freelancers frustrate me to hell

[outrage]

i do not know if this is the real space for that, but i must tell it somewhere.

i´m very frustrated with getafreelancer and there so called freelancers.

maybe it is cool to outsource little work like dataentry, craiglist posting, backlinking and little .php costumation. but one thing i learned in the last three month:

this gaf could be terrible to find a real proggerteam for a bigger project. or i´m to stupid to choose the right people.

i looked 3 month a go the first time for proggers for a custombuild community with some ideas for special features. i bought the best network software out there and looked for specialist of modification. very fast the first bids came in and i choosed one of them. every day we had good communication. but the results let wait and wait. after two weeks the freelancer told me that his son is ill and after some days he told that the son is allright again. two days later the communication broke up and i never heard any word again from this guy. the good thing is that i never paid this guy money upfront, cause i told him that i must first some results.

after that i posted the same project again. and i found a new guy with much good reviews. i choosed him. he want to have the project ready in 21 days.

the first time was very good communication. he wanted to be only 24/7 (is this man a robot?). some little results were fast to see. but after nothing happened. after many emails and a little payment more i see some results more but not more then 1/6 from the whole project. he told me he need a another part payment for next work and i paid him 300euro again. after that he just tell me bull****. two weeks ago he wanted to be ready with next module. then a week later. and today he told me that his senior developer will chat with me. what senior developer??? never heard before of a senior developer?

he just tells me bull**** i think.
i wait some days more now and when nothing more results are visible and working i go to a german progger company (cause in germany i life). o.k. i will pay three times more for the work but i know with what guys i´m working.

the frustration is not on the first place the money it is the time i wait to see results on my project....fxxk

[rapidscc]

Sometimes you'll have to look hard to get good people.

If you think you'll be more comfortable outsourcing jobs in Germany where you'll pay more but get immediate response and accomplishments then good, do it

Sometimes finding the right people is not easy, but they exist..really.

All Success!

Omar Diaz

[sahail]

Try iFreelance, pay nothing more than half up front, and ask for lots of references.

getafreelancer is very hit and miss

[sbucciarel]

I've had good luck with scriptlance. You do need to choose the ones that have a lot of great feedback. Getafreelancer is not as good as some of the other sites. Elance is also a good source.

[taylordstuff]

I have had similar problems with GAF. I hired 3 different article writers from there and all of them did not deliver good content even after I received samples of their previous work.

In the future, if I ever need writing services again, I will look at the Warrior Forum or to Elance.

[Barry Walls]

Elance is likely the bezt place to get quality people. Why?

Because they have to PAY to bid on your project.

Cuts out all the losers who are out to catch a fool.

All the best

Barry

[ecoverartist]

I'd use Rent A Coder. I do writing work through there (username is iElectrify) and have always gotten good results from working with coders.

[rony_means_warrior]

U can use Odesk...

[rony_means_warrior]

I am New in the field of SEO...Can any one help me.....from where i need to start??

[actionplanbiz]

can it be the way you instruct them?

[zapseo]

A friend of mine (maybe, after he canceled his paypal acct and I didn't get the rest of a $1000 commission, LOL -- ah, the life of an affiliate. Isn't life grand?)

got strung along and strung along and strung along using offshore programmers.

He finally got frustrated, ponied up the money and has an American programmer. Apparently (last time I checked) -- both programmer and friend couldn't be happier.

I spent over 20 years in software development in Silicon Valley. I worked for Apple, both on their developer products (mostly) but also on OS 7.0 and 7.1. (Yes, it was a while back.) I also worked at Sun, briefly, on something called nis-plus (you can hear the network admins eyes rollilng.)

Software development, even at these levels, was often difficult to get right. (Though Apple's OS development process, at the time, was awe-inspiring. It may still be -- I'm just not hooked in to know.)

Most of the software I've seen in the IM field fails majorly. Writing good, solid, robust software is not a walk in the park. And about 80% of the work, which handled 20% of stuff (exceptions) -- isn't really all that much fun. It's fun to make something happen -- less fun to handle exception conditions such as low memory, no disk space, etc., issues.

In general, I think you will find higher quality software folks -- get people who have had some professional experience with major companies -- in the U.S. If for nothing else, just sheer numbers. While there are good and great programmers outside of the U.S., the cutting edge development processes and use of project management processes tend to make the experience of American programmers better than most.

Most self-trained programmers may be fast, and may get your functionality out -- but you'll run into problems with quality. Simply because they don't want to do the boring stuff that makes the difference between barely functional software and solid, robust software, meant to last years. (And will be easy to adapt to changes in operating system

JMO, from my observational post.

[L.James]

i recently hired a telemarketer that accepted my job and they never returned any phone calls or emails. Then i get a email today about payment and rating details. I was like wtf!

[sbucciarel]

Originally Posted by L.James

i recently hired a telemarketer that accepted my job and they never returned any phone calls or emails. Then i get a email today about payment and rating details. I was like wtf!

You can skip the payment but be sure to oblige them on the ratings.

[Daniel Brock]

That is pretty crappy to be strung along like that. I'm betting that was his plan from the get-go.

I for one will never outsource something like programming. There is just too many details that you need to communicate. If you outsource this to places like India, you are are just looking for trouble. I'm sure there are some reputable companies out there...but...freelancers...

[cypherslock]

oDesk is good. Or heck, post here!

[iplusgold]

Getting strung along like that has happened to me on numerous occasions on GAF and others. I eventually just sopped outsourcing and employed people in my home market. Sure it was more expensive but when I considered the lost revenue in being strung along for months it was the CHEAP option.

[outrage]

thank you all. today i will make final decision how it will go on...

odesk, elance, programmers from germany???

[jacksonlin]

Why don't you just hire fellow warriors?

There are a lot of them here on the forums and you can find them offering their services at the warrior services section.

They are reliable and if they are not, other warriors really will give their free and unbiased feedback.

[ewenmack]

Try this guy, one of the trusted Programmers for Warriors http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...s-welcome.html

His name is Damien Roche and is found on this website under Programmers For Hire.

I've had the best experience with Damien... ever with a tech guy.

He's in your time zone which makes it easier to communicate.

If he's too booked up, then there are others listed here under Programmers For Hire.

All the best,

Ewen Vile

[Amenda Jessera]

Ya you are correct, I too have similar experience with that site. There are people who say, "Yes can do it", then do the sample works and all, after sometimes, I have to send them about 5-10 emails to get reports - Even if it is dataentry, webdesign or whatever, there are these kind of guys are there..... seems just spammers...
Even the people with good reviews too play like that, that is really frausted too...
But, on the other hand, luckly, I have got some hard workers too.

[outrage]

the existing progger chatted with me and bet on his knees for really last chance. he wants to have the half project ready created until thursday (tomorrow). i gave him this last chance and he swear he will give me all my money back when i have not the results tomorrow.

will see what ill happen.

[Eric Lorence]

I've noticed a trend of "middle men" popping up as skilled freelancers, but in reality have no real skills themselves.

They know how to get the business, and they'll offer up any kind of service employing the cheapest labor they can find.

Sounds like one of those - with the "senior programmer" comment.

rent-a-coder, scriptlance, and elance are all pretty good to find legitimate programmers.

[outrage]

yes, that is something i also think about. they take every work they can find and then give the work to other people and after some days if the work is not such easy they must look for another one and so on and so on. this may work for very easy .php customation but not with bigger projects.

Originally Posted by Eric Lorence

I've noticed a trend of "middle men" popping up as skilled freelancers, but in reality have no real skills themselves.

They know how to get the business, and they'll offer up any kind of service employing the cheapest labor they can find.

Sounds like one of those - with the "senior programmer" comment.

rent-a-coder, scriptlance, and elance are all pretty good to find legitimate programmers.

[BIG Mike]

Until you try them, you're not going to know how good or bad they are, so I find it's best to start off with a series of smallish projects first to test them. That way I waste less time in the long run because problems will usually crop up by the third project.

That's exactly why you want to take excellent care of the best freelancers you find out there and make them a part of your team if you can. Reward them well, keep them happy and interested in working with you so you don't have to continually try new ones.

Once freelancer I hired years ago was so good, he's my partner now

[um1001]

I've had decent luck with oDesk and Elance. But I agree with Mike ... you really won't know until you've worked with a few.

When you find a good one (that is timely, does excellent work, is communicative, and reasonably priced) ... you should hang on for dear life. I treat mine like gold because that's essentially what they are to me.

[mgkimsal]

I've been in web development for 14 years, and other software dev before that. Most projects I've known which have outsourced to someone offsite (whether in the same country or not) have had mostly lousy results, and wasted a lot of time and money. It's hard enough to get right when you're working with people in the same room using the same language and seeing eye to eye on things. Removing all those factors makes it much harder to be successful.

Even one of the guys I know now who's using outsourced developers is looking to hire someone to be onsite fulltime now - he's growing enough that the offsite outsourced model doesn't offer enough value anymore.

The times when it works are when it's a *very* basic and well-understood piece of functionality or result you're looking for - commodity work, basically. Beyond commodity work, where there needs to be complex thinking involved, it becomes much harder to get right. This isn't saying people offshore can't do complex thinking - many can (just like in the US!). But the communication part is key to working on complex projects, and communication is strained when people can't be in the same room.

I've been on the other end - someone didn't pay me last year for the work I did. Rather complex work, taking an existing undocumented system and transforming half-baked email exchanges in to fully functioning systems. He didn't pay, and now I'm suing him. Well, *sued* - filed last year. That's another benefit of dealing with people locally (or maybe it's a drawback to some people) - you have some extra avenues of recourse beyond just leaving 'bad feedback' for someone

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by Eric Lorence

I've noticed a trend of "middle men" popping up as skilled freelancers, but in reality have no real skills themselves.

They know how to get the business, and they'll offer up any kind of service employing the cheapest labor they can find.

Sounds like one of those - with the "senior programmer" comment.

rent-a-coder, scriptlance, and elance are all pretty good to find legitimate programmers.

Eric

You could say the same for almost every organisation you can think of. Construction companies spring to mind.

Do you bring find and manage a plumber, brick layer, architect, carpenter and all the other professionals and trades people yourself if you are building a house...or do you hire a building firm which has managed thousands of projects like yours?

CEO's who run large organisations often move between completely disparate industry secors. Would you say these people have no knowledge or skill?

Freelance companies have a lot of valuable skills like in recruiting, managing complex projects and bringing in the business. Past a certain stage in any business, it is smarter to bring in this type of organisation rather recruit, manage, plan, pay and monitor the staff yourself IMO. We want to work less...yes?

All the best

Barry

EDIT: The reason for this thread was because OP was frustrated with freelance workers. Recruit a firm with a good reputation....frustration gone.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by outrage

...the first time was very good communication. he wanted to be only 24/7 (is this man a robot?). some little results were fast to see. but after nothing happened. after many emails and a little payment more i see some results more but not more then 1/6 from the whole project. he told me he need a another part payment for next work and i paid him 300euro again. after that he just tell me bull****. two weeks ago he wanted to be ready with next module. then a week later. and today he told me that his senior developer will chat with me. what senior developer??? never heard before of a senior developer?

he just tells me bull**** i think.
i wait some days more now and when nothing more results are visible and working i go to a german progger company (cause in germany i life). o.k. i will pay three times more for the work but i know with what guys i´m working.
...

Senior developer is an actual industry term. A Senior developer SHOULD have GOOD experience, and a track record, of all relevant things in his skill set and a good understanding of computers.

Obviously, you were either talking to someone that fancies himself to be the boss, or a junior developer. A junior developer may not know ANYTHING! ALSO, a "boss", or even a junior developer passing it on can create HAVOK! You want to talk with the guy that will actually be doing it!

Well, the german programmer will get rid of the communication problem, and legal problems, and MAY end up being CHEAPER in the long run!

Steve

[knowwow]

Originally Posted by outrage

the first time was very good communication. he wanted to be only 24/7 (is this man a robot?).

Originally Posted by outrage

and today he told me that his senior developer will chat with me. what senior developer??? never heard before of a senior developer?

You never had a some"one" working for you, I mean you never had "a" guy. It was probably a programming firm of some kind in the first place. Typically, there are project managers overseeing the project and putting several guys to it as they are available. This project manager can be the same person who approached you in the first place (like Eric suggest above) or even that can be someone else.

I had two projects done through freelance sites, one on scriptlance (about 6 years ago), one on oDesk (about 3 years ago) and it was the above scenario in both.

Other than the reviews they have (and seeing if they have similar work done before), you have no way of knowing if they will be up to your task. I believe this would be the case for anyone in any country. So I wouldn't cross out a whole country of developers for my future projects if I were you. Try to go with other platforms where providers need to actually spend money to bid for your projects... like elance or oDesk.

Sorry about what you went through. Good luck.

[Damien Roche]

WHOA, get it right:

this gaf could be terrible to find a real proggerteam for a bigger project. or i´m to stupid to choose the right people.

Exactly.

I've been freelancing for 4+ years and I have 99% happy clients, and the 1% was because they were never happy. I broke my back for 10+ hours a day for a measly $10/hour for over 2 years just to satisfy clients, with affordable, quality work (no resentment btw).

You're forgetting something, you experienced what you did because of your negligence also. You didn't do your due diligence in checking references and past work, assessing communication and scaling the project. Did you even ensure any legal backing??

To be honest, things like this HAVE to happen so others can see what happens when you don't take online business seriously.

If you can't manage a single programmer, I'd seriously reconsider your future in internet marketing.

It gets way way more complicated than project management.

[Darth Executor]

Originally Posted by rony_means_warrior

I am New in the field of SEO...Can any one help me.....from where i need to start??

Are you new to the Internet as well? Start a separate thread in the appropriate section, it's rude to ask unrelated questions in someone else's thread.

[zapseo]

Originally Posted by mgkimsal

I've been in web development for 14 years, and other software dev before that. Most projects I've known which have outsourced to someone offsite (whether in the same country or not) have had mostly lousy results, and wasted a lot of time and money. It's hard enough to get right when you're working with people in the same room using the same language and seeing eye to eye on things. Removing all those factors makes it much harder to be successful.

Actually, the truth be known -- the % of software projects that are successful is pretty small.

I've worked on many software projects -- successful and unsuccessful; both from large and well-known companies and smaller ones.

What people say in this thread about communication -- yep, communication is key.

In fact, there's a famous book in the software project management field about this: "The Mythical Man Month." From which the proverb

"Throwing people at a late [software] project only makes it later."

comes.

GREAT book. HIGHLY recommended.

Bet Seasoned would agree.

Live JoyFully!

Judy

software, marketing, copywriting, webmastering...
is your site hacked? contact me.

[seasoned]

Well, Judy, my FAVORITE one is one a lot of people DON'T seem to get! 9 women can't have a baby in a month.

The idea is that some things just CAN'T be done by more than 1 person. It just isn't possible! Would you ask 4 people to turn the SAME screw? Would you EVEN ask them to put on the same wheel? RIDICULOUS! But MANY seem to think that can work!

NOW, if you can separate the project into SEPARATE pieces, like have each person put a DIFFERENT wheel on, that is another story entirely.

Still, I have seen people hire others to do things I already did! HECK, they hired people HERE to do reports, though I did a report that had EVERYTHING! They COMPLIMENTED me a LOT on it! The new hires even came to ME to get queries! That was MONTHS ago! It is STILL not done. They hired MANY to do it. If they gave me access to a webserver, like I asked, I would have had the WHOLE thing done LONG ago.

And a good programmer can do a good job. They are getting RARER though.

A good TECHNICAL manager can fill in the gaps, but THEY are rare.

A so-so manager can cause problems, if not restrained by a good programmer.

As for communication, ever hear about "the telephone game"? Chinese whispers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia That happens a LOT today!

AND, just today, I was asked to "COMMENT" some code. That means it is WANTED code, and they want you to ADD internal documentation, aka COMMENTS!

MAN was it lucky that I was there PERSONALLY, or I would have NEVER realized that he meant "comment OUT"! THAT means it is NOT wanted, and it should be made INTO a comment and left inactive!

I have also heard the word improvise, when they SHOULD have said IMPROVE! LUCKILY, the context usually shows that they don't REALLY mean improvise.

Steve

[la dominatrix]

I use rent a coder I have completed a hundred and forty odd writing assignments and had twenty sucessful projects as a buyer. The escrow system is some protection for not getting ripped off. However not everyoen is good it is jjust a question of finding hte right person. I rarely have to look for work now because my old clients just email me direct.
La dominatrix

[mark z]

You have to check the background of freelancers before you start working with them, especially on Getafreelancer. I personally would only work the freelancers that have provided good work samples, have a proven experience working on relted freelance projects, and does not have any negative comments on their profile.

You really want to be careful when working with a new freelancer on a big, importnat project just based on the fact that you never worked with him/her before,

[Ken Durham]

I have done freelancing for quite some time for some very lucrative companies and have never had an unhappy customer.
Why? Because we both knew what we were getting into before the contract was finalized.

What you want to look for is someone that will take the time to develop you a proper proposal with a time-line and programming flowchart.
The time-line contains what will be done on certain days/weeks/months along with a payment schedule. When they get to point "A" then they get paid XX percentage and you sign off on it that this has indeed been completed. Point B gets XX percentage with you signing off on it and so on. You can also include "penalties" for not making a deadline.

The program flow chart shows the logic of the program and also that they have some clue on what is going on. This flow chart then gets approved or modified as needed. This way you both know where you and the project are heading.

These things give everyone a visible model to follow. I also keep a task list and time card for my clients to see. Each time I begin a new day and start on their project I "punch in". When I am done for the day regarding their project I "punch out". This way they can see the hours involved and that I haven't been watching Oprah and eating bonbons all day.
Each time I begin work on a new feature I post it to the task list. When I have completed it I mark that feature as completed. This way my client can see what has been done and if need be we can then make changes.

I also stay on an instant messenger where my client can get a hold of me whenever I am online. Them being able to see that I am there working is a comfort for them as I have been told many times. It is sort of like showing up to the office where the boss can see if you are at work or not.

There are good programmers out there but some of them have very little self discipline. They procrastinate the work because no boss is standing over their shoulder. Then the hours of procrastination turn into days which turn into weeks and then months. I have seen this quite often even from the best programmers.
With a time-line and a plan you have some sort of direction that both can follow. So next time you give freelancing a try perhaps ask for these things...
If they do not want to provide them then move on.

All the Best,
Ken

[manahei]

At the risk of repeating the sentiments of others, Elance is the place to be. I have hired 57 providers for about 140 projects in the last 4 years. Only one provider let me down, with everything from the dog eating her homework to hurricanes, but the beauty of escrow is that I was able to cancel the job without losing $.

When posting a job on Elance, I always search providers and read feedback, then invite them (unless I have existing providers with the skills I need).

Leverage those freelancers! It's critical to success.

[Scott Million]

While some freelance networks might be better than others, it always comes down to the individual provider. There's good and bad apples everywhere.

I hire part/fulltime whenever possible to avoid going through the hoops of new freelancers, but there are some activities where that isn't ideal (like your situation) and you'll have to make a decision based off of feedback/reviews and your gut.

You might try the "programming" section of this forum and ask for some recommended experts who could complete your project.

There are very savvy and helpful programmers there, and I tend to find very good answers to my questions there... in fact, one which is doing a script for me right now posted on this thread

[ildarius]

According to RAC only 25% of the projects are completed according to specs and on time the other 75% are projects that either:

- Completed late
- With Errors
- Never get completed

I would use RAC if I was you, all the money is escrowed and you don't have to pay anything in advance only once the project is completed. A lot of VERY good software developers hang there too, you can get Russians who worked on the Microsoft development team.

RAC = Rent a Coder

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by HomeComputerGames

I have done freelancing for quite some time for some very lucrative companies and have never had an unhappy customer.
Why? Because we both knew what we were getting into before the contract was finalized.

What you want to look for is someone that will take the time to develop you a proper proposal with a time-line and programming flowchart.
The time-line contains what will be done on certain days/weeks/months along with a payment schedule. When they get to point "A" then they get paid XX percentage and you sign off on it that this has indeed been completed. Point B gets XX percentage with you signing off on it and so on. You can also include "penalties" for not making a deadline.

The program flow chart shows the logic of the program and also that they have some clue on what is going on. This flow chart then gets approved or modified as needed. This way you both know where you and the project are heading.

These things give everyone a visible model to follow. I also keep a task list and time card for my clients to see. Each time I begin a new day and start on their project I "punch in". When I am done for the day regarding their project I "punch out". This way they can see the hours involved and that I haven't been watching Oprah and eating bonbons all day.
Each time I begin work on a new feature I post it to the task list. When I have completed it I mark that feature as completed. This way my client can see what has been done and if need be we can then make changes.

I also stay on an instant messenger where my client can get a hold of me whenever I am online. Them being able to see that I am there working is a comfort for them as I have been told many times. It is sort of like showing up to the office where the boss can see if you are at work or not.

There are good programmers out there but some of them have very little self discipline. They procrastinate the work because no boss is standing over their shoulder. Then the hours of procrastination turn into days which turn into weeks and then months. I have seen this quite often even from the best programmers.
With a time-line and a plan you have some sort of direction that both can follow. So next time you give freelancing a try perhaps ask for these things...
If they do not want to provide them then move on.

All the Best,
Ken

Almost NO legitimate company will just give you a complete timeline and flowchart. The flowchart requires effort based on accurate info, and NOBODY is going to give you that if you say something like you want a shopping cart, and give NO other data. And for a LOW price and SHORT deadline? You're NUTS! If it is really LUCRATIVE, it will be a longer proposal and it may have an RFP, and THEN you may get a ROUGH and PROVISIONAL flow chart and timeline.

BESIDES, if you REALLY want a FLOW CHART, ****YOU**** should do it. If you want to cut costs, ESPECIALLY if you work with foreigners, the flow charts help explain things, and give you an understanding of what must be done.

Heck, I have RARELY created flowcharts AND, when I did, it was AFTER I did the project.

I DID once get HIRED to do the flow charts and write the spec. The project was SO simple, I did IT before the flow chart also. But THEY PAID for the flow chart! When I left, the deliverable was SUPPOSED to be flow charts and docs, PERIOD! They were shocked to find that I did over 80%, and gave complete info how to easily get the other 20% done. My "manager" went behind my back and told them the project would take 8 weeks. They were SHOCKED when they asked ME and I toold them it wouldd take less than 1 week to complete it.

Where I am currently, my jerk "team lead" didn't bother to write the "tech spec", and I was bored and picked up enough, to have an idea of the VAGUE requirements. I am paid for doing NOTHING! Well, I did the WHOLE thing, and he needed a flowchart for his techspec, so I gave him one I created AFTER I was done! HECK, I am often BORED in my job. I finished this project, and they haven't even had their FIRST meeting to "design" it. The "team lead" presented my report to the "BSA", and she had only ONE change. I already finished that. And they meet TOMORROW!

At The red cross, they wanted flow charts, and I did THOSE AFTER I did the code.

BTW NONE of that was done with someone standing over my shoulder. Want to make sure a 1 hour project takes me 2 weeks? Get someone to watch over my shoulder. They almost ALWAYS ask questions and ask me to explain things also. HECK, they BOUND MY HANDS by INSISTING that it be in korn, because they think THEY have an easier time with that than PERL! ROTFLMAOND!!!!!!!! Well, there are some things Korn could NOT do, and I found a way around them. The "team lead" wanted it to run under a minute. I got it to run under a second!

BTW I don't think I EVER met a programmer that watched Oprah or ate bon bons!

Steve

[jasn009]

i am also working as freelancer, and all the time i try to give 100% satisfaction to my client and even they are also satisfied with my work.