Here's what to charge for articles and writing services

[Mike Anthony]

Revealing thread.

Basically a few people claiming that a Big Mac is the same as a sirloin steak at a high end restaurant and doing so without sitting down in the high end restaurant.

If Lisa is rated as the number one writer at RAC and there is no difference then why aren't many of those 2 cent a word writers pushing her down the list? Judging by the market their customers should be over the moon over their $10 articles and they should have far more votes. Must be a reason.

[ewenmack]

This is a eye-opener as to what fees you can get with the right reputation in the right market.

Believe it or not it is often a emotional reason by client paying top dollar, not ROI.

Here,s a story to illustrate.

A well known [outside IM world] b+ copywriter positioned himself to be very picky who he takes on.

Results in people litterally begging to have him at least look at their projects.

It happened more than once where his clients never sent out his copy.

It was like some weired conquest where the buyer bought bragging rights to have this copywriter work for him.

This weiredness happened over a decade ago.

Fees were like 15 grand plus if I recall correctly.

So don't get your thinking as to what someone is prepared to pay limit your income.

Ewen

[stumblerum]

I occasionally outsource to writers when I am snowed under or feeling lazy. I buy a very specific type of writing - link bait. Not just any old good article, but things that have a GENUINE chance of going popular on the social networks. The cheapest writer I have found charges about $30 for the article and I still have to edit the hell out of his stuff. If someone thinks they can write link bait for me at 1 cent a word and has examples of their 1 or 2 cent content hitting the front page of digg, I certainly haven't been able to find them.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

...I have to disagree here Collette, because we’re not buying something for our personal use and enjoyment. The “Value” here stems from ROI and only ROI.

Presumably the buyer has been testing and tracking conversions, factoring in the cost of writing among other things, to determine the maximum return from their investment in achieving a given set of goals.

….

Mike, I wouldn't lump you into the general category of "price shoppers". And here's why:

There's an enormous difference between someone who has taken the time to educate themselves on the options available, and someone whose ONLY concern is price.

Price shoppers (generalization alert) are usually not thinking about ROI. And most of them wouldn't be able to evaluate ROI if it jumped up and bit 'em on the butt.

Yes, people SHOULD be testing and tracking, working with a carefully thought-out budget and marketing plan, and planning their outlay with regard to achieving a given set of goals.

Unfortunately, whenever I have been approached by those whose first question is, "How much do you charge for X?", I have found that those people never have any of the excellent parameters you listed in place.

So I completely agree with you that value stems from ROI, but I suggest that ROI cuts both ways.

When I work with a client, I invest a lot of my time and energy into producing the best damn work I can for them. I've also invested my own time and money into increasing my learning and skill development - so that I can offer high-quality copywriting and marketing services that deliver ROI for my clients.

At the same time, I have bills to pay and obligations to meet, and a lifestyle I wish to support.

Trust me, I'm not whining about the time and money I've spent on my own career. My choice, and mine alone.

But - I think - given my investment and my desire for a "return" on my investment, that I owe it to myself to work with clients who value what I can bring to the table.

In other words, I can choose to direct my energies to maximizing my ROI. Or not.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, yes – it’s called “Medical Tourism” and hundreds of thousands of people do it every year..

Not so. Medical Tourism exists on the premise that people believe they can get the same or better quality of care abroad for a lower price. It's about ROI.

Quote:If you were looking for a reliable baby-sitter, would you be trusting your kids' lives to someone based solely on "price"?

Nope, but price is still a factor. And there is no way to ensure that your children will be any safer with a high-priced care giver then a lower-priced one.

Again, the key word here is "reliable". If a parent has a choice between a babysitter known to be reliable, and one who is not, they will gladly pay the extra for the peace of mind. It's not about lower-priced vs higher-priced. It's about ROI.

Quote:If you were looking to buy a suit for an important job interview - one that could change your life - would you choose the one with the badly-fitting jacket and cheap, shiny fabric just to save a few bucks?

I was interviewed for my last position in the US (a VP slot) In jeans and a sweatshirt (long story I won’t go into)…I closed the deal right then and there.

The average interviewee isn't going to get away with dressing like that in most mainstream industries. And you're smart enough to know that.

The bottom line for myself and others who have been in this business for a long time comes down to what the market dictates. Those of us earning 6 and 7 figures annually aren’t doing it by accident – we know what works and what doesn’t for us.

Then surely you can appreciate that this is simply a case of different people deciding what works for them, and what doesn't.

In your case, you've decided what your needs are. You take the necessary actions to meet your needs. If an action doesn't meet your need (i.e. does not produce the desired ROI) you dump it and move on. Nothing wrong with that.

Some writers work the same way you do.

[Neil Kieren]

There's a lot of discussions about this sort of topic but this seem to be the one that really interests me.

[lisag]

Originally Posted by Anthony J Namata

Those prices are outrageous, you'd have to be a corporation to afford that.

Yes, and that's who I write for mostly.

[lisag]

Originally Posted by tomw

In the UK, the average cost of a freelance junior copywriter is £200 a day. We pay many of our regular senior writers upwards of £400. Two or three, in particular, earn considerably more.

That's all fine and good if you want a job; but freelancers don't want a salary. IMO, a job with a recurring salary gives you no hope. Here's what I mean:

Using your example, only in U.S. dollars: If I am paid $400 per day, 5 days a week, I earn $104,000 per year. So, after taxes, I am left with somewhere around $67,000. That's $5,500 per month or $1200 per week, roughly.

So that $5,500 defines my world. If I do not want to go into debt, I have to model my life around what I can afford to buy with a fixed amount of money.

If I want to buy a $15,000 boat, I either need to go into debt, or save a percentage of my income until I reach $15,000 and hope that inflation doesn't keep driving the price of the boat out of reach during the period of savings.

As a freelancer, working in the market I work in, there is a chance I will land a $15,000 project and maybe be able to buy that boat, or all but the engine, out of profits.

That gives me hope. I wake up each day knowing that I am going to get new business and that I am in control of what I earn.

If I need an extra $15,000 all I have to do is open the flood gates and say "Yes" to every project that comes across my desk, even if I normally wouldn't take any particular one, and I may be able to nail that $15,000 in a short time. Work myself to the bone -- yes, but that would be my choice and I would reap the reward.

With a job? I have no hope.

[Frank Donovan]

Hi Lisa

Originally Posted by lisag

That's all fine and good if you want a job; but freelancers don't want a salary. IMO, a job with a recurring salary gives you no hope.

You may be working for yourself, but as a freelancer - assuming you're not leveraging your efforts - you do, effectively, have a job.

Your rates may vary and you may get a particularly high-paying assignment, but there's still only one of you and only 24 hours in every day. There's a limit to your earnings.

If you want to maintain your standard of living, you'll have to keep working (give or take) at the rate you currently are.

And your only "asset" is you (i.e. your reputation).

A business owner has something tangible to sell. Something that could possibly be cashed in for a lump sum within a few short years.

If you're not building assets, then you're simply working for a living - a job by any other name.


Frank

[lisag]

If you're not building assets, then you're simply working for a living - a job by any other name.

You're spot on there which is why I am burning the midnight oil putting up little money-making web sites.

I realize I have a "job", but I have complete control over every aspect of my work environment from my work location, attire, hours, level of effort, choice of tasks.

As far as being a business owners and building an asset. Well, been there and done that. I even have the T-Shirt (literally).

My husband and I built a mail-order business, took it to #132 on the INC 500 and sold it to a Fortune 1000 in NY after 6 years.

http://www.bizwiz.com/bizwizwire/pre...y7sjj44ye7.htm


It was fun but waaay too much work. I was never happier than the day the contract was signed and the wire transfer was completed.

[Frank Donovan]

Hi Lisa

Originally Posted by lisag

You're spot on there which is why I am burning the midnight oil putting up little money-making web sites.

Yes, I thought as much. Smart move.

I realize I have a "job", but I have complete control over every aspect of my work environment from my work location, attire, hours, level of effort, choice of tasks.

That just means you have an accommodating "boss"

My husband and I built a mail-order business, took it to #132 on the INC 500 and sold it to a Fortune 1000 in NY after 6 years.

Way to go.


NB I wasn't in any way disparaging the concept of freelance work. I'd guess most freelancers love what they do and lead happy and fulfilling lives.

But it's still a job.


Best,


Frank

[lisag]

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Hi Lisa

NB I wasn't in any way disparaging the concept of freelance work. I'd guess most freelancers love what they do and lead happy and fulfilling lives.
Frank

No worries. I didn't take it that way. And I wasn't disparaging the concept of owning a business and building assets. But I bet you knew that ;-)

[tomw]

Originally Posted by lisag

That's all fine and good if you want a job; but freelancers don't want a salary. IMO, a job with a recurring salary gives you no hope.

With a job? I have no hope.

Like I said, and as you have quoted, the writers I was talking about where freelance - they work for *themselves* and we hire them on a per project basis. I'm not exactly sure how many full-time writers are employed across my companies but, yes, in their case you are right they do have a job - but that's their choice. Nothing wrong with that!

As for the freelance guys, they come and go as they please as long are the projects are completed and are up to the agency standard everyone's happy.

Furthermore, as I said in my subsequent post, as far as the really good writers are concerned,

"I didn't meet a single one of them that didn't have countless other writing projects, plays, novels or lectures on the go."

In many cases, they make more income from their non advertising endeavours but, of course, the advertising income is regular, guaranteed and immediate.

As Frank wrote, simply being a freelance writer can limit your revenue potential for all of the reasons he discussed. It's good to hear that you have recently discovered this.

Good luck with your sites.

Tom

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

You may be working for yourself, but as a freelancer - assuming you're not leveraging your efforts - you do, effectively, have a job.

One of the things I've picked up on while working as a freelance content writer is that I get to see what a LOT of other marketers are doing with articles, and in some ways, it's like having mentors who pay you to learn their business; I've learned more about article marketing in the past three months of writing articles than I did in years of reading reports, and a lot faster than I could possibly have figured it out on my own through trial and error.

I'm actually starting to lean in the direction that the best way to get a solid, reliable education in IM is to learn one thing passably well, and then sell your services in that one thing to see how other people are integrating it with their other efforts. Once you've got a solid handle on it, you can move on to the next thing, and over the course of a year or two you'll learn all you need... getting paid for it the whole time.

Which is really a pretty strong argument for not going the corporate route, when you think about it.

[Bev Clement]

One lesson I teach is how to get a client in 10 mins and that client will be the best paying client every.

Without giving away everything, we got this client, and we worked for them for maybe 20 hours at the most. The payback was over 3 months, because of how the work was done. Less than 10,000 words were written and the paycheck over 3 months was just over $9,000. Why, because we don't want a job as a freelancer, we use our knowledge to get writing contracts which pay far higher rates than anything a normal client would pay, be it in IM or outside of IM.

[Frank Donovan]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

One of the things I've picked up on while working as a freelance content writer is that I get to see what a LOT of other marketers are doing with articles, and in some ways, it's like having mentors who pay you to learn their business; I've learned more about article marketing in the past three months of writing articles than I did in years of reading reports, and a lot faster than I could possibly have figured it out on my own through trial and error.

Great point. And sooner or later, as you fully realize the ways in which other marketers are exploiting your content, you'll think to yourself "Hey, I can do that!"

Then you'll begin earning something like your true worth.


Frank

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Then you'll begin earning something like your true worth.

One of the things I occasionally point out to people who say "my time is worth $X an hour" is that an hour of human life is, in fact, priceless. You only have so many of them, it's never enough, and there's no way to get more. You literally cannot be paid enough - let alone "too much" - for your time.

[Frank Donovan]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You literally cannot be paid enough - let alone "too much" - for your time.

I'm currently dealing with a builder who seems to think the same thing


Frank

[Paul Hancox]

The problem with CONTENT is it's not easy to determine a true return on investment (ROI).

For example, you could purchase a $10 article for your blog. It doesn't make you any direct sales. Does that mean its ROI is zero?

Not necessarily.

As I discussed in Do You Value Your Content? Here’s Why You Should..., there are many factors contributing to the value that aren't immediately obvious.

Brian Clark's Copyblogger was founded early in 2006 and now has 70,000+ subscribers, half a million backlinks (I mean REAL backlinks, and not profile links and comments) and over 1,000 articles.

If the founder were to sell up now, I estimate he'd easily get $100K for it, which is OVER $100 an article. (Personally, I suspect he could sell it for $1 MILLION or more, or $1,000+ per article!)

That doesn't even include all the revenue he's generated from his blog since 2006, plus the LEVERAGE factor of owning such an authority blog (he speaks at various conventiions and sells other products which he can promote on his blog), plus the boost to his own personal AUTHORITY in the field of copywriting.

What is the ROI of all that?

One thing I'm certain... I doubt very many of the posts on that blog were written by "cheap" article "writers" with English as a second language.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean he pays $50 an article, either. In fact, probably many of those articles were written for FREE by guest bloggers, who determined their ROI for doing so on the basis of the publicity they'd receive.

My point is... if you're measuring the value of content by the immediate ROI (i.e. how many immediate subscribers or sales it generates, or Adsense revenue), that could well be seriously underestimating its value over the long term.

And that also doesn't include the different ways in which your high quality content could be repackaged: PLR, reports, courses, even a physical book!

In short, measuring the short term ROI does not take into account...

... the LONG TERM value of your content as a whole (i.e. on a blog that can be sold in its entirety)
... the LEVERAGE you can get from your content (i.e. writing a book, perceived as an authority, guest speaker etc)
... the REPACKACKING value (i.e. can the content be refashioned into reports, courses and even physical books).
... the BACKLINKS value. Everyone wants backlinks, but if you have a blog with a decent number of subscribers and good content, people will naturally backlink to your content (aka Copyblogger's 500,000 backlinks) - no "packets" necessary

[stumblerum]

@Paul Hancox - they're soem great points.

For online writing, I long ago figured out that I had to add value to the content if I wanted to charge a lot for it. That's why I started cultivating an online social network. These days I have most of the top social media users available to me on IM and have some pretty strong accounts myself. That means that any content I produce for my clients is practically guaranteed to get a heap of traffic and links. The content itself needs to be pretty good and well suited to this type of marketing, but I think I have the formular just about right.

It was a lot of work to establish my network, but it has been well worth it. When I launch a site, it gets thousands of visitors from day one.

The thing is, this value add practically guarantees a steady stream of customers who are willing to pay a lot more than most online content buyers too. The ROI is there for them.

Another way to get more for writing is simply to sell to a different market. I get 3x more if I sell the exact same service to an offline company than to an internet marketer. I know guys who sell the service at 10x what I am doing (with no guarantees), but they are the big names. The perceived value of their work is higher than mine and good luck to them.

[imanij]

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[pauljeaston]

Originally Posted by miwriting

I think business owners, webmasters, marketers etc. always fall into one of two camps - either they want as much content as possible for the lowest price or they are comfortable paying more, but expect a high quality product. It works out well and supports what the market will bear.

As a writer, I definitely fall into the higher priced category because I decided early on that's how I would value my writing. And while there is definitely nothing wrong with writing articles for less, I'm always a little sad to see that writers don't value their own writing services at a higher rate. It's just my opinion, but I don't think any writer should be charging $5 for an article. Decent writing takes time and that doesn't even earn a writer minimum wage.

So sad and true. Writing should be a great career.

[Bev Clement]

What I find disturbing isn't writers who don't value themselves, does McD's value themselves over an expensive ... you can't tell. But, the writers who think they can charge more because they can charge more.

I have asked this question over the past year to many writers, and many are in this thread.

I asked how would they write an article on a certain niche for a low rate, a medium rate and a high rate. The writer has to determine which rates they would charge in each group.

And the answer was the same way, the same article for all the different price ranges. That is wrong.

I don't go to a 5 star restaurant and expect a McD just because I'm willing to pay more.

A high price article should have more research completed, the article written with more in-depth information and hidden gems you have discovered whilst reseaching.

A cheap price article will be researched, but to a far lower level, and the article written so people can engage with it, but not anywhere as in-depth as a high priced one. We tell people we can write low priced articles but they will be fairly basic articles compared to our high price articles.

I would be annoyed if I paid a top price and found that someone who wanted cheap got the same service, because the writer can't tell the difference because low rates and high rates and what it means.

It doesn't mean the most I can get from a client.

[Justin Jordan]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

I asked how would they write an article on a certain niche for a low rate, a medium rate and a high rate. The writer has to determine which rates they would charge in each group.

And the answer was the same way, the same article for all the different price ranges. That is wrong.

I have to wonder about the question? Is it just what they would consider a low rate?

Because my lowest rate is still much higher than the average rate in the Warrior forum, and many times the average rate at a place like Rentacoder. And for that you get talent and experience.

On a relative basis, though, I do have a sliding scale. I have a minimum per word, and then a fee related to the amount of research time and revisions I'm going to need to do. My fees for doing standard IM articles is less than half my usual rate, because the investment in time is so much smaller.

[Bev Clement]

Most of the people who were asked the question were people charging around 2 cents per word. They wanted to know how to charge higher rates, and I posed the question to see what they would do for 5 cents a word or 10 cents a word. But the rates were not relevants in the sense any 3 rates would have done. It was the principle to show an article written couldn't be sold for 3 different rates without different levels of writing.