost, shipping, their Labor, etc...

The CPA guys never tell you their PPC or marketing cost.

I take everything with a grain of salt when they Speaketh.

Well but how if that "CPA guy" make money by ranking at the top of Google in various keywords in SEO and he only outsources the SEO jobs for around $2000 per month?

[George Sepich]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Thanks for the clarification--though I guess I got it initially.

I figure in life we are all responsible for our own values anyway. Hopefully most people will choose to enrich others. And you may be right, when it comes to internet marketers it may not be a good thing. At this point I prefer to see the glass as half-full. Sometimes a healthy dose of delusion may be better than reality.

Good discussion George.

An important part of being successful in IM or any business is having a positive attitude, and the ability to take forward action. In some instances as you state, " a healthy dose of delusion may be better than reality."

If your positive state of mind can lead to positive results, stay in the "Cult".
Just recognize where you are and don't drink that last glass of "Kool Aid". (Even though Kool aid wasn't really what they drank at Jonestown.

But do I dare start the same "ethics" definition question with "reality"?
I think we may need to get Bill Clinton in this thread to determine what the meaning of "Is" is.

Bottom line to all Warriors. Due your due diligence. Before you invest in an IM product do your research, no matter who is promoting it.

George

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

This is why I will never be more than a low six figure a year earner.

Stephen you don't honestly think you have to lie to make more than "low six figures" do you?

That's a self-fulfilling limiting belief if I ever heard one.

Sure there are lots of guys in this industry with less-than-stellar ethics.

And on the surface it might appear that you must "sell out" and buy into the hype to make any real money.

But come on...

You and I both know there are plenty of people making serious money online who have never done a product launch (not that there's anything wrong with them), never used sneaky marketing tactics (like the fake countdown timer etc) and never flat-out lied to make a sale.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Stephen you don't honestly think you have to lie to make more than "low six figures" do you?

That's a self-fulfilling limiting belief if I ever heard one.

Sure there are lots of guys in this industry with less-than-stellar ethics.

And on the surface it might appear that you must "sell out" and buy into the hype to make any real money.

But come on...

You and I both know there are plenty of people making serious money online who have never done a product launch (not that there's anything wrong with them), never used sneaky marketing tactics (like the fake countdown timer etc) and never flat-out lied to make a sale.

Sure, there are exceptions. I'm not saying there aren't. But look at most
of this industry objectively. Again, I can't mention any names because
I'll just get this post deleted. But it's the same thing day after day
after day.

And I'll bet dollars to donuts that the marketers who are making a killing
doing things the way I'd be comfortable doing them are mostly outside
of the make money online niche or at the very least are not selling make
money products in that niche but instead selling software and things that
are actually useful.

But if I'm wrong, please show me the make money product sales pages
that don't sound like something out of a 3 ring circus.

I've yet to see one, especially in the Clickbank top 50.

But I'm more than willing to be shown one specifically referring to making
money online that isn't overhyped and overblown and is a top seller.

[George Sepich]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Stephen you don't honestly think you have to lie to make more than "low six figures" do you?

That's a self-fulfilling limiting belief if I ever heard one.

Sure there are lots of guys in this industry with less-than-stellar ethics.

And on the surface it might appear that you must "sell out" and buy into the hype to make any real money.

But come on...

You and I both know there are plenty of people making serious money online who have never done a product launch (not that there's anything wrong with them), never used sneaky marketing tactics (like the fake countdown timer etc) and never flat-out lied to make a sale.

That was Steven's version of being modest I think. He has his formula down where he can make whatever he wants to make. Having worked closely with Steve in the past , I'm pretty sure Steve was just trying to convey that he doesn't buy into using a "hype" strategy. I know that to be very true.

George

[MacFreddie]

Originally Posted by Ruddy

Well but how if that "CPA guy" make money by ranking at the top of Google in various keywords in SEO and he only outsources the SEO jobs for around $2000 per month?

Well then he would be Stupid.

Give me 1 reason not to use PPC if you are getting a ROI?

You don't leave money on the table just because it cost $$$ to advertise. You work all media as long as you are getting a return on your dollar. If you're Smart you will collect names and then work the list again.

I know some of the best CPA goobers in the country, they all use PPC, PPV, SEO, Banner ads, etc...

To do otherwise would be foolish.

I don't like the fact that many CPA goobers brag about making a 100K a month but they fail to tell you it cost $60,000 for media cost Plus their time.

[Marty S]

Yes, I actually have no doubt they have something valuable to say in the webinar, and the quality sales pitch is something I would love to put together myself. Given that, I was just simply dumbfounded why they would put something so phony and foolish in an otherwise good effort.

Steve thanks for your comments (if you are in the minority, I am in your company then) and I subscribed to your list!

[Marty S]

Originally Posted by Lance K

I think you may be right.

Are There Really Just 82 seats left??...(VERY Sneaky)

I missed this entirely, thank you for pointing it out. Maybe the threads can be combined.

[Josef_Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Marty S

I just got an email from a GURU type marketer pushing the $1 trial offer for Affilliate Classroom offer. Nice layout and great video included and shows a video marketing strategy for CB products. That's fine and I am relatively sure there is some quality information to be had there.

The problem with the landing page is with the ethics involved with a dropping "Only # Seats Left..." sequence that leaves the reader to believe they are viewing an actual countdown of seats left for a $1 webinar.

The page looks top quality, the video sounds convincing, and the JV who sent me the link is well respected - so why do they have to put these phony countdowns on the site?

Just to let you know,I tried the same page on different IPs and the count down starts around 300 and after a few minutes makes it way to 5 and then stops. If you have another IP, it starts the cycle all over again. To me it is just something that makes an otherwise interesting offer rather lame and dubious.

Well, if you feel the issue is important enough for you to air out your fustrations on the ethics on promoting a product the way other people want to promote it, than you found the place.

Is it right?

No.

You got your answer. Wanna shut 'em down for trying to get their service out to as many people as they possibly can to help others succeed. Or is it that they are making more money then you think they are supposed to?

What's the real reason for even going through the trouble to find out if the "Classroom size" even matters?

Some marketers honor the limited copies or seating arrangment. Some don't. Either way, your still helping alot of people.

Dunno, I'd just find something else better to do with my time than to pick apart someones creative work (especially if it's helping alot of people).

That's just me.

[David Mcalorum]

Entirely true, it is more times than not, a lie. The problem is a lot of IMers feel they need that call to action, especially to hook the NEWER marketers and internet crowd that is skeptical, but will fall for such a ploy. It is dishonest, and from what I've seen generally frowned upon. But again, many IMers will throw something like that in to pull every last dollar in. Sometimes they genuinely need that last dollar, but all too often they're struck with that spot of greed. It all boils down to what type of person you are, and if you can stick yourself to that higher position of integrity.

[Marty S]

Originally Posted by Josef_Benjamin

Dunno, I'd just find something else better to do with my time than to pick apart someones creative work

Ahem... what you call creative, I call deceit, and this forum is a good as as any for Goobers to read and learn.

Am I jealous? I suppose I always envy goobers who can pull in multiple $10,000 days, but when I look closer as to the ethics involved, I would have to say, no - not jealous.

Hey, I am doing all right here in my own World Headquarters, so I am kind of over all that, you know Josef. I try to contribute here and bring issues into the spotlight as well as learn from others and their responses. Sad to say, yours was not one of them, but all the best to you anyway.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Marty S

World Headquarters

That's funny...I am writing from my World Headquarters as well!

[Martin Luxton]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Stephen you don't honestly think you have to lie to make more than "low six figures" do you?

That's a self-fulfilling limiting belief if I ever heard one.

Sure there are lots of guys in this industry with less-than-stellar ethics.

And on the surface it might appear that you must "sell out" and buy into the hype to make any real money.

But come on...

You and I both know there are plenty of people making serious money online who have never done a product launch (not that there's anything wrong with them), never used sneaky marketing tactics (like the fake countdown timer etc) and never flat-out lied to make a sale.

Steven,

I have to agree with Kyle here, though he's talking about online in general. I don't think it holds so true for IM.

When I started in IM 3 years ago I had a very clear (and naive) picture of what a website should be and what I wanted to do in terms of marketing.

Because of that I had a very confusing and depressing time. I looked at all the tactics and products on offer, found many of them distasteful and/or crap, and really struggled. I just couldn't jump on the bandwagons.

I kept thinking the problem was ME. Now, I have the experience and knowledge to realize that I was looking at things the wrong way.

To any newbies reading this thread I would say one thing.

If you notice marketers using a tactic which seems unethical or distasteful or illegal to you, go with that feeling. Don't be swayed by those bogus arguments

"But everyone's doing it"

"You'll never succeed online if you don't do it"

"It's the best way to increase conversions"

It's hard to make a stand against the "perceived wisdom" of the herd, but you don't have to do it publicly and get into a slanging match. Just keep saying to yourself

"That is not I road I wish to travel"

Even now, when I get sent JV offers for overhyped high ticket items, there's that little voice trying to tempt me "$500 for just putting a teensy weensy link on your blog".

I can't do it. I can't screw other people the way I have been screwed in the past.

If your take on this is "I've been screwed, so it's OK to screw other people", then you need to have a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

Martin

[Karen Connell]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Steven,

I have to agree with Kyle here, though he's talking about online in general. I don't think it holds so true for IM.

When I started in IM 3 years ago I had a very clear (and naive) picture of what a website should be and what I wanted to do in terms of marketing.

Because of that I had a very confusing and depressing time. I looked at all the tactics and products on offer, found many of them distasteful and/or crap, and really struggled. I just couldn't jump on the bandwagons.

I kept thinking the problem was ME. Now, I have the experience and knowledge to realize that I was looking at things the wrong way.

To any newbies reading this thread I would say one thing.

If you notice marketers using a tactic which seems unethical or distasteful or illegal to you, go with that feeling. Don't be swayed by those bogus arguments

"But everyone's doing it"

"You'll never succeed online if you don't do it"

"It's the best way to increase conversions"

It's hard to make a stand against the "perceived wisdom" of the herd, but you don't have to do it publicly and get into a slanging match. Just keep saying to yourself

"That is not I road I wish to travel"

Even now, when I get sent JV offers for overhyped high ticket items, there's that little voice trying to tempt me "$500 for just putting a teensy weensy link on your blog".

I can't do it. I can't screw other people the way I have been screwed in the past.

If your take on this is "I've been screwed, so it's OK to screw other people", then you need to have a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

Martin

Hi all,

As a relative 'newbie' at IM, I did think that the big hype was how business was conducted online.

After reading some of the sales pages and emails, I was less than enthusiastic to mirror some of the questionable tactics - whatever the rewards.

It just didn't sit right to tell blatant lies - all in the name of sales, I am not that desperate.

Yes, I want to make a living online, but not at the expense of my integrity.

If you are swayed by the squillions that are promised in a lot of the pre-launch emails you will be disappointed and disheartened.

How many newbies to IM and WF are telling you to 'see how I made $70,349 in one month' when, in reality, most of them are still struggling to make their first $100?

Stephen and Martin's posts are right on the button for me.

Karen

[leebo1010]

Originally Posted by Lance K

I think you may be right.

Are There Really Just 82 seats left??...(VERY Sneaky)

Very sneaky or very clever? It's like those CPA offers for flat screen TV's or Acai Berry Diet crap that counts down 15 minutes before that offer expires. It's funny because we're looking at this from a marketer's perspective and we know that that countdown bar was definitely hokey...

However, they built that lander to market to the newbies or the wannabe's of marketing and those dang timers just plain work for the inexperienced consumer.

Thank goodness we don't fall under that last category (anymore )

[abelacts]

Not all marketers lie. But ethical marketers are a rare breed. It happens in any industry and there are always someone who will just do anything to get what they want including bending on ethics and integrity. It's up to you to decide if you want to deal with this kind of people.

[dclozen]

Originally Posted by George Sepich

It's because most of marketing is a distortion of the truth, even if it's not an outright lie.
Twenty or thirty years ago, most marketing was done by your traditonal media such as TV, Radio, Newspapers, Direct Mailings, and you can always throw in your Door to Door Salesman, and other old time salesmanship. There was certainly plenty of hype then too, and lies too. It's just magnified on the Internet.

The reality is now anybody with an Internet Connection can market, make false claims, and do it all pretty much for free. If they are marketing on the internet, that makes them an IM'er.

There are plenty of well know names in IM that have made it big by exaggerating their income by faking it until they make it, and then turn around and tell you their story about how six months, or one year or two years ago they were just like you, struggling to make it. But they found a "method" or "system" blah blah blah.

To be fair, some really do, but most do not. Be scared, be wary, due your due diligence when it comes to IM, and never, never feel bad when you ask tough questions and the "Guru" or whoever acts hurt like you are questioning their very integrity.

Bottom line, the majority (really the majority) of IM is total crap. Trust nobody unless they have earned it.

Yes, my comments seem harsh and jaded. Take them or leave them. Be careful out there, you can still succeed.

George

All I can say is Amen. I've spent a large part of my youth in Sales. and have always said that salesmen are paid to lie.

Fortunately, I managed to move to programming and got out of sales at a early age...

NOW THEY'VE PULLED ME BACK IN...

[ebizman87]

I saw similar tactic used for "5 bucks a day" ebook.Everytime you refresh your page, it will show different price..

Don't know why must they do it when you can just sell it ethically to achieve long term customer relationship as well as loyalty