Paypal dispute - what should I have done ?

[Harvey.Segal]

A customer has raised a dispute
"I did not order anything from this merchant"

(Amazing really as he then managed to set up an affiliate
account with the information he did not receive
- but that's besides the point).

In the past I've been able to respond but this time
it was asking for tracking information.

I ended up (unwisely maybe) giving a tracking id of 99999
and saying it was a digital download.

Then I added my comments in the Notes to Paypal section

What should I have done ?

Harvey

[Sheryl Polomka]

It might depend on the amount of the dispute, but to be honest if I ever get a dispute, if it is just a small amount, I will just refund them and let it go.

If it is a lot and they have definitely received it, then I might fight the dispute. It would really depend on the amount of the dispute. I don't think I'd have given a fake tracking id though as that could come back to get you.

[Harvey.Segal]

Originally Posted by Sheryl Polomka

I don't think I'd have given a fake tracking id though as that could come back to get you.

It wasn't intended to be fake.

I tried to put N/A but that was not accepted.

Without putting 99999 I was unable to respond.


Harvey

[Sheryl Polomka]

If you're comments explain it, then you should be ok. Just make sure that the amount they are disputing is worth the hassle.

Often with digital products, Paypal will side with the seller, so I hope you do ok with it.

[Kirahster]

I had the same issue. They wanted a tracking code, but it was a digital delivery.

I just entered a random number and then wrote the reason (it being a digital delivery) in the notes section.

I also showed them email proof that the product was received.

I ended up winning the dispute.

[Sean Ski]

Have everyone opt-in before they see your download page... this way you can show paypal their ip address, time stamp, name, and whatever else... Then explain you have a digital product that is downloadable in a members only area and whatever other details you want to give... This usually does the trick.

[David.M]

There's nothing you can really do... 99% you'll lose. I get a couple a month and I've learned to accept it. Some people know that they can purchase digital products and get away with the money later on. I usually contact the person via email asking them why they filed it.. if they had any trouble.. if they didn't receive the product.. and occasionally its a simple customer service thing that once fixed, they cancel the dispute.. but most likely its just some greedy bastard.

Cheers!

[Andrew Milburn]

Hi Harvey,

Just refund not worth the hassle. Was it a clickbank item, if so paypal should not have asked for a tracking number.

And are you sure the email is from PayPal - Just a thought.

Andrew

[Alton Hargrave]

I had a customer a couple of weeks ago that asked for a refund because the purchase was a "mistake". I opened up my DLGuard and saw that she had downloaded or attempted to download the product and each bonus product several times each. This was just another person buying, downloading, and then wanting a refund.

I shot an image of the DLGuard info and sent her an email in which I pointed out that if she had "accidentally" clicked upon the buy button, then accidentally and methodically downloaded each and every product several times, that that was unlikely to have been an accident. I included the image of the DLGuard info.

I also added that if she just "didn't like" my product, to let me know and I would refund her money.

And, I never heard from her again. She has her products and I have my money.

Another customer paid for my electronic product through Ebay and Paypal. As you are aware, I have to send these products to my customers on a cd. So, she paid and I sent the cd. A couple of days later, she sends me an email and has changed her mind. (The cd had not yet arrived and she already knows she doesn't want the product.) Of course, I would be out the cd and any fees from Ebay and Paypal.

In such cases, I usually just send the refund and absorb the losses. But, I am getting frustrated with this type of behavior. I have changed my policy.

I explained to her that the cd had not had enough time to arrive and that after it arrived, please return it and I would refund her money.

I have not heard from her in several weeks so I must assume she is happy with her purchase.

In essence, many refunds can be avoided if you show people that you have proof they did indeed receive the products. A system such as DLGuard can provide that and actually save you money. And, in the case of mailed cds, asking the customer to return them for a refund can cut down on refunds.

[TristanPerry]

Ah, they've initiated an unauthorised transaction dispute.

In short, you've got very, very little chance of winning. Sorry to be blunt.

Since it's an intangible asset, and since this person is claiming they were hacked hence *they* didn't buy the item (but a 'hacker' did), PayPal will definitely side with them unless you have a tracking number showing you've sent out stock. But since it's an intangible asset, you won't have sent out physical stock nor will you have a tracking number.

All you can try doing is add in the notes section things like:

* The date of the purchase

* The buyer's IP address (with hostname) along with times/dates that they last visited your site (look at the access logs if needed)

* Mention that they created an affiliate account. Give an affiliate link if possible.

* Give their username

* Give the e-mail address/Apache access log detail showing that the product (via e-mail or via a link on the download page, etc) was sent out and downloaded/used

Basically just show that your product *was* used, it's the only hope you had.

I recently had a spammer sign-up to my host. They signed up, and tried to send out 1,000s of unsolicited e-mails (obviously, though, we have measures in place to prevent spammers from doing this, so only a fraction went through). They then tried to do a chargeback on me.

I given the above information (so IP addresses, proof that hosting was given, that a domain was ordered through us, etc) and the CC company (and PayPal) sided with me. Was still shocked at that - the spammers nearly always win. Plus they paid something like $30 (with the domain) for a higher-quality hosting package of ours, to try and look inconspicuous! (Scammers -$30, Tristan Perry +$30 lol )

But this is quite rare. Plus they didn't do an "unauthorised" dispute, meaning I didn't have to give a tracking number.

Sometimes you can fight a PayPal dispute, but the "unauthorised" ones are next-to-impossible to fight since the account holder says they were hacked.

When you go to file an unauthorised dispute, PayPal ask for some information from you and then do an (I believe) automatic check on your account to see which IP addresses have accessed your account.

If they see (say) 5 logins from a USA-based IP, and then one from a (say) non-USA-based IP, they'll take that as enough proof that a hack may have taken place (even though, of course, you can just use a proxy server to make it seem like you're in a different location).

The fact that this dispute has gone through and you've heard about it means that PayPal have checked the IP addresses and have judged that a 'hack' has taken place. So, unfortunately, I don't think you have much chance in this case.

But give it a try, show that your services/products were used, and just wish for the best. PayPal disputes are annoying things, and you can sometimes fight them.

[Robert Puddy]

Harvey you did the right thing...

And the above poster is totally wrong, it will be 99.99% sure to suceed
with paypal if its a digitally delivered product and you respond you will almost always win the dispute.

I also give them login details, IP address etc but its not compulsary to do that, the only time you might lose this is if they used their credit card and not their paypal account.

Other than that my policy is...

If they ask for a refund in the proper way IE by going to my support desk they are 99% sure of getting it... If they do an unauthorised transaction dispute with paypal thats tantamount to accusing me of theft and fraud, so they are 99% sure of never getting the refund.

Every one has to be disputed or you are admitting you broke into their paypal account and stole their money.

Please be certain of the fact that paypal will never refund an unauthorised transaction dispute for a digitally delivered product, unless its a CC chargeback in which case they are subject to the CC company decision (though they will fight it for you if you dispute it)

I have never lost a paypal dispute yet, if i give them the customer details etc in my database (bear in mind i run membership sites, so i have a record of times logged in etc and the address and email of the user)

Robert

[sbucciarel]

Agree ... the "I didn't authorize this purchase" disputes are impossible to win.

[Brad Gosse]

Dear customer.

It has come to our attention that someone has illegally used your paypal account with the ip xx.xx.xx.xx to steal secure content from our server

This IP belongs to: (ISP Details)

We are pursuing a fraud investigation and will be asking the ISP in question to provide usage records to the police so that we may consider criminal download fraud charges against the person who used your paypal account illegally.

If you have any information regarding this case please don't hesitate to contact me.

Respectfully
Tara Gillies
Fraud Investigator



I actually send letters to all the ISPs of people who charge back. Sometimes the person contacts me with an apology and pays me back after their ISP sends them a nasty letter. You see download fraud is against most ISP's TOS.

I know all the just give move on with business lines and I see the logic but when someone rips me off something primal takes over and I just want to make them see they are dirty theives.

I just had a warrior do this to me and he has posts here. Scammers are all around us but I have their IP's and proof of download.

[Harvey.Segal]

Thanks for the replies so far.

To clarify a few things

1. Although the customer said
"I did not order anything from this merchant"

the actual reason is given as "Non-receipt"

2. The amount is only $27 so I'm not going to expend a lot
of effort on trying to get it back though it would be nice
not to have a customer steal a product and also not to have
a 'failed to deliver product' recorded in my Paypal file
(though I wonder if this ever gets read ?)

3. The main reason for raising this was to query why in the
past I was given the chance to respond but this time it
required tracking information. Maybe it was because of the
'non-receipt' reason ?

4. Although it's 99% certain the customer is not telling the
truth I always give the benefit of the doubt so I sent him a
non-accusatory email stating the facts in detail. I didn't
make a response at Paypal at this point because I assumed I
would be given the restricted (160 character or so) form to
reply in.

5. Although I have 10 days to respond I saw something, which
I can't locate now, but believe said that if the customer
escalates this to a (?) I will lose the money. So at that
point I decided to respond and hit the problem of providing
a tracking id.

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Dear customer.

It has come to our attention that someone has illegally used your paypal account with the ip xx.xx.xx.xx to steal secure content from our server

This IP belongs to: (ISP Details)

We are pursuing a fraud investigation and will be asking the ISP in question to provide usage records to the police so that we may consider criminal download fraud charges against the person who used your paypal account illegally.

If you have any information regarding this case please don't hesitate to contact me.

Respectfully
Tara Gillies
Fraud Investigator

Neat.

I have another weapon if need be.

I have his ClickBank id, I have a ClickBank forum ...



Harvey

[Peter Adamson]

My experience is a little different as all my PayPal sales are subscriptions with a free one month trial so it is hard to make anyone believe after a whole month that the product was unfit, or that you didn't get it.

I mostly get unauthorised use of account or unfit for purpose disputes. I have found that for unauthorised use of account if I don't reply it falls in my favour. I found this out by accident. I was too busy to take care of it, PP said I had 7 days. After 4 days email from PP saying no evidence of unauthorised access. Happens every time.

Having said that, if they contact me directly and say sorry I goofed, forgot to cancel my sub, I just refund. Always.

Afterthought: If your PP button has a url in it for redirecting the customer after payment, and this url is a download page, PP can verify this. They can see that non-delivery is an impossibility.

[marciayudkin]

If your PP button has a url in it for redirecting the customer after payment, and this url is a download page, PP can verify this. They can see that non-delivery is an impossibility.

I don't understand this. I recently ordered a downloadable report from someone who used Paypal to collect payment, and after the transaction went through, I immediately clicked to check my Paypal balance instead of clicking the link for redirecting the customer after payment, and then I was unable to get the report. I had to email the merchant and then got the report that way.

However, based on my experience, it is clearly possible not to get the delivery of the item ordered.

Also, some people do not see that redirect link, especially those unfamiliar with the Paypal setup.

Marcia Yudkin

[TristanPerry]

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

And the above poster is totally wrong, it will be 99.99% sure to suceed
with paypal if its a digitally delivered product and you respond you will almost always win the dispute.

You win unauthorised disputes? As in, when (PayPal thinks that) someone's account has been hacked, you still win those disputes?

Or are you thinking of one of the other types of PayPal disputes? (Since the unauthorised disputes, which means the claimer says they've been hacked by a fraudster, are next to impossible to win)

As PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...p-info-outside) says, you get 100% protection if you are hacked.

I'd love to see your template e-mail (or similar) for how you win (in 99.99% of cases) unauthorised dispute cases

I've been using PayPal for ages, have dealt with and seen many such disputes, and have never seen PayPal not award in favour of the claimer when the claimer has been (allegedly) hacked.