Are legal documents copywrite protected?

perryny · 09-23-2009, 12:02 AM

Is a standard legal document such as a Non-Compete or Non-Disclosure Agreement a copywrite protected document?

There can only be so many ways that a document like this can be worded, right?

CDarklock · 09-23-2009, 12:17 AM

Yes, it is copyright-protected... and there are effectively an infinite number of ways you can structure the documents. To the layman, they all look alike - but to an attorney (or a judge) they're very, very different.

AverageGuy · 09-23-2009, 02:45 AM

yes, they are. however, there are some free legal documents that you can use if you add a link back to the original site. it really depends.

david

CliveG · 09-23-2009, 10:32 AM

Beware of "standard" legal documents even for apparently straightforward agreements such as Non-Compete or Non-Disclosure agreements. If you need to enter into the agreement it is usually best to get a lawyer to take a look at it.

perryny · 09-23-2009, 12:31 PM

Thanks for your responses on this guys.

I plan on offering these contracts to my subscribers as a downloadable doc, with a requirement that they check the box prior to downloading that they understand that I'm not offering any legal advice whatsoever and that they need to have an attorney review any legal documents they intend to use.

That said, I figured there was only so many ways a standard document like a non-disclosure agreement could be worded (so as to not commit any copywrite infringement), yet remain legally binding.

It seems odd that one NDA might hold up under the law, but if modified and worded incorrectly it might become useless. That's why I assumed one NDA for everyone to use should be fine.

Dan C. Rinnert · 09-23-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perryny

I plan on offering these contracts to my subscribers as a downloadable doc, with a requirement that they check the box prior to downloading that they understand that I'm not offering any legal advice whatsoever and that they need to have an attorney review any legal documents they intend to use.

Where did you get these contracts? Did you pay an attorney to write them for you? If so, did you make sure you have distribution rights?

perryny · 09-23-2009, 12:50 PM

The NDA I have from a relationship with a client (his attorney wrote it). My client could care less if I reuse or distribute it, but I don't know how his attorney might feel about that.

It's so completely generic, I assumed it would be fine. Hence my posting of this thread.

I found other docs available for download at ilrg dot com. They say the docs are "Fully edeitable and resusable", but I don't see where they mention any distribution rights or terms.

perryny · 09-23-2009, 12:57 PM

Actually, scratch that last comment about me not finding ILRG's distribution terms. They're pretty clear on that point:

"THE LEGAL FORMS AVAILABLE ON THIS SITE MAY BE USED OR MODIFIED FOR USE IN CONJUNCTION WITH A DISCRETE PERSONAL OR COMMERCIAL TRANSACTION, BUT THEY MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED, REPUBLISHED, UPLOADED, POSTED, TRANSMITTED, DISTRIBUTED, OR OTHERWISE DISSEMINATED FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE WHATSOEVER, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER FOR PROFIT OR NOT FOR PROFIT."

Dan C. Rinnert · 09-23-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perryny

The NDA I have from a relationship with a client (his attorney wrote it). My client could care less if I reuse or distribute it, but I don't know how his attorney might feel about that.

The attorney is the one you would need to worry about, not the client. The attorney would be the copyright holder, unless the copyright on the document was transferred to the client.

angela99 · 09-23-2009, 05:20 PM

It's always safest to assume that EVERYTHING you see everywhere is copyrighted (which it is, on creation, by the creator) unless you have the terms spelled out transferring copyright to you. That's YOU, personally. :-)

Don Schenk · 09-23-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

The attorney is the one you would need to worry about, not the client. The attorney would be the copyright holder, unless the copyright on the document was transferred to the client.

Dan is correct about that. And NEVER piss off an attorney. How do I know? I'm married to one. They know their rights, and they know how to really come after you.

Sure keeps me on my toes. :-)

:-Don

perryny · 09-24-2009, 10:54 AM

OK. So, what would you do?

You have an NDA in your possession. It essentially says in three paragraphs that YOU can't share THEIR information with anyone else. It's generic. Nothing specific about any information is mentioned and this NDA can clearly apply to just about any two parties working together.

Do you...

a) Pay an attorney $500 to write a new one up for you
b) Get out your thesaurus, move some sentences around and modify it yourself
c) other suggestion?

Dan C. Rinnert · 09-24-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perryny

You have an NDA in your possession.

I have tons of books on my shelves, but that doesn't mean I can distribute their content.

Quote:

a) Pay an attorney $500 to write a new one up for you

Yes, but it probably won't cost anywhere near $500. Shop around.

Quote:

b) Get out your thesaurus, move some sentences around and modify it yourself

Do-it-yourself lawyering is never a good idea, especially if you're not a lawyer. And, what value would that document be to someone? You'd have a legal document that was modified by a non-legal professional, offered with a disclaimer that the user should have it reviewed by a lawyer before use. In other words, here's this document you can use for free but you probably shouldn't use it.

AverageGuy · 09-24-2009, 03:11 PM

I think, at least legalzoom provides this kind of stuff for much cheaper than $500.

david

jacktackett · 09-24-2009, 06:15 PM

As others have stated the basic answer - and the answer you should always assume is correct - is Yes, its copyrighted.

There is no single source of laws in the US. Every jurisdiction writes and passes laws. So what is legal and will stand up in New Orleans may be totally illegal and not stand up in Cary, NC. Heck some things are different even in the same state.

That's why the best answer is talk with your team mate - the lawyer. Or your spouse, in Don's case ;-) (remind me to lay off the lawyer jokes when you're here Don!)

Some sites will package templates etc - see legalzoom and nolo press - but you should at least run these buy your lawyer before using them.

Good luck,
--Jack

lisag · 09-24-2009, 07:25 PM

The U.S. Copyright Office has this to say:

Question: Are legal documents copyrightable?

Answer: Legal documents such as briefs, contracts, and even cease-and-desist letters written by private attorneys (but not by government lawyers) may be protected by copyright like any other material "fixed in a tangible medium of expression." However, greater fair use defenses may be available to those who copy legal documents. For example, it may be uniquely necessary to use the precise language of the document; the document may have little "creative" input; and its copying may not impact the market for legal services.

09-23-2009, 12:02 AM	#1
perryny Rob Perry - Computer Guy War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 373 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 187 Thanked 67 Times in 39 Posts	Are legal documents copywrite protected? Is a standard legal document such as a Non-Compete or Non-Disclosure Agreement a copywrite protected document? There can only be so many ways that a document like this can be worded, right?

09-23-2009, 12:17 AM	#2
CDarklock AT gmail DOT com War Room Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Kent, WA Posts: 6,947 Blog Entries: 4 Thanks: 1,740 Thanked 5,484 Times in 2,510 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? Yes, it is copyright-protected... and there are effectively an infinite number of ways you can structure the documents. To the layman, they all look alike - but to an attorney (or a judge) they're very, very different.
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09-23-2009, 02:45 AM	#3
AverageGuy Not Jr. Warrior Member War Room Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: LA, CA, USA. Posts: 2,185 Thanks: 12 Thanked 41 Times in 41 Posts	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? yes, they are. however, there are some free legal documents that you can use if you add a link back to the original site. it really depends. david
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09-23-2009, 10:32 AM	#4
CliveG Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom Posts: 656 Thanks: 14 Thanked 47 Times in 46 Posts	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? Beware of "standard" legal documents even for apparently straightforward agreements such as Non-Compete or Non-Disclosure agreements. If you need to enter into the agreement it is usually best to get a lawyer to take a look at it.

09-23-2009, 12:31 PM	#5
perryny Rob Perry - Computer Guy War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 373 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 187 Thanked 67 Times in 39 Posts	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? Thanks for your responses on this guys. I plan on offering these contracts to my subscribers as a downloadable doc, with a requirement that they check the box prior to downloading that they understand that I'm not offering any legal advice whatsoever and that they need to have an attorney review any legal documents they intend to use. That said, I figured there was only so many ways a standard document like a non-disclosure agreement could be worded (so as to not commit any copywrite infringement), yet remain legally binding. It seems odd that one NDA might hold up under the law, but if modified and worded incorrectly it might become useless. That's why I assumed one NDA for everyone to use should be fine.

09-23-2009, 12:50 PM	#7
perryny Rob Perry - Computer Guy War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 373 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 187 Thanked 67 Times in 39 Posts	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? The NDA I have from a relationship with a client (his attorney wrote it). My client could care less if I reuse or distribute it, but I don't know how his attorney might feel about that. It's so completely generic, I assumed it would be fine. Hence my posting of this thread. I found other docs available for download at ilrg dot com. They say the docs are "Fully edeitable and resusable", but I don't see where they mention any distribution rights or terms.

09-23-2009, 12:57 PM	#8
perryny Rob Perry - Computer Guy War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 373 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 187 Thanked 67 Times in 39 Posts	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? Actually, scratch that last comment about me not finding ILRG's distribution terms. They're pretty clear on that point: "THE LEGAL FORMS AVAILABLE ON THIS SITE MAY BE USED OR MODIFIED FOR USE IN CONJUNCTION WITH A DISCRETE PERSONAL OR COMMERCIAL TRANSACTION, BUT THEY MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED, REPUBLISHED, UPLOADED, POSTED, TRANSMITTED, DISTRIBUTED, OR OTHERWISE DISSEMINATED FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE WHATSOEVER, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER FOR PROFIT OR NOT FOR PROFIT."

09-23-2009, 05:20 PM	#10
angela99 Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia. Posts: 599 Thanks: 41 Thanked 187 Times in 124 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? It's always safest to assume that EVERYTHING you see everywhere is copyrighted (which it is, on creation, by the creator) unless you have the terms spelled out transferring copyright to you. That's YOU, personally. :-)
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09-24-2009, 10:54 AM	#12
perryny Rob Perry - Computer Guy War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 373 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 187 Thanked 67 Times in 39 Posts	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? OK. So, what would you do? You have an NDA in your possession. It essentially says in three paragraphs that YOU can't share THEIR information with anyone else. It's generic. Nothing specific about any information is mentioned and this NDA can clearly apply to just about any two parties working together. Do you... a) Pay an attorney $500 to write a new one up for you b) Get out your thesaurus, move some sentences around and modify it yourself c) other suggestion?

09-24-2009, 03:11 PM	#14
AverageGuy Not Jr. Warrior Member War Room Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: LA, CA, USA. Posts: 2,185 Thanks: 12 Thanked 41 Times in 41 Posts	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? I think, at least legalzoom provides this kind of stuff for much cheaper than $500. david
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09-24-2009, 06:15 PM	#15
jacktackett Socrates: I drank What? War Room Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Cary,NC , USA. Posts: 1,378 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 777 Thanked 450 Times in 253 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? As others have stated the basic answer - and the answer you should always assume is correct - is Yes, its copyrighted. There is no single source of laws in the US. Every jurisdiction writes and passes laws. So what is legal and will stand up in New Orleans may be totally illegal and not stand up in Cary, NC. Heck some things are different even in the same state. That's why the best answer is talk with your team mate - the lawyer. Or your spouse, in Don's case ;-) (remind me to lay off the lawyer jokes when you're here Don!) Some sites will package templates etc - see legalzoom and nolo press - but you should at least run these buy your lawyer before using them. Good luck, --Jack
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09-24-2009, 07:25 PM	#16
lisag Lisa Dozois War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Florida, USA. Posts: 612 Thanks: 85 Thanked 221 Times in 110 Posts Social Networking	Re: Are legal documents copywrite protected? The U.S. Copyright Office has this to say: Question: Are legal documents copyrightable? Answer: Legal documents such as briefs, contracts, and even cease-and-desist letters written by private attorneys (but not by government lawyers) may be protected by copyright like any other material "fixed in a tangible medium of expression." However, greater fair use defenses may be available to those who copy legal documents. For example, it may be uniquely necessary to use the precise language of the document; the document may have little "creative" input; and its copying may not impact the market for legal services.
	-- Lisa G