Affiliates...Why do you hate opt in page?

[Desmond Ong]

Hey folks,

I'd have over 48 niche marketing sites on ClickBank, PaydotCom and other marketplaces. Early this year, I applied squeeze pages as my homepage on almost 30 of the niche sites -- because my conversion increased when I tested it.

Basically, the function of the squeeze page is simple. To get prospects to subscribe, and then "warm" them up instead of cold-selling my products to them.

Unfortunately, last month, I got some complaints from about 20 affiliates saying that they are losing commissions because I put on a squeeze page. Now, I've always been protecting my affiliates and I didn't take away their commissions through some grey hat or black hat methods or whatever.

But the affiliates think that I'm trying to steal their commissions by using the squeeze page (i guess they are afraid that I might overwrite the prospects' browsers' cookies with my affiliate cookies).

Well, this is not a big problem for me. But I used to get about 1 or 2 new affiliates per day for each of my niche site but certain niche sites are not getting many affiliates any more because they are worried that I might steal their commission.

I recently did an interview with six ClickBank affiliates (whom are all making at least $5,000+) and they told me that they will not bother promoting a niche marketing site with squeeze page as the homepage.

What do you think guys?

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

I recently did an interview with six ClickBank affiliates (whom are all making at least $5,000+) and they told me that they will not bother promoting a niche marketing site with squeeze page as the homepage.

I'm not at all surprised that this is what you're hearing.

I agree with them, Desmond.

I think that it'll be difficult for you to retain serious, professional, successful affiliates with an opt-in on the vendor's sales page.

I admit (nothing personal! ) that I would immediately stop promoting your products if you did this.

The reasons have been discussed here in many threads over the last few weeks, and it's probably not really worth re-hashing all the arguments. But I'll tell you briefly why I won't do this, anyway. In short, there isn't a way for affiliates to know that they'll get credited with sales made to people brought to your sales page by their hard work, money, time, effort, experience and all the rest of it.

In theory, they could sign up as a "prospect" (i.e. opt in themselves) and look through everything you're sending out for 60 days (the life of an affiliate cookie) to check that there are no links to your cousins' friends' cousins' affiliate-link for the product, but (a) even if they do that, the vendor might just be doing that with a percentage of the leads anyway, and (b) who wants to have to do that, anyway?

The point is that from the affiliates' perspective, there are many other products that don't give us this problem, and we have the right to promote whatever we want; so why are we going to choose something that gives us an additional problem to worry about? It just makes no sense at all.

We want the leads ourselves. We've done the marketing work to produce them. We want them to opt in (the ones who are going to opt in anywhere, I mean - obviously some won't) to our pre-sell site, and follow them up ourselves with our own affiliate-links, rather than trusting that someone already known to have a potentially conflicting financial incentive involved isn't going to be unkind/unethical to us. With all of Clickbank's affiliate-tracking unreliability and crappy customer service, it's hard enough for us to get paid as it is - we don't need extra worries!

[dave147]

Yes many affiliates believe that it is too easy to lose commissions when there is a squeeze page involved, and they're probably right. I believe It could easily be a waste of time and effort promoting a product with a squeeze page in a lot of cases.

[Sean A McAlister]

To add to what has already been said...

A lot of savvy affiliates know that this is also a list grab and do not
want to build your list for you with their subscribers....


All the best
Sean

[Desmond Ong]

Thanks guys.

Really appreciated it.

But ever since I put on squeeze pages, I've gotten "good-quality" affiliates who kept on bringing me one or two sales per day consistently.

I've actually put on a full explanation on how the cookie works and how we track..yada yada yada...but seems like a lot of affiliates don't even look at my affiliates center after seeing my squeeze page -- which sucks!

I've also looked at some big ClickBank products like The CB Code which uses squeeze page as homepage but there are still tons of affiliate marketers promoting it. (weird huh?)

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

seems like a lot of affiliates don't even look at my affiliates center after seeing my squeeze page -- which sucks!

To be honest, I wouldn't either. Once I see an opt-in, I'm no longer interested. And I suspect that trend's increasing as affiliates increasingly become aware of what (sometimes) goes on.

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

I've also looked at some big ClickBank products like The CB Code which uses squeeze page as homepage but there are still tons of affiliate marketers promoting it. (weird huh?)

When you say "big ClickBank products" I suspect you mean "high gravity"? I think there are many affiliates labouring undering the misapprehension that these are the best products for affiliate promotion. They're not necessarily the affiliates who are most desirable to you, as a vendor, I suspect.

[dave147]

There will always be an exception to the rule (belief). If they think that the product will be a hot money making product for them, then most would be willing to overlook the squeeze page and promote the hot product

[Chris_Willow]

Ok, here's what you can do.

Ask your programmer guy to write a script that gets the affiliate ID from url and puts it in a hidden "ref" field in your autoresponder form. When they've opted in, you have their name, email and the affiliate id. When you send out promotions, send them affiliate link with yoursite.com?a=[ref]. So if an affiliate referred someone, you would automatically send that person affiliate's link and the affiliate would get the commission.

That's what happens with the big launches when everyone is promoting an optin page. What do you think is easier- getting people to sign up for a free video that provides value and get the commission later, when they have been warmed up, or sell cold?

optin forms rule
Peace out

Chris

[Desmond Ong]

Originally Posted by Chris_Willow

Ask your programmer guy to write a script that gets the affiliate ID from url and puts it in a hidden "ref" field in your autoresponder form. When they've opted in, you have their name, email and the affiliate id. When you send out promotions, send them affiliate link with yoursite.com?a=[ref]. So if an affiliate referred someone, you would automatically send that person affiliate's link and the affiliate would get the commission.

Hey Chris,

I've done that. Most of my super affiliates and elite affiliates understand the opt in thing.

But the main concern is with newbie affiliates. Most of them think that I'm stealing their prospects, commissions and to make things worse, they tend to have the mindset that conversion will be much lower if prospects go through the "warming up" process.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

they tend to have the mindset that conversion will be much lower if prospects go through the "warming up" process.

That's just silly. But those aren't affiliates you should be too concerned about anyway, perhaps?

The ones you want to attract and retain, I'd think, but can't, are the ones who very sensibly want to build their own list by having their own opt-in and doing their own follow-ups, in the knowledge that this dramatically increases the conversion-rates?

Can't you have two different sales pages available, one with an opt-in and one without?

[Desmond Ong]

Hi Alexa,

I actually have two pages that the affiliates can direct their prospects to right now. So, it's really no worries.

But the thing that worries me is the conversion for the one without squeeze page. The conversion is about 2% and the one with squeeze page converts at about 5% to 6% sometimes even more.

My goal as a niche marketer has always been to make my affiliates money so they love me. ;-) So it really bothers me that they are giving up and decided to change their whole campaigns just because I told them that squeeze pages tend to convert better.

[Prashant_W]

well, if it's your elite affiliates who will be bringing in the bulk of your sales, why bother with what the newbies think? you're not obliged to make them realise that what you're doing is strategic and hence not going to hamper them.

when they do eventually come to their senses, they'll come running back to you.

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

Hey Chris,

I've done that. Most of my super affiliates and elite affiliates understand the opt in thing.

But the main concern is with newbie affiliates. Most of them think that I'm stealing their prospects, commissions and to make things worse, they tend to have the mindset that conversion will be much lower if prospects go through the "warming up" process.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

The conversion is about 2% and the one with squeeze page converts at about 5% to 6% sometimes even more.

Yup, no great surprise there, I think.

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

My goal as a niche marketer has always been to make my affiliates money so they love me. ;-) So it really bothers me that they are giving up and decided to change their whole campaigns just because I told them that squeeze pages tend to convert better.

I understand. I suspect that to some extent you're paying the price, as a vendor, for the dishonest/unethical tricks of other vendors.

Anyway, obviously a very good move to be able to offer affiliates who want it an opt-in-free sales page.

[Desmond Ong]

Originally Posted by prashie91

well, if it's your elite affiliates who will be bringing in the bulk of your sales, why bother with what the newbies think? you're not obliged to make them realise that what you're doing is strategic and hence not going to hamper them.

when they do eventually come to their senses, they'll come running back to you.

Hey mate,

It's not how I run my niche marketing business if I am to put all eggs in one basket.

If those top affiliates one day realized that they got sick of promoting my product and promote someone else's, my niche marketing site would literally "die".

Plus, I like to see those smile on those newbie affiliates when they email me and tell me that they made their first sale. It's a wonderful feeling.

[scrofford]

Just to put in my two cents..I also will not promote a product with the merchant having an opt - in page. If I am promoting the product and am trying to build a list, then I do not want the merchant to take the people from my list. My list is my money...So when I promote a product, I look for only those that do not have opt -ins on the squeeze page.

[Prashant_W]

well as long as your products make your top affiliates good money (and of course makes more money than your competitors) i don't see why they would get bored. but ya, there is still a risk that this might happen.

ok. but the bottom line is you can't really please everyone can you? i guess you just have to make them realise that 1) you're not stealing their commissions and wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, and 2) having the opt-in page actually boosts conversion rates, hence increasing the frequency at which they get credited with sales.

cheers

prashant

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

Hey mate,

It's not how I run my niche marketing business if I am to put all eggs in one basket.

If those top affiliates one day realized that they got sick of promoting my product and promote someone else's, my niche marketing site would literally "die".

Plus, I like to see those smile on those newbie affiliates when they email me and tell me that they made their first sale. It's a wonderful feeling.

[dean_holland]

Hey Desmond

Im going to go against many here ....

As an affiliate, if I see Im getting a good return on my investment ( leads sent ) then I have NO problem with sending to a squeeze page.

The most ideal setup is lifetime cookied... For example I promote an opt in page as an affiliate for a friend and fellow marketer.. However this guy uses InfusionSoft

I actually keep getting random sales for stuff as I promote his optin page once and he then does all the work for me

Like I say I actually know this guy and he is seeing 500+ optins a day and is currently netting around $115,000 a month !

But affiliates LOVE him and his program as the return is so great !

Thats the key to growth with affiliates... make it convert so well that they spread the word for you about being your affiliate.

To me it makes perfect sense ... why go straight for a sale ?

I am launching something with a partner in a few weeks... That process will be

-Free offer
-Big ticket item then given for free with $1 trial to $97 continuity
-Further higher priced items to be added to the funnel for those that take

So yes a forced continuity but the point is get people into the system for free and then do the work

Dean

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by prashie91

i guess you just have to make them realise that 1) you're not stealing their commissions and wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, and 2) having the opt-in page actually boosts conversion rates

Prashie,

The reality is that neither of these two points is a reason for affiliates to promote products with a vendor's opt-in. The first is knocked down very simply by the observation that there are other products without a vendor's opt-in (to many of us, that's just "game over - problem solved"!), and the second one isn't in dispute anyway: it's just that wise affiliates want to build their own list to boost the conversion-rates rather than having someone else do that for them. Your second comment would have some validity if you were comparing "opt-in" with "no opt-in at all" but that's not the relevant comparison here: it's a question of "vendor's opt-in" or "affiliate's opt-in" that matters. So your comments may be completely true, but realistically they may not be too relevant.

[Lance K]

If I've had success promoting your stuff, I don't care if you put up an opt-in page, call me stupid, or insult my mother.

As long as my $/visitor sent isn't negatively affected, we don't have a problem.

[Rob Anderson]

hi.
why not do a different type of sales page that still works better, like a video page, or something else?

[George Wright]

This is a problem concerning all affiliates, however, especially RE: IM and MMO products. I know I run CCleaner every day. Get it?

I at least want there to be a fighting chance that visitors will buy on their first visit through my hoplink. Anything that takes them off page is not good. Especially because of what Alexa said

there are other products without a vendor's opt-in (to many of us, that's just "game over - problem solved"!)

George Wright

[willyboy104]

Hmm Desmond, a very hot topic one that many have very strong feelings about. I used to never really take this in to consideration but this was before I became a vendor and since then I have listened and thought about this a lot more.

I think as Alexa mentioned its the unethical/misleading vendors who perhaps stole affiliate's commissions that has ruined this for many others. I know that you wouldn't be the type of person to steal affiliates commissions but thats only because I talk to you and trust you however you can never expect every affiliate to do this. Therefore they go with their first judgement or the main opinion throughout the web which is obviously the opt in sales pages are bad.

I also understand that a squeeze page would improve conversions however I would rather allow the affiliate to be able to build their own email list through their marketing efforts as they should not only be rewarded commission for their efforts but also the chance to build an opt in list.

However I think you have solved this case by allowing affiliates to choose from two sales pages one without and one with an opt in box. Surely by allowing this option affiliates would no longer be scared away, however I would keep the sales page without the opt in box as the main one so affiliates don't run off before they get the chance to promote it. Then on the affiliate page mention it so people have a choice.

Personally I won't be touching opt in boxes for my product I am not too keen on them and have heard to many bad things about them plus the sort of affiliates I want to attract would run as fast as they could if they saw an opt in box.

[Chris_Willow]

Originally Posted by George Wright

I at least want there to be a fighting chance that visitors will buy on their first visit through my hoplink. Anything that takes them off page is not good. Especially because of what Alexa said

George Wright

Say they delete the cookies, but they've opted in. If the optin system is set up right, they'll receive your AR sequence with affiliate link already in it. So they get cookied once again if they click any of the links in your email.

It's actually a bad a$s system

Chris

[Hesaidblissfully]

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

Hi Alexa,

I actually have two pages that the affiliates can direct their prospects to right now. So, it's really no worries.

But the thing that worries me is the conversion for the one without squeeze page. The conversion is about 2% and the one with squeeze page converts at about 5% to 6% sometimes even more.

My goal as a niche marketer has always been to make my affiliates money so they love me. ;-) So it really bothers me that they are giving up and decided to change their whole campaigns just because I told them that squeeze pages tend to convert better.

I understand what you're saying. The main issue seems to be that based on your conversion stats, you believe that your affiliates would actually make more money by using the squeeze page/autoresponder follow up approach versus sending traffic directly to the sales page. I don't think your affiliate's trepidation lies with you necessarily, but with the fact that they may not trust any affiliate network's tracking system that much. The fewer opportunities for a "glitch" that causes them to lose their sale, the better.

Another consideration is that even though it may SEEM like the affiliate will make more money in the end by using a squeeze page due to the higher conversion ratio, you have to weigh that against the money they're missing out on by not building their own subscriber list. In other words, that customer who just helped them generate a $40 commission after buying your product, may have been worth several times that if they'd subscribed to the affiliate's own list and gotten subsequent offers. Of course, it depends on the sophistication of the affiliates as well. Some would be more than happy with just the $40 commission.

Just throwing that out there for consideration.

[Prashant_W]

hey alexa, point taken.

then i guess it would simply come down to whether you want to do everything to please your newbie affiliates or focus on the main money makers, the elite affiliates, which the OP says he has.

and anyway, desmond, you said you'd literally crash and burn if your elite affiliates suddenly decided to stop promoting your products. Surely you do have other sources of traffic? Maybe you could work on these other sources to the extent that it eases your dependence on affiliates to make money.

cheers

prashant

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Prashie,

The reality is that neither of these two points is a reason for affiliates to promote products with a vendor's opt-in. The first is knocked down very simply by the observation that there are other products without a vendor's opt-in (to many of us, that's just "game over - problem solved"!), and the second one isn't in dispute anyway: it's just that wise affiliates want to build their own list to boost the conversion-rates rather than having someone else do that for them. Your second comment would have some validity if you were comparing "opt-in" with "no opt-in at all" but that's not the relevant comparison here: it's a question of "vendor's opt-in" or "affiliate's opt-in" that matters. So your comments may be completely true, but realistically they may not be too relevant.

[Desmond Ong]

Originally Posted by prashie91

and anyway, desmond, you said you'd literally crash and burn if your elite affiliates suddenly decided to stop promoting your products. Surely you do have other sources of traffic? Maybe you could work on these other sources to the extent that it eases your dependence on affiliates to make money.

My niche marketing business is pretty much automated and I'm not really a traffic guy. That is why I appreciate my affiliates sooooo much...because they drive all the traffic for me.

Partly also because I'm an active college student (forced by parents to finish my undergraduate degree...dont ask) and time is limited. I do have an assistant who constantly churn out a few articles or so to give me some awesome rankings on Google.

But conversions of the traffic referred by my affiliates are wayyyy more higher than the ones from natural traffic generation method.

Right now, what I am doing is that I place the pitch page of my ClickBank product in a folder...so the URL appears something like www (dot) bla bla bla (dot) com / offer/ and the main homepage will be the opt in form.

This way, affiliates who are browsing through ClickBank will see my sales copy as the homepage and when they decided to join my program as an affiliate -- I will direct them to my affiliate center where they will be given two links for two pages (one page is the squeeze page and another is the sales copy) to refer their traffic to.

[itcoll]

I agree with this.It will be much better if the affiliates use the opt ins instead of the product sellers.I have always been annoyed when sellers use an opt in on their web sites.

[RyanRingold]

Originally Posted by Desmond Ong

Hi Alexa,

I actually have two pages that the affiliates can direct their prospects to right now. So, it's really no worries.

But the thing that worries me is the conversion for the one without squeeze page. The conversion is about 2% and the one with squeeze page converts at about 5% to 6% sometimes even more.

My goal as a niche marketer has always been to make my affiliates money so they love me. ;-) So it really bothers me that they are giving up and decided to change their whole campaigns just because I told them that squeeze pages tend to convert better.

Desmond,

It sounds to me that you need to do a better job explaining the options AND the difference in the 2 pages BEFORE affiliates sign up.

Put up a video on the affiliate sign up page explaining that they can send traffic to either page and that you understand their concern, but your squeeze page WILL make them more money. If you can show them screen shots of conversions or include a quick audio interview of an affiliate who is using the squeeze page successfully... or even a few written testimonials from affiliates.

Get some social proof and handle the objection properly and it shouldn't affect your affiliate registrations.

It will probably increase sign ups.

[robvegas626]

In my niche, I'm doing JVs and cross-promotions with other "gurus" in my niche. I'm not going to direct my list to THEIR squeeze page and have them all sign up for the other guy's list. Now they're getting hit with the other guy's sales offers, plus my own.

I've set up my affiliate system (ECM) so that my affiliate traffic bypasses my squeeze page and goes straight to my sales page. I think that's the best way to keep your squeeze page, but not scare away affiliates.

[yommys01]

I don't hate optin pages but I am always very curious. I just don't sign up for just anything.

I know a warrior who I used to be a subscriber to his list but had to unsubscribe because any message he sends is one stupid offer for me to buy and nothing more.

[CDarklock]

It's all about results. If your offer doesn't convert well enough, I'll drop it. If it does, I'll keep it. I don't care how you set it up.

[theimdude]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It's all about results. If your offer doesn't convert well enough, I'll drop it. If it does, I'll keep it. I don't care how you set it up.

I care as it is my time, my money, MY LIST is send to a product. If the vendor can't understand that then he must stop using affiliates to bring him business.

[thomashoi]

Well, as an affiliate, i do not mind promoting a product with an opt-in page
if i know they are genuine but this takes some time to build up the
reputation.

I guess you need to convince those people that you are actually helping them to
increase conversions without them doing extra stuff.

To increase your reputation, i guess you should really help your affiliates
to get traffic, give them long tail keyword list and teach them about seo
stuff that they can really learn and apply.

[howdo-i]

I no longer promote products that have an opt in form on the sales page.

If the vendor could convince me that every link in every email sent to a prospect that I reffered carried my affiliate code then I might consider it. I want to get paid for each and every sale made to prospects that I referr no matter what products they are sold nor when they are sold to them.

I used to promote products with squeze pages when I was a newbie but I found that they were the ones that converted realy badly for me.

Steve

[apollocreed]

Originally Posted by howdo-i

I no longer promote products that have an opt in form on the sales page.

If the vendor could convince me that every link in every email sent to a prospect that I reffered carried my affiliate code then I might consider it. I want to get paid for each and every sale made to prospects that I referr no matter what products they are sold nor when they are sold to them.

I used to promote products with squeze pages when I was a newbie but I found that they were the ones that converted realy badly for me.

Steve

Is it sales pages WITH pop-over/side/pop-up optin forms that affiliates resent or is it the pure squeeze pages?

If optin forms either as popovers or squeze pages increase your earnings, why does it matter?

By the time you send the potential customer to the vendor's website, the potential customer is already on your list. So how by a vendor having an optin form does it prevent an affiliate from building and growing their list?

Apollo

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by apollocreed

By the time you send the potential customer to the vendor's website, the potential customer is already on your list. So how by a vendor having an optin form does it prevent an affiliate from building and growing their list?

That's not the issue. There are two related issues.

1. If I send my list members to your page and they sign up for your list, you can compete with me in marketing to them.

2. If your page has anything other than a "buy now" button on it, that's something they might click instead, and only "buy now" makes me any money.


Me, I don't care. I send traffic where it makes me the most money. If you're one of my top moneymakers, I'm not going to stop sending you traffic over some idiotic principle.

[JAIDEEP2959]

I don't promote products with opt-in page.

I promoted one fat loss product on Twitter, resulted in 0 sales and over 20 subscribers for that vendor.

Unless product is popular with high gravity, it is risky to promote such product.

[SeanSupplee]

I wont touch a page with an opt in area. If im going to be spending my time and money to promote someone else's product I am here to make sales and earn that commissions. I am NOT here to build your list and I actually find it insulting when people do add an opt in page. Add an optin page somewhere else where YOUR spending your time and money not mine.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by apollocreed

Is it sales pages WITH pop-over/side/pop-up optin forms that affiliates resent or is it the pure squeeze pages?

It's the vendor being in touch by email with prospective customers found by the affiliate. It isn't complicated!

Originally Posted by apollocreed

If optin forms either as popovers or squeze pages increase your earnings, why does it matter?

Dear me ... read the thread, Apollo! And 100 other threads in this forum and other forums!

Originally Posted by apollocreed

By the time you send the potential customer to the vendor's website, the potential customer is already on your list.

And how about the majority who didn't opt in to the affiliate's site/page/blog?!

Originally Posted by apollocreed

So how by a vendor having an optin form does it prevent an affiliate from building and growing their list?

It doesn't, Apollo. That's simply not what the conversation's about! Its existence is hardly justified by the fact that "it doesn't prevent an affiliate from building their list".