Stompernet Got Me...This Time NOT Awesome! Special Bonus RANT included.

[giveusallfreedom]

My Stompernet postings are starting to become a legacy here...

My first one was in reply to this thread, saying that I wasn't going to STSE 2

My Take on the Stomping Rampage

This is my thread saying I did get STSE and talking about how awesome the sales process was.

Stompernet Got Me and It Was Awesome!

So, now here's my RANT on crappy bonuses

[rant]

I got the email from Stompernet today telling me how to get all the bonuses they promised me. Almost every single one of them is an opt in page. OPT IN PAGES ARE NOT BONUSES! They are cross promotions.

Bonuses are things I don't have to do extra effort for. At least two of the programs are continuity programs. In other words I get the free month now but I'm automatically opted in to pay $XXX every month. Now I'm not against this kind of offer as a business practice, but THIS IS NOT A BONUS.

I'm not saying that whatever you get isn't a great deal. I'm going to look at most of them, but I'm opting to all of them with my junk email. Why? Most of these marketers are names I know and probably offer good information. If Stompernet had recommended I go check them out then I probably would have considered using an email that I actually read. But it was presented as a Bonus and now I feel duped. Do I want to get emails from someone that duped me? Heck no!

Plus I'm going to look at Stomper's Net Effects that much more skeptical and be that more prone to cancel.

OK I'm going to go ahead and throw out the "guru" defense here. "These guys are obviously making a ton of money so they must know what their doing." Yeah that's probably true, but I don't really care. It's a crappy way to do business.

[/rant]

Now that this is out of my system let me just add this.

Whoopidity Do Da Look At Me I'm TrafficFusion!!

That is my other post on the Traffic Fusion launch. Everything that I just said was stupid as a bonus, I think works awesome as an integration marketing tactic. How they are presented literally makes ALL the difference in the world.

Here's my alternative to what the "guru's" did, because I think if you're going to rant about something you should at least include some educational with it.

Give a bonus that requires no extra opt in!

Make bonus a taste of what you offer. It can be the first three chapters of your full course, 10 free videos from your membership site, or whatever.

Make them so good I want the rest of the course.

Talk about things that you go into in more detail in the course.

Make me a special offer to get the full course.

That's a bonus process that still gets you sales and is actually a bonus. If you want to do it the other way then DON'T PROMOTE IT AS A BONUS.

OK LATER

[VinceNouvel]

Hey Of Course U are a legend,
I remember you from ur My Take on Stomper Rampage thread

Btw My Bonus Doesn't require any OptIn :P
So Do you think I am allowed to promote them as a BONUS? lol
would love to hear ur opinion..

Cheers

[giveusallfreedom]

Originally Posted by VinceNouvel

My Bonus Doesn't require any OptIn :P
So Do you think I am allowed to promote them as a BONUS? lol
would love to hear ur opinion..

Cheers

Vince,

You're talking about you're Traffic Fusion bonus?

This actually made me think of a clarification point. I'm talking purely about the people selling the original product here. If someone sends out a message to their list saying "hey buy this product through my link and I'll give XYZ." That has nothing to do with the people that are offering the original product.

I don't know why there would be an opt in that case(they're already on you list), but I could see using the continuity purchase thing here. In that case I stick by my OP, but it in no way reflects on the people selling the product.

[VinceNouvel]

Sorry for being out of topic, I get the bonus email too today. Have not downloaded any of the bonus cause they require optin.. I might have to create another email account to collect some junk mail. 100% agreed with you... They are not suppose to send us to another optin page..

[Ephrils]

I fully agree with this simple point:

Bonus = NO Opt-in

Simple. Elegant. Easy.

[Sarah Harvey]

Yes, I agree on this point. It aggravates me to no end when someone offers a bonus and I have to sign up for that one too, and then end up paying after the first month. My point- Hell no. I will refuse. I will sign up, take what bonus I was promised and then cancel. To me that isn't a bonus and I hate people doing that so they get what they deserve.

[joecool1972]

Originally Posted by Ephrils

I fully agree with this simple point:

Bonus = NO Opt-in

Simple. Elegant. Easy.

Yep, I am with you. Although the whole reason these other marketers offer it is because they want to do business with you also, otherwise, as much as they are "buddies" with the guys at stompernet, if there is no bottom line money in it for them I don't think they would be doing it, hence they need to get you to sign up for something so they have your details to keep bugging you.

Side Note:
I have a real problem with the fact that I haven't been sent my items yet from stompernet (and I sent them an email to tell them so). I was all prepared to be a regular subscriber to their mag’ but I think it is unfair to receive the mag' say two days before my month free is over, it isn't enough time to evaluate it and hence now I think unless it is awesome mind blowing material, then have probably lost a costumer because I don't like being taken for a ride which is what I think is happening by them taking so long to send out the stuff so that most people will automatically be billed for the next month, before they realise what is happening.

[giveusallfreedom]

Originally Posted by joecool1972

Yep, I am with you. Although the whole reason these other marketers offer it is because they want to do business with you also, otherwise, as much as they are "buddies" with the guys at stompernet, if there is no bottom line money in it for them I don't think they would be doing it, hence they need to get you to sign up for something so they have your details to keep bugging you.

Yeah I totally understand that. I like to consider my self a realist and a capitalist. I realize that investments of my time as well as everyone else are determined by what's in it for me. All I'm saying is that there is a better way to do this.

It's kind of like the cigarette companies purposefully putting as much nicotine as they can in every cigarette. Does it get them more sales? I'm assuming it does or they wouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean that it's the best way to do business. (And before anyone flips out, I'm not saying that the Stompernet guys are Big Tobacco.)

[Anna Johnson]

Can you clarify something? Do you need to opt in to get the bonus i.e. some of the bonuses are membership programs - isn't it logical that you would have to provide your name, email, etc to get the bonus? Just want to know what you mean by having to opt in to get the bonus...

[Sirius Lin]

I, too, was turned off by the "hey, it's a free first month, but watch out for next month's bill!" That's not a 'bonus' - it's a presale of sorts. I really hate having to opt-in to get access to these 'bonuses' as well. The Mind movies, similarly, required opt-ins for most of their bonuses. Mostly I'll stick around for a mailing or 2 from the marketer. If the marketer is worth listening to, I won't mind receiving more emails from him/her. But it's just a series of "buy my stuff!" emails, I'm opting out straight away.

~ Sirius

[Christopher R Everson]

If you want the bonus, opt in and get it. If not, don't. It's not really a big deal.

The reason many of these marketers offer the bonus, is because if you are interested in the bonus, you are obviously interested in the original product (to some degree at least).

By adding you to a seperate list, more often than not they'll know you are interested in said product, and will send you information directly about that. This way, they can still keep the other list moving with different offers, so everyone stays happy.

You may just be on a dumb marketers list, in which case learn from other people's mistakes so you don't do them.

[Sirius Lin]

Originally Posted by Anna Johnson

Can you clarify something? Do you need to opt in to get the bonus i.e. some of the bonuses are membership programs - isn't it logical that you would have to provide your name, email, etc to get the bonus? Just want to know what you mean by having to opt in to get the bonus...

Hi Anna,

If it was for a membership site, then it makes sense to have to sign up. But if it's a pdf or video download/access, it's just list building and does not serve us (the buyers) any purpose. Well, can't fault them for trying!

~ Sirius

[Bev Clement]

It seems a lot of people are doing it, even saw this as a bonus to a wso, and no it wasn't for a membership site. It is just a way to build your list.

[giveusallfreedom]

Originally Posted by Anna Johnson

Can you clarify something? Do you need to opt in to get the bonus i.e. some of the bonuses are membership programs - isn't it logical that you would have to provide your name, email, etc to get the bonus? Just want to know what you mean by having to opt in to get the bonus...

Sure Anna,

I haven't checked all the bonuses yet, because I got frustrated by the process about seven products into it, but from what I can see so far...

About two thirds of the bonuses are a video or PDF download, but before you get it you have to opt in to the mailing list.

Another 1/3 is a membership program like you said. However, in order to get the membership you have to give up credit card info and will be billed the next month for the membership.

Now if their bonus is a one month membership I can sort of understand giving an email to create a log in and whatever. But then I'm not giving you my credit card so you can charge me next month. But this only applies when part of the membership is free mentoring or access to a special forum or something. Otherwise you can just give me some free content from the membership and try to tease me into joining that way. Again no opt in necessary.

UPDATE

So I also discovered that about 1/3 of the bonuses I checked aren't even created yet. One is in "post product editting." To quote another email I received.

IMPORTANT: since Brad and Andy over at
StomperNet talked me into this, I don't have
all the detail worked out yet... so I still
don't have the calls scheduled.

[Anna Johnson]

Originally Posted by giveusallfreedom

Sure Anna,

I haven't checked all the bonuses yet, because I got frustrated by the process about seven products into it, but from what I can see so far...

About two thirds of the bonuses are a video or PDF download, but before you get it you have to opt in to the mailing list.

Another 1/3 is a membership program like you said. However, in order to get the membership you have to give up credit card info and will be billed the next month for the membership.

Now if their bonus is a one month membership I can sort of understand giving an email to create a log in and whatever. But then I'm not giving you my credit card so you can charge me next month. But this only applies when part of the membership is free mentoring or access to a special forum or something. Otherwise you can just give me some free content from the membership and try to tease me into joining that way. Again no opt in necessary.

UPDATE

So I also discovered that about 1/3 of the bonuses I checked aren't even created yet. One is in "post product editting." To quote another email I received.

Got it.

Okay, a couple of thoughts. Firstly, when it comes to having to opt in a dozen times - is it the inconvenience of doing so that troubles you or the fact that you're going to end up on all those lists? Offering all these bonuses is undoubtedly a list building exercise and potentially a customer building exercise (best case scenario) so if you can excuse that aspect, would you prefer it if SN simply forwarded your email and name to the relevant bonus givers? Or do you think that you should be allowed to get the bonus and then decide for yourself whether or not you want to sign up to the bonus giver's list or buy their product?

Secondly, about handing over your credit card details... I would love to know the percentage of people who ended up doing this. It sounds like a major turn-off... but I'd love to see the numbers.

Finally, did any of the bonus givers provide their bonus with no opt-in requirement. Again, it would be fascinating to know the numbers on this...

Thanks for posting - it's got me thinking.

Anna

[alfardo]

I have nothing but good things to say about the stompernet guys. I think all that they do is amazing. The way that they market themselves is a lesson for us all.

[Justin Jordan]

Originally Posted by Anna Johnson

Got it.

Or do you think that you should be allowed to get the bonus and then decide for yourself whether or not you want to sign up to the bonus giver's list or buy their product?

That one.

I signed up out of sheer curiosity, so the bonuses were pretty much irrelevant and, indeed, I didn't read what they were. But I had much the same reaction as the OP - the opportunity to sign up for more lists is not what I'd consider a bonus.

I'm not sure how I feel about all that. I'm somewhere between faintly amused and vaguely irritaed by the whole Stomper thing - their attempts at sales manipulation are so naked and incessant that it's a bit weird in overall effect. Mostly, it seems a little pathetic, and while people mostly have good things to say about the Stomper dudes, it's left me with a negative impression of them.

At this point, the information they're going to provide will more or less have to be the greatest thing I ever read to make me buy from them again. I guess all this crap must work, although I'm kind of interested in how - I would think most of the people they're trying to sell to would be savy enough to the stuff they're doing to find it off putting, but evidently not.

[joecool1972]

Originally Posted by alfardo

I have nothing but good things to say about the stompernet guys. I think all that they do is amazing. The way that they market themselves is a lesson for us all.

I agree that we should imitate those methods that bring results; however, I draw the line when I think the methods are unethical, such as: saying you have the first issue of a monthly subscription magazine or anything else for free to evaluate and then taking 2-4 weeks to actually send the item to you, therefore making it very likely that many people will automatically start paying for at least one month simply because they lost track of time and got caught out, which I think is what is being purposely relied on here.

They knew the product was going to have an overwhelming response so they should have made sure that they had the facilities in place to be able to still ship all products out within a few days. Or alternatively to say that the one month free does not start until they have physically shipped the item from their end. (Maybe this is what is going to happen but I haven’t been led to believe that this is the case).

Anything else I think is unethical and those sorts of practises are not ones that I personally will be imitating, even it that means I am leaving money on the table.

Long term I would rather be upfront and ethical with my customers. I think that this pays long term.

I have no idea why the guys at stompernet have done it this way, because if the product is so awesome then they didn’t need to be devious.

I would prefer less of the hype and the bonus after bonus and actually getting what I ordered in the first place. Less hoopla and more action please stompernet, I am bored now and losing interest.

[ExRat]

Hi,

I'm surprised none of you saw this coming!

These are just 'upper-class' giveaway events.

Besides, it's not the opt-ins that you should be bothered about, it's the fact that most of the bonuses are actually continuity programs themselves.

So what's the lesson?

You didn't see it coming.

So what should be learnt?

That there are probably many other hidden things that are going to surface. People DON'T give good stuff away for free.

Can anyone say 'lead generation' and maximum leverage?

[giveusallfreedom]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi,

I'm surprised none of you saw this coming!

These are just 'upper-class' giveaways.

Besides, it's not the opt-ins that you should be bothered about, it's the fact that most of them are actually continuity programs themselves.

So what's the lesson?

You didn't see it coming.

So what do you need to learn?

That there are probably many other hidden things that are going to surface. People DON'T give good stuff away for free.

Can anyone say 'lead generation'?

Roger,

I guess maybe I should have seen it coming. Actually I've seen this happen enough times before, but never with like 14 bonuses at once.

But it's not so much what they did, it's how they did it. If they tried to get me to opt in on the backend, then who cares. But they told me I would get all this stuff on the front end, and then maybe jump through hoops to get it after I committed. Do you get why I'm saying there's a difference?

As far as the 'upper-class' giveaway. I like that idea, and that's kind what I thought about it in the beginning. The difference is that in a giveaway I can buy the upsell to get all the ebooks without opting in. In my mind, when I bought Stompernet that's what I did, but they still made me go opt in. It defeats the whole purpose on my end.

[Ephrils]

I'm going to be pissed if they charge me for the second month and I either haven't received the actual package yet or Net Effect magazine and they're still doing the delayed product launch thing on the shipping end.

Anyone have that number handy so you can call and cancel?

[ExRat]

Hi,

The last giveaway I tried wanted me to sign up to each one to get anything - and there were over a hundred. And some of those made me jump through hoops as well.

And then the bombardment started in my inbox.

I understand your point, I'm just saying that this is precisely what I expected, and precisely why I don't bother.

If you check the other threads you mentioned you will see that I questioned the quality of the offerings. I brought up the fact that if they charge $800 a month, then they are going to protect the feelings of those people first and foremost because they pay.

I noticed people commenting saying, "if they can charge $800 PM for their info this MUST be good."

Sorry, but this is all so naive. It's not the same info.

Hopefully some people will learn a lesson from this, get off the bandwagon and apply their time to other, better things.

I don't know, but personally I would expect every trick in the book to be played on the people who thought that they were getting something for nothing. This is how it works.

Did you HAVE to give your phone number during the sign up process?

[joecool1972]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi,

Did you HAVE to give your phone number during the sign up process?

I had to give my phone number, my dogs name, my inside leg measurement, my mothers maiden name, where I went to school, who I will vote for and I had to tell them whether I was a blood donor or not. Talk about them wanting to much info!!!

Just kidding. I haven't even had time to look properly at their bonus email yet. It is sitting in my inbox and when I get a spare 1/2 hour tonight I will see. I think I will probably only sign up for a couple of things.

[Martin Luxton]

You didn't read the offers closely enough.

I saw at least one (I think it was Ed Dale's) before I stopped reading which clearly stated you got a free trial so you could be pretty sure that involved a credit card moment.

16,000+ people signed up so physical fulfilment will probably take a while and if you live outside the US then there could be a possibility you won't get your stuff before the month's trial is up.

The offer also said you could cancel any time using the number you would find in every issue of the magazine. I don't know if you also got the number with your welcome email.

All the clues are there, nothing is hidden. You just have to apply a bit of logic.

As a customer, this is why I like Paypal - the customer's friend and the continuity marketer's enemy.

Martin

[ExRat]

Hi Martin,

and if you live outside the US

That's something else you have to factor in too.

A lot of these people go for the 'Thud Factor' ((c) P.Myers).

I bought a WSO not long ago and even though I paid about $27 the seller wrote $97 value on the ticket on the package. Consequently, I had to pay over $50 in tax.

With a launch like this I got the impression a lot of the bonus providers were sending out a magazine or going for the thud factor and if each one of them hits you with a postage tax bill, it ends up being far from free.

But the information is always going to be of 'free' (or near to 'free') quality.

[ecoverartist]

I always look at it like Bonus = something extra - not something that costs you extra! (time, effort, money...)

[davemiz]

funny... bob serling had a bonus for frank's mass control stuff, got an email from frank on it.

clicked the link to get my bonuses.

had to 'opt in' to get them.

Guess what?

BIG F'N DEAL!

you want the bonuses? opt in.

If you don't, then dont.

simple as that.

If you want to opt out right after getting them, then you can do that.

I enjoyed watching the process because as a marketer there were some things I plan on using in my own marketing.

You guys are supposed to be marketers, yet you bitch and complain when you're being marketed to.

makes no sense.

[Justin Jordan]

Originally Posted by davemiz

funny... bob serling had a bonus for frank's mass control stuff, got an email from frank on it.

clicked the link to get my bonuses.

had to 'opt in' to get them.

Guess what?

BIG F'N DEAL!

you want the bonuses? opt in.

If you don't, then dont.

simple as that.

If you want to opt out right after getting them, then you can do that.

I enjoyed watching the process because as a marketer there were some things I plan on using in my own marketing.

You guys are supposed to be marketers, yet you bitch and complain when you're being marketed to.

makes no sense.

Yep, because if you bought a DVD with bonus features and all they turned out to be were ads for other movies, no one would be annoyed.

Being a marketer doesn't mean that you have to like or accept every technique thrown at you.

Or do you feel obligated to open all the spam you get? You can't complain about being marketed to.

[virtualpro]

Why not just get every bonus products inside a container and ship them to me at once? This is not a good sample for their usability knowledge implementation.

So now who will develop automated opt-in software for all these gurus in one click? Not just that, automatic opt-out before we get charged would be nice too.

And what is different if one who haven't got the net effect offer can sign up these bonus? IMO This is not a good sample about how they value and promise their customer.

No good thing learned from these bonuses for now, except the idea to just make money and run.
Lee

[violationz]

I'm amazed so many people are whining about the chance to get quality, free content in exchange for an e-mail address... did you really not see it coming or is it just another thing to bitch about? How many lists do you register to on a weekly or monthly basis for free content and we hear no complaints?

"Oh but it was supposed to be a bonus..." - it is a bonus, these offers were only sent to people that signed up for the Net Effect. So you have to opt in, big deal? "Oh I'm going to give away $1,000's in content in exchange for absolutely nothing!" - is that how you would run your business? I didn't think so, why expect others to?

As for the continuity programs, what stops you from contacting them before the 30 days are up and canceling? If the site isn't for you simply tell them that... logic says that their goal wasn't to trick you into paying for the months to come, but to give you access to the content and hope you CHOOSE to stay for many more months.

What gets me every time is the sense of entitlement...

[Lance K]

I don't mind having to opt in. The way I figure it, they have earned the right to communicate with me if I accept their bonus. I can always opt out if I don't find the bonus valuable, get annoyed with their approach, etc.


HOWEVER...


I don't consider a TRIAL for a CONTINUITY program a BONUS.


If it's truly a BONUS, offer the free month with NO STRINGS ATTACHED (other than you getting the email address).

[mmurtha]

Hi giveusallfreedom,

I'm with Roger and Martin on this one.

I expected this to happen too, but not just with SN. As soon as the hype about "raising the bar" came into play earlier this year, people should have taken note. That was a very big hint that something was going to change drastically with most higher priced launches.

"Raising the bar" in this business is, and always will be, about marketing shifts.

And I really hate to ask this one, but ... Did people buying these higher priced products and services really believe they were going to get more value? This isn't the case 99% of the time. In most instances, it's about the seller making more money in the end. It's been this way for centuries.

To me, it doesn't sound like anyone got any substantial or real bonuses. What you did get into is either up-sells and/or looped into a givaway.

If everything was outlined in the sales copy as Martin said it was, it shouldn't have taken anyone by surprise.

Why on earth would you want to sign up for something that has so many continuity programs attached to it? And high priced ones at that?

To me, the buyer should have been on the lookout for these things. That's plain common sense in my book.

As for the people at SN goes, they know about the difference in launching a product with real bonuses, and doing a givaway, but they are taking a big leap while the window is open to raise the bar.

Do I think it's right or fair? No, I don't.

Do I understand what they did and why? Sure I do, but I'm not buying into these types of launches to help them raise that bar either.

I look at it this way, if we continue to buy into stuff like this, most smart marketers will continue to raise that bar. Where and when will it end?


Mary

[Chris Lockwood]

Wow, some really clueless comments in here!

Why should someone (who is not the seller) give you their bonus item without you opting in?

If that's too much work, skip the offer.

Ditto for the complaints on the free trials. If you're not interested, skip it.

I just don't get the reason for the complaints when these are things added on to the main offer. I had no idea these bonuses would be offered when I ordered, so why in the world would I complain about them?

Do some of you not sell products or have lists?

[Justin Jordan]

Originally Posted by violationz

What gets me every time is the sense of entitlement...

Well, that's true. I do feel entitled to getting what they offered.

An opt in is a transaction - I give you the right to contact me in return for whatever. An option to business with someone else is not any reasonably person's idea of a bonus.

It's not that opting in is particularly onerous, it's that they essentially advertised one thing and gave people another. It's misleading at best.

I didn't (and don't) particularly care about the bonuses - I'd have given a try regardless. So for me in particular, all they've done is made it a whole lot harder to sell to me. Presumably, the extra sales they get are worth the ill will they get from people who don't especially appreciate that sort of thing.

[Scott Ames]

Well for something positive to say about the bonuses. I really lilked:

Jeff Johnson's videos. He is always good. I liked Jeff Mulligans stuff.

I really like the 30 day Jason Potash Traffic Kahuna. Sure you sign up, but no forced continuity and it looks like a really nice membership. I may stay.

The Howie Swartz videos were good, but I am not finished watching.

Brad Callen's Article Submiitter Gold looks great and I can't wait to try it out.

I would have liked Yanik Silver's bonus a lot if I didn't already have it.

Clayton Makepeace's report I have not read yet.

Eben Pagan is always good. I just haven't had the time to listen to it all yet.

Mike Filsaime's bonus... have not watched but he is always good. I really appreciate the way he put his video in a zip file so I actually have it and can watch whenever I have time, and/or I can burn it to DVD and watch in on my plasma TV while in bed.

I know they simply asked each person to provide something of value free and they would all share in the list. That's fair. T

There is a bit of a letdown however when you face an email with a daunting number of things to download, sign up for, etc. Someone needs to make a way for them all to share that data where the user signs up once, checks all the offers he/she wants, and it goes to all of them.

I feel like I have to watch the videos, get all the stuff, before it all disappears. Not my favorite thing to do. I had a marketer one time "give" me a Christmas bonus free, and online video series, about 10 hours of stuff. It was only viewable that day, Christmas day, the next day I was locked out along with everyone else that got the "free bonus" . I had only watched about 5 minutes of it and planned to sit down and enjoy it the next day. To me that is just not right and I wasn't really "given" anything. I'm not saying Stomper is doing that, but from past experience that is the feeling.

There is gold in these bonuses. I didnt' mind signing up for them, I can always unsubscribe, its not written in stone.

Missing is the THUD factor. I know better too. The same videos put on a DVD would seem more valuable. The same audio shipped to me on CD seems worth more. What is wrong with me? Human nature I guess. If I got a big box of "Stuff" in the mail I would feel I won the lottery... and as I said.. I know better. . I know its the same stuff, different format.

[Justin Mandel]

I don't get it.

Why does getting a bonus automatically mean that you don't have to opt-in?

I've never seen a definition of the word "bonus" which gave stipulations as to what one has to do or not has to do to get such a bonus.

If you feel so duped then why not just unsubscribe from their list?

[benzbaby]

I may be out of place as I'm new but the marketing that I've learned is that "trust" is becoming a big issue with buyers.

All they get from most marketers is a new pitch everyday so...I thought that raising the bar was actually "giving without getting"-that's how you build trust. Giving something worthwhile without expecting anything at that moment.

In the buyers mind, you have separated yourself from the greedy IM who just wants a sale and doesn't care much about giving you over and above what you thought you were getting in their hyped up sales letter.

I think people are tired of the hype and they want more for their money so they will go with those marketers that aren't going to pitch to them on a daily basis without providing them with something consistently that is good content without charge...

Okay...I'm ready for your insults...LOL We all have our own style and bottom line what works for some may not work for others...I would rather offer good stuff consistently without expecting something in return for the chance to build a relationship that is rewarding down the line...I want their trust first, the money comes after that...

[tomw]

Jeez, I can't believe the whining around here.

Do you guys really expect the top marketers to give you their best stuff completely gratis? You mean you really didn't see the fact that you'd have to sign up, maybe give some credit card info and join another continuity program or endure some kind of MARKETING activity from these top MARKETERS whom you hero worship?

Hahaha!

I mean, it's not like almost all of the guys who participated in the massive bonus give away event are not ALL part of the SAME little mastermind group is it? It's not like it was all probably cooked up while knocking back Yanik's $5000 wine choices at the Hard Rock Hotel during Frank Kern's Mass Control event or anything

Christ you guys can be naive sometimes.

Entrepreneurs...ha!

Marketers...haha!

Warriors...hahaha!

I guess you where at the back of the queue when these genes where handed out! So you made a few bucks pitching your crappy me too niche ebooks or WSOs and now you think you deserve parity and equal treatment from these guys...haha!

Always look for the angles. Always try to exploit them.

When did this business forum become a kindergarten?

Thomas

[giveusallfreedom]

Originally Posted by tomw

Jeez, I can't believe the whining around here.

Do you guys really expect the top marketers to give you their best stuff completely gratis? You mean you really didn't see the fact that you'd have to sign up, maybe give some credit card info and join another continuity program or endure some kind of MARKETING activity from these top MARKETERS whom you hero worship?

Hahaha!

I mean, it's not like almost all of the guys who participated in the massive bonus give away event are not ALL part of the SAME little bumchum mastermind group is it? It's not like it was all probably cooked up while knocking back Yanik's $5000 wine choices at the Hard Rock Hotel during Frank Kern's Mass Control event or anything

Christ you guys can be naive sometimes.

Entrepreneurs...ha!

Marketers...haha!

Warriors...hahaha!

I guess you where at the back of the queue when these genes where handed out! So you made a few bucks pitching your crappy me too niche ebooks or WSOs and now you think you deserve parity and equal treatment from these guys...haha!

Always look for the angles. Always try to exploit them.

When did this business forum become a kindergarten?

Thomas

OK Let's clarify something here.

Personally I was really mad when I had to opt in for all the bonuses and the paid continuity programs sort of put me over the top. Fine, but my personal preference was really only one part of this discussion. The merits of and the perception created by this business practice were another. And an alternative way of doing business was a third.

Now if you look at this thread, about half the people are turned off by the opt ins and the other half don't care. Personally I'm going to try and stay away from a business practice that makes half my customers mad. I personally try to over deliver on their expectations to turn the into long term customers. Tom, I particularly like your word exploit as it seems appropriate to the subject at hand. Before you call your potential customer base idiots and try to take exploit them at every turn, maybe you should listen to what they have to say.

Another lesson to pull from this thread is the logic behind calling customers either "clueless" or "naive". The WF is a rare place where sellers and buyers are the same people and we can perceive the process from both sides. From a marketers prospective, maybe we should have seen this coming. As a marketer, it's noted. But as a marketer the very idea of thinking you can tell your customers exactly how they should and shouldn't perceive you and your offers is both a little arrogant and to use your words "naive".

You'll also note that there are at least three completely different definitions of what a bonus is in this discussion. That goes back to Paul Myers post about the different definitions of hype not too long ago. That's one more thing you can learn from this thread.

As far as this Forum becoming a kindergarten, the way I remember kindergarten there were a bunch of little kids running around going "ha" "haha" "hahaha" teasing the other kids and not having anything intelligent to say. You want to see how the grown ups carry on a conversation, go check out Mike Ambrosio and Roger's discussion in this thread.

Whoopidity Do Da Look At Me I'm TrafficFusion!!

I quoted Tom because we was bottom in the queue and had the nastiest comments, but go ahead and apply where applicable elsewhere.


As a side note: Thanks to Scott Ames for reselling me on the value of the bonuses. As much as the experience put a bad taste in my mouth, there's no reason I shouldn't take advantage of what was offered.

[tomw]

giveusallfreedom,

My post is appropriate if a little over the top for comedy effect, my friend...and I do address you in friendship

The internet is a fabulous thing in so many ways. One of these ways is the way in which it creates the illusion that we are all friends and part of a caring, sharing, loving community of jolly, shiny, happy people holding hands and helping each other along this wonderful fantastical magical adventure called internet marketing.

Obviously this is not the case. Internet Marketing is about making money and the business of making money is a cut throat one. The means of creating a livelihood and providing for one's family is generally quite a serious business, and if there is any sniff of quick and easy money then it goes without saying that undesirable and even more determined and cut throat people will be attracted.

Internet marketing is dog eat dog, my friend. There are so few winners and so many losers because of this. Just like in the real world. If you're a loser in the real world what makes you think you will win online? Similarly, unless you are either prepared to compete with those prepared to win at all costs or at least protect yourself from their shenanigans then it's going to be pretty tough going for the "honest marketer" or the marketer with integrity.

Nobody got rich by being Mr. Nice Guy I'm afraid...

You may have been right to single me out because of my comment about exploiting the angles, but WF members are not my customers, never have been, nor never will be. I never have, nor never will, sell make money ebooks, infoproducts or any other such picks and shovels junk.

I don't sell anything...directly...and especially not here! I think a place like the WF is for giving value, not trying to make money from those unfortunate enough to not know any better or those that very quickly feel like friends

I am a strategic marketing and planning consultant. I work in the real world with real clients, with real businesses on real products and services.

You say;

"As a marketer, it's noted. But as a marketer the very idea of thinking you can tell your customers exactly how they should and shouldn't perceive you and your offers is both a little arrogant and to use your words "naive."

But, my friend, isn't this precisely what all real marketers do? Isn't this our goal. Even further, do we not strive to shape both the opinions AND THE ACTIONS of our victims *COUGH* I mean prospects? We tell them what to think, what to eat, to entrust their children's health and wellbeing to our questionable medical products, we tell them what to wear, what's hot and what's not. Which car or beer makes you a more of a man, which perfume or brand of underwear makes a woman even more feminine, or which sneakers or videogame system makes you the coolest kid on the block?

This is exactly what marketing is.

Hell, on a much smaller and insignificant scale...how else do you think people queue up for every launch of every pretty darn useless big ticket infoproduct? Duh! It's because of the pressure cooker cauldren of peer pressure, hype, faux scarcity, group or "herd" mentality and the exploitation of that psychology coupled with powerful persuasion tactics that build over time and climax at the point of sale amongst so many other things.

These are all basic marketing 101 tactics that lead naive dreamers to believe that they REALLY NEED this product or service in order to make a success of their online "business" and if they have the "same" tools as the guru they shall have the same success as the guru! This is even though if they stop to think just for a second they know deep down that if this product really did work and really did make tons of money the guru wouldn't share it. It's just common sense.

When it comes to the make money niche. The plan is simple.

Step 1. Find Hungry (read naive and/or desperate) Crowd
Step 2. Find Incomplete/Obsolete/Forgotten/Established Wisdom or Tactic or Thinking
Step 3. Repackage/repurpose it (sometimes just giving it a cool name will do
Step 4. Market it.
Step 5. Get others to market it with you
Step 6. Sell it.
Step 7. Reduce price
Step 8. Sell it again

Repeat ad infinitum (Latin for "as long as you can get away with it!") increasing the price by a compound factor of 100% until reaching market tolerance point.



Like I said. Marketing is a cut throat business and peddling wares on the internet is the most cut throat of them all because it is open and available to the everyone.

Simple.

Thomas

[ExRat]

Hi Tom,

What I don't understand is why you didn't make your second post first of all. It seems that giveusallfreedom may not have been down this road before and has learnt a lesson.

Your second post is great - it doesn't mollycoddle, but it doesn't insult either. When you just dive in and insult people, call them whingers, and all of the rest - you just become another of the me too crowd on the other side of the coin.

Your second post is spot on, educational, and helpful.

The first one is just contemptful and suggests that you never had a naive moment in your life and were born with all of the naus that you have now.

I see no achievement in elevating yourself to a better position in life, with a greater understanding, then spending your time scornfully sneering at all of those 'below' you as if you never had to 'climb the ladder' yourself - which you demonstrate perfectly with this comment -

I guess you where at the back of the queue when these genes where handed out!

You appear just as disillusioned as those that you scold.

Think about it. Show some class.

That applies to the rest of you too, who think you have earned yourself a permanent place in your own ivory tower. It makes me wonder why people in such elevated positions, with such fantastic luck to be given such amazing genetics that they fell out of the womb with marketing smarts have such a great big ****ing chip on their shoulder?

Perhaps part of their disillusionment involves how high they have actually climbed? Perhaps in truth they're just mere employees who have to bend over for the boss every day, but due to the nature of the internet, they can wander around in here under the cloak of their anonymity, pretending to be something they're not, while laughing at people who might be making a few mistakes and making lessons in the early stages of their entrepreneurial career, but at least have the balls to go it alone?

[tomw]

Roger

I couldn't agree with you more

I had a REALLY bad day yesterday, and when I saw yet another gang of people complaining about getting something for nothing (yet again!) it pushed me over the edge. Even though it was meant to be a little tongue in cheek, I realised that it went too far!


My post was over the top and I felt like a complete jackass. As such, I wrote the second post to make amends.

Thanks for continually keeping us all on the straight and narrow.

Thomas

[Daniel Scott]

Tom,

I don't agree with your comments at all. I can see why you think that way, and why you believe your points are valid. Indeed, some people probably do treat their customers as "saps" who must be befuddled.

I know this is not the case for everyone, thankfully.

You seem to believe that no one does anything to help others. That's crap. I have had heaps of people in this forum give me hours out of their day to help me out. Successful people who could be making a lot of money if they were doing other stuff.

In addition, I, and many other marketers, do not try to prey on our customers. I offer them a service. I expect to be compensated fairly for it, sure. But I offer them a guarantee. If they don't like my product they just have to email me.

My products speak for themselves. My testimonials speak for themselves. They work, or people get their money back. Seems pretty straight-forward and above board to me.

Regarding the OP - whilst I see the benefit of such a marketing practise (or at least the possible benefit), I don't think you can offer something as a "bonus" if people have to opt-in to someone's list. In my mind it seems a little deceitful.

-Dan

[tomw]

Daniel,

I think that way, because it is the way that it is.

'Help" is free.

"Service" costs money no mater how well it is disguised as "help."

In the real world...customer service is all about creating the ILLUSION of caring, so prospects and customers will warm to your business and your products and services in the hope that at the point of purchase decision they will choose your brand. Additionally, it helps to build customer loyalty in order to stimulate repeat purchase, create advocates for further repeat purchase AND recruitment of new customers through positive word of mouth about your brand. This is a very deliberate, planned for and perfected chain of events artificially created by the marketer resulting in the organic and viral recruitment of more prospects and customers.

The original customer believes that he is acting on his own initiative, exercising free will in recommending my products to you. But from day one, my marketing messages, my retail environment, the attitude of my well trained staff, the tone of my well placed articles in magazines, newspapers and TV talk shows, the posts that my PR company place in forums, reviews sites, my space pages, my customer service experience and everything else we do, conditions, persuades and trains him to do what we planned for him to do.

You, Daniel, "care for " and "help" your customers for precisely the same reason, and, either you won't admit it, or don't realise it.

You allege to give great customer service in order to keep your customers happy but the reality is that this is in order to receive repeat business, to get great testimonials, as you say yourself, with the specific intention of recruiting more victims or customers, ultimately achieving your goal of making more money

Simple, really...

Thomas

P.S. Not once did I call customers "saps" so why "quote" it?

[Daniel Scott]

Thomas,

I'm not trying to say I'm some kind of charity. Yes, the things I offer do cost money.

However, the way I am interpreting your posts is that you seem to believe that anyone who says they care are full of it. Almost like you either care and give away stuff for free, OR you try to manipulate your customers and drain them of every last dollar they have.

My products are, basically, luxuries. They aren't necessities to live. They're not something you should buy if you can't afford to pay the rent. However, they ARE quality, they ARE valuable and they not only save people time but give people insights they may not have had themselves.

How do I know that? Simple. My customers have told me.

I have worked in retail. I understand where you are coming from. However, anyone who actually believes any business cares about them is naiive. I know full well when I go to my local EB to buy games they don't really care about me (well a couple of them do, they're my friends). But EB the business itself, or the staff who I don't know personally, don't care about me. They give good customer service because it helps make sales.

I'm not stupid. I know what they're doing. I know when they offer me add-ons it's not for my convenience.

However, they're also honest. If I ask them if a game is any good they'll tell me flat out it's terrible. If I ask them if they think they extended warranty is a good idea they tell me that it's more for peace of mind than anything.

They're honest.

I'm honest when I sell stuff too.

Do I think it will help sales? In the long-term, maybe, if I got to be huge. Probably not though. I certainly don't have the kind of amazing repeat business a specialty retail store in the "real world" has.

But it's just the way I am. I am up-front to people. I tell the truth (or at least my perception of the truth, if you want to get philosophical). If I thought I would sell more stuff lying, guess what - I still wouldnt' do it. Because it would go against my personal ethics.

Your posts come across to me like you are saying that good marketers don't have ethics, or a moral compass, or their own sense of honor, and I have to disagree with you there. Some of us DO care for no other reason than the fact that we are like that.

If I have misjudged your post, I apologize - please set me straight. Regardless, this is a fascinating and powerful discussion, and I appreciate your discourse on the subject, and would very much like us to continue this discussion (even if it is slightly off-topic).

-Dan

[giveusallfreedom]

Tom and Daniel

I would argue to say that the disconnect is in the fact that you're both right. I'm not trying to appease both parties here. I just think that this is the way it is.

I agree with Tom that their are a lot of businesses out there that take care of the customer or choose their marketing tactics or anything else based purely on what is most profitable for them.

However, I would also say that their are a lot of businesses that are started and run by people that are passionate about their business and taking care of their customers. There are plenty of people who have become successful and rich enough to retire many times over, but they keep working and building a business because they love it. Many of them sell the first business that they started, and go on to start new businesses in a niche that they are passionate about serving customers that they care about.

I think Craigslist is a prime example. The creator Craigslist has had many opportunities to grossly monetize his business. However, the last time I heard he refuses to do so. He likes the model the way it is and plans to keep it that way.

The point I'd like to make is you get to choose which type of marketer, business owner, human being you want to be. I'm not disagreeing with Tom. There is a certain level of cut throat in this business. I'm also all for firing customers that are too much of a pain in the butt and are a drain on your resources. Some people would say this practice is better for you bottom line. It probably is, but I'd also say that it allows you to take better care of the loyal customers you have. Both are true, but it's all in how you perceive the situation.

Hope that gives you some more to feed on. I agree with Daniel. Off topic but very good discussion.

[drmani]

Originally Posted by tomw

Nobody got rich by being Mr. Nice Guy I'm afraid...

Thomas

Wrong.

My favorite, Yanik Silver, is one of MANY examples.

As for the rest, "Interesting!"

From the O.P.

At least two of the programs are continuity programs. In other words I get
the free month now but I'm automatically opted in to pay every month.
Now I'm not against this kind of offer as a business practice, but
THIS IS NOT A BONUS.

Unless it was explicitly positioned as being so (a trial offer of a
continuity program).

Was it?

All success
Dr.Mani

[tomw]

Yanik is not rich at all in comparison to the corporate level I was discussing.

We annually spend £100Million+ on behalf of automotive clients which affords us the opportunity to engage in the kind of marketing activities I discuss and a whole lot more.

Glad I could be of interest. Keep up the good work.

Thomas

[drmani]

Originally Posted by tomw

Yanik is not rich at all in comparison to the corporate level I was discussing.

We annually spend £100Million+ on behalf of automotive clients

Thomas

A friend of mine sells $50 million homes - on spec. He's 'Mr.Nice' personified.

I spent 26 weeks training under a man who's earned businesses over $7 BILLION - and he's a very nice guy too.

I'm currently in a mentoring program run by a billionaire (and while reports are he wasn't always 'Mr.Nice', he sure is now!)

World-views cannot be changed. What you believe is what you believe. But I choose to believe that being 'Mr.UN-Nice' is NOT a pre-requisite for either 'richness' (however you choose to define it) or 'success'.

Just my point of view, not argument - or forceful disagreement either

All success
Dr.Mani

[Daniel Scott]

Putting aside the whole argument of comparing apples and oranges (ie. an automotive dealer who has had decades to build their brand versus an information marketer who may run more-or-less a self-contained business and is relatively new)...

Mani is not only a brilliant marketer, he's probably the nicest guy you'll ever meet. He donates all his internet marketing profits to a charity to gives kids heart transplants, for God's sake. He's made lots of money for them, and he works part time.

You're welcome to your opinion. But I take exception to the fact that you cannot accept that we are just as entitled to our opinions as you are to yours, and that you are NOT any more "right" or "correct" than anyone else.

Our perceptions define our realities, and personally, I prefer to believe that not everyone is so completely cold, calculating and ruthless that they all just get into business to systematically rob people of their money.

Am I naiive? Perhaps. But I am happy. My beliefs work for me. That's what matters, isn't it?

-Dan