Recommend a Paypal alternative that doesn't allow customers to cancel rebill on their own?

[Johnson Tay]

Hey Warriors,

I want to set up a rebill offer that basically bills my customers X amount each month. The problem is I'm only familiar with PayPal as a payment processor but I don't wish to use PayPal for my rebill program because my customers can easily log into their PayPal account to cancel the subscription. I'm looking for a payment processor that doesn't allow my customers to cancel their subscription on their own, instead, they'd have to contact me if they wanted to have their subscription cancelled. Any recommendation for such a payment processor?

[jasonl70]

it sounds like you need your own merchant account.

[SageSound]

One that works in Singapore? Most warriors here are from USA, Canada, and Australia, AFAIK.

Clickbank's subscription facility is a major PITA to cancel subs.

QUESTION: which is easier, from an emotional standpoint? Trying to deal with a vendor directly (to whom you really don't want to say directly that you think his product sucks), or by reporting the initial charge as an unauthorized charge to your credit card company in order to cancel the sub?

I think it's easier for people to lie to their credit card company than to lie to a vendor and request a refund or subscription cancellation, especially if they expect they're going to talk with someone who may end up trying to up-sell them instead of refunding/cancelling their purchase.

-David

[Chris Drinkwater]

IMO you have to make it easy for your customers to cancel if they want to. I know it's a pain but its the best policy in the long run. You never know if they will sign up again or for another product and who wants a customer who doesn't want to be there!

[Ryan700]

Originally Posted by Johnson Tay

Hey Warriors,

.....they'd have to contact me if they wanted to have their subscription cancelled. Any recommendation for such a payment processor?

If I was to buy a membership for the exact same product from two different vendors I would buy from the person who made it easier to cancel my membership than from the person who made me jump through hoops to cancel. Think about it. Easy cancellation can be a selling point for your product. Making it harder for people to cancel could potentially damage your reputation. Word of mouth travels faster than you think.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Johnson Tay

I'm looking for a payment processor that doesn't allow my customers to cancel their subscription on their own

I think, for many reasons (some of them mentioned above) you might be well advised in the long run to re-think this and change what you're looking for.

[mikeyman120]

Nope, no clue. I would make it easy for them to unsubscribe. It keeps people happy. If they have to contact you that's gonna create more work for you anyway.

Mike

[Sumit Menon]

Originally Posted by Johnson Tay

...they'd have to contact me if they wanted to have their subscription cancelled. Any recommendation for such a payment processor?

I'd probably never buy anything again from such a seller.

[john_kennedy]

Ditto. I will NEVER buy a subscription item from CB again. Although, now that I know the procedure to cancel a CB subscription, it is actually pretty easy. But, before I knew the process, it was a major PITA.

John

[vagabondette]

Agree with the others. the harder you make it to cancel the less likely i am to use you for anything. If you want to alienate your customers then I'd say follow your plan. If you want to offer good customer service and build trust to keep people around (rather than trapping them) then go with what's easiest for your client.

[Fernando Veloso]

C'mon guys and girls.

I bet Tay is very aware of all that said above, so go easy on him.

Maybe he has some strong reasons to ask for another payment processor option?

[derrickp]

So you want to make it hard for them to cancel.... My opinion only someone who would want to scam customers would want to make it hard to cancel.

Seriously did you actually read what you just wrote?

[Frank Ayres]

Originally Posted by Johnson Tay

Hey Warriors,

I want to set up a rebill offer that basically bills my customers X amount each month. The problem is I'm only familiar with PayPal as a payment processor but I don't wish to use PayPal for my rebill program because my customers can easily log into their PayPal account to cancel the subscription. I'm looking for a payment processor that doesn't allow my customers to cancel their subscription on their own, instead, they'd have to contact me if they wanted to have their subscription cancelled. Any recommendation for such a payment processor?

Why would you noit want them to be able to cancel their own subscription?

Sounds like you are trying to rip them off in some way?

[vagabondette]

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

C'mon guys and girls.

I bet Tay is very aware of all that said above, so go easy on him.

Maybe he has some strong reasons to ask for another payment processor option?

Hopefully he does have other reasons for wanting another processor and if so, he should probably name them because the reason he gave makes him sound very shady.

[George Wright]

I agree, he has strong reason. He gave it.

He wants to be able to stand in the way of me being able to cancel. That's not a good thing.

There is nothing more frustrating in the CC buying process than being told that you can cancel and then having to jump through hoops to do so.

There are class lawsuits started by frustrated Spa members over such things. One spa actually made it a condidion of cancellation that you hand delivered your cancellation notice in person, causing determined not to be held hostage former members to issue stop payment orders and cancel bank accounts and credit card accounts rather than drive to the corporate office.

Forced hoop jumping to cancel does not make customers happy, ever.

I have one word for that problem. Chargeback.

George Wright

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

C'mon guys and girls.

I bet Tay is very aware of all that said above, so go easy on him.

Maybe he has some strong reasons to ask for another payment processor option?

[sbucciarel]

That would really piss me off to be signed up for something that I didn't want anymore and have to contact you to cancel a subscription.

[JohnMcCabe]

One reason for making cancellations easy that has not been mentioned yet is the cost of providing customer service. With PayPal, all the buyer has to do is click a link. If they have to contact you to cancel, that means you have to spend time tracking down their details and manually processing the cancellation. That is, if you aren't spending that time defending chargebacks...

Unless you only plan to work with a very small number of people, the service work could become a major time sink. The lost productivity could cost more than the cancellations.

On a side note, the easier it is to do something, the easier it is to put it off. That's one reason longer guarantees can reduce refund requests - there's no urgency. I once had a subscription through PayPal that I continued paying for over a year after I stopped using the service because the name was familiar on the statement and I forgot what it was.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Add me to those who think you should reconsider this approach. I think what you will find is an increase in chargebacks, which is much worse than having a canceled PayPal rebill.

[JayInOrlando]

Let me guess, you want to offer free trails, then make it impossible to cancel them?

Jay

[YoYoPro]

Why?

So you can just argue with me when I legitimately want a refund on your 100% money back guarantee?

I understand your want for keeping customers and sales for that matter, but as soon as people realize how hard it would be to get a refund, the faster that gets out about you and your product(s) and your blacklisted by a large majority of consumers.

[DAS_Matt]

Don't make it hard to cancel on purpose. There are all sorts of ways to make your retention better without doing that.

[Sonja]

What is it that you are trying to accomplish by having your customers contact you first? If you want feedback from them as to why they are canceling, then send them an email and politely ask why. Or maybe there is some form you can integrate in the cancellation process (I'm not sure one even exists...just a thought).

I am in complete agreement of everyone who says this is a bad move. I can't see anything good coming from this. It would tick me off to no end if I had to jump through hoops to cancel. And after that you've lost me for good. NEVER would I buy from you again and I would make sure I tell everyone I knew of about your practices. Is that the kind of reputation you really want to build?

[kentaiwan98]

So how would you feel if you were forced to sign up for something that you couldn't cancel without jumping through hoops? Geez. You wouldn't like it one bit.

The fact is: if you make it easier to cancel, then people won't worry so much. It's perverse logic, but it's true. People say to themselves: "I can always cancel if I find it too... (whatever)" but I believe you will see cancelation rates rise if you try to prevent people canceling.

Also, since you won't be allowed to hide the information, you'll likely also lose sales from those who are 'scaredy cat' customers. They just won't try your product.

Try serving your customers not severing their wallets.

[Jason Fladlien]

Sheesh, people lighten up on the OP.

Most people are speaking from the consumer side. So don't listen to them.

From experience, I can tell you - you don't want to use the paypal subscription model for your membership site.

Here's why - the automatic cancellation thing DOES suck because a large majority of people will sign up, grab all the good bonuses, and cancel immediately.

Yes, even if you have the world's greatest content. Yes, even if you do everything else above the board. It doesn't matter what you do - too many people will immediately sign up and cancel right away.

It sucks, but that's the way it is. Again, I know because we've taken a $497 product that had an almost zero refund rates and hundreds of testimonials, and gave it as a bonus for people to "try out" the memership site... so many just signed up downloaded the product and canceled via paypal - without even looking at the other content.

Also, clickbank sucks to use for membership sites for the most part as well.

Although you're in singapore, you probably need a workaround to find a way to get your own merchant account. We use our merchant account tied to infusion and that works out good for us.

We don't make it hard to cancel, and neither should you - just don't make it to easy to get taken advantage of. For us, you can call me directly, email me or email my assistant, and all responses during working hours are handled that VERY day.

So sending us an email is not much of a hoop at all - it's VERY easy. However, it's *just* slight enough to cut back on a majority of people who are looking to get a free ride.

-Jason

[kentaiwan98]

Then wouldn't the solution be simple: don't put all your goodies on display.

Set your goodies at regular intervals depending on how long someone is a member.

one month membership: bonus 1
two month membership: bonus 2
and so on.

It seems to me that the problem is with the membership system implementation rather than the rebilling issue. Your site shouldn't be designed to attract such abuse,... rather change the model.

Nor does poor system design excuse abusing customers, because customers will do what customers do best: try to extract the most from something...

But making it difficult to cancel agreements is only going to lead to bad reviews, poor sales, and a lousy reputation, esp. if you want to do more business with the same group of customers later... so ...

Kenneth

[Kay King]

So sending us an email is not much of a hoop at all - it's VERY easy. However, it's *just* slight enough to cut back on a majority of people who are looking to get a free ride.

It IS a hoop - and a big one becuase of marketers who have used this trick (must email to cancel) to manage to squeeze yet one more monthly payment out before the cancellation is "handled".

If you require contact for cancellation you have to list that up front - and you will lose people like me who won't sign up.

You can call that a "consumer viewpoint" if you want but truth is many of the "trial memberships" and "first month buy and then cancel" marketers do NOT process cancellations quickly and do rebill once and blame the consumer. This practice is often found in beauty and health products sales and consumers have learned to watch for it. I've also seen it in IM.

It is common for these "contact us to cancel" sites to then tell the consumer it takes "XX days to process the cancellation" - that's just bull and yet it is used again and again.

If someone signs up for your membership they should have an easy way out if they want to take it. Doing otherwise may get a few bucks now and lose more in the future.

kay

[tomw]

Why are so many so quick to jump on this fellow *marketer's* case?

Maybe he wants to offer a pay by instalment option for a high priced product.

Where did he mention (whist cackling!) that he wanted to rip off subscribers of a membership site?

"The invalid assumption that correlation implies cause is probably among the two or three most serious and common errors of human reasoning."

Tom

[Re-cycle]

Ok, I think what the guy really meant is that he doesn't want a "refund" or "cancel" option to be sort of advertised everywhere like clickbank does in their thankyou emails.

[imacamper]

I personally dealt with a large vendor and paid a $15 monthly fee to access web site content. Initially, I was very happy. But then they started sending me items in the mail that I never ordered along with a bill. No easy return label. Just kept hounding me to pay the bill and no easy way to cancel or return.

I finally blocked all charges from them via my CC company and canceled everything. Pity too as I actually liked a lot of their stuff. But I didn't like it shoved down my throat and thus will never buy anything from them again.

My 2 cents,

Drew

[Bill Farnham]

Originally Posted by tomw

Why are so many so quick to jump on this fellow *marketer's* case?

His choice of wording?

Just a guess...

Perhaps he should rephrase his title/question to clarify things a bit more.

KJ

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Johnson Tay

Hey Warriors,

I want to set up a rebill offer that basically bills my customers X amount each month. The problem is I'm only familiar with PayPal as a payment processor but I don't wish to use PayPal for my rebill program because my customers can easily log into their PayPal account to cancel the subscription. I'm looking for a payment processor that doesn't allow my customers to cancel their subscription on their own, instead, they'd have to contact me if they wanted to have their subscription cancelled. Any recommendation for such a payment processor?

That is ILLEGAL! If they want to cancel, they CAN go to the bank, and cancel THERE, and then YOU get a reduced score and fees!

BTW if you get a merchant account, a low score will drive your discount rate up, possibly lead them to cancel, or even blackball you. FURTHER, it might hurt YOUR credit!

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Re-cycle

Ok, I think what the guy really meant is that he doesn't want a "refund" or "cancel" option to be sort of advertised everywhere like clickbank does in their thankyou emails.

I never noticed any such thing with paypal!

[tomw]

Fair enough, Bill.

But it may have been a lot more helpful for Warriors to ask the guy for clarification rather than to instantly condemn.

Tom.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by kentaiwan98

one month membership: bonus 1
two month membership: bonus 2

Extremely good advice. Problem with most subscriptions is theres no bonus for being a long term member. I'm trying to build that into every membership site I do from now on.

I don't know. I think the Paypal way works for you too. People will call with fire in their eyes when they want to make sure something is cancelled and then wait months and forget about it when its their responsibility. I can't tell you the amount of customers I've had that come back months later and want retroactive refunds when they knew it was their responsibility to cancel. Its not because they didn't like the service but various excuses like they were busy etc.

I wish I could get a refund when I am too busy to watch HBO.

[brucekaushik]

i have heard that using a merchant account is always better than using paypal .. and using a merchant account means the money is in your bank account and not with paypal (meaning in your paypal account which is equal to paypal having your money) .. and this might be a solution to your problem friend.

but i have never done this all practically i have read the information .. may be it will be useful to you!

[Steve Peters Benn]

Heya,

Is the difficulty in cancelling a core part of your strategy? Is it because you will be dealing with a high number of "dodgy" customers who will rip you off or are you simply looking to exploit normal customers?

I'm curious...

[cypherslock]

Yup. Bad idea. You don't ever want to take the easy away from the customer. People will cancel, that's just the way it is. I would not subscribe unless the cancellation was easy. It is my money and my time and if I want to cancel, then it is my right. Don't make me jump through hoops to do so. By making it easy, I'll buy more later most likely.