STOP doing this if you want any credibility online...

[ishansoni]

Hi,

It's not too often that I get scammed, I can generally see when something is an obvious scam but today... oh my god.

I just brought a $77 product, and was redirected to page where I had to optin (first name last name email phone) in order to receive the product. I was redirected to a page where the persons AWeber had some wierd error.

Now I click the back button, and try to view the source of the page, and due to my (smart) skills I find the URL of the download page. I paste this URL and the URL doesn't work.

I also received an email from that person, saying "Thank you for purchasing" or whatever, so I grabbed that email and replied, to get the whole issue sorted out and get my product.

The email did not even exist (You probably know that message gmail sends you when it can't find the recipient).

But here's the real killer... There are countless affiliates promoting this product, and this program has a gravity of 250+

Just a bad day at the office, I guess?

Whatever the case maybe guys, there is always something to learn. Never ever ask people to optin to your website before giving them the product, instead do this.

Give them 2 steps..

Step 1: Click here to download the product
Step 2: Optin below to receive updates for the product

Something along those lines. I mean give me a break, I just paid $77 for something and I am not going to get access to it unless I give permission to some guy who I don't even know to pitch me new affiliate launches everyday.

If you are asking your buyers to optin to your site before giving them the product, then please stop.

This is a very bad marketing practice. Yes, these are people who are proven "buyers" but they are humans, and so are we.

This same person recommended me 3 of his other products within that email.

If you are going to promote an affiliate product heavily, always buy the product first to see whether it's actually a good product. Don't just promote it to your list without even trying it etc.

At the end of the day, your credibility matters more then anything online.

It takes years to build credibility, but minutes to lose it.

Ishan

[actionplanbiz]

wow opt in after they buy? that kinda sucks. that might even be illegal

but damn its cool to see you positive about it.

Good post

[Lisa Gergets]

It takes years to build credibility, but minutes to lose it.

So true!

I always have the opt-in on the download page so that the customer has the option of opting-in, but they certainly don't have to.

[Alexa Smith]

It's basically springing a new "condition of sale" on someone after they've paid.

I don't mind if I have to opt in for some reason, as long as they tell me before I pay, or give me an option exactly as you suggest.

But to tell you after you pay and before you get the product you bought is dreadful, and credibility-destroying. What are these people on?!

[avenuegirl]

Well, it's actually a GOOD idea to have an additional opt-in on the download page itself.

I pay for things with a different account than my primary email account, so if someone is looking to email me by my payment email I'm afraid they won't get my attention right away.

[hiphil]

Did you pay with Paypal?

Having to opt in after paying, is definitely against Paypal's TOS.

If this is the case you can open a dispute via Paypal.

[Chris_Willow]

If you are asking your buyers to optin to your site before giving them the product, then please stop.

This is a very bad marketing practice.

Call me stupid, but I do it. After ordering, a client has to sign up to my members page where they can submit their video scripts and download bonuses. And the signup process is basically an optin form with name and email.
A client gets the details in his/her email and can log in any time to submit a video.

If it was a simple redirect to video submission page, people would forget to bookmark the url and couldn't get back to that page. Now they have the details in their inbox instead.

And I make sure to email clients about my new stuff before anyone else.

That's how I do it and I've never had a complaint

Chris

[Zeus66]

I started a firestorm of a debate here on this very topic (forced opt-ins after purchase without any mention of it on the sales page). I don't have time to go look up the thread URL, but it went many pages deep and was quite contentious. You've re-opened a messy can of worms. LOL

You make an excellent point. Always have a direct link to the download page if your PAYING customers were not alerted to this condition of the sale (opting in). In fact, you cannot honestly call it "opting in" when you make it a necessary requirement to get to the product you just took their money for. Especially when you don't tell them of this requirement prior to taking their money. Period, end of story, not even debatable (altho watch, a lot of shady marketers will now do just that with pretzel logic).

OK, off my soapbox for the 2nd time this year.

John

[clbeav]

I can't stand when people try to build their list for opt-in after purchasing something from them.

I can see opting in for something if they are only going to send me information about that product such as updates to it, etc.

I can see it if they offered something extra that I didn't know about before I bought it, and just required opting in, but I would be able to get the original product if I didn't opt in.

Whenever I see an IMer doing this, it's an immediate turn off, and I want to request a refund right then and there.

[clbeav]

Originally Posted by Chris_Willow

Call me stupid, but I do it. After ordering, a client has to sign up to my members page where they can submit their video scripts and download bonuses. And the signup process is basically an optin form with name and email.
A client gets the details in his/her email and can log in any time to submit a video.

If it was a simple redirect to video submission page, people would forget to bookmark the url and couldn't get back to that page. Now they have the details in their inbox instead.

And I make sure to email clients about my new stuff before anyone else.

That's how I do it and I've never had a complaint

Chris

I can see doing this if it's to a members area, where they can go to receive updates/new stuff. If you were bombarding my inbox with affiliate promotions, then I most certainly would be turned off and probably never buy from you again no matter how good the product was.

[Chris_Willow]

Of course and that would be understandable.

IMHO if you're not building a customer list you're missing out. My small list of clients is proven to generate way more sales than the big list of prospects. Plus the unsubscribe rate is less than 1%.

Think about the 80/20 rule. 80% of revenue comes from 20% of your repeat clients. Why not keep track of them?

But of course it's a different story with a downloadable ebook. I too would be pissed if on the salespage it said "Instant download even if it's 3 am" and I had to opt in.

[Robyn8243]

I am not sure what the connection is between the controversial subject of requesting an opt-in after a purchase, and the original complaint about paying $77 for a product that has a download page that does not exist, and comes from an email that is not working.

If you are going to take money and not deliver a product AND not provide a working email address, I think the issue of pissing people off by asking them to opt in is pretty much a moot point. Not providing the product pretty much destroys all credibility.

Am I missing something?

Personally, I really don't have an issue with people asking for an opt-in...it is easy enough to unsubscribe if I choose.

Because I accept that other people find it objectionable, when I am selling I usually provide an opt-in for bonuses on the download page. However, I have found that when I don't provide an opt-in somewhere along the line, I invariably get emails from people who have forgotten to bookmark the download page before downloading everything. When I have an opt-in, my first email will always include a reminder of the download page.

Robyn

[Nathan Segal]

It's not wrong to use an opt-in after purchase. You can't do it otherwise on ClickBank, at least not in my experience.

[Kevin Riley]

Bad marketer - no cookie for them.

Forcing an opt-in to get a paid for product is a definite no-no, and can lead to big problems with PayPal.

[JayXtreme]

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Bad marketer - no cookie for them.

Typical Clickbank... not setting cookies, again?..

lol

+1 vote for cookie stuffin'

Peace

Jay

[Ross Vegas]

Man, almost everything (especially non IM) I've ever bought online requires email registration at some point in the process. Am I missing something?

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris_Willow

IMHO if you're not building a customer list you're missing out.

Nobody's disputing that for a second, Chris!

Every time this subject of opt-ins comes up, it seems you can be relied on for saying something totally true, totally correct and totally valid ... that's actually totally irrelevant too and misses the point by quite some margin!

We're not talking about whether you should miss out on the chance to build a customer list, and nobody here is suggesting that you should.

We're talking about how one should BEHAVE with one's customers, and whether one should change the terms of the contract of sale after they've paid. Build your customer-list by all means, but if buying the product is conditional on opting in, then say so before people pay (or give them a choice about it)!

[Matt M]

Speaking of credibility, the real root of the problem is that the people that are viewed as the "gurus" with the biggest launches and the most talked about products are the very folks that not only encourage but teach borderline unethical practices.

I saw a video interview the other day of a well known big-time marketer talking about scarcity and some of the "tricks" he learned as a car salesman. How to lead people into believing that if they don't buy the car of this color today it will be gone because that color will not be re ordered.

Or teaching newbies how to set up the "Oh I'm sorry for the screw up..." followup message. How to "hijack" someone's hard earned work on a product. Get around rules for commercial use and on and on.

Squeezing people into opt-ins before downloading is just one of the "increase your profits and don't leave money on the table" tactics that newbies are being taught.

Since these new folks know nothing about marketing and very few know anything about business practices, they are ignorant and only have the "he said she said" threads that they read here.

When these new folks come here and hear us complain and try to straighten them out they judge us based on our "guru" big launch status and we for the most part, lose them.

But if these big shots are doing everything by the book and totally cool, then why do so many of them have records with Government trouble, fines, been sued, and leaving IM because they are being "hassled".

The real problem is that the folks making an honest living trying to create quality and build relationships through hard work and service are not as glamorous and "sexy" as the high profile IM "celebs".

It's always going to be an uphill battle trying convince new people here not to go down those paths when they are bombarded with all the glitz and glitter of "easy money" of the snake oil...uh gurus.

Matt

[Chris_Willow]

Point taken, thanks

[rahulchandra]

Ha Ha I just posted a similar experience...
What are the odds

[eaglechick]

Alexa - you tell them girl. A woman with an opinion and valid as well. You make us proud.

[Steve Crooks]

First of all, get your money back via paypal or the credit card company and secondly report the vendor to both their hosting company and also the payment processor. Forced optin is a definite no-no... Worse still, forced optin and then no product! Shameful.

[ishansoni]

I've got my money back from PayPal after contacting them.

The real turn off for me was the forced optin.

It's really important to have a list of "proven buyers" but forcing them to get your product, just so that you can pitch these people new launches is not the way to go.

It would be really cool if any shopping cart(s) had a capability of adding new "customers" to your list after their purchase has been made.

The bottom line is, you want to ordering process to be extremely easy and smooth. Ordering process where the customer exactly knows what he is going to get after he orders.

Forcing people to optin, then confirming their subscription from the email, then opening up the email and clicking on that confirm link, going back to your email and clicking the link to get your product is NOT a smooth ordering process (Atleast in my book!)

If you still do not agree with me then you may want to do this. Give people the product BEFORE they optin (after purchasing) and give them the bonus(es) after they've opted in.

A big lesson for me right there because in about a months time I am launching my own product...

[jefferybaxter]

Originally Posted by ishansoni

I've got my money back from PayPal after contacting them.

The real turn off for me was the forced optin.

It's really important to have a list of "proven buyers" but forcing them to get your product, just so that you can pitch these people new launches is not the way to go.

It would be really cool if any shopping cart(s) had a capability of adding new "customers" to your list after their purchase has been made.

The bottom line is, you want to ordering process to be extremely easy and smooth. Ordering process where the customer exactly knows what he is going to get after he orders.

Forcing people to optin, then confirming their subscription from the email, then opening up the email and clicking on that confirm link, going back to your email and clicking the link to get your product is NOT a smooth ordering process (Atleast in my book!)

If you still do not agree with me then you may want to do this. Give people the product BEFORE they optin (after purchasing) and give them the bonus(es) after they've opted in.

A big lesson for me right there because in about a months time I am launching my own product...

I bought a product today and had to opt-in just to get the downloads...It definitely is a big-turnoff. I'm glad you were able to get your money back though!

[ishansoni]

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt?

"I mean give me a break, I just paid $77 for something and I am not going to get access to it unless I give permission to some guy who I don't even know to pitch me new affiliate launches everyday."

Yep. Same ole same ole.... Don't ever buy anything that has a 7 at the end.

LOL. All "make money online" products today are $27, $47, $77 or $97.

The "magic of 7".

[ahlexis]

Well, it's actually a GOOD idea to have an additional opt-in on the download page itself.

I pay for things with a different account than my primary email account, so if someone is looking to email me by my payment email I'm afraid they won't get my attention right away.

So do I. And here's the thing: some people get it, and others don't. One person who gets it, who will tell you straight out "Here's your product (with video click HERE, without video click HERE)" immediately after you pay for the purchase, is Robert Plank. (Way to go, Robert!)

And just below that is another paragraph with an opt-in box on his download page that says "If you prefer to receive email updates about this product at an email address other than your Paypal address, sign up here for updates."

My point? The way he's doing it is VOLUNTARY, and the opt-in box is presented at the same time as the product. In other words, it's truly optional. After all, the truth is, the person who sold you something took a Paypal payment, did they not? Then they already have your email address because you bought from them. If they need to they can just download a file created by Paypal in report form that has your details in it.

The main reason a large group of people started doing it where they have you sign up in order to get the product is, not all autoresponder / shopping cart payment systems automatically transfer you to the buyers list (or remove you from the prospect list upon purchase) and so they have set up this method to still generate a list of nothing but buyers without having to cull the Paypal records. It's a work-around to have a separate list of just buyers. It's a quick-and-dirty way of getting that buyers list without having what should be considered proper tools to get the job done.

It stinks. But in some ways it's even logical, as much as it stinks. It especially stinks because there are other ways to do it without irritating the customer so much, especially when as it seems like happened with the OP, technology failed to deliver the paid-for product. It sounds like he would have been a very happy customer had the page he landed on after payment supplied a download link instead of an opt-in box.

[Marcel Hartmann]

Originally Posted by ishansoni

LOL. All "make money online" products today are $27, $47, $77 or $97.

The "magic of 7".

I'm waiting for Frank Kern to list his next product with a five at the end. He is such an advocate for breaking patterns, yet Mass Control's price tag: $1997. If it had been $1995, people would have been like, "wooooah. Dude! Awesome."

[Kevin Riley]

Originally Posted by ishansoni

LOL. All "make money online" products today are $27, $47, $77 or $97.

The "magic of 7".

Oh really? I don't use 7 on any of mine. It's a ridiculous fad started by someone, but it doesn't mean we all have to throw common marketing sense out the window and follow along like sheep.

[H_Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

I started a firestorm of a debate here on this very topic (forced opt-ins after purchase without any mention of it on the sales page). ..

John

I remember seeing that thread John and I was surprised, as I'm sure a lot of others were to as well, that a LOT of IM'ers follow this tactic.

As you, I'm in the same boat...if I've paid you for a product, SEND ME TO THE D/L PAGE NOW...you want my name/email address on your list, then how about doing it the normal way and get it from me BEFORE I whip out my credit card and expect to get to a 'download page' for the product I just purchased!

Matter of fact, if you wanna 'think outside the box', how about you find a way to 'capture' my name/email address AFTER I've already provided that information on the CHECKOUT PAGE, that way there, I won't feel so bad having to RE-ENTER the same information TWICE!

Better yet, how about you send me an email AFTER I've purchased that directs me to your 'opt-in' list, so that if I want to, I can enter in said information to even warrant wanting to get such 'updates' from you?

As I've said, too many marketers do this and while they'll shout from the highest mountain that they don't get any complaints...big deal...just because you didn't get a complaint doesn't mean you haven't pissed someone off to the point that they actually wanted to take the time out of THEIR schedule to want to even email you and let you know about it.

This is something that I'll refrain from implementing in my business and while I'm sure some will say I'll be leaving money on the table, IMHO, I'd rather have a customer walk away happy after buying something from me and not on my list, then be a paid customer, on my list but pissed off that they had to jump through an extra loophole before getting something they just paid for...as we all know how well 'negative publicity' works for ANY business.


In closing...these are my opinions on the subject matter...



Howie

[Johnny Slater]

Many people don't understand the difference between creating a login for a protected members area and an autoresponder login.

Click Bank has no problem with creating logins after purchase. The click Bank rule is that you can't have an optin BEFORE purchase. If you try to get someone to sign up for anything at all before purchase Click Bank will not approve your product. They have no problem at all with it after purchase however, provided your asking them to create an account for a protected members area and not just forcing an opt in to a mailing list.

With this subject having been discussed to death on this forum already I really wonder why people don't just get a decent membership system in the first place and bypass all this headache.

Any decent membership script, or even a decent basic download protection script, will have provisions built directly into it that will allow you to have your customers automatically added to a list when they create their account information. This allows you to give your customers access to what they have already paid for and get them on a list, without holding them hostage or pissing them off.

Why even put yourself through the headache and possibility of creating negative feelings about you when there are countless solutions out there ranging from $1000's to free that will do it all for you in one fully integrated solution?

Originally Posted by Nathan Segal

It's not wrong to use an opt-in after purchase. You can't do it otherwise on ClickBank, at least not in my experience.

[birddog200]

ishansoni,

I agree 100% on what you say about this, so I go to the link

in your signature to see how I can make that much money.

And BOOM... I have to opt in before I can even purchase.

Does this fall into a different guideline.

Like I say, I agree with your post and dont want to cause

any friction. Just want to know you view.

[Troy_Phillips]

I don't require an email to access the dl page . It is better to offer a bonus or extra support in the actual product .

I could do this wrong because most of the time I never send anyone to a sales page anyway . I send all traffic to a squeeze page and already have their information before they ever see anything I have to sell.

[VinnyBock]

The only time I add an opt-in after purchase is,
If I'm offering resell rights to a product, but it's not mentioned on the sales page, I'll ask for an opt-in to get the unannounced bonus resell rights.

To do it by force, is borderline unethical..

[mark z]

Originally Posted by birddog200

ishansoni,

I agree 100% on what you say about this, so I go to the link

in your signature to see how I can make that much money.

And BOOM... I have to opt in before I can even purchase.

Does this fall into a different guideline.

Like I say, I agree with your post and dont want to cause

any friction. Just want to know you view.

Good point.
Looking forward to see explanation.
Btw, design of mentioned minisite is great.
Congrats.

[Troy_Phillips]

Originally Posted by birddog200

ishansoni,

I agree 100% on what you say about this, so I go to the link

in your signature to see how I can make that much money.

And BOOM... I have to opt in before I can even purchase.

Does this fall into a different guideline.

Like I say, I agree with your post and dont want to cause

any friction. Just want to know you view.

There is a big difference in the fact that you know if you want to see what is being offered you have to opt in first ... not after you have paid

[ahlexis]

...if you wanna 'think outside the box', how about you find a way to 'capture' my name/email address AFTER I've already provided that information on the CHECKOUT PAGE...

Exactly!!!!!

[ahlexis]

With this subject having been discussed to death on this forum already I really wonder why people don't just get a decent membership system in the first place and bypass all this headache.

Any decent membership script, or even a decent basic download protection script, will have provisions built directly into it that will allow you to have your customers automatically added to a list when they create their account information. This allows you to give your customers access to what they have already paid for and get them on a list, without holding them hostage or pissing them off.

Key word here? AUTOMATICALLY!

We ARE in the age of automation, so why is it so many people use a "system" that operates based on manual acts of their customers?

[ishansoni]

Originally Posted by birddog200

ishansoni,

I agree 100% on what you say about this, so I go to the link

in your signature to see how I can make that much money.

And BOOM... I have to opt in before I can even purchase.

Does this fall into a different guideline.

Like I say, I agree with your post and dont want to cause

any friction. Just want to know you view.

I never said that opting in BEFORE someone makes a purchase is bad, all I am saying is that after completing a payment, opting in to a site just to receive more pitches is bad...

You can ask me to optin to your site before I complete paying you through paypal, but if you require me to confirm my subscription BEFORE you even give me access to the product (which I've already paid for), then it's bad practice. Read the thread again carefully, I never argue with obtaining someones information before they purchase (DUH! this is how to build a list LOL)

[ishansoni]

Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips

There is a big difference in the fact that you know if you want to see what is being offered you have to opt in first ... not after you have paid

Exactly dude, this is my point! It's different asking for someones information on a capture page or a squeeze page BEFORE they even decide to purchase, and a completely different story AFTER they purchase.

Because by FORCING them to optin to your site BEFORE recieving the product (Just so that you can sell more of your stuff) is flat out unethical.

[mikeyman120]

I have opt ins before my download pages for the simple reason I cannot think of a better way to build a BUYERS list. I learned this from a fellow warrior who is currently dominating his game. But because of this subject being brought up before and people not liking opting in after purchase I have made a link below the opt in that says something along the lines of - "or just click here to go to the members area now if you don't want to recieve updates and offers from us".

This makes everybody happy. Most opt in from what I see anyway.

Mike

[Black Hat Cat]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

It's basically springing a new "condition of sale" on someone after they've paid.

I don't mind if I have to opt in for some reason, as long as they tell me before I pay, or give me an option exactly as you suggest.

But to tell you after you pay and before you get the product you bought is dreadful, and credibility-destroying. What are these people on?!

Please....somebody....anybody....stop the madness that is this ridiculous, tiresome argument.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Please....somebody....anybody....stop the madness that is this ridiculous, tiresome argument.

Imagine that you go to a store, and you take a product through the checkout line, and once it's in the bag the cashier asks for your email address - and won't give you the bag until you provide it.

That's it. I don't have to tell you my opinion of this. Just imagine it happening to you, and look at your own opinion.

[brucekaushik]

that sucks .. i had many experiances like this when i first started online ..

i brought products after products only to find that the info in them was found free somewhere else ..

i still remember that i paid 1000 INR to a website called googlemint.com only to get a list of PTC websites ... and that was how my journey into internet marketing started 2 years ago.

but now i understand one thing .. no matter what your product is you can selling it to someone .. at least those who are starting new in that niche! (its not a good thing to do but it works)

[ishansoni]

Originally Posted by brucekaushik

that sucks .. i had many experiances like this when i first started online ..

i brought products after products only to find that the info in them was found free somewhere else ..

i still remember that i paid 1000 INR to a website called googlemint.com only to get a list of PTC websites ... and that was how my journey into internet marketing started 2 years ago.

but now i understand one thing .. no matter what your product is you can selling it to someone .. at least those who are starting new in that niche! (its not a good thing to do but it works)

Hey my friend

Its unfortunate that many people get scammed like that. I also started with PTC sites, and felt like a billionaire the day that I made my first $10 with PTC (seriously!).

I do not believe in selling junk to newbies because its just going to upset them and most of the time they're going to end up quitting even if they had the determination in the first place.

Ishan

[fghaegele]

my 002.

that's an awful scam that ruins it for the rest of us (apologies if someone had already said the same).

Take flippa, for example.

I'm selling a site for 75 bucks on flippa, and I'm not even sure I'll get that because of all the half assed sites with embellished financials, false promises, that sell every on there every day.

It seems as though with the creation of cms's, more useless sites are created everyday with no real intention to serve any meaningful purpose. Sites that don't add any real value to the internet, or any kind of helpful service to the user.
n

Hopefully you have some kind of recourse, unless you accidently signed off on something you weren't aware of.

[Aitor Astobieta]

I do ask for name and email before downloading product for two reasons:

1. I like to put my products in password-protected directories to protect from piracy. I send my customers username and password by email.
2. I want to build a customer list because these are the most profitable.

I try to tell my customers before they buy that they will be taken to a squeeze page because I want to be transparent with them.

That way I filter out the tirekickers from those who have no problem giving me their email addresses.

Maybe it is an aggressive marketing tactic, but you can do it ethically while trying to keep your clients happy.

Although in this life, you will always piss somebody off, that's for sure!

[Vaan]

I'm not sure about this but It's look like everyone is started online business through PTC first just like me before discover this Internet Marketing business,

Anyone Agree with me?

Vaan

Originally Posted by ishansoni

Hey my friend

Its unfortunate that many people get scammed like that. I also started with PTC sites, and felt like a billionaire the day that I made my first $10 with PTC (seriously!).

I do not believe in selling junk to newbies because its just going to upset them and most of the time they're going to end up quitting even if they had the determination in the first place.

Ishan

[Ricardo-Acosta]

Bummer, I hate scams.....I dont care what you spent its still a low blow. I would get upset over forking over $30, I guess its the feeling of being duped that gets to me, I dont think of the money, but having some one laughing at you from some where across the world. I go into hulk mode because there are honest IM'ers trying to establish credibility and make good money online, but ppl get skeptical about buying products because of previous issues, and dishonest marketers.

By the way can you share with us what product it was?

[brucekaushik]

Originally Posted by ishansoni

Hey my friend

Its unfortunate that many people get scammed like that. I also started with PTC sites, and felt like a billionaire the day that I made my first $10 with PTC (seriously!).

I do not believe in selling junk to newbies because its just going to upset them and most of the time they're going to end up quitting even if they had the determination in the first place.

Ishan

yes, you are right i too believe that we should not sell junk to people. But in my case i was even more determined to make money online just because i got scammed. and i too felt like a billionaire when i earned my first 10$ my mylot. its just a great experience.

[ishansoni]

Originally Posted by brucekaushik

yes, you are right i too believe that we should not sell junk to people. But in my case i was even more determined to make money online just because i got scammed. and i too felt like a billionaire when i earned my first 10$ my mylot. its just a great experience.

I still remember that moment lol