Here's what to charge for articles and writing services

[Anthony J Namata]

Those prices are outrageous, you'd have to be a corporation to afford that.

[TMG Enterprises]

you'd have to be a corporation to afford that

And that is probably their target market. Nothing wrong with that.

Tina

[Alexa Smith]

My clients (on both sides of the Atlantic) can claim my writing fees as a legitimate tax-deductible business expense whether they're registered as a corporation or not. I'm not aware that being incorporated necessarily makes it any more easily "affordable" for them, but I suppose that might vary according to local tax rules.

Oh well, it's interesting how perceptions vary: I was thinking that $35 seemed a little on the low side for a 750/1,000-word article, myself. I wouldn't normally produce 1,000 words for $35, and I'd expect a retired journalist to have more experience than I have.

[Kevin AKA Hubcap]

Lisa

I'm not mad at ya.

To me it makes good business sense to charge what the market will bear. Why leave money on the table?

Kevin

Originally Posted by lisag

Keyword: Yet

When you build your reputation, and your confidence, you'll raise your rates. I started out writing $5 articles until I paid my dues and then raised my rates a notch at a time. I haven't hit the 'what the market will bear' ceiling yet because I know people who charge more than I do.

I look at it this way.

I win 30% of my bids. That means my competitors win 70% all combined.

But, here's the key: I work 30% as hard as they do and I make more money doing it.

If person "A" bids $10 for a 500 word article and I bid $50, and assuming it takes us each 1 hour to write it. I made $50 per hour and they made $10.

They have to do 5 times the work I do to earn the same amount. I can lose 4 bids to them and still end up with the same amount of money in my pocket.

And the good news is, while I'm not writing those other 4 articles, I'm building my passive income sites.

Here's an interesting story...

Before I met my husband he was a private investigator who specialized in working white collar crime cases for corporate clients. He lived in the Caribbean at the time on one of the well-known islands.

Many U.S. and European companies had business interests in that region and would hire him over local PI's because he had a good courtroom demeanor and wrote excellent reports in business English. The locals were not as polished as him.

He charged New York City fees and his clients gladly paid them. One client in NY would fly him in, first class, to work on cases for them. Between his rates, air fare and Per Diem, it cost them a bundle.

He once told me "There were probably 10 PI's within 10 blocks of that client's office who could have done the same quality work I did and for less money. But they hire me because their friends tell them I'm the best."

He also said clients were enamored by what he called the "James Bond mystique." After all, a PI who lived on a Caribbean island must have some good connections, right?

Another quick story if you're not bored yet.

We have a friend who owns a foreign car repair garage. Well he did; He's dead now...

He specialized in top-end cars. He charged much less than his competitors and did as good a job as they did. His business was terrible. He hired a business consultant who told him to...

Paint the garage bays white.

Apply white high-gloss concrete sealer to the floors.

Dress his mechanics in white coveralls and have them change throughout the day when dirty.

Dress his service writers in coats and ties.

Serve food and beverage in the waiting room for free.

Provide Internet and plenty of electrical outlets and work stations.

Create a cigar-smoking room

Buy a limo to drive his customers home or to work and lose the mini-van.

RAISE HIS RATES HIGHER THAN HIS COMPETITORS

My friend died a rich man.

Everything, EVERYTHING is a matter of perception. Please understand. I'm not knocking anyone's rates or capabilities. I am simply saying the marketplace is very elastic, and it's very big.

You and I and everyone else here are not your NORMAL consumers. We look at the market differently because we are market insiders. But no matter how many WF members there are, we represent a tiny pinprick of the total universe of people who consume our products and services.

Just like I know there is a huge universe of prospects outside of RentACoder that I have barely begun to tap, there is also a huge universe of people who think $50 is chump change to pay for something that's going to be carrying their name as Author.

Your mileage may vary...

[Paul Hancox]

Originally Posted by Anthony J Namata

Those prices are outrageous, you'd have to be a corporation to afford that.

Why outrageous? If you're running a business, isn't it mainly about RETURN ON INVESTMENT?

So if you spend $30 on an article, which generates you $100 of business, is that a bad investment?

For example, how much are people willing to pay for a good, authority blog?

Take Copyblogger, with 70,000 subscribers after 3 1/2 years. I estimate there's about 1,000 articles on that blog. If he were to sell it tomorrow, it would EASILY fetch $100,000... which is over $100 per article. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to buy it for $1 million plus.

What is THAT per article?

The only reason it's worth that is because of the CONTENT. Sure, he has tons of valuable backlinks, but that's also because of the CONTENT.

Content is king. And I guarantee that, as more and more people become writers on the Internet, people will become more savvy about WHERE TO GO for their content.

If you're making money with short term bum marketing, then yes... those prices are "outrageous" simply because you're limiting your thinking to what each article can return back to you.

But if you're thinking like a business, ie. long term... then good quality articles can easily earn you $100 or more.

Of course, it DOES depend on what you want the content for. If you just want thousands of backlinks, then sure... average quality is OK.

But even then, might you be missing out on a potential CUSTOMER actually reading those bog standard, churned out articles?

And I'm aware some people deliberately use poor quality so the visitor has little choice but to click an Adsense ad. Even so, there are probably far bigger markets where real, quality and highly researched content will build your AUTHORITY, SUBSCRIBER BASE and ultimately your SALES... making you far more money than "average" articles claiming to be of high quality.

[Karen Connell]

Originally Posted by CliveG

Hi Karen,

As I said to Jeremy, I did not mean to be unfair.

If you don't mind, let me ask you some questions about your last 500ish word article - give a very general answer if you don't want to quote figures.

How much did you charge for it?
How much do you think it was worth?
What would you have paid for it?

Cheers, Clive

Hi Clive,

What I charged is beside the point ($8). What matters to me is that I am happy with what I was paid and my client was happy with what I delivered.

That to me, is a win win situation.

Sure, I'd love to charge $50 an article but I won't. I'm happy to know that I can deliver what the client wants and get paid what I ask.

Yes, my work is probably worth more, particularly the stuff that involves a lot of research, but I'll stick where I am for now.

Karen

[marciayudkin]

Just to inject another dimension into this discussion... I get $395 for writing a press release, which is about $1 - $1.30 a word, and my rates are actually on the low side for my market. Some of my colleagues charge even more - $500 to $800.

When I last wrote for national magazines about 8 years ago, I got $1 - $1.25 a word. It would be $1.25 - $1.50 a word now.

The writing market you are talking about in this thread pays a fraction of what other writers are getting.

Hmm, now what do you think is the difference between a $.04 a word writer and a $1.00 a word writer?

Marcia Yudkin

[TMG Enterprises]

what do you think is the difference between a $.04 a word writer and a $1.00 a word writer?

Most of the time, the difference is only in their target market. You can find the same quality at either end of the spectrum.

Tina

[TMG Enterprises]

i copy the articles

If you're talking about copying someone else's articles, that would make you a thief. But if you read the OP, it has nothing to do with the discussion of what to charge for writing services.

Tina

[Bev Clement]

The prices from the OP seem low to me.

If I have said it once, I have said it many times, each writer has to decide what they want to write for and charge their rates. What I think is a problem when a writer gets paid a certain figure per word, and they complain, but don't do anything about it. Both fast food restaurants and 5 star restaurants live in harmony, the difference, they have different business models.

Within IM article writers who are starting out seem to be told they have to work for peanuts, try telling an article marketer the same thing and see what they say. I read a book yesterday written by a warrior who was saying how he found cheap writers, because the standard on the forum was to pay $10 per article. That was written late last year, how times change.

People know they have to have content for their sites, whether that is for backlinks/directories or on blogs, lenses or anything else they do. Many people don't like paying to have content, yet without it they wouldn't have anything to please Google. I know for some it doesn't matter what they put on their site, and at the end of the day they run their business the way they want.

My complaint would be that too many marketers are boxing in writers to writing for peanuts when the writer wants to earn more.

This is the main reason I rarely work for IMers because there is more money to be earned outside of IM

[DeePower]

The "eye brow raising quote" is in the eye of the beholder if you'll excuse a bad pun, well sort of pun.

I've received nearly $1,000 for a 750 word article, not sales copy or letter, but article. That may raise a few eyebrows here but was a standard rate for the magazine I wrote it for.

My books have received 5 figure advances (not counting the decimal place) that would raise eyebrows for IMer's if I quoted that to ghostwrite a book.

Our business plan writing averages about $80 per hour. I can see those brows shooting up again.

As far as looking at industry standards those are pretty much averages. The least I've ever charged to write an article was $10 (400 words) and that was for a friend on a subject I knew well. I didn't even want to charge her but she insisted. The most I've ever been paid for an article was the $1,000 for 750 words. So my average is $439.00 per 500 word article.

Anybody want to hire me to write a 500 word article for $439?

Dee

[stumblerum]

I think LisaG has really nailed it in this thread.

I really don't get why a writer would put so much effort into writing 50 X $10 articles which would take a week when they could write a single article and make the same (either offline or by providing value adds to online content) in far less time.

That being said, I have personally paid everything from 1cent per word through to $1 per word for writers and would not change what I paid a single one of them.

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by stumblerum

I think LisaG has really nailed it in this thread.

I really don't get why a writer would put so much effort into writing 50 X $10 articles which would take a week when they could write a single article and make the same (either offline or by providing value adds to online content) in far less time.

That being said, I have personally paid everything from 1cent per word through to $1 per word for writers and would not change what I paid a single one of them.

In theory, that makes a lot of sense, but in reality, the typical content writer in IM does not have access to a customer base willing to pay that much, regardless of the "Quality", which is subjective at best.

You also have to consider ROI as Paul Hancox mentioned, but here is where I disagree with Paul - paying $30 for an article which earns $100 is fine, but paying $5 for an article of comparable quality is even better.

With all due respect to the professional writers out there, I think the point you're missing is that content writing in IM is a completely different animal than freelancing for book and magazine publishers. While you may be able to command higher rates in some cases for content, those are exceptions, rather than the norms.

For me, the bottom line is this - if a $5 article is going to return $100 in revenue, is your $50 article (10 times as much) going to return $1,000 (10 times as much) in revenue? And yet, 10 of those $5 articles will provide that $1,000 return.

It's also not likely to provide any additional SEO benefit either, which is the other arguement I've heard. And ten pages of content for the price of one is better in my book

I'm not knocking any of you looking for those top rates at all - but realistically, content writing is never going to routinely pay you what you want in most cases. Yeah, there are exceptions, but as your clients discover that decent content can be had for much less, they're going to bail out on you sooner or later.

Just saying...

[lisag]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

In theory, that makes a lot of sense, but in reality, the typical content writer in IM does not have access to a customer base willing to pay that much, regardless of the "Quality", which is subjective at best.

Just saying...

There are atypical content writers who work with atypical buyers. My point all along has been "purpose". If your purpose is to garner links, you don't need me or anyone else who charges my rates.

If your purpose is to raise your visibility as a SME in a particular field, I might be a good choice.

That being said, I have clients who hire me for SEO, at my rate, for whatever reason they choose. Many of them know full well what the typical content writer chooses, yet they come back to me repeatedly.

My husband pays double digits for his cigars. One of his buddies buys a 6 pack for $8. They are both quite satisfied with their cigars.

[Sean Ski]

It all depends on what the buyer's looking for... If they just want a bunch of articles for EZA then its going to be dirt cheap slave wages... I guess if they want an article for some special reason then they'd pay more.

Some people talk about how they can charge so much now but they have months and years or experience to back them up... For the person who's just starting out it's an absolute draaagggg.... I'd tell all the newbies to invest in writing your own content and not someone else's unless you absolutely need the money.

[Bev Clement]

I totally agree with BigMike, and it is one reason I rarely write for IMers. Most of my work, which is higher paid is for people outside of IM who require different works.

The biggest problem with writers is being unable to market themselves and find other forms of writing which does and always will pay a higher price. Not because it is ripping off the clients, but the work expected is different.

If Mike wanted me to write some basic articles on a niche, he wouldn't expect me to spend the next week doing in-depth research to write those articles. The rate should take into consideration the work involved and the brief a client has given.

I have seen people saying they would do exactly the same article (research and writing) regardless of whether they are paid $10 or $40. That is wrong, charging a higher rate just because you can isn't the way to run any business.

[Paul Hancox]

Hi Mike

I understand what you're saying. It all comes down to the purpose of the writing.

If someone just wants 100 articles simply to have 100 backlinks on a bunch of article sites, then by all means, hire a cheap writer and spin out 100 of them. (Even so, I'd suggest you wouldn't want crap articles with your name on them, just in case a potential customer reads them!)

However, if you want to build an AUTHORITY blog or site that skillfully presells, and that builds you as an authority, I doubt spun material is going to have the same effect as at least somewhat original, high quality writing.

Consider: There are literally MILLIONS of blogs out there, and that number is growing every day. This is a pure guess, but I'll bet something like 99% of them are read by virtually nobody.

That's because their content is... permit me to be blunt here... either poor, or simply average.

Pick any decent sized niche, and you'll find the ones who dominate that niche are almost universally the ones that put out high quality, fairly original and well-written content.

Dating? Double Your Dating. High quality dating newsletter.

Copywriting? Copyblogger. High quality blog.

This is true now, and I predict it will be also true 10 years in the future.

Ultimately, they became authorities in their field because PEOPLE first see them as authorities in their niche, and Google merely follows.

How many people here are subscribed to Paul Myers' newsletter? Ask yourself WHY. Would you still be subscribed if he dropped his regular content in favour of $1 articles on internet marketing?

Think about it.

Sure, Monsieur Myers has his own voice. He's pretty original. He writes well.

And that's precisely my point. That's why he has 60 billion subscribers.

Original, high quality, super informative content that doesn't look like it's been churned out from some article mill.

Long term, THAT'S what going to enable you to dominate your niche.

That's why you're still subscribed, along with the rest of the known world.

Sure, if you can get that kind of quality for $5 rather than $10 or $20 or $30, go for it. I'm all for bargain hunting.

But the lower you pay your writer, the less time they are going to spend researching, coming up with original thoughts and ideas, or really even caring about your readership.

You've turned them into people who will do the minimum for you, because you've paid them the minimum you feel you can get away with.

Here's a challenge I suggest to anyone reading this right now.

If you're used to paying your writer $10 an article, try this little experiment. Pay them DOUBLE. Pay them $20.

But...

Tell them you want an article which makes the reader SALIVATE for more, makes them go, "Wow... I never thought about it like this before... I must subscribe to this person's blog!"

A skillful writer can do this, IF they are motivated enough... the main motivation, of course, is money. (A poor writer won't be able to, because he or she lacks the skills at any price.)

If they are a decent writer, you might find the simple act of paying them double what they're used to will massively increase the QUALITY and HOOKABILITY* of the content they provide you with.

* Hookability; a made up term to describe content that is so good, it makes you want to read more, by subscribing to the writer's blog or email subscription.

If you are paying as low as you can get away with, then guess what... your writer will do as little as he or she can get away with.

It works both ways.

By the way folks, I'm serious about the challenge. Find a good writer. Then pay them DOUBLE their usual rate (and tell them you want writing that is going to Wow the reader).

That writer will LOVE YOU for it, and will put their heart and soul into crafting writing that will have potential customers coming back for more.

Seriously, if you don't notice a difference, find a different writer.

When you take a good writer out of "let's see how many articles I can knock out in an hour" mode, and into "let's show you what I can do when I'm motivated" mode, you WILL notice a big difference.

[stumblerum]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

In theory, that makes a lot of sense, but in reality, the typical content writer in IM does not have access to a customer base willing to pay that much.

If you have access to the internet you have access to those customers. The only thing that stands between a decent writer and a decent paycheck is a bit of research on how to get to those customers.

[lisag]

Originally Posted by stumblerum

If you have access to the internet you have access to those customers. The only thing that stands between a decent writer and a decent paycheck is a bit of research on how to get to those customers.

Yep. You get it.

[tomw]

I know this may not be contributing much to the debate, but at all of the rates mentioned I just can't understand why any decent writer would write web copy for internet marketers at all.

In the UK, the average cost of a freelance junior copywriter is £200 a day. We pay many of our regular senior writers upwards of £400. Two or three, in particular, earn considerably more.

Whether we commission them to write ads, scripts, DM packs or web copy their rates are the same and most of our projects are measured in weeks not hours.

Being ranked number one writer on Rent-A-Coder, for example, means nothing if the averaged top rate is $50 per hour when compared to that of kids fresh out of college that I pay £50 per hour.

I just don't get it.

I don't mean to single you out Lisa, but since you appear to be the peacock with the prettiest plumage, I took your situation and rate as a yardstick.

I just don't understand why you and other writers that purport considerable talent don't offer your freelance services to advertising and marketing agencies or write for marketing departments directly as opposed to scrabbling about hoping to win bids against the $1 dollar article brigade.

Perhaps this is something to think about when considering the transition to a senior writer on much higher rates.

Tom

[Yogini]

One thing I want to add is that in this thread and others similar sometimes there are statements or insinuation that someone who charges 3 to 5 dollars an article doesn't value themselves, has low self-esteem or is not properly treated. Aside from many of the good points mentioned above, I think another factor has to do with the hassles of marketing.

It may be much easier for someone to have a link in their signature here then to spend the time trying to figure out how to reach certain markets. Some people hate marketing and it is worth it to them to not spend the time figuring where to target (and posting to) forums, researching jv partners or developing contact lists that may lead to higher paying situations. It doesn't mean someone has no self-worth or that they don't value themselves. It is a choice that people make which they may change down the road but can be seen as a better use of time than advertising oneself elsewhere or researching this question.

Debbie

[JakeDaly]

There are offshore article companies that can give you decent, usable content for $1. There are great, new writers currently offering their articles for $2 in an attempt to gain clientele. There are mediocre writers charging $5,000 for a sales page. The trick is that YOU have to set your own prices and use marketing, leverage, talent & experience to eventually get the money you want for your writing services.

[lisag]

Originally Posted by Yogini

It may be much easier for someone to have a link in their signature here then to spend the time trying to figure out how to reach certain markets.

Debbie

You are right Debbie.

Here's an article I wrote back in 2004 when I was new at RentACoder and only had 100 projects under my belt. However, what I wrote then is as true now even though I have nearly 1700 projects through them.

And even though RAC is no longer my sole source of business, it got me the start I needed back then when my rate was .01 per word.

Taking a Closer Look at the Rent a Coder Fee

[stumblerum]

Originally Posted by tomw

I know this may not be contributing much to the debate, but at all of the rates mentioned I just can't understand why any decent writer would write web copy for internet marketers at all.

In the UK, the average cost of a freelance junior copywriter is £200 a day. We pay many of our regular senior writers upwards of £400. Two or three, in particular, earn considerably more.

Whether we commission them to write ads, scripts, DM packs or web copy their rates are the same and most of our projects are measured in weeks not hours.

Being ranked number one writer on Rent-A-Coder, for example, means nothing if the averaged top rate is $50 per hour when compared to kids fresh out of college that I pay £50 per hour.

I just don't get it.

I don't mean to single you out Lisa, but since you appear to be the peacock with the brightest feathers, I took your situation and rate as a yardstick.

I just don't understand why you and other writers that purport considerable talent don't offer your freelance services to advertising and marketing agencies or write for marketing departments directly as opposed to scrabbling about hoping to win bids against the $1 dollar article brigade.

Perhaps this is something to think about when considering the transition to a senior writer on much higher rates.

Tom

If you let me wake up when I want, only do the work I want to do, work in my underwear (not pretty), tell certain clients that they aren't a good fit and let me work on my own projects when and where I see fit, then I will come and work for you!

Oh, and I'll need a laptop with an internet connection that works from the beach in Bali.

[cherylwright]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Jeremy's right. If you can get $50 for a 500-word article, Lisa, more power to ya. But I'd venture to say - and I don't think it's a stretch - that someone else charging half that could do the job just as well. There's getting what the market will bear (what you're doing), and then there's being a smart buyer (what the person paying half your rate does).

John

John,

I charge similar rates to Lisa for articles, and my charge for sales pages is in multiple hundreds.

I have no trouble getting work, and in fact, I'm often banked up six weeks ahead.

My clients are mostly repeat clients who know I provide quality work the first time, and they don't have to stuff around with rewrites and tweaks.

It comes down to two things:

1) The quality provided by the writer in question;
2) Whether or not the writer believes they can charge (and get) higher rates.

For the record, I have never charged piddly rates for my work. I'm comfortable with my fees because I know my work is worth the money.

It's really no different to the unknown marketer who charges $7 for an ebook, or another better known, high reputation marketer who charges $97 for something similiar.






Cheryl

[cherylwright]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

My clients (on both sides of the Atlantic) can claim my writing fees as a legitimate tax-deductible business expense whether they're registered as a corporation or not. I'm not aware that being incorporated necessarily makes it any more easily "affordable" for them, but I suppose that might vary according to local tax rules.

Oh well, it's interesting how perceptions vary: I was thinking that $35 seemed a little on the low side for a 750/1,000-word article, myself. I wouldn't normally produce 1,000 words for $35, and I'd expect a retired journalist to have more experience than I have.

When I was writing for magazines regularly, I was getting several hundred dollars for 1200 word articles. (This is only in the last couple of years.)

Sure, they needed more research than 'content writing', but that amount of money was not unreasonable, and in fact, was very low. I know writers who get $2,000 and more for the same sort of articles, but in higher class magazines.

The bottom line is that writers need to make a reasonable income. Would you guys work your backside off for $3-$10 for nearly an hour's work? I very much doubt it.

My normal rate for copywriting is $140 per hour.





Cheryl

[Traffic-Bug]

With the growth of offshoring, virtual assistance concept, outsourcing, etc. if writers price highly they will lose out to other cheaply priced writers overseas with comparable quality. Writing is a task that can be done remotely (teleworking) hence only the professionally branded, well-known writers are able to command a hefty sum for writing. For normal small biz writing, the market is always attacked by cheaper writers overseas ultimately it is up to the buyer to decide on quality point/price point and decide what he wants. Caveat emptor.

[cherylwright]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

For me, the bottom line is this - if a $5 article is going to return $100 in revenue, is your $50 article (10 times as much) going to return $1,000 (10 times as much) in revenue? And yet, 10 of those $5 articles will provide that $1,000 return.

It's also not likely to provide any additional SEO benefit either, which is the other arguement I've heard. And ten pages of content for the price of one is better in my book

Are you sure about that? My specialty is rewriting sales pages. I've had clients come to me because they've had 'cheap' writers create their pages. And that's all good and fine except the pages don't convert.

So then they come to me to fix the problem.

Instead of paying one writer once at a low fee, they end up paying two writers - one cheap, and the other - a professional - who actually does what they want.

In regard to SEO, most of those $5 article writers will write a lot of garbage around your keywords and phrases. If you secure a professional writer, we'll actually make sure your articles make sense and are informative.

So instead of having people come to your site via the keywords, then click out immediately when they encounter rubbish, they stay and look around. They might even buy something...




Cheryl

[cherylwright]

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Most of the time, the difference is only in their target market. You can find the same quality at either end of the spectrum.

Tina

Most writers don't care about their target market. They only care about getting the job done, and getting a reasonable fee for their work.

The only time I worry about target market is that I don't go after micro and Mom & Pop businesses. They can't afford me.




Cheryl

[stumblerum]

Originally Posted by Traffic-Bug

With the growth of offshoring, virtual assistance concept, outsourcing, etc. if writers price highly they will lose out to other cheaply priced writers overseas with comparable quality.

If that were the case, then Mitsubishi would have bankrupted Mercedes and BMW in the 80s and 90s. Their cars were technically better, more durable, more practical and cheaper. Yet BMW and MErcedes were in as much demand as ever.

Price is simply ONE element of marketing and it really isn't an important one if you know how to market.

[discrat]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

That is an unfair statement. There are a lot of good writers at a fair price floating around the internet.

You don't have to pay some one $1 a word to get decent content.

I totally agree with this. This is absolute lunacy why in God's name anyone would pay so much for a 750 word Squidoo Lens.

Shoot , I can churn out article after article at a quality , college prose Level . And I would NEVER consider charging such an exorbitant amount !! Ridiculous !!!

[stumblerum]

To be honest I am kind of staggered that there is so much backlash regarding price point on a MARKETING forum!?!

I mean where did you guys learn about marketing if you're still stuck on price being the key attribute of a good or service?

[Bev Clement]

Originally Posted by tomw

I know this may not be contributing much to the debate, but at all of the rates mentioned I just can't understand why any decent writer would write web copy for internet marketers at all.

In the UK, the average cost of a freelance junior copywriter is £200 a day. We pay many of our regular senior writers upwards of £400. Two or three, in particular, earn considerably more.

Whether we commission them to write ads, scripts, DM packs or web copy their rates are the same and most of our projects are measured in weeks not hours.

Being ranked number one writer on Rent-A-Coder, for example, means nothing if the averaged top rate is $50 per hour when compared to kids fresh out of college that I pay £50 per hour.

I just don't get it.

I don't mean to single you out Lisa, but since you appear to be the peacock with the brightest feathers, I took your situation and rate as a yardstick.

I just don't understand why you and other writers that purport considerable talent don't offer your freelance services to advertising and marketing agencies or write for marketing departments directly as opposed to scrabbling about hoping to win bids against the $1 dollar article brigade.

Perhaps this is something to think about when considering the transition to a senior writer on much higher rates.

Tom

Tom you have nailed it, because most people here stick to the IM market and the people who want articles often don't care about the quality.

The problem I have seen talking to many writers here, they don't know how to market themselves, they think if they head for the world where writers are valued they will lose business. They haven't and can't see the bigger picture.

I'm going to say this, I have kept quiet about it for a very long time, so here is a rant, but hopefully a wakeup call for writers.

You are not going to change the minds of those who want cheap article writers, these people are also marketers and don't want to pay you a decent amount from their profits. That's a general statement, but look at it and you will understand what I am saying.

If you write content or articles let me talk about this as well.

How many threads have you read about the offline/online world? Clue, the offliners always say about valuing yourself, when pricing to the business owner offline. Tell them how much of an expert you are, and charge them high prices. Then outsource and pay peanuts to a person who is either here on in a third world country.

Recently someone said they charge an offline company between $1,000 and $2,000 for a 7 part autoresponder series, but they outsource it for peanuts.

Get 10 articles written for $100 or less and charge the offline company $1,000 + for the website content.

Take a look at what is happening here, and if you can't see that writers and services providers are being used, then you deserve to continue the way you are. Learn how to market. Learn how to target the offline world. Learn how to sell to the many magazines who pay between $1 and $5 per word ... I have a list over 250 companies who are looking for writers today. Look to write manuscripts for authors who can't write themselves. Look to write books, reports and guides for companies. Do I need to go on?

[James Pateman]

Yep…I’m with the ‘charge what the market will bear camp’ (balanced with sustainable business practices, because it’s always much easier to keep the customer you have than find another one because you’ve overcharged them.)


All-the-best,
James Pateman

[discrat]

Originally Posted by stumblerum

To be honest I am kind of staggered that there is so much backlash regarding price point on a MARKETING forum!?!

I mean where did you guys learn about marketing if you're still stuck on price being the key attribute of a good or service?

I learned through Carl's Jr. Six Dollar Burger being sold for $3.99 !!
Pretty good Marketing Plan to Model myself after, wouldnt ya say ??

The fact of the Matter is we live in a World that is driven by Capitalism. And one of the main building blocks of Capitalism is Competition. So as long as Competition is thriving (which we should all hope so for our own good) then it would be foolhardy to believe that Price would not be a key attribute in a good or service !!

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by cherylwright

Are you sure about that? My specialty is rewriting sales pages. I've had clients come to me because they've had 'cheap' writers create their pages. And that's all good and fine except the pages don't convert.

Originally Posted by cherylwright

So then they come to me to fix the problem.

Instead of paying one writer once at a low fee, they end up paying two writers - one cheap, and the other - a professional - who actually does what they want.

In regard to SEO, most of those $5 article writers will write a lot of garbage around your keywords and phrases. If you secure a professional writer, we'll actually make sure your articles make sense and are informative.

So instead of having people come to your site via the keywords, then click out immediately when they encounter rubbish, they stay and look around. They might even buy something...
Cheryl

Comparing content writing to copy writing is an apple to oranges argument. But since you brought it up, I’ve paid “Professional” writers as much as $2K for sales copy that we eventually abandoned because it just didn’t convert. Regardless, I still wouldn’t hire a content writer for that task, which requires significantly more talent.


The price versus quality argument is a disingenuous one simply because the term quality is subjective. If your comments about SEO were uniformly true, then in fact, there would be no market for low-cost content writers at all. And yet they seem to flourish…go figure.

A simple analogy to the price versus quality argument can be found in the concept of medical “Tourism”, which is a rapidly growing market. The significantly lower costs of specialty procedures and treatments in countries like Argentina and India are attracting hundreds of thousands of people annually. Bottom line? The same level of quality of care can be found at affordable prices.

I encourage anyone who writes well to continue developing their skills and pursue the type of clientele who are looking for something more than just content. They are just not going to find many of them in the IM Content Writing market. Many of you in the “Professional Writers” club are not understanding that we’re not dissing you or your talents or your ability to command higher fees.

If you wonder why your arguments about this topic are falling on deaf ears, it’s because many of us have been working with low-cost content writers for years, with far more success than you can seemingly imagine. And ironically, over the long-term, i.e.; say 5 to 8 years in my case, the low-cost content continues to work year-after-year.

Visitors are not clicking away – they are staying, they are buying and gee whiz, all of my sites rank exceptionally well. So you will never convince me that paying significantly more for content is going to help my business activities – in fact, the opposite is true. Your higher costs just have a negative effect on the bottom line.

In other words, your talents are not a good fit with my business model. It’s like the problem of being “Over” educated – the very thing that makes you one of the best prices you right out of all of the broader markets and pigeonholes you into far narrower ones.

I’m running a business and making decisions that are fiscally appropriate for my goals and long-term plans. You’re not selling me by disparaging the low-cost writers, essentially telling me all their work is crap because they’re not a professional like you. You’re more or less telling me I don’t know what I’m doing because I choose to use them, when in fact I know firsthand that it does work.

You need to prove to me that that your talents and fees are going to have a commensurate impact on my bottom line and none of the writers in thread have accomplished that.

[cherylwright]

BigMike, I'm not here to prove anything to you. You are 'dissing' professional writers, but you're also attacking us for supposedly doing the same thing to cheaper writers.

I learned long ago that it wasn't worth banging my head against a brick wall trying to get writers to up their prices.

One of the problems is that many of these writers live in countries where earning $2 an article is a week's wages to them. I won't work for those sorts of prices; it's not worthwhile to me.

I undertake a range of copywriting services, such as sales pages, content writing, letters of introduction, editing, and more, but as I mentioned earlier, I mostly rewrite sales pages because I know I'm good at it.

And that's been proven by the repeat clients I have. One fellow I write for has had me rewrite sales pages for eight of his websites. Somehow I don't think he'd keep paying me these 'outrageous' prices if he wasn't happy with the results.

I don't do any marketing, the work comes to me - always.

Yes, I'm sure it does come down to financials, but you also have to look at the facts of conversion. If you're going to sell an addition number of products because of the conversion rate, don't you think it's worthwhile to pay more to begin with --- provided you get what you pay for?

I have loads of Warriors contact me to rewrite their sales pages, but they only want to pay $100 at most. Since I spend several days rewriting the pages to ensure they will convert as much as possible, $100 doesn't cut if for me.

As I said earlier, I charge $140 an hour on average - and what's more, I get it.

I would never presume to tell you how to run your business BigMike, but I also expect you to do the same for me. And that means respecting the fact I do command these fees, which BTW, are very low in comparison to the well known writers, many of whom are on this forum.




Cheryl

[stumblerum]

We're talking about the topic from a writer's perspective - not a sweat shop owner's perspective.

[lisag]

In other words, your talents are not a good fit with my business model. It’s like the problem of being “Over” educated – the very thing that makes you one of the best prices you right out of all of the broader markets and pigeonholes you into far narrower ones.
[

Mike,

I think it's a matter of how you view the world. The IM market is actually the "far narrower one" and the corporate and publishing world is the larger market, from my perspective. The larger market pays better because they have different content needs and some of us have a greater perceived value to that market; nothing more, nothing less.

You don't play in their world and they don't play in yours. That's why it's hard to have this conversation. We're talking different products to different markets.

The fact that Cheryl, I and others cater to different clients who pay higher rates is not disputable. The fact that the majority of IM people don't want to pay to rates is also not disputable.

So, logically, it would seem this thread can come to a natural end. Everyone has their own idea of value and they are entitled to it. Writers have the right to set their rates and either live with or enjoy the consequences.

What's left to discuss?

[tomw]

Originally Posted by stumblerum

If you let me wake up when I want, only do the work I want to do, work in my underwear (not pretty), tell certain clients that they aren't a good fit and let me work on my own projects when and where I see fit, then I will come and work for you!

Oh, and I'll need a laptop with an internet connection that works from the beach in Bali.

That's a fair point and, not surprisingly, the reason why I have staff!



Tom

[Doctor Article]

Just signing up with them now but I won't hold my breath. As I've mentioned in another post......what good is it if you get paid big buck per article but you only get to do one or two each month. When writing is your only source of income, I would rather write 500 articles at $5 a shot than two articles and $100 a shot. Anyway, just signing up so who knows?

Thanks for posting the link anyway

[Bev Clement]

And this is the difference.

500 articles for $5 each which comes to $2,500 and assuming each article is 400 words you have to write 200,000 words.

I would rather write 30,000 words and get paid $3,000. See the difference?

[Paul Hancox]

Hey Mike

Just like life, there are a variety of business models, a variety of reasons for buying, a variety of markets, and purposes for the writing.

For the purpose of publishing a "forex trading" article on EzineArticles, it may suffice to do a quick Google search, pick a few tips, and fashion it into a 300 word article. Bam. Sure, I wouldn't pay $50 (or even $10) for that

But that may not be sufficient content for readers of "Investor Weekly" or something like that. Or even for a site that is seriously attempting to dominate that niche. There's no way they're going to publish that Google rehash.

The beauty of the free market is there's a demand for all kinds of content, at all kinds of prices.

There's a HUGE DEMAND for cheap "research = quick Google search" articles, because of the need for backlinks and traffic.

But I'd also suggest there's a pretty BIG DEMAND for writing that is more thought out, researched and more likely to "pull" subscribers and convey authority and expertise.

I'd suggest there IS a big correlation between quality and price. A lower paid writer has less time to put in the thought, creativity, originality and research.

That's not to say all $5 writers are lousy, and $50 writers are all great. Of course not. A lousy writer is lousy at any price.

But a good writer is better when they have more time to CRAFT, rather than CHURN.

Anyway, what I teach writers to do is to sell different levels of writing service, because everyone's idea of "quality" is different.

i.e. BASIC, SILVER and GOLD.

Basic, for clients who essentially want articles for backlinking and to throw out onto the Internet.

Silver for clients who want deeper research and higher quality.

Gold for linkbait, authority building, reader salivating quality that hooks the reader and makes them want to say, "Where do I sign up?"

Let the customer decide what level of quality they really want

That way, the writer can sell $5 articles, $10 articles AND $20 articles. The customer gets to choose their own definition of quality, based on the level they pick.

[tomw]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

The problem I have seen talking to many writers here, they don't know how to market themselves, they think if they head for the world where writers are valued they will lose business. They haven't and can't see the bigger picture.

Great post, Bev and, you know, it got me thinking.

Actually, the issue is a far deeper one than that.

Having reread this thread, the thing that struck me, or rather astonished me, was to read a discussion conducted by so many writers and to clearly see that none appear to grasp what their "product" is at the very core. As a result, it is no surprise that the whole notion of respective rates has lead to, shall we say, a little heat.

Indeed, it is the focus on the rate, or rather "following the money" from the outset, and not learning, honing and mastering the craft, that is the reason why many "writers" find themselves in their respective situations, writing at the level they do and commanding the rates that they do.

Perhaps, much more fundamentally, it is that they do not completely appreciate what it is that they do. They do not fully grasp the true nature of the written word and the implication that this has for the writer. The power that they can wield. The true potential of their influence.

All writing is about one thing and one thing alone;

CREATIVITY.

If we are to attribute a true "value," some form of fundamental measurement to any writing, then it is to do with its level of creativity.

Simply arranging words on a page in a coherent fashion is of course an act of creativity. And anyone can do it. What separates the dilettante from the artist is the respective level of creativity manifested through a respective understanding and application of the craft.

The great writers understand and have complete command of the fact that through a combination of creativity and craft they offer hope and deliver truth.

The great authors do this via one of the most powerful mediums that we are aware of - storytelling - and, as everyone knows, the only real truths are found in literature.

In some ways, the great copywriters can be considered to do this in more impressive fashion. They establish a "truth," offer hope that the present, past, future or continuous physical, psychological or emotional need on the part of the prospect will be fulfilled. What is arguably most impressive of all is the fact that a great copywriter's writing is so powerful that it moves a prospect to act. To bend to the copywriter's will in response to the deliberate application of his creativity and his craft. To fill in the form. Buy the product. Make a donation. Put this guy in the White House.

They don't make us merely think it, they make us *do it.* Often instantly. Often in a single sentence.

Think about that for a minute...

Consider just how powerful that really is.

In, say, a ten or twelve word headline, a great copywriter is able to communicate a fundamental truth that the prospect relates to on a deeper level, offer hope that whatever they lack will become abundant, package this up in a mini scenario or "story" that is so convincing it touches the prospect's psyche so powerfully that it moves them to act upon it almost instantly. Moments after the prospect has read it. And tomorrow, the next day, next week or within the next five minutes they'll do it to us again and again and again!

Incredibly, a great copywriter does this on demand. To order. Day in. Day out. For a myriad of products, services or causes.

Make no mistake a great copywriter is an artist just as a great author is. The only difference is the medium. And, as an artist, they are compelled to write. They do not do it for the rate. They do it for love. They do it because they truly believe that they have a gift, insight or deeper understanding that can make a difference to people's lives. To the world.

In twenty odd years of working in this business I have been fortunate enough to work with some of the greatest copywriters out there. I didn't meet a single one of them that didn't have countless other writing projects, plays, novels or lectures on the go as well as the advertising work. These artists write because they feel compelled to make a positive difference in our lives. To shape a brighter future. To write a happy ending for all of us.

I love, respect and am in awe of them for it. Every one.

I believe that every aspiring writer needs to consider very seriously what it is that they do. Delve into the real meaning and power of their written words. Devour everything that they can concerning the nature of creativity, the tools of the craft and the elements of influence.

Communication is a very serious business and using its most potent indirect form in order to influence others must be respected, treasured and, above all, wielded by those with a deep understanding of and control over its power.

For every step an aspiring writer takes on such an artist's journey, the rates will rise accordingly but, more importantly, they'll make a positive and hopefully profound difference to the rest of us.

[Doctor Article]

Stumblebum....if you're ever in Thailand send me a PM because it seems we may have a lot in common.....

[SMP]

Originally Posted by Shana_Adam

Jesus that's steep!

It is a little steep.................and stop calling me Jesus

SP

[Collette]

Originally Posted by tomw

...
Indeed, it is the focus on the rate, or rather "following the money" from the outset, and not learning, honing and mastering the craft, that is the reason why many "writers" find themselves in their respective situations, writing at the level they do and commanding the rates that they do.

Perhaps, much more fundamentally, it is that they do not completely appreciate what it is that they do. ....

Or what they can do.

To realize your potential you must first believe that you have potential. And then do everything in your power to reach that potential.

If you insist on turning your skills, knowledge and talent into a commodity, don't be surprised when buyers do the same. "Price" is a commodity. And there will ALWAYS be someone who can beat you on "price".

Of course, if you can't be bothered to improve your skills, knowledge and talent then, by all means, commoditize away!

[tomw]

Originally Posted by Collette

Or what they can do.

Hi Colette,

You made some great points. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

The heated nature of a discussion concerning rates basically stems from the fact that some are making a packet and others aren't. Those that get to a higher level tend to look down their noses at those that don't. Those that don't harbour a little resentment often due to not knowing how to achieve similar levels of success.

My post was about divining a pathway to success as a writer by understanding the nature and power of communication. As a first step to achieving this a writer needs to "appreciate what it is that they do."

You sentence is great because it can be used to sum up so much of what I wrote.

Another example of which is;

The copywriter's superpowers can be used for good or for evil.



Tom

[Collette]

Sho'nuff, Tom. I couldn't agree more with you.

I notice too, that much of the heat also seems to swirl around the question of whether it's worth paying a writer $X. Or whether writers who charge $X are really worth it.

False dilemmas, both.

Because the question writers AND buyers should be asking themselves is: "What is this worth TO ME?" And providing value accordingly.

Note that I tie this to "value". For newbie writers, or someone who is trying to gather portfolio samples, or someone trying to break into a new niche of clients, it usually makes sense to price yourself on the low end of the scale. Because the value you can offer is (at present) less than the value you will (hopefully) offer in the future.

...the fact (is) that some are making a packet and others aren't. Those that get to a higher level tend to look down their noses at those that don't. Those that don't harbour a little resentment often due to not knowing how to achieve similar levels of success.

I really don't have a problem with people charging low prices for their services, or people who will only pay little or nothing - as long as they are clear on why they're doing it. Problem is, we seem to hear a lot (at least here on the WF) from buyers who complain that they paid next-to-nothing for some writing service that delivered little or no value.

And we also hear from writers who get all huffy at the mere suggestion that they may be tying themselves to the perception of low-value and inexperience when they charge next-to-nothing for their skills and expertise.

If you needed heart surgery, would you be price shopping? If you were looking for a reliable baby-sitter, would you be trusting your kids' lives to someone based solely on "price"? If you were looking to buy a suit for an important job interview - one that could change your life - would you choose the one with the badly-fitting jacket and cheap, shiny fabric just to save a few bucks?

And why is it that the jewelry worn by movie stars on the red carpet NEVER comes from WalMart?

I wrote my first long copy sales letter for a pittance of $500. Calculating the hours I spent on research, consultation, writing, etc, I probably earned about $5/hr.

The result was certainly better than their previous copy, and converted vastly better. However, even though I was a good basic writer to begin with, I knew next to nothing about writing sales copy.

The fact is, I was learning on my client's dime. But my client knew this. They also knew that, while they could be sure of getting better-written, clearer, and more coherent writing than they had, the possibility that the sales letter would be "killer" was a crapshoot, at best.

Luckily, it turned out to be a win-win for both of us.

Fact is, when you work with service providers who are charging well below a 40/hr per week = living wage, you ARE buying into a crapshoot.

And if, as a "professional" you can't, or won't, charge what translates into my work = living wage, then understand that you are voluntarily placing yourself into a life of sweatshop labor.

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by cherylwright

Yes, I'm sure it does come down to financials, but you also have to look at the facts of conversion. If you're going to sell an addition number of products because of the conversion rate, don't you think it's worthwhile to pay more to begin with --- provided you get what you pay for?

Cheryl, you see this is the area where I have the biggest problem with these kinds of discussions.

First of all, you're making an assumption that I do not look at conversions, when in fact I monitor this very closely. I have tested this thoroughly with content ranging in cost from $3 to $100 per article. I know what my numbers are and where the sweet spot is.

This is where, if you were trying to sell me on your higher priced services, you need to prove to me that your efforts are going to increase the conversion rates at a ratio comparable to what the lower cost writers are doing.

I have loads of Warriors contact me to rewrite their sales pages, but they only want to pay $100 at most. Since I spend several days rewriting the pages to ensure they will convert as much as possible, $100 doesn't cut if for me.

As I said earlier, I charge $140 an hour on average - and what's more, I get it.

I would never presume to tell you how to run your business BigMike, but I also expect you to do the same for me. And that means respecting the fact I do command these fees, which BTW, are very low in comparison to the well known writers, many of whom are on this forum.

Cheryl

Again, I'm not suggesting that any writer should run their business differently. I encourage my own writers to market themselves and work up to and out of the content writing market.

I do respect you and others for commanding those fees - but just respecting you does not make you a good fit for my business needs.