The Myopia of Internet Marketing

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A billion years ago (actually 1960), a really smart guy many of you have never heard of named Ted Levitt, wrote this paper called Marketing Myopia that was published in Harvard Business Review.

Theodore Levitt argued that the decline of businesses is usually not due to outmoded technologies, or even to changing markets and tastes. Instead, he said, growth stops and decline begins because top managers focus too narrowly on their existing product niche.

In another topic about postcard marketing, I sort of ranted about my observations of the "Internet Marketing" community that sort of triggered more thoughts about this that I felt deserved discussion from a completely different angle. (Plus, I didn't want to further hijack the original topic)

My posts in the other topic are in reaction to the almost comical way that a lot of individuals the "Internet Marketing" community sort of goes about, "inventing" things for itself, and then in a pitiful, self-aggrandizing fashion attempts to promulgate the almost arrogant elitism that businesspeople not in internet marketing are wholly ignorant or incapable because they don't know how to get onto to the front page of a Google search.

My thoughts about Old Ted's treatise started with my rant...

"That's the funny thing about this "internet marketing" crowd. It's pretty incestuous in its thinking. I think the fact that so many people involved in internet marketing live and breathe technology and bleeding edge stuff, that they lose sight and perspective of a much larger, pre-existing, very successful world that created multi-billion dollar, global corporate business giants. And just because the internet has brought more efficiency and metrics to certain aspects of marketing & sales, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world is somehow stupid or unsuccessful."

This was a response to the whole fanboy trend in direct mail marketing in the IM community, like somehow or another we've invented something new.

I came into the world of internet marketing as a successful entrepreneur (not Bill Gates, but not ashamed of myself either) and professional guy with a strong technology background and a deep, fundamental understanding of buying behavioral analysis and marketing process that existed long before internet technology. In the olden days, it was direct mail, phone rooms, and channel distribution. These days, it's email and JV affiliate programs.

The problem that I see is that as a lot of people try to swim upstream into the realm of broader, general marketing as a function of overall business process, they're further and further out of their element and understanding.

It's akin to a roofer trying to put shingles on a house that doesn't have a proper foundation poured yet. We don't build houses from the top down. At least if we want the house to last.

Likewise, we don't build a business by starting with some tool, trick, or technology... at least if we want the business to be more than an extemporaneous cult of personality or lasting asset that extends beyond a name or cool web video blog post. (no offense intended to well-known marketing guys that I like and respect) Businesses start with a customer that has a need or want, and a willingness to pay someone to solve that need or want. It's customer focused... not technology or technique focused.

I challenge every single Warrior on this forum to spend some time, thinking about your perspective and motivations, and how you're going about trying to build your business. I see a lot of people getting in to internet marketing, and even touting themselves as marketing gurus, who literally have no idea what they're doing past some tricks and techniques spawned from the latest technology trends. I even see more people advising other business clients who really need to read a book about business fundamentals before meeting with another client prospect.

Now, I am not trying to be obtuse or suggest that fueled with Tony Robbins' latest videos, people shouldn't fly to the highest of heights and achieve great success.

Go for it.

Just don't get all "Uncle Daddy" incestuous in your thinking because you're not also looking to a much bigger world of business experience out there.

...one that long pre-dated the internet.
#internet #marketing #myopia
  • Profile picture of the author patfl
    Michael,

    That's very true, and to go even a little bit further, remove the technology, the business science etc, what remains is a set of human behaviors that control everything else.

    Patrice
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Hi Michael

      Good post. I haven't got around to reading the "postcard" thread yet, but I'll admit to having similar thoughts when I see some questions from marketers who are jumping on the offline bandwagon yet are clearly out of their depth dealing with established offline businesses.



      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by Patrice Le Vexier View Post

          Michael,

          That's very true, and to go even a little bit further, remove the technology, the business science etc, what remains is a set of human behaviors that control everything else.

          Patrice
          YES INDEED! It starts with a stimulus that gets filtered.... {watching everyone's eyes glaze over...}

          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          Hi Michael

          Good post. I haven't got around to reading the "postcard" thread yet, but I'll admit to having similar thoughts when I see some questions from marketers who are jumping on the offline bandwagon yet are clearly out of their depth dealing with established offline businesses.



          Frank
          Certainly the offline market is part of it, but the same can be said for even pure online models.

          Adsense blogs? Who is the customer? There is a customer.

          It's the business paying for the ad through the G channel.


          Affiliate marketing? Who is the customer?

          And so on and so forth.

          I think a lot of people get derailed in the technology. The focus shifts to amorphous techniques and tactics.... just put this link here and put this file on this server here and VOILA! LOOKIE!!! I'm a 'bidnessman'!

          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Very interesting indeed; thanks. Unusually, it was myopia in 1960 and hasn't yet become presbyopia.
          Quite the paradox huh. I think that presbyopia exists, but in a different area, one that Eben Pagan, Tony Robbins, Frank Kern, et al are trying to address in this market.

          Look... over there... shiny object...
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          • Profile picture of the author xiaophil
            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            YES INDEED! It starts with a stimulus that gets filtered....
            ... to form an internal model. This is a fascinating process. By altering the filter (also an internal construct) one can change the model and therefore also change the perception of the stimulus itself. Considering that the filtered stimulus is usually considered to be reality, this is profound, and possibly one of today's most underutilized technologies.
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            • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
              Originally Posted by xiaophil View Post

              ... to form an internal model. This is a fascinating process. By altering the filter (also an internal construct) one can change the model and therefore also change the perception of the stimulus itself. Considering that the filtered stimulus is usually considered to be reality, this is profound, and possibly one of today's most underutilized technologies.

              Aww man... you got it... and then how to construct a marketing process that not only aligns with, but can strongly influence the behavior feedback loop hrough incremental impressions as the prospect moves from one phase of the buying process to the next.

              Once you understand it, you also recognize how the entire world around you is a fabricated reality at the hands of those who actually put it into practice.

              It's NLP expanded beyond language to the entire world around you.

              It's Tom Cruise running through the shopping mall in the Minority Report.

              It's "The Matrix...." heh heh heh

              But it sure as hell isn't new.
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              • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                But it sure as hell isn't new.
                The more that things change,...
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            • Profile picture of the author patfl
              Originally Posted by xiaophil View Post

              ... to form an internal model. This is a fascinating process. By altering the filter (also an internal construct) one can change the model and therefore also change the perception of the stimulus itself. Considering that the filtered stimulus is usually considered to be reality, this is profound, and possibly one of today's most underutilized technologies.
              It's a very old technology that has been re-branded by some marketing geniuses as NLP...

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              • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                Originally Posted by Patrice Le Vexier View Post

                It's a very old technology that has been re-branded by some marketing geniuses as NLP...

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                • Profile picture of the author patfl
                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                  Nice chart, thanks for sharing, it looks much better than my old handmade one!

                  Patrice
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                  • Profile picture of the author xiaophil
                    Originally Posted by Patrice Le Vexier View Post

                    Nice chart, thanks for sharing, it looks much better than my old handmade one!
                    Patrice
                    Yes, a very nice graphic, although I personally like a bigger kitchen.

                    Seriously though, I am wondering why the feedback loop closes on "Needs & Predisposition".

                    Doesn't behavior feed back to the environment (e.g company, people)?

                    I may be misinterpreting the context, but the chart as it stands seems to suggest that the subject has no influence at all over their environment.

                    Would you be able to clarify that for me? Perhaps a brief verbal description of the depicted process?

                    Thanks
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                    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                      Originally Posted by xiaophil View Post

                      Yes, a very nice graphic, although I personally like a bigger kitchen.

                      Seriously though, I am wondering why the feedback loop closes on "Needs & Predisposition".

                      Doesn't behavior feed back to the environment (e.g company, people)?

                      I may be misinterpreting the context, but the chart as it stands seems to suggest that the subject has no influence at all over their environment.

                      Would you be able to clarify that for me? Perhaps a brief verbal description of the depicted process?

                      Thanks
                      Once someone acts or behaves to decrease or eliminate the tension that builds through the prior stages, the consumer compares their expectations and fulfillment in the feedback process. The outcome of this comparison affects future behavior. To that extent, the future behavior could indeed be to change their environment, but in this model, the feedback leads to reinforcement of patterns and habitual action.

                      Of course, continued reinforcement leads to the development of an actual habitual behavior, which is an ideal condition for a marketer because this is where "brand loyalty" starts. This is also why "feedback" is depicted to revert back to "needs & predispositions", which are the "filters" through which an individual uses to convert to a conscious perception. Feedback could indeed loop back to perception and motives without going so far up the chain to influencing the actual basic psychological needs and dispositions. But anything prior to the filter of needs & predispositions in the model is actually subconscious.

                      Now their eyes are REALLY glazed over.

                      (cognitive dissonance is another really fun one)
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                      • Profile picture of the author discrat
                        Okay , maybe I am a dumbarse but you people in this thread lost me a long time ago !!

                        I do get you on the part about building a solid foundation for a lasting business. But there is another side to that idealogy. Its called the guy who somehow and someway scrapes and claws his way by Hustling to earn that almighty buck. It may not be pretty ,it may not be textbook ,but I have seen it throughout my enitre Life. These guys work in a very unorthodox way but they build cash flow machines that keep producing and producing for many years !! Its definitely not the the standard Business Model they teach in school.

                        But some people just have this knack and I learned along time ago that MONEY is MONEY. Whether you find success predicated on your Harvard Business School education or you find Success by hawking the next best product through pounding the streets and using every hustling trick in the book to do it.

                        When it comes down to it the question is can you sustain a certain amount of Cash Flow over time ?? Whether that be from the street saavy businessman or the Kellogg Graduate in the Corporate World.
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                        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                          Okay , maybe I am a dumbarse but you people in this thread lost me a long time ago !!
                          1. internet marketing isn't the end-all, say-all of business
                          2. all business is not a failure for not engaging in common internet marketing practices
                          3. internet marketing folks have no reason to elevate themselves in stature above other businesses solely because of their internet marketing knowledge
                          4. technology itself doesn't create a business
                          5. marketing, by itself, isn't a business
                          6. really nerdy people, who understand the human psyche in frightening ways, can use their knowledge to influence your behaviors in ways you don't even realize
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                          • Profile picture of the author discrat
                            Great points Michael.

                            I guess the way I view all this is this. Why do you assume that everyone in here cares about building a business ?? Or more importantly why is it so important that they do ??
                            Why is building a standard business the end all be all ?? It seems like you have been insinuating the altruism of this notion throughout this Thread.

                            The fact is there are plenty of wealthy people in this World who were entrepreneurs and didnt build any kind of businesses based on traditional models but produced Cash Flow machines. These cash flow machines were not based on any funadamental business Models at least the kind you are talking about. The Stock Market and Real Estate are prime examples of this.

                            Honestly, I really am not that enamored with building a business like you talk about with Internet Marketing. I am interested in building another stream of Cash Flow to add to my existing streams of cash flow. That is what I am interested in.

                            If you want to really get to the core of the matter well............what ENRICHES your Life ?? To me building a traditional business does not do this. Developing streams of income so it will give me more freedom in my Life to spend with Family, Church etc.....is what ENRICHES me.

                            And by the way I partially disagree with what you say about Marketing. Marketing is an extremely valuable tool that may not be a business in of itself but it is a tool that can produce large amounts of Income. And this is what many so called traditional Businesses aim and strive to do. So your interpretation of this notion can be looked at in different angles.

                            Personally, to me sustainable cash flow is all I am worried about !! And Its all my family is worried about !! And all the debt collectors are worried about !!
                            Of course along the way I want to give something that will be of benefit to people and work in a manner of integrity !! You have got to do that.
                            But it doesnt have to be looked at as a traditional business.

                            Screw building a textbook business !!
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                            • Profile picture of the author zankee
                              You've hit the nail on the head, none of us are doing anything new here, simply put we are trying to find the most efficient solution to peoples problems, make some money and hopefully provide great value to the person who was looking for the solution.
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                            • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                              This...

                              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                              ...
                              Honestly, I really am not that enamored with building a business like you talk about with Internet Marketing. ...
                              ...doesn't support this...

                              Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                              ...

                              Personally, to me sustainable cash flow is all I am worried about !!...
                              If it were possible to create sustainable cash flow any other way, there would be no need for these awful support mechanisms that hang around business owner's necks like shackles. None of us "business people" actually want employees and offices.

                              But because we recognize the need to develop sustainable means of generating revenue, we accept the fact that we eventually must turn it into an actual organizational structure to maximize our own efforts.

                              Yes, virtualization of business process has indeed helped, but at the end of the day, it's not about cash flow, it's about the value of the asset.

                              Case in point... how much salary do you think Bill Gates took from Microsoft? When he deposited his paycheck, how much do you think was there?

                              It's reported that he took around $400,000 per year.

                              The reason Bill Gates has billions of dollars is because he created an ASSET. A sales promotion isn't an asset. The asset is valued at a level greater than the cashflow at any given moment - usually a multiple of earnings.

                              There's also major tax implications to cash vs. assets - but that's a much different discussion.

                              BTW, by "sustainable", I mean, something that I can pass down to my great grand children.
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                              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                This...



                                ...doesn't support this...



                                If it were possible to create sustainable cash flow any other way, there would be no need for these awful support mechanisms that hang around business owner's necks like shackles. None of us "business people" actually want employees and offices.

                                But because we recognize the need to develop sustainable means of generating revenue, we accept the fact that we eventually must turn it into an actual organizational structure to maximize our own efforts.

                                Yes, virtualization of business process has indeed helped, but at the end of the day, it's not about cash flow, it's about the value of the asset.
                                I just totally disagree with this. So you are saying the only way to sustain Cash Flow is
                                eventually turning your endeavour into an actual Organizational structure !! Come on , in all due respect, that is just very, very limited thinking.

                                And it is not always about the value of the Asset. Money is Money. One of the reasons Bill Gates got so rich was back when Windows 95 came out. And do you know how much money he made for an extended time off the Royalties of Windows ?? He was booking $250 million a month for a long time. That is cold, hard cash.

                                As a Swing/Futures Trader in the Markets, Cash Flow is the only thing that matters. You have guys who have NO Organizational Structure whatsoever and make literally Millions each year as solo players. Incidentally, yes many of them will be able to pass alot of this down to their great grandchildren's grandchilderen !!

                                Maybe your assertions about having to have this Organizational structure is in regards to just IM ??
                                But even with that I have to disagree. Once again it all depends of what you want with your Life.

                                Just check out the Site, Plenty of Fish. It is a documented FACT that Marcus Frind the Owner is a solo player with NO Organizational Structure to speak of. And he makes over 10K a day with Adsense. This is all on Record.

                                This totally refutes what you are claiming !
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                                • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                  Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                                  I just totally disagree with this. So you are saying the only way to sustain Cash Flow is
                                  eventually turning you endeavour into an actual Orginazational structure !! Come on in all due respect that is just very, very limited thinking.

                                  And it is not always about the value of the Asset. Money is Money. One of the reasons Bill Gates got so rich was back when Windows 95 came out and do you know how much money he made for a long while off the Royalties ?? He was booking 250 million a month for a long time. That is cold, hard cash.

                                  As a Swing/Futures Trader in the Markets, Cash Flow is the only thing that matters. You have guys who have NO Organizational Structure and make literally Millions each year as a solo players.

                                  Maybe your assertions about having to have this Organizational structure is in regards to just IM ??
                                  But even with that I have to disagree. Once again it all depends of what you want with your Life.

                                  Just check out the Site, Plenty of Fish. It is a documented FACT that Marcus Frind the Owner is a solo player with NO Organizational Structure to speak of. And he makes over 10K a day with Adsense. This is all on Record.

                                  This totally refutes what you are claiming !
                                  No it doesn't refute it.

                                  If Google shuts down Adsense tomorrow, without membership revenue, Marcus is SOL. Finis. Kaput. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

                                  Sure, it was a great ride, and hopefully he's turned that cash into some other assets after having paid his taxes on the income (gack). But in the end, it's not "sustainable". Period. It's wholly reliant on a single trick that could be choked off for any number of reasons.

                                  But Marcus actually does have a "business" because he has a virtual organization that extends beyond his own efforts, and he's diversified his revenue while serving a very distinct CUSTOMER.

                                  BTW... Bill Gates wasn't personally earning $250 million/month. His BUSINESS was earning $250 million/month, which is why the asset valuation was some 30 times annual earnings at that point.

                                  But I think you've actually missed the real point that we are probably closer on than further away.... A virtual business is still a business. A business isn't the actual organizational structure or physical infrastructure. It's the system built around the focus of serving a customer who is paying you for something.

                                  There are indeed examples of flat, even virtual businesses that qualify as the asset that I am describing. Thanks to technology, we can do this now a lot easier than having to fill giant rooms full of cubicles. Marcus isn't the programmer, the accountant, the attorney, the tech support, the graphic designer, etc... He's coordinating these things within an organized ecosystem.

                                  That's a lot different than what goes on here to a very large degree on WF.

                                  My original point was addressing the mistaken notion of a lot of internet marketers that their income is based on some "technique".

                                  1. put up some code on a server
                                  2. send out some links to other servers
                                  3. watch the paypal account get fatty

                                  HA!

                                  Code isn't a customer.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author discrat
                                    Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                    No it doesn't refute it.

                                    If Google shuts down Adsense tomorrow, without membership revenue, Marcus is SOL. Finis. Kaput. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

                                    Sure, it was a great ride, and hopefully he's turned that cash into some other assets after having paid his taxes on the income (gack).

                                    But in the end, it's not "sustainable". Period. It's wholly reliant on a single trick that could be choked off for any number of reasons.

                                    Bill Gates wasn't personally earning $250 million/month. His BUSINESS was earning $250 million/month, which is why the asset valuation was some 30 times annual earnings at that point.

                                    But I think you've actually missed the real point that we are probably closer on than further away.... A virtual business is still a business. A business isn't the actual organizational structure, but the focus of a customer who is paying you for something.

                                    There are indeed examples of flat, even virtual businesses that qualify as the asset that I am describing.

                                    My original point was addressing the mistaken notion of a lot of internet marketers that their income is based on some "technique".

                                    1. put up some code on a server
                                    2. send out some links to other servers
                                    3. watch the bank account get fatty

                                    HA!

                                    Code isn't a customer.
                                    I think banking $10 million which Frind did in the last two years is pretty 'sustainable' in my book !! .
                                    Even if Adsense shuts him down tomorrow.
                                    All what you say above can be applied to literally thousands of ONLINE and OFFLINE businesses . The fact of the matter is there are inherent risks that at times are beyond anyone's control. Thats Life !!

                                    My question is whats your point ??
                                    If an Offline Business like Famous Amos makes $25 million by selling Chocalate Chip Cookies and then the FDA comes in one day and shuts down his business because his Cookies dont meet standards then according to you his Model was flawed and unsustainable. Well, who the heck cares when you got $25 million dollars in your pocket even with taxes ?? Your definiton of 'sustainable' is extremely subjective and in my opinion limited !! Its all relative.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                      Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                                      I think banking $10 million which Frind did in the last two years is pretty 'sustainable' in my book !! . Even if Adsense shuts him down tomorrow.
                                      I clarified my original post. I think we agree on more than we disagree.

                                      It's all in the perspective.

                                      $5 million per year in revenue, as a business asset vs. just personal income, could be valued in the range of $50 million to $150 million - quite a difference in "sustainablility".

                                      In a way, it's ghetto mentality. Hell, drug dealers and pimps make fat bank. Got a big wad of cash in their pocket! Gold toof and a grill. Caddy Escalade for a ride.

                                      The point I was addressing was the fact that Marcus understands who his customer "is". Versus the soul-less void that a lot of WF folks thinks is the Prime Directive source of vast, untapped riches... all you have to do is copy this code onto a bazillion websites... and VOILA! PROFIT! Blast out a quintillion articles to these sites, and I'll get a hexadrillion visitors to my adsense site. BANK BABY! And lest we forget... the whole "DAMN you're stupid for not knowing how to do it too..." thing.

                                      And no, what you described with your Famous Amos idea is not what I am describing.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author discrat
                                        Hey Michael I really have enjoyed this debate. Damn, I wasted more than an hour of time when I was supposed to write 3 Follow ups for my Autoresponder.
                                        Oh Well !!

                                        I really agree with a lot of what you have to say. I guess it is just perspective.

                                        I have to admit you provide lots of insightful points and its refreshing to see quality posters in here like yourself take the time out to impart some of that Wisdom and experience.
                                        Thanks.

                                        But now I am going to have to retire to bed. Good night
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                                    • Profile picture of the author megabuck4u
                                      Thanks. Good content. I will be happy if more light is thrown on the Graph: Basic Consumer Behavior model or where can I get a write up on it? The information will be helpful to those of us that have limited knowledge on understanding Graph.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                    Originally Posted by Richard Odell View Post

                                    The ones that don't produce product yes - but you can't tar us all with the same brush - a lot of us have multiple streams of income and unlike conventional businesses, are able bend in the wind and grow stronger in stormy conditions.

                                    We survive longer because we have multiple "techniques", where as conventional businesses fail more regularly "because" of the liability of they're assets.

                                    Getting pretty tired of folks continually trying to tie us down to being businesses (I got out of the off-line world so I could generate "income" not "cash flow" - which by its very wording yells, in one hand, out of the next).

                                    Be a "business" if you want - I'll stick to being a freelance author.

                                    -Rich
                                    Per my prior clarifications about Marcus... a single guy can indeed be a "business".
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                                    • Profile picture of the author David Chung
                                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                                      Per my prior clarifications about Marcus... a single guy can indeed be a "business".
                                      I think everyone should look at themselves as the boss of their very own business, the head of their own operation, the CEO of Yours Truly Incorporated. You choose how you'll allocate the limited resources of time, energy, and money that your company has, and if you want to get wealthy you'll need to figure out how to increase company profits. When you get a job at a company, you shouldn't think that you're working for somebody else, but that you're leasing out Yours Truly Inc. to another company for a certain amount of compensation.

                                      Why is it so important to look at yourself as a business? Businesses need to do market research, they assess consumer demand, invest in research and development & employee training... These are all things that we expect a successful business to do if it wants to remain successful and relevant.

                                      When you think of an employee or a freelancer, all these things don't automatically come to mind. Some people think it's okay for an employee to remain stagnant because they're getting that paycheck anyway. A freelancer may think that if they're making enough money to get by and save a little in the bank they can just cruise and do what they're doing now.

                                      If a business wants to be successful and continue to grow, it can't afford to rest on its laurels, and neither can Yours Truly Inc.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                                        Originally Posted by david2885 View Post

                                        Why is it so important to look at yourself as a business?
                                        That's the question.

                                        The obvious answer is - because most businesses consider the value of what they have and think that profit is a useful outcome from selling/trading that value.

                                        If you mentally avoid taking your activities seriously because you can't feel right when calling them business - you can easily waste time and money on things which if approached with common sense would never have happened or been done.

                                        Taking the "I'm not a business and I refuse to treat my activities like one" approach is an easy excuse for why your activities aren't profitable and won't be assessed for ROI in an objective way.

                                        In reality - if you say yes to making a website, you're saying no to time with friends and loved ones - call it what you want, but it should be 'worth' doing.

                                        Andy
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                                    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                      Originally Posted by Richard Odell View Post


                                      Fine - but look at what is happening in the real world right now - they're not doing too well are they? They're so called assets are now depreciating into receivership...
                                      Well, not really. Major restructures, but the last time I checked, even General Motors was still building billions of dollars worth of automobiles in billions of dollars worth of production facilities.

                                      This industry is over a decade old now - we are new the world of commerce, our techniques sell billions of dollars of product a year - do we really need any more help from the failing older order of business that is now dying on its arse?

                                      The world has turned full circle - the cottage industry is back and here to stay - far from being nearsighted our vision is fine.

                                      -Rich
                                      The "new world of commerce" was invented by major corporate entities that pioneered ecommerce and emarketing. In most cases, funded by major corporate investment bankers.

                                      Companies like IBM & Microsoft were supplying the infrastructure needs. Horizontal technology companies were enabling vertical niche application players. AT&T and Quest were providing bandwidth.

                                      Cottage industry?

                                      Maybe read up some Geoffrey Moore and Bill Davidow.

                                      It wasn't invented by a bunch of kids sitting around in their Che Guevera t-shirts drinking energy drinks. I know that's the self-image that got popularized by a lot of young people, but at the end of the day, it's the corporate players and institutional money that made it all happen - and still controls it to this day.

                                      Furthermore, while commerce as a whole is certainly merging its activities with the online world... Boeing isn't going to sell very many $60 million dollar jets because some foreign dignitary clicked on an adsense ad.

                                      Your thinking is exactly the self-aggrandizing, incestuous fallacy that I am talking about.

                                      Old order business is hardly dying. Or is that why so many socialists around the world continue to clamor about the ever increasing power of multi-national corporations?

                                      For kicks, go look at the percentage of Wal-Mart's in-store sales vs. online, and then come tell me some more about the new world of commerce.

                                      I swear I think it's 1996 again. I remember everyone quoting Don Tapscott, swearing that in 10 years grocery stores will cease to exist because everyone will buy their food from peapod.com

                                      lol
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                                      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                        Originally Posted by Richard Odell View Post

                                        No you are quite - they where kids producing computer kits in garages (take it you've heard of a young man by the name of Steve Wozniack).

                                        Cottage industry....

                                        Sorry, but I get a distinct feeling that you have a distaste for our industry, if so why are you here - using a technique of forum posting to build up authority?

                                        :confused:

                                        lol... I've made my entire net worth in life from "internet marketing". But I also understand things from a much deeper, wider experience level than the "kids" that run to and fro.

                                        There's nothing about what I am saying that is "distaste" for internet marketing. My first 7 figure sales year in "internet marketing" was in 1996. You want to know how?

                                        I sold 70 web development projects for no less than $50,000 each.


                                        Mine is an observation from someone that's been around the block a time or two - who's reacting to many of the self-aggrandizing, common expressions (more than likely made by a lot of very inexperienced, young people who have a very limited view of the world) like:
                                        • businesses that don't do business like we do are stupid and will fail
                                        • this is the only valid form of commerce in the glorious new utopia
                                        • this is the biggest baddest form of business in all the universe
                                        • we invented this business
                                        • we invented marketing
                                        • we invented direct marketing
                                        • the most successful, richest internet marketers are Cory Rudl, Frank Kern, Mike Filsaime, et al. (not a knock on these successful guys, they do well)
                                        • the highest earning direct marketers are Tony Robbins, Dan Kennedy and Jay Abraham (not a knock on these successful guys, they do well too)
                                        • no other forms of marketing work
                                        • ad nauseum ad infinitum
                                        What I am saying is that there's a much wider, deeper world of business out there, rich in history, lessons of success and failure, and metaphors that can be repackaged and adopted into a new strategy.

                                        Listen and learn, or dismiss and go on down the road. Makes no difference to me in the end.

                                        Originally Posted by Richard Odell View Post

                                        None taken - I just feel that you may just be a little high brow for the Mom and Pop members of this forum who just want make a few bucks online, with the potential to make themsleves financially secure in the future....

                                        You come a cross as a corporate consultant (that scares some folks)

                                        -Rich
                                        Well I AM a corporate consultant/coach. A pretty good one too.

                                        Not sure what you mean by "high brow". Advanced?

                                        So you're suggesting that I charge money for what I provide in the general forum for free?

                                        Sure, I might have a very different perspective, but then again, I quoted a Beavis & Butthead episode in this same thread.

                                        Scroll up and look.

                                        I did.

                                        I really did.

                                        Pull my finger.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                                          Originally Posted by Richard Odell View Post

                                          No need, I started to smell something earlier - I am beginning to like you for some perverse reason.

                                          Suppose that's what this forum is all about - differing opinions.

                                          In the end we will all continue to make money - what ever route we take - given that we it keep it simple for the end user....

                                          -Rich
                                          Hey man, I am corporatish, but the truth is, if you drilled a hole in my forehead, a 12 year old would jump out telling poop jokes and pinching the girl's butts.

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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Michael,

              Every 6 months - Google slap.

              Coming soon - eBay affiliate slap

              Coming in 2010 or 2011 - Amazon affiliate slap

              And each time people who thought they had a meal ticket for life are in serious trouble.

              I think the dinosaurs must have been internet marketers.

              Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author xiaophil
                Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                But it sure as hell isn't new.
                Originally Posted by Patrice Le Vexier View Post

                It's a very old technology...
                Quite right, and I never meant to infer it was new, perhaps "one of the most underutilized technologies today" would have been a better phrase.

                Truth is though it's really quite well utilized today, just not always in the best interests of the subjects.

                I had "Psycho Cybernetics" sitting on my bookshelf for years before I read it. Wished I had done that before practitioner training, it contained a fair chunk of the core material.

                Also, in a very old text on Raja Yoga, I once read a guide to remapping submodalities.

                I must say though that Grinder's "New Code" (which actually is quite new) is an interesting development, and "Whispering In The Wind" is well worth a look.
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          • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
            Hi MIchael,

            Great post!

            Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

            I think a lot of people get derailed in the technology. The focus shifts to amorphous techniques and tactics.... just put this link here and put this file on this server here and VOILA! LOOKIE!!! I'm a 'bidnessman'!
            Oh they are, and the worse part about it is when one gets derailed, you have 1,000 other parrots following.



            Quite the paradox huh. I think that presbyopia exists, but in a different area, one that Eben Pagan, Tony Robbins, Frank Kern, et al are trying to address in this market.

            Look... over there... shiny object...
            Yup! lol I was thinking something similar the other eve. They are trying to address it, but I wonder just how many are listing instead of thinking about what techniques these guys are going to teach them next.

            Anyway, thanks for the post ...


            Mary
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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    That's ok, people can keep going around beating the drum for "get on the first page of Google" all they want. It makes no difference when only a tiny fraction of companies have a viable web presence, and most of those that do are wasting what they've got.

    It's like paying for a premium listing in a telephone directory then hiring teenagers with no phone experience to answer the phones. You don't bother to train them either, b/c you figure, "what's complicated about answering the phone?"
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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Adamson
      Originally Posted by SageSound View Post

      It's like paying for a premium listing in a telephone directory then hiring teenagers with no phone experience to answer the phones.
      Very well articulated. Can I quote you???

      A few years back I decided to add web usability to my consulting business, as there was a real need for it among local businesses. With a background in software and UI design, I may not be a guru but I knew I could do better than what I saw on the web. It bombed. No business I talked to was interested. They did not see that their site was in need of improvement. All they wanted was more traffic. LOL...
      Signature
      Could You Be Squeezing More Sales Out Of Your Traffic ?
      Free Report
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  • I've been in business in the corporate world and in small and medium-sized firms. No matter what jargon or hoo-hah gets thrown around by perfessers at business schools, it's really frickin' simple:

    If what comes in is more than what goes out every day, week, month and year, you've got yourself a successful business model on which to build.

    As for marketing, that's totally simple as well:

    Market: Group of people with wants or needs.
    Marketer: Person who tells a story to connect a product to the fulfillment of a market's wants and needs.
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by SurviveUnemployment View Post

      I've been in business in the corporate world and in small and medium-sized firms. No matter what jargon or hoo-hah gets thrown around by perfessers at business schools, it's really frickin' simple:

      If what comes in is more than what goes out every day, week, month and year, you've got yourself a successful business model on which to build.

      As for marketing, that's totally simple as well:

      Market: Group of people with wants or needs.
      Marketer: Person who tells a story to connect a product to the fulfillment of a market's wants and needs.
      I sort of agree and sort of dont - depending on the perspective.

      It's not that simple.

      Marketing by itself doesn't make a lasting business. While conditions can create the opportunity for revenue income, as many here have learned the hard way, a techinque or trick that is reliant upon some anomaly isn't really a lasting business asset.

      Case in point.... what would happen to a very large portion of the members here if, through some issue, Clickbank went away? Sure, other companies would scramble to fill the void, but a lot of people are going to be out of business, and may never recover.

      What would happen to even very successful members of Amway if the company disappeared? Sure, they could build a new organization in some other company, but again... marketing alone is NOT A BUSINESS. It's a necessary PART of a business.
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      • Marketing by itself doesn't make a lasting business. While conditions can create the opportunity for revenue income, as many here have learned the hard way, a techinque or trick that is reliant upon some anomaly isn't really a lasting business asset.
        I could not agree more. Any given marketing campaign is here today and gone tomorrow. The asset is the ability to create campaigns, to tap into the market and fill its needs.

        Interesting what you said about Clickbank. It is just one marketing channel. Any good marketer knows that you need multiple channels, even for a single product.

        I could not agree more that marketing is only one facet of business. Good thread.
        Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Don Schenk
    If I had a dollar for every postcard and direct mail piece I have sent out... But wait, I do have a dollar - actually more than a dollar - for every direct mail piece I've sent out.
    After all, that is why I sent them out.

    Yes, some of them bombed, that is why we test. It's a simple concept.

    About 6 months ago I began hearing/reading IMers talk about postcards as if they were some new form of magic. Then I realized many of these IMers are youngsters. I can say that because I am an oldster who began mailing postcards by the tens of thousands before most of them were born.

    There really is a relatively simple "science" to it, and if you target the right audience with the message they want to hear (not the one they need to hear), and you promise a solution through well written copy... it doesn't matter if you sent the message to them by direct mail, newsprint, or carrier pidgeon... as long as it gets to the correct prospect it can bring sales.

    :-Don
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  • Profile picture of the author kennethtang
    My posts in the other topic are in reaction to the almost comical way that a lot of individuals the "Internet Marketing" community sort of goes about, "inventing" things for itself, and then in a pitiful, self-aggrandizing fashion attempts to promulgate the almost arrogant elitism that businesspeople not in internet marketing are wholly ignorant or incapable because they don't know how to get onto to the front page of a Google search.

    My thoughts about Old Ted's treatise started with my rant...

    "That's the funny thing about this "internet marketing" crowd. It's pretty incestuous in its thinking. I think the fact that so many people involved in internet marketing live and breathe technology and bleeding edge stuff, that they lose sight and perspective of a much larger, pre-existing, very successful world that created multi-billion dollar, global corporate business giants. And just because the internet has brought more efficiency and metrics to certain aspects of marketing & sales, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world is somehow stupid or unsuccessful."
    Hallelujah! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

    At least one person here has got their feet planted firmly on the (business) ground, and who still retains a fundamental respect for the dignity and intelligence of customers/clients, without imputing ignorance or stupidity on them because they have no autoresponder sign up form on their site.

    Someone who knows that the ability to upload some text to a web page does not a consultant make, that business is more than any one component of the whole -- no matter how "in" or "bleeding edge" it seems to its (current) aficionados.

    Oh, BTW, did I say "thank you"?
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Unfortunately, I think a lot of the script kiddies will see this topic and think, "HUH HU HHUH HUH HUH UH UH HUUH HU HH WORDS HUH UH UH UH UH UH UUH HHUHU HUH HU HU UH"
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  • Profile picture of the author Swanton84
    Banned
    Interesting post. Keep it up.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hi Michael,

    For of all - Thanks for this thread and the discussion it's encouraged.

    I'm with you on most of your comments.

    The one thing I think causes a little confusion for some people is the use of labels like 'business'.

    I appreciate that labels are important and save us having to go back to first principles to explain everything, but in this case I think some discussion on what a 'business' is (in your perception and for others) might open up some interesting debate too.

    For example, it's MY perspective that while we can all happily consider ourselves as individuals when we're refering to our Internet Marketing entities, it's pretty true that as soon as we start 'doing' the Internet Marketing - we start engaging in processes which could be considered as 'doing business'.

    So, while some people will nominalize the term and think of business as a thing. What you seem to be intimating is that while you are talking about business structure and multi-person organisational systems, what you're really aiming at during that is the processes that are going on.

    So if someone says - I'm not a business, it's just me and throw up MFA sites, so there's no customer, no product and I'm alone in my business - The fact that there are customers paying Google, Niche research to consider good paying keywords and markets (i.e customer identification since Adsense is all about accessing the advertising dollars of the Adwords clients), and then creating sites, perhaps outsourcing content, buying tools, scripts, plugins, templates etc... - The fact that it's just one person doing these things doesn't mean they're not in business - it just means that they're doing all of the required jobs of their business themselves.

    You could call creating a suitable template for an Adsense site - a sales/marketing process, especially if it's based on market research.


    The psychology behind making money doesn't change - it's just that most IMers focus on the tools of the trade rather than the business of making money.

    That's the 'business' we're all in - making money.

    Arguing over the semantics of whether you want to be called a business is missing the point. If you engaging in business processes in order to make money - you're in business.

    online / offline, one person, many people, official structure or gut instinct - is all secondary - we're all in business - we all sell and we all market - that's just part of life.

    In my opinion.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      ...
      So, while some people will nominalize the term and think of business as a thing. What you seem to be intimating is that while you are talking about business structure and multi-person organisational systems, what you're really aiming at during that is the processes that are going on.
      What I am suggesting is that the internet is a paradox in that it simultaneously connects every individual on the planet in an instantaneous fashion while creating this phenomenal disconnect in human communication.

      As such, there's a correlating disconnect between the "things people do" and the "money people earn". Do this, this, this, and this, in this sequence, and you'll get money deposited in your paypal account.

      No understanding of the "why and how" on the other end.

      Because of a certain validity of the cause-and-effect analysis of what I described, I have observed a lot of internet marketing folks (probably a lot of young people) abstracting the concepts and turning them into a sort of gospel. RE: Richard O'Dell (sorry Rich, I am not trying to make this personal and pick on you, but you do illustrate my points so very well).
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Rich-

    "None taken - I just feel that you may just be a little high brow for the Mom and Pop members of this forum who just want make a few bucks online, with the potential to make themsleves financially secure in the future....

    You come a cross as a corporate consultant (that scares some folks)

    -Rich"

    It's nice that you're looking out for those mom and pops - are you sure you're not just transferring your own feelings onto them?

    I know it's not easy to have an intellectual conversation around here sometimes, but you don't have to rail-road him out for trying

    Michael
    Mine is an observation from someone that's been around the block a time or two - who's reacting to many of the self-aggrandizing, common expressions (more than likely made by a lot of very inexperienced, young people who have a very limited view of the world) like:
    • businesses that don't do business like we do are stupid and will fail
    • this is the only valid form of commerce in the glorious new utopia
    • this is the biggest baddest form of business in all the universe
    • we invented this business
    • we invented marketing
    • we invented direct marketing
    • the most successful, richest internet marketers are Cory Rudl, Frank Kern, Mike Filsaime, et al. (not a knock on these successful guys, they do well)
    • the highest earning direct marketers are Tony Robbins, Dan Kennedy and Jay Abraham (not a knock on these successful guys, they do well too)
    • no other forms of marketing work
    • ad nauseum ad infinitum
    You forgot - "The world has changed and old marketing/psychology and sales knowledge doesn't apply in this new age"

    There are so many 'Social Marketing' gurus popping out of the woodwork now claiming that in the 'New' era of marketing you need a new expert and not a decaying old-school thinker"

    It's all part of the well-used model of trying to make yourself look good by saying others look bad.

    But when it comes down to brass tacks, money talks and bull**** walks - if these people talk a great game but can't improve your revenue, they start the road back down the ladder they said they belong at the top of.

    Unfortunately, there are many companies who are clueless about even basic business principles and will happily waste a lot of money on activities that sound forward-thinking but lose money, and the consultant makes their excuses and moves on to the next mug.

    There are a lot of newbies Internet Marketers getting advised to set them selves up as marketing consultants to offline businesses and they've never made money for anyones business in their life, but get filled with lines like "You know more than you think, you're more knowledgeable than 99% of business owners".

    Maybe that's why so many businesses fail - the owner either is clueless, or outsources his responsibility to someone who is.

    Most effective marketing/sales strategies NOW - are the same ones as 20 years ago (although maybe renamed and stuck inside some reworded jargon to sound Web2.0 or 3.0 or 4.2.................)

    As far as this forum is concerned, and most of its members - you can call things what you want, personal, business - it's all business and it's all personal.

    Pick your label however you need to as long as you take your life seriously and use due diligence when deciding how to spend your time and resources on ways you're expecting to create success on your terms.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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