Who wants to share their refunder blacklist?

[Brad Gosse]

I am building a blacklist of serial refunders and I want to compare notes with other product sellers so we can collectively ban these people from buying our products.

PM Me if you want to share this information. We need to stop these theives.

[Tom Brite]

Hey Brad,

This thread will get deleted shortly but i hate them too....

When my next product comes out im going to be keeping a list of everyone who refunds without emailing or contacting me first asking for a refund, they wont be able to buy any of my products again!

Im more than happy to share any with you and likewise would want a list of your's before i release too.

Tom Brite

[Kay King]

How many refunds identifies a person as a "serial" refunder for your list?

kay

[Nigel Greaves]

Brad,

I don't want to rain on your parade but any Brits, and I'm fairly certain Warriors in any other E.U. countries, will be breaking the Data Protection Act (The U.K.'s title, other E.U. countries will have a different name for it) if they share refunders information with you.

It may also break the terms of their own website privacy policy if they have stated in an opt-in form that anyone signing up would not have their details shared.

I agree entirely with your sentiments but there is a whole lot more to consider than just who to avoid.

Nigel

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Thanks for the offer, Brad, but in the end I don't see how such a list would be useful in any substantial way. I'm not going to block anyone from buying my products, I'm not going to refuse anyone a refund, and the integrity of the data in such a compiled list would be suspect.

[Brad Gosse]

Originally Posted by Nigel Greaves

Brad,

I don't want to rain on your parade but any Brits, and I'm fairly certain Warriors in any other E.U. countries, will be breaking the Data Protection Act (The U.K.'s title, other E.U. countries will have a different name for it) if they share refunders information with you.

It may also break the terms of their own website privacy policy if they have stated in an opt-in form that anyone signing up would not have their details shared.

I agree entirely with your sentiments but there is a whole lot more to consider than just who to avoid.

Nigel

My refund request form has it's own privacy policy allowing me to share the data

[Paul Myers]

Brad,

That bit of quibbling about the refund request form changing the terms of the sale is not going to fly well in Europe, Canada, New Zealand or OZ at the very least. And the whole idea could even get you in trouble in the US.

I strongly suggest you speak with an attorney that's well-versed in commercial law before doing anything with this notion. You have no idea the minefield you're stepping into.

To illustrate a small part of the problem, go to any bank with which you do not currently do business, and ask them if their policies for merchant accounts allows for the sharing of a customer's identifying information due to refund requests.

Oh... It might also be a good idea to make sure that nothing you've posted anywhere in this forum points to a page with, or linking to, an order form for any of your products.

Yes, the subject could be that dangerous.


Paul

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

My refund request form has it's own privacy policy allowing me to share the data

I think that could pose a serious legal problem for you. You may want to ask your attorney to re-review your policy.

[Paul Myers]

I just noticed that you're in Canada. You may want to peruse some of these links, and contact Ms Stoddart's office before proceeding.

Canada Office of the Privacy Commissioner - Google Search


Paul

[Gail Sober]

It would be so easy for Clickbank and other payment processors to maintain and use their own refunder records to scrub all orders or to allow individual vendors to choose their level of scrubbing.

x refunds in y months = NO DEAL

They are probably looking at it from an affiliates point of view though. As an affiliate, if I make 10 sales and 5 refund, I've still made money on 5 sales whereas a vendor now has 5 products floating around that haven't been paid for.

[MichaelHiles]

Anyone can change their privacy policy at any time.

It's becoming a common thing in other industries.

Ohio 'Do Not Deliver' List Warns Pizza Drivers - Cincinnati breaking news, weather radar, traffic from 9News | Channel 9 WCPO.com

Lease Police, Inc Home

Heck, what do you think the point of a credit bureau is anyway?

[zapseo]

credit bureaus deal with a mass of law that no sane person would want to deal with.

This topic -- of sharing refunders information -- has been brought up on the WF from time to time -- with basically the same conclusion: you would be stepping into a legal minefield.

Note that some products allow you to block buyers. I believe DLGuard has this feature.

[Paul Myers]

Michael,

Anyone can change their privacy policy at any time.

Yes, but not retroactively for a transaction that's been completed.

The "Do not deliver" list that you pointed to is for vacant houses. That's a safety issue, not a reference to individuals. As far as credit bureaus, they're very tightly regulated, and depend on a lot more objective information than the claim that someone refunded on a purchase where a refund was offered.


Paul

[Steven Carl Kelly]

I also am not sure that you can require your buyers to agree to a new policy in order to receive a refund if you did not get their agreement to said policy at the time of sale. It would be modifying the terms of your contract.

[SageSound]

What about ChexSystems?

Here's an informative blog post with additional links on it:

ChexSystems

Seems there are actually several companies that perform the same basic service, although they're the largest. I'm not sure what sort of legal regulatory agency or laws their actions would fall under.

You could always have your TOS set up to inform buyers that if they refund, their info is pooled with some kind of "fraud prevention" service. Word it in such a way that it's intended to minimize the risk of chargebacks from credit card providers.

It's easy to change email addresses and get around something like this, so it might not be very effective in the long-run.

Why not adopt a policy that says refunds won't be issued for 30 days? If they file a complaint with PayPal, it'll just get closed since PP won't do anything about digital DL products.

-David

What about those that register for a site and then leaving the payment page "thinking" they can get access to the site ?? These people are just as bad as refunders as they are actualy trying to get access for free. Depending upon the type of membership script you are running you may not even notice these free members.

While it is not really funny, I laugh at these people who think I am so stupid to leave my site open without payment ..

James

[eaglechick]

Yip you guys I smell trouble.

I"ve actually read about this guy on a blog complaining that he was banned from buying
at Clickbank because he requested too many refunds.

Can you believe that? The very same clickbank that we all love and hate.

Do"nt ask me his name or where I saw it. It was many, many moons ago.

This is the truth and nothing but the truth - your honor.

I rest my case.

[TelegramSam]

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

I am building a blacklist of serial refunders and I want to compare notes with other product sellers so we can collectively ban these people from buying our products.

PM Me if you want to share this information. We need to stop these theives.

If you are getting too many refunds, then perhaps you need to ask yourself why!!!

Sharing this list with others or getting others to share with you could get you a jail sentence and a heavy fine if you are caught.

All you need to worry about is building a better product that is worth every penny.

[darrin_cooper]

It's actually illegal to share information the way you are addressing it (especially in the U.S.). Regardless of it "hidden away" in some privacy policy. The first thing a person will easily be able to sue you for is the fact that it wasn't clear & they did not opt into such a "sharing of information" request.

If you want to clearly be able to "Share" information, which can also be construed as "selling someones private information", why don't you simply place a clear & concise language on the front of your product sales page, as well as your order page stating that you will be Sharing Information with others.

Being clear up front about what you are doing with your information should weed out your problems you seem to be having.

But hiding some type of policy in your privacy policy would be deemed unacceptable.

[Brad Gosse]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

If you are getting too many refunds, then perhaps you need to ask yourself why!!!

Sharing this list with others or getting others to share with you could get you a jail sentence and a heavy fine if you are caught.

All you need to worry about is building a better product that is worth every penny.

Trust me dude some people refund just to refund.

I am not talking 1-2 refunds here I am talking about people who we found bought 8 different products and refunded them all within hours of purchasing. Why keep buying from me if my products suck? Because I refund too easily. It's time to get tough. Even retailers blacklist serial refunders

There is dissatisfaction and then there is outright theft, there is a CLEAR difference.

[TelegramSam]

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Trust me dude some people refund just to refund.

I am not talking 1-2 refunds here I am talking about people who we found bought 8 different products and refunded them all within hours of purchasing. Why keep buying from me if my products suck? Because I refund too easily. It's time to get tough. Even retailers blacklist serial refunders

There is dissatisfaction and then there is outright theft, there is a CLEAR difference.

Perhaps you can create your own blacklist and for these crims, just block their sales.

[MikeLantz]

Paul (or anyone),

I know this topic has been discussed before, but I am curious about something...

How is the way credit report data is shared different from this? There are certain companies that can make "inquiries" into your credit file without express permission, right?

Also, if there is permission received from the buyer during a purchase, does this type of thing than become legal?

Finally, what if the data is not shared at all, but you just check a purchaser's information against a list without direct access to the list? Think of it as a black box, where you pass in a purchasers data, and a "score" comes, which you can then use to determine if you want to do business with this person in the future.

Mike

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by MikeLantz

How is the way credit report data is shared different from this? There are certain companies that can make "inquiries" into your credit file without express permission, right?

The credit reporting system and the bureaus have been challenged in the courts many times throughout history, and the way they currently function was shaped out of that. Since there is no existing precedent for a "serial refunder database" it would be ripe for legal challenge.

Different entities have different allowances when it comes to checking your credit report and depending on what their function is, they may have only limited access to information within your credit files.

Originally Posted by MikeLantz

Also, if there is permission received from the buyer during a purchase, does this type of thing than become legal?

Certain rights can be waived with permission, others cannot. That makes this particular application one that would fall into the "iffy" category.

Originally Posted by MikeLantz

Finally, what if the data is not shared at all, but you just check a purchaser's information against a list without direct access to the list? Think of it as a black box, where you pass in a purchasers data, and a "score" comes, which you can then use to determine if you want to do business with this person in the future.

The score that came out of that box is somehow computed, and an irate consumer could challenge the methodology behind how it was developed. Additionally, since that score will be used to make a judgment about your worthiness to obtain a service, there would also be some ground for a legal challenge.

It's not that a system couldn't ever be developed, it is that anyone attempting to develop one without a legal team ready to defend it could find themselves without any assets, very, very quickly.

[Brad Gosse]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

Perhaps you can create your own blacklist and for these crims, just block their sales.

I do that now. The hard part is knowing who will do it next.

I appreciate everyones comments. There seems to be a ton of emotion wrapped into this issue, I had no idea.

[Steve Peters Benn]

Hey Mike,

As far as I am aware, creating a hash of the email address then comparing that would be fine as you are not storing personal data, simply a hash of it. Its a bit like Google collecting stats through analytics or blocking IPs.

A business, at least in the UK, can refuse to do business with someone - after all, you simply presenting an invitation to treat, both parties must accept for the transaction to go ahead - and as such I think it is ok to refuse someone a sale.

[Steven Fullman]

Emotion? I don't see that, Brad.

I see a willingness to comply with some kind of local or international law.

I'm with you, by the way, these bastards should be called out.

We have refund policies...which we carefully and honestly comply with.

YET -- Some people STILL insist on opening up PP disputes etc, I guess because they're TOO scared to ask for a refund.

How does THAT work?

Steve

[Stefan Vee]

New trend ...
I had a couple of customers who - after they bought one of my products - asked if they could get my other product (also listed on Clickbank) as a free bonus. Immediately after they got their bonus, they opened a Clickbank ticket and applied for a refund for their original purchase.
I also had my second charge-back this week (never had one in 4 years)
Refunds are on the rise, that's for sure. It must be the shape of the economy that's causing it.
I am in favor of blocking serial refunders, and I think it should be a piece of cake for Clickbank to set up a blacklist. I am just not sure if they are doing it.

Provide a no hassle money back guarantee...i always do, and Its a wonderful thing.

I always go to vendors I deal with DIRECTLY as well when I have any issues, and only go above them if and when they do not want to provide a refund as they said they would for things I did not even receive....

It's unfortunate, but it happens. But always approach the vendor 1ST, and attempt to civilly work things out with them. MOST vendors appreciate that. I think that is a great idea.

Some could care less about what's RIGHT and TRUE, and just want the quick cash, however, and that's unfortunate. But always go to the vendor 1st and try to work it out directly, which I do every time!

Plus, I have a privacy policy on my site, and I think MOST REPUTABLE online websites have them...a few do not. But I think I would never share my customers info w/ anyone else, I think its not right, but also my privacy policy dictates that.

So anyone that plasters your info online when they have a grudge against you and they were the vendor, I truly believe that is against the law, and what goes around comes around. The universal law, and all.

[whateverpedia]

Originally Posted by Stefan Vee

Refunds are on the rise, that's for sure. It must be the shape of the economy that's causing it.

That and the fact that people are getting a lot more savvy about how to do it. One person finds a "loophole" to get free products. They tell their friends, who tell their friends, and... well you get the picture.

A lot of people out there think that everything on the internet is, or should be free of charge. Look at the troubles the music industry is having as a prime example.

The only way around it I see is to not offer refunds at all. Not a good idea from a customer service perspective admittedly, but what else is there.

[sbucciarel]

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Trust me dude some people refund just to refund.

I am not talking 1-2 refunds here I am talking about people who we found bought 8 different products and refunded them all within hours of purchasing. Why keep buying from me if my products suck? Because I refund too easily. It's time to get tough. Even retailers blacklist serial refunders

There is dissatisfaction and then there is outright theft, there is a CLEAR difference.

I already have a tough policy. I use DLGuard and you can ban customers. I will give you a refund, but you won't ever get the chance to become a serial refunder of my products, because you won't be allowed to purchase from me again. Period. Last refund I had, the girl said I loved your ebook but it's over my head. Please give me a refund. I gave her one and within weeks she was attempting to buy something else from me ... and my guess is that it would also be "over her head".

I'm not interested in selling to anyone who thinks that you can buy a product, keep the product, but still get reimbursed for the product. Try that with a pair of jeans at a department store and see what you get.

[mywebwork]

Legalities aside for a moment, I don't see how such a list could be effective anyway. I assume that all you could do is collect names and e-mail addresses. Well you can't ban people by name because several people share the same name, so it's down to using e-mail addresses (or name + e-mail) to identify your serial refunders.

I personally have dozens of e-mail addresses, and every domain I own has a e-mail server that could instantly generate 1000's more. Not to mention Gmail, Hotmail and all. All that a serial-refunder has to do is simply switch to another one if his e-mail address gets on your list. If he's using his PayPal address he can switch that instantly too.

So how could you possibly keep up with them? Seems to me you're risking a legal nightmare for something that has very little chance of being effective.

Bill

[sbucciarel]

Originally Posted by mywebwork

Legalities aside for a moment, I don't see how such a list could be effective anyway. I assume that all you could do is collect names and e-mail addresses. Well you can't ban people by name because several people share the same name, so it's down to using e-mail addresses (or name + e-mail) to identify your serial refunders.

I personally have dozens of e-mail addresses, and every domain I own has a e-mail server that could instantly generate 1000's more. Not to mention Gmail, Hotmail and all. All that a serial-refunder has to do is simply switch to another one if his e-mail address gets on your list. If he's using his PayPal address he can switch that instantly too.

So how could you possibly keep up with them? Seems to me you're risking a legal nightmare for something that has very little chance of being effective.

Bill

In DLGuard, I ban them by Paypal address. You can also ban by ip. You might have hundreds of email addresses, by you're not going to have hundreds of Paypal accounts. I know you can change your paypal email but how many times is someone going to do that without raising any flags with Paypal?

[joshril]

I think this is just a cost of doing business... it sucks, but at least you're not selling physical merchandise. Maybe require that the person keep and try the product for X number of days before a refund will be given. This gives less incentive for the "serial refunders" upfront.

[sparrow]

Well I think someone has created a list for this, it looks like it is a start for generating a list for the problem serial refunders

found this surfing around

Chargeback File | Global Chargeback Registry

Ed

[hotlinkz]

Hey Brad,

I use DL Guard and it allows me to block IP addresses of problem customers. I'm sure a few other order processor options have the same feature.

Calvin

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

I am building a blacklist of serial refunders and I want to compare notes with other product sellers so we can collectively ban these people from buying our products.

PM Me if you want to share this information. We need to stop these theives.

[Andrew Maule]

Is there a service that has a central, universal list that stops certain IPs from purchasing? There really oughta be... could make someone a lot of cash while stopping serial refunders.