I Was Looking At Infusionsoft And Then I Noticed This.....

[Rod Cortez]

Hi all,

I was looking to test drive Infusionsoft since I noticed a few marketers switch to it (besides, I like to test things). But I noticed one feature it had that I was not crazy about. I unsubscribed from a newsletter powered by Infusionsoft and after I unsubscribed, it then asked me if I wanted to report the e-mail as spam. It was a pop-up box that asked the question and there were two big buttons: one that said "yes" and one that said "no".

I would think this makes it way too easy for unsubscribes to report an opt-in e-mail as spam.

If you use Infusionsoft (or know someone who does) and you (they) used to use Aweber, Getresponse, Constant Contact or some other autoresponder have you noticed any increase / decrease in spam complaints? Or is it pretty much the same?

I realize it's not an apples to apples comparison, but my focus here is to try and see if people have noticed any change in spam complaints when they switched to Infusionsoft.

Thank you in advance.

RoD "Where's-My-444oz-Coffee-Mug?" Cortez

[Brian McElroy]

Infusionsoft is one of the solutions I'm looking into... would REALLY
appreciate input too!

Cheers,
Brian

[Lance K]

I'd be interested in an explanation of the "logic" behind that "feature" as well. It seems pretty rediculous to me. Maybe they have a good reason for doing it that way. Will wait to hear more.

@Rod Only 44 ounces? I guess you are serious about weaning yourself off the caffine!

[Zeus66]

Originally Posted by Lance K

@Rod Only 44 ounces? I guess you are serious about weaning yourself off the caffine!

I think the man wrote "444oz." Serious caffeine jones, there.

My guess would be that InfusionSoft added that curious spam complaint thing in an effort to get whitelisted somewhere (or a bunch of somewheres). Can't really think of any other good reason.

John

[Calvin Woon]

hey yeah I remember unsubscribing from a list which used infusionsoft.

My eyes opened when I saw that option too. The list I unsubscribed from wasn't spam, but I'm not sure why but that big 'yes' button looked so tempting. :S

I'm just wondering how many people will actually just go ahead and click that button since it looked so inviting.

[Eric Louviere]

I have infusion soft, but have not noticed that at all. Thanks for bringing that up Rod, as I have a project about to go live that uses infusion. I do know several marketers who use it too and have not had heard too many complaints thus far... except about the email deliver ability.

My programmer really likes Infusion though (I suck at tech) and has had good things to say about it. It's expensive though.

Eric

[Edward J Turner]

I believe Infusionsoft is using this technique as a way to learn about customers who may be abusing their system. If they receive MANY reports of spam, they can further investigate (just to make sure that the Infusionsoft customer isn't doing anything fishy with their "so-called leads").

However, these "Spam" complaints are NOT Spam complaints that are reported from the lead's ISP and forwarded to Infusionsoft. So, these Spam complaints won't necessarily harm the customer or Infusionsoft themselves...but allows them to police their customers a little closer to head-off anything that could become a problem with email deliverability from ISP's reporting the spam.

Hope that makes sense.

[.X.]

I've noticed that and don't know what level
of concern it is - just because someone hits a
"spam" button doesn't make it spam - I'd like
to know who gets that information and what
it means - I'll drop a note to Caleb Jennings
and see if I can get him over here to answer.

[garyv]

maybe a popup like that is preventative maintenance. I know some email providers actually do put their own spam complaint link into the bottom of every email. So when someone unsubscribes, maybe the popup is a way to get them to make a complaint, without making a real complaint to their email provider. Thus saving infusionsoft from being blacklisted by one of these providers.

[Rod Cortez]

Originally Posted by .X.

I've noticed that and don't know what level
of concern it is - just because someone hits a
"spam" button doesn't make it spam - I'd like
to know who gets that information and what
it means - I'll drop a note to Caleb Jennings
and see if I can get him over here to answer.

That's another thing I forgot to ask. I wanted to know who got that information and what it was used for.

Thanx for your comments everyone.

@Lance, yeah it was 444 oz.......you missed a "4".....

[Steven Wagenheim]

Okay, I don't use this service but I'm still going to answer this is a very
logical way (what marketers don't use logic?)

The LAST thing I want to do with my AR service is make it easier for my
subscribers to report me as spam.

It's bad enough that, even though I use Aweber, use double opt in and
always keep my emails on message, that I get spam complaints (mostly
from AOL users) So what, I want to make it easier for them?

I can't for the life of me figure out why this company would put that
feature in their autoresponder service.

[HeySal]

I've had a few email spammer who continually send me their newsletters when I never subscribed to them in the first place - I'd like to have been able to point them out as spam when unsubscribing as the person didn't leave any way to contact them directly to tell them I was sick of their spamming acts.

[timpears]

I unsubscribed from something today and saw that link. Don't remember what it was. Didn't think too much about it but it did make me hesitate. But this thread has reminded me of a few days ago when reviewing auto responders and they made a big deal about how they don't tolerate people who SPAM and will cancel your account if you do that. Now this is an outfit that only uses double op in, so I wondered how could you use their service to send out SPAM, and I sent them an email to ask, and never got an answer. Obviously I would not want to use their service, but then I don't remember the name of the company.

If you use double opt in, which most do, and you are on the list, how can that be SPAM? If you send out too many offers folks will get fed up and unsubscribe, but the way I look at it that isn't SPAM as you did subscribe.

[FollowUpMaster]

Hi there! This is my Official hello to the forum here ;-) Thank you X for notifying me so I can help answer these questions.

I am an Infusionsoft Certified Consultant (ICC) and have a lot of time and experience with the app. I work with elite marketers and very large lists and have looked at this specific metric.

This function is solely because of infusionsofts high level of security and compliance with CAN-SPAM and PCI.

This has not been an issue with anyone I have worked with and I have only heard of it from the devoted "spam team" when people are really spamming people.

The team is very knowledgeable about daily spam compliance updates and work very closely with clients to identify the problem if there is one, and solve it so they don't encounter it in the future.

I am one of the VERY FEW ICC's that is also a full time IMer, so I know how to fully leverage the power of the software and implementing marketing strategies and automating as much functionality as possible for you ;-)

I hope this helps out, and if you have more questions feel free to contact me!


Caleb Jennings aka "The Follow Up Master"

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by FollowUpMaster

This function is solely because of infusionsofts high level of security and compliance with CAN-SPAM and PCI.

What could it have to do with security or CAN-SPAM?

[Kay King]

allows them to police their customers a little closer

Interesting concept -but I don't find "policing" mentioned on the terms of use. I could not find anything referring to "in house" spam complaints. Nor do I find any mention of the company having it's own "report spam" button.

I do find (under "acceptable use") some rather hefty fees charged to customers for each spam complaint. If you are using this service and haven't read those - you might want to check out the fees and consequences of spam complaints list there.

Surely these penalties and fees apply only to spam complaints filed outside the company site - which may be why they try to keep the complaints in house.

kay

[Steve MacLellan]

Originally Posted by Edward

I believe Infusionsoft is using this technique as a way to learn about customers who may be abusing their system. If they receive MANY reports of spam, they can further investigate (just to make sure that the Infusionsoft customer isn't doing anything fishy with their "so-called leads").

I think you're right Edward. After-all, you can import leads into Infusion, and the service doesn't have any idea where they are coming from.

Regards,
Steve MacLellan

[davist]

My business uses Infusion and I've seen the opt out and SPAM report prompt. If a email recipient reports "yes" it simply goes to Infusion, nowhere else. If someone mounts lots of "yes" reports, Infusion follows up to see what you are up to. With anyone that does regular email marketing you always get people who opt out or don't remember they opted in.

To their credit they seem to do a pretty good job protecting their deliverability. However, we have run into a situation twice in which a very large company blocked Infusion's mass email server. Infusion refused to help because it was not due to a national blacklist, just a single company. We had to do all the leg-work to get unblocked. Infusion's suggestion was to upgrade to their "premium" email package for $2000 and $199/month on top of our initial $5000 setup fee and $25/month/user.

They have alot of nice features but I would stay away. They are adding new features all the time (none that we have found very useful), but with every "upgrade" there seems to be a dozen or so bugs that take weeks to fix. We invested too much time and money to leave. Choose your CRM wisely.

[Chris Lockwood]

Does anyone really think the true spammers use a service like Infusionsoft? Of course not.

Still waiting for an answer to my question from Sept 25 above.

[Dick Doe]

Originally Posted by Rod Cortez

Hi all,

I was looking to test drive Infusionsoft since I noticed a few marketers switch to it (besides, I like to test things). But I noticed one feature it had that I was not crazy about. I unsubscribed from a newsletter powered by Infusionsoft and after I unsubscribed, it then asked me if I wanted to report the e-mail as spam. It was a pop-up box that asked the question and there were two big buttons: one that said "yes" and one that said "no".

I would think this makes it way too easy for unsubscribes to report an opt-in e-mail as spam.

If you use Infusionsoft (or know someone who does) and you (they) used to use Aweber, Getresponse, Constant Contact or some other autoresponder have you noticed any increase / decrease in spam complaints? Or is it pretty much the same?

I realize it's not an apples to apples comparison, but my focus here is to try and see if people have noticed any change in spam complaints when they switched to Infusionsoft.

Thank you in advance.

RoD "Where's-My-444oz-Coffee-Mug?" Cortez

Hi Rod,

Yes, I unsubscribed from a newsletter yesterday which was sent through infusion soft. I saw that 'report as spam' button too. I won't be surprised if the sender receives way too many spam complaints even when he is NOT sending spam, lol

I better stick with Getresponse for now

[SoCalRealtor]

I'm in real estate and Infusionsoft seems to offer excellent functionality, but it does seem to be more costly than SalesForce, NetSuite, AgentOffice, etc. Anyone here in real estate and using Infusionsoft?

Also interested in general feedback: both the good and the bad, please.

Thanks

[Dmitry]

I don't see how spam complaints are your problems when using double opt-in with a third party emails service provider. SPAM complaints become their problem now - because they are the service provider. That's why they force you to include a physical address at the bottom of each email, that's why they "ask" you to switch to double opt-in, that's why they don't allow you to just import a list - they leads have to confirm, that's why they don't allow you to use co-registrations (although GetResponse "amazingly" don't have a problem with that if you use their co-reg... and even double opt-in somehow becomes an unnecessary vanity), and so on... so once I switch to one of these and I comply with their rules - SPAM becomes solely their problem and responsibility. I don't give a **** if all my subscribers report my emails as SPAM - the ESP has their IP's and confirmations so it's their problem to explain that subscriber why it is not SPAM. People should make a clear distinction between being spammed and just being pitched too much.

[One Inch Punch]

Originally Posted by davist

To their credit they seem to do a pretty good job protecting their deliverability. However, we have run into a situation twice in which a very large company blocked Infusion's mass email server. Infusion refused to help because it was not due to a national blacklist, just a single company. We had to do all the leg-work to get unblocked. Infusion's suggestion was to upgrade to their "premium" email package for $2000 and $199/month on top of our initial $5000 setup fee and $25/month/user.

I had the same thing happen with Aweber and a huge email provider. I was frustrated by the lack of support but at least they did not suggest I upgrade.

[georgeslater]

Hi

I've used the system and have mainly large cleints using it. None up until now have had issues with Spam. Most are on single opt in. But none send Spam.

Almost all came from SBI or other web systems with a database, Excel and outlook based email addresses when they first started out. We then took them thorugh a cleaning and depulication process and then sent emails specifiically asking people to unsubscribe if they did not want any info. After that exercise all the new email addresses are added via forms that are attached to the client (really useful stuff for tracking and reporting).

Once a client has unsubscribed they are left in the database, which is really useful. That means if by any other means they maybe added again the system allows that email to be turned back on. Also you can call clients and tell them they have unsubscibed.

I can tell you the amount of "paying clients" that unsubscibe because they just click on anything is huge. But none seem to do the Yes to Spam thing, in my expericence.

So I would say it is not an issue that should stop you going forward on a project unless you either send a lot of spam or just use emailing as your main contact method. If you are using email to infill between hard copy, fax, voice and do things like order confirmation then I would not even consider it an issue.

[Rod Cortez]

Originally Posted by georgeslater

Hi

I've used the system and have mainly large cleints using it. None up until now have had issues with Spam. Most are on single opt in. But none send Spam.

Almost all came from SBI or other web systems with a database, Excel and outlook based email addresses when they first started out. We then took them thorugh a cleaning and depulication process and then sent emails specifiically asking people to unsubscribe if they did not want any info. After that exercise all the new email addresses are added via forms that are attached to the client (really useful stuff for tracking and reporting).

Once a client has unsubscribed they are left in the database, which is really useful. That means if by any other means they maybe added again the system allows that email to be turned back on. Also you can call clients and tell them they have unsubscibed.

I can tell you the amount of "paying clients" that unsubscibe because they just click on anything is huge. But none seem to do the Yes to Spam thing, in my expericence.

So I would say it is not an issue that should stop you going forward on a project unless you either send a lot of spam or just use emailing as your main contact method. If you are using email to infill between hard copy, fax, voice and do things like order confirmation then I would not even consider it an issue.

George, the issue I originally brought up was when someone unsubscribes there is a pop up asking them if the email they received was "spam". They get the option of clicking "yes" or "no". I've still yet to get a straight answer on how that information is used. Is it only for internal use? I'm curious who gets that information and how it is used.

RoD

[JVManna]

Hi, folks.

My name is Joseph Manna and I'm the Community Manager for Infusionsoft, where I help advocate our consumer's questions and concerns throughout our company. I often elevate concerns from our user community, blog posts found in social media and help guide TPTB to embrace social media. Enough about me, you can follow me on Twitter, if you want to know more.

I came across this thread when searching for our PCI compliance but I see that there was quite a stir about our e-mail opt-out process. I'm replying because I probably know more about both sides of the issue and can let you know exactly what's up. I'll start replying to various points in the thread and close off with a recap.

Is it only for internal use? I'm curious who gets that information and how it is used.
-RoD

Yes. The data collected from the opt-out process is analyzed internally so we can monitor the behavior of our marketers, making sure they are are conducting themselves within our Acceptable Use Policy. This is necessary to maintain high e-mail delivery numbers which affect all clients.

A live human reviews all spam reports. At this time we don't have anything automated handling the intake of such reports, but soon we'll start making the feedback accessible to clients in their software. (More info on that below.)

Besides, it's in both our best interests that recipients tell us first, instead of hitting that Report Spam button in their e-mail client. We do not share any information with any third party companies (especially not ISPs!).

If you use Infusionsoft (or know someone who does) and you (they) used to use Aweber, Getresponse, Constant Contact or some other autoresponder have you noticed any increase / decrease in spam complaints? Or is it pretty much the same?

Complaint rates are the same. They don't relate to the ESP, but the marketing practices performed by the person creating the campaign. I've seen clients bounce between all those ESPs and use us, and the iron fist comes down hard on them for spam complaints because of their marketing activities, too frequent e-mails, unsolicited mail, etc.

I believe Infusionsoft is using this technique as a way to learn about customers who may be abusing their system. If they receive MANY reports of spam, they can further investigate (just to make sure that the Infusionsoft customer isn't doing anything fishy with their "so-called leads").

Correct.

[...] Thus saving infusionsoft from being blacklisted by one of these providers.

That's the motive. We'd rather address the needs of the recipients than have to plead ourselves with abuse desks.

The LAST thing I want to do with my AR service is make it easier for my
subscribers to report me as spam.

Allow me to correct you, the last thing our customers want is for us to be blacklisted by the ISPs because "that other guy" decided to send 150K mails to his "half-opt-ins." We've seen significant results that reflect since these changes few months ago, spam complaint rates have dropped universally for all clients and deliverability/reputation increase.

[...] I don't find "policing" mentioned on the terms of use. I could not find anything referring to "in house" spam complaints. Nor do I find any mention of the company having it's own "report spam" button.

Not to debate legalese, I'm sure you'd want us to investigate our users for spam if your e-mail deliverability was at risk. We reserve the right to investigate the activities of our users for questionable activity. Trust me, we don't moderate or censor users, in fact we offer them a lot of freedom... but when it comes to spam complaints, we take them very seriously. (Yes, even those reported through the opt-out method CAN count as spam complaints.)

To their credit they seem to do a pretty good job protecting their deliverability. However, we have run into a situation twice in which a very large company blocked Infusion's mass email server. Infusion refused to help because it was not due to a national blacklist, just a single company. We had to do all the leg-work to get unblocked. Infusion's suggestion was to upgrade to their "premium" email package for $2000 and $199/month on top of our initial $5000 setup fee and $25/month/user.

They have alot of nice features but I would stay away. They are adding new features all the time (none that we have found very useful), but with every "upgrade" there seems to be a dozen or so bugs that take weeks to fix. We invested too much time and money to leave. Choose your CRM wisely.

E-mail deliverability is vital to our users and us. While I don't know the details specific to this example, I'll share that we don't have the manpower to represent users when they are blocked by individual mail servers. We'll assess all e-mail delivery issues and will demonstrate goodwill to help our users get unblocked ... but network administrators sometimes wish to tune up their anti-spam controls, and that is beyond our control. For those cases, we recommend the marketer themselves reach out to the network administrator and make an agreement to white-list Infusionsoft's mail servers for optimal delivery.

We use different pools of IP addresses for sending mail*. Most users are on the shared pool of IPs, which open the possibility for more mail blocks taking place for everyone. Without negotiating with a third party to allow our shared IPs, a client is suggested to use our premium pool which required them to be provisioned on their own IP and certified by Habeas. Most clients who run into this roadblock address the problem rather than upgrading, understandably.

* Pools of mail server IPs: Single-Opt-In, Double Opt-in, Premium Single-Opt-In, and Premium-Double-Opt-In. Clients are able to use the cleaner DOI IPs when their recipients confirm their opt-in status at no additional charge.

As far as the software releases and bugs -- I hear ya. It was painful, but we've improved our code quality lately and clients have noted this in our satisfaction surveys. We fix all customer-reported bugs within three weeks ... I'm not sure of what other CRM/marketing software that does that for their customers. We're only getting better; we thank you for your continued patronage (and patience).

Does anyone really think the true spammers use a service like Infusionsoft? Of course not.

No, but we attract them occasionally. We terminate them immediately to preserve our industry-leading deliverability.

I unsubscribed from a newsletter yesterday which was sent through infusion soft. I saw that 'report as spam' button too. I won't be surprised if the sender receives way too many spam complaints even when he is NOT sending spam, lol

All spam complaints are reviewed by our staff. We discard false complaints, but monitor patterns on troublesome clients. These complaints also have useful feedback directly from recipients. One example comes to mind, "Stop sending this to me so much!" ... this is direct feedback to minimize the frequency of e-mails in one's marketing. We see the value in these feedback reports and will be making these reports accessible to clients soon.

I don't give a **** if all my subscribers report my emails as SPAM - the ESP has their IP's and confirmations so it's their problem to explain that subscriber why it is not SPAM.

We give a crap. It's all about managing your prospects' expectations. If your recipients are reporting you as spam, that's a clear sign that you need to change your marketing practices. This is the problem -- too many marketers seem to think only the ESP that account for deliverability -- in reality, it's a shared responsibility. Many of our successful clients send TONS of e-mail to recipients, but they set the proper expectations and have nearly zero complaints. It's possible.

E-mail recipients (generally) hold e-mail senders at gunpoint. If they decide your message is spam in the three seconds the see your subject line, it's spam. Will there ever be zero spam complaints? No, but there's no excuse for anyone to blindly send e-mail expecting the ESP to pick up the slack of the marketer.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here was my response to clients who were curious and/or upset about the recent "Report this message as SPAM?" changes in the opt out process:

A number of clients grew concerned by this addition to the Opt-Out process; most concerns were regarding the fear of being surreptitiously reported for Spam and if they would be adversely impacted by the changes as a result.

These concerns are understandable and admittedly we weren't exactly all on the same page when this feature would be rolled out to clients. I've taken efforts to close any communication gaps so all clients are aware when changes like this are made so they are in the loop.

Since you also asked why these changes benefit Infusionsoft clients, I'm happy to share the benefits, directly and indirectly.

-- Infusionsoft clients are able to receive quicker feedback from e-mail messages sent to their customers. Coming soon, more immediate feedback will be made live within Infusionsoft applications; but is currently under development.

-- End-users (recipients) are empowered in handling opt-out and reporting functionalities through the Infusionsoft closed-loop feedback mechanism. This is key to minimizing redundant or unnecessary ISP “Report Spam” notifications, which result in poor deliverability.

-- Infusionsoft E-Mail Compliance Team is able to more adequately collect qualitative feedback from these reports and more effectively run further heuristics on outliers who are inappropriately using our e-mail services.

-- Ultimately, this provides quicker analysis and detection of abusers (and those who just need a refresher of marketing practices) who cause e-mail deliverability for all of us here. Nothing is automated about it, as our team sifts through the feedback and these notifications serve as triggers of abuse that would otherwise be undetected.

Personally, I find this is a great step to improve deliverability because recipients are empowered to make decisions as to whether they want e-mail, and it’s their right (and consumer protection) that affords them the expectation for opt-in e-mail and respect for opt-out mechanisms.

Thanks for the feedback and the questions. It’s users who engage with us and share their feedback who help us gauge our consumer experiences, and for that we’re extremely grateful. :-)

Thanks,
Joe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To recap:

• Only our e-mail compliance staff collects Spam reports.
• We don't tolerate spammers and will terminate them immediately.
• We educate marketers who are unaware they were spamming.
• We offer freedom to clients to market freely. However, the iron fist comes down when spam complaints increase. Be respectful to your prospects.
• As a result [of the report spam feature], e-mail deliverability increased, to all of our clients' benefit.
• A lot more features (and reporting) will be on their way to clients so they can have instant access to feedback provided by recipients.
• We're not evil. We're on your side.

I hope this helps clarify any confusion on the opt-out process and our stance on defending our e-mail deliverability for clients.

If anyone has any concerns, questions, problems or complaints, please let me know. My e-mail address is joseph.manna at infusionsoft.com. I'll do my best to help you get the information that you need.


Thanks for your time!

-- Joe Manna
Community Manager
Infusionsoft

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by JVManna

Complaint rates are the same. They don't relate to the ESP, but the marketing practices performed by the person creating the campaign. I've seen clients bounce between all those ESPs and use us, and the iron fist comes down hard on them for spam complaints because of their marketing activities, too frequent e-mails, unsolicited mail, etc.

Actually, complaints more often relate to the laziness or intelligence of the person pressing the Spam button.

The fact that you try to blame that on the email sender tells me you don't get this basic concept.

Doesn't your company know if the person actually subscribed to that list, which is what determines whether the message was spam?

[Nick Doyle]

Infusionsoft is actually some pretty hot hardware (or software lol) at the moment. Its pretty expensive (like 300 a month minimum) but these guys will be the new plug-n-play in IM.

I didn't even know about that feature tho ... I'm still sticking to the beloved aweber. Hasnt let me down yet

[hittjw]

It would be nice if InfusionSoft would combine the unsubscribe with the "report as spam", maybe use a check box on the unsubscribe screen.

I also agree with the point, "how can it be spam if you double-opt in" -- however, sometimes people forget they joined or were imported from another system or don't recognize changes in the newsletter (or they are just stupid.)

Right now I'm using Aweber + Thirdsphere + Goldmine + Quickbooks, but InfusionSoft is top of my list to replace some back end processes here. Just haven't been able to justify the switch due to volume on my end.

Best,

Justin

[MeTellYou]

I'm sure some people will just do it out of spite. They will click yes just for the fun of it, because they don't realize how much it hurts. They don't realize it causes you to lose business, customers, money.

Who came up with this ridiculous idea anyways?!

[Steven Carl Kelly]

I think the point isn't whether it IS spam or not, but whether it is PERCEIVED as spam or not. I'd rather have folks reporting their perceived spam to Infusionsoft than to their ISP.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by MeTellYou

Who came up with this ridiculous idea anyways?!

Personally, I think it is a GREAT idea. If I were using Infusionsoft to mail my campaigns, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing I would want as a marketer. In fact, maybe I should look into subscribing to Infusionsoft... this is the sort of concept that proves to me that these people are really thinking.

[JVManna]

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

Actually, complaints more often relate to the laziness or intelligence of the person pressing the Spam button.

The fact that you try to blame that on the email sender tells me you don't get this basic concept.

Doesn't your company know if the person actually subscribed to that list, which is what determines whether the message was spam?

All contacts that are permitted to be imported in our system are required to be 100% opt-in; nevertheless, some marketers seem to believe it's OK to buy lists and import and blast their list.

I hate to get sucked into endless debates, but I have to stand firm on my position on this. I don't fault recipients for reporting messages as spam. Trust me, I previously worked for the AOL Postmaster, I know users don't know the technical definition of Spam ... but the point is people are extremely sensitive to companies trespassing in their mailbox.

Originally Posted by TheToolWiz

Last time I looked at an AOL browser, it was easier to notice -- and click -- the "SPAM" button than the "DELETE" button. I've known LOTS of people who just go through their inbox clicking the "SPAM" button for one email after another without ever looking at them. Many are for newsletters they subscribe to, some are from clubs they belong to, and so on.
[...]

If I were to design some kind of form like what's being talked about here, I'd include details on WHEN the person OPTED-IN, along with some radio buttons that let them select the best reason WHY they're unsubscribing, as well as some kind of a comment box. Then if they clicked the SPAM button, at least you'd have some useful validation info.
[...]
-David

The anti-spam systems AOL uses are very advanced and have variable thresholds which heir on the side of the sender. The less frequent users "Report Spam," the more weight their report counts against a senders' reputation ... to balance the users who click RS too much. ;-)

After the "yes" button is clicked, the reporter is guided to provide more qualitative feedback as well as an open-ended text input to collect their perspective. Trust me, it's qualitative when several recipients state they "never signed up" and we can correlate that with a data import.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll relay that to our e-mail systems team so they can better inform/remind e-mail recipients. (Remember, the goal here is to provide recipients a voice, not to mute them.)

Originally Posted by Nick Doyle

Infusionsoft is actually some pretty hot hardware (or software lol) at the moment. Its pretty expensive (like 300 a month minimum) but these guys will be the new plug-n-play in IM.

I didn't even know about that feature tho ... I'm still sticking to the beloved aweber. Hasnt let me down yet

Thanks for the compliments, Nick. No worries, we have plenty of clients who switched from AWeber and are very satisfied. Feel free to PM me for more info.

Originally Posted by hittjw

It would be nice if InfusionSoft would combine the unsubscribe with the "report as spam", maybe use a check box on the unsubscribe screen.

I also agree with the point, "how can it be spam if you double-opt in" -- however, sometimes people forget they joined or were imported from another system or don't recognize changes in the newsletter (or they are just stupid.)

Right now I'm using Aweber + Thirdsphere + Goldmine + Quickbooks, but InfusionSoft is top of my list to replace some back end processes here. Just haven't been able to justify the switch due to volume on my end.

Best,

Justin

Exactly, Justin. Many recipients tend to forget they opted in for a newsletter/mailing list. One way to retain such people is to employ a conscious follow-up marketing campaign. Oh, and to send truly informative newsletters on a regular, expected basis.

I'd like to let you know that we're positioned to help you combine your four systems into one that you can automate. When you're interested or want more info, feel free to PM me.

Originally Posted by MeTellYou

I'm sure some people will just do it out of spite. They will click yes just for the fun of it, because they don't realize how much it hurts. They don't realize it causes you to lose business, customers, money.

Who came up with this ridiculous idea anyways?!

The Report this message as SPAM feature, as described by the OP does not affect a sender's reputation or result in lost revenue or business. This feedback is used strictly for investigative purposes internally.

If a sender happens to land themselves into hot water by spamming their list, then yes, we will restrict their usage to address their activity which can impact revenue.

Originally Posted by faxinator

Personally, I think it is a GREAT idea. If I were using Infusionsoft to mail my campaigns, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing I would want as a marketer. In fact, maybe I should look into subscribing to Infusionsoft... this is the sort of concept that proves to me that these people are really thinking.

Thanks for the kind words, faxinator. We aim to empower our small business owners and Internet marketers to conduct themselves responsibly and effectively. This information will soon be made available to clients. If you have any questions, please PM me.

~Joe

[snidge]

I recently developed mail list software. I am posting this because I am looking to take on a few people for testing purposes. The thing is ready to go, I just need some feedback because everything can always improve!

I developed the software because I do IM, and wanted something simple I could run on my server to manage, and send to all of my lists. It has since come a long way!

The software has everything ready to go, and also has an auto installation system to make things easy. Just upload to your server/host, follow the steps, and you will be ready to go! I'll even set it up for you if you need a hand.

I'll list some features to get you interested.

- Multiple List Management
- Multiple From Address Capabilities
- HTML E-mail
- Plain Text E-mail
- Mass E-mail
- Individual User E-mail
- User Information capabilities in body and subject. (eg: %firstname% = users first name)
- Auto Response
- Admin User Management
- Admin Add Multiple E-mails at once
- Generate HTML opt in forms
- User Unsubscribe with e-mail verification (optional)
- Admin List Management
- Easy Installation
- Free Updates
- No Monthly Recurring Fees

All you need is a web server or host to run my software.

I need about 4 (maximum of 10) testers for the software that can give feedback before we start promoting/selling it. I am offering it at special rate to whoever is interested, as long as you can provide feedback.

The feedback is a must, Very important!

If you are interested in taking a look, please PM here, or contact me at the following address: Customer Support Form - Contact Us.


Thanks a lot,
Matt Primmer
Snidge.com

[hodgi]

Hey everyone...

Looks like we have a little bit of a heated debate going on here. Let me attempt to shed a little bit of light on the situation and throw in my 2 cents.

Joe has a good point - regardless of what we as internet marketers believe, if a customer complains, a customer complains - regardless of whether it's a valid complaint or not. That being said, having access to those complaints is a big deal. I am an Infusionsoft user, so I know that when a customer opts out of the lists, I know about it, and can use other forms of marketing - direct, phone, etc. - automatically.

As far as why the complaint button is there - I totally get it. If that button wasn't there, the complaints are more likely going to be sent to the ISP - that is bad. So keeping it in house, they can review the complaint. If it's unsubstantiated, they don't do anything about it. If it is, they do. Moral of the story - don't be a shady internet marketer. If you have a valid opt in (or 2) - there's nothing to worry about, even if they do complain. If you don't - then don't send them emails - get them to provide a valid opt in thru other marketing mediums, and then you are ok. If you don't want to get caught speeding, don't speed.

Guys (and girls) don't take this opportunity to tweak and measure your content / marketing practices for granted. Any feedback (good or bad) you can get from your customers is a good thing. Use it to improve your marketing. To be completely honest, a wise man once said "The guilty take the truth to be hard." If you are a little sensitive to the subject, ask your self why.

That's it I'm done,

hodgi

[SwissMarketer]

So could someone summ up the advantages/disadvantages of infusionsoft compared to Aweber, Getresponse or ConstantContact?

Is infusionsoft also avaiable in German (maybe also French and Italian)?

Thanks in advance,

Robert

[Wealth Mentor]

Originally Posted by davist

Infusion's suggestion was to upgrade....on top of our initial $5000 setup fee and $25/month/user.

Huh!?!?!?!!?? "...setup fee and $25/month/user"

Is this a typo????? Their website currently offers 3 flavors starting at $1,999 up front and $199 per month, up to $5,999 up front and $499 per month!!!

Was there some special deal/WSO at one time, or did their prices take a MAJOR hike up the food chain?!!?

[JVManna]

Originally Posted by SwissMarketer

So could someone summ up the advantages/disadvantages of infusionsoft compared to Aweber, Getresponse or ConstantContact?

Is infusionsoft also avaiable in German (maybe also French and Italian)?

Thanks in advance,

Robert

Hi Robert,

Pardon my delay in the response, but I've been all over the Interwebs gathering customer feedback for the company and letting folks know more about the who, what and why about Infusionsoft.

Infusionsoft is not ideal for non-English language businesses. At this time, the company is focused on maturing our product(s) for small businesses in United States. Down the road, we'll be exploring the interest of International users. That said, we have plenty of happy clients around the world (UK, France, Canada, Mexico, Australia and more) who love us and use our marketing automation software very successfully.

As far as features, I would likely appear biased, so I encourage you to compare them head-to-head on our products page on our Web site (PM me since this post wont allow links). We offer three different editions (basic, deluxe and pro) which enable you to pick the right one that fits with your business.

I love the fact that our solution is unique to the market. Because of that, I know it's not for everyone... but the convenience, integration and reliability of our all-in-one marketing software makes it perfect for a growing small business, unleashing the true entrepreneur in folks.

Unlike AWeber, Constant Contact, Get Response, iContact, Infusionsoft provides one solution for e-mail marketing such as advanced contact/list segmentation, custom marketing campaigns, voice/fax broadcast support, order forms, lead capture, shopping cart and a full reporting suite. It's also Web-based and receives frequent updates delivering more features and assurance that you'll be able to grow your business.

I hope this answers your questions about Infusionsoft. I apologize for bumping this rather long thread. If you have further questions, you can reach me at joseph.manna [at] infusionsoft.com.

--Joe

[jmidas]

Joe, I have been with you guys for about 3 years now and have been through a lot of your growing pains and must say, I am pretty happy I stuck with you (I was close to leaving back in 06 or so).

Overall, the product is great, and I think you are right to point out how much more infusion offers vs the others.

But, can you answer that initial question from the OP of this thread?

I know there is a way for us to do custom opt out messages (although I have never done one, but need to get around to that soon). If you do a custom one, does it eliminate that big "Is this spam" button. And, by the way, why is that there? I havent had any issues with spam complaints, but I think that is a fuction of only marketing to double opt ins. Still, though, it would be nice to make it less prominent.

Thoughts?

[JVManna]

Originally Posted by jmidas

Joe, I have been with you guys for about 3 years now and have been through a lot of your growing pains and must say, I am pretty happy I stuck with you (I was close to leaving back in 06 or so).

Overall, the product is great, and I think you are right to point out how much more infusion offers vs the others.

But, can you answer that initial question from the OP of this thread?

I know there is a way for us to do custom opt out messages (although I have never done one, but need to get around to that soon). If you do a custom one, does it eliminate that big "Is this spam" button. And, by the way, why is that there? I havent had any issues with spam complaints, but I think that is a fuction of only marketing to double opt ins. Still, though, it would be nice to make it less prominent.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Jmidas for your positive thoughts. We're glad we help small businesses grow with our software.

I'd love to post a link to the individual threaded response, but can't yet. You can find my full response to the OP as message #26 above. (Scroll up).

As a brief response to your question -- clients aren't penalized by having the Report Spam functionality. It's a great move to make certain their marketing practices are up to par with industry standards. It provides a voice for recipients and very useful qualitative feedback.

Clients are able to make a few minor tweaks to the opt-out confirmation page; however, in order to maintain regulatory compliance, we don't have many controls available for the page.

Even now, the feedback we receive is WAY better than it was before. ISP spam complaints are significantly down and we're able to react quicker to problematic marketers. This is a huge win for both recipients, marketers and our company, even if it's an eyesore.

If you want, follow the company on Twitter (@Infusionsoft) or if you want to follow me at (@JoeManna). We're always listening to the needs of entrepreneurs, small business owners and Internet marketers.

~Joe

[JVManna]

Originally Posted by Wealth Mentor

Huh!?!?!?!!?? "...setup fee and $25/month/user"

Is this a typo????? Their website currently offers 3 flavors starting at $1,999 up front and $199 per month, up to $5,999 up front and $499 per month!!!

Was there some special deal/WSO at one time, or did their prices take a MAJOR hike up the food chain?!!?

Wealth Mentor,

I'm not sure about the confusion in the prices. But I want to inform you and others that we're offering three editions of Infusionsoft -- Basic, Deluxe and Pro. These editions have different features and benefits as one may require for their business.

For starters, the basic package starts at $1999 setup and activation with $199 a month for five users. We also offer an optional Habeas e-mail package with a certified IP for clients -- provided they demonstrate exceptional e-mail marketing best practices.

Personally, I believe that package isn't necessary if one confirms their opt-ins (double-opt in) and sets proper expectations from the moment of lead capture, during the nurture process and continuing on after the sale.

We publish an extensive list of e-mail best practices within our customer support portal, too. Clients may access that through our Help menu then "Take me to my Support Center."

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have questions.

~Joe

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by Rod Cortez

Hi all,

I was looking to test drive Infusionsoft since I noticed a few marketers switch to it (besides, I like to test things). But I noticed one feature it had that I was not crazy about. I unsubscribed from a newsletter powered by Infusionsoft and after I unsubscribed, it then asked me if I wanted to report the e-mail as spam. It was a pop-up box that asked the question and there were two big buttons: one that said "yes" and one that said "no".

I would think this makes it way too easy for unsubscribes to report an opt-in e-mail as spam.

If you use Infusionsoft (or know someone who does) and you (they) used to use Aweber, Getresponse, Constant Contact or some other autoresponder have you noticed any increase / decrease in spam complaints? Or is it pretty much the same?

I realize it's not an apples to apples comparison, but my focus here is to try and see if people have noticed any change in spam complaints when they switched to Infusionsoft.

Thank you in advance.

RoD "Where's-My-444oz-Coffee-Mug?" Cortez

I noticed the exact same thing - it makes no sense whatsoever.

Personally, I think Infusionsoft is overrated but I will say that they've done a good job of positioning the perceived value and higher price.

[denniston]

Why on earth would someone spend $5000+, much less even a few hundred dollars, for an email marketing software "setup" fee? Can someone who's done so please explain their line of thinking to me?

[ExRat]

Hi Denniston,

With respect -

Why on earth would someone spend $5000+, much less even a few hundred dollars, for an email marketing software "setup" fee? Can someone who's done so please explain their line of thinking to me?

The cat's out of the bag... 100% email deliverability IS possible (see sig link).

Can you explain your line of thinking to us?

You pop in, bump the thread, offer no valuable comment on the topic at hand, but expose the fact that you are only posting simply to point to your sig file.

The cat's staying in the bag where it belongs, if that is the best you can manage.

Here's a trick - post something useful and add value, don't point to your sig, and people might start liking and respecting you and decide that because you're such a great person, your product might be worth a look regardless of the unbelievable sounding hype surrounding it.

Hope this helps.

[denniston]

My line of thinking is that paying too much for something is not warranted unless that "something" offers something which cannot be purchased for the same amount elsewhere.

I was not posting to simply point to my sig file, I am however VERY proud to share with others that 100% deliverability CAN BE accomplished by merely doing the right things and following industry best practices.

I appreciate your tip about posting something useful with value but do not appreciate the tone of your message. Yes, I am new here and plan to provide as much value as time allows me. Seeing you have made 6,515 posts, I value your input highly and respect the time you took to make a reply.

Here's some value...

To increase the deliverability of your email marketing campaigns, segment your mailings. Send the opt-in validation email from one IP and the follow-up sequence of messages from a different IP. Next, establish feedback loops (FBLs) with the leading ISPs and email providers who offer a FBL service. Monitor the complaints you receive from the FBLs and take immediate action to resolve the problem that is causing the complaints... in most cases, it is merely sending the wrong type of content to the wrong list(s).

Is this better Roger?

[ExRat]

Hi Denniston,

Is this better Roger?

That's ideal, thankyou.

in most cases, it is merely sending the wrong type of content to the wrong list(s)

I see many people making this mistake, and going back on their word on the opt-in page (if I'm understnding you correctly).

This is not an area of expertise for me, could you please explain why this part makes a big difference? I've tried to work it out but the answer is eluding me -

Send the opt-in validation email from one IP and the follow-up sequence of messages from a different IP

[denniston]

Hey Roger,

Yes, you are understanding me correctly... if your opt-in form says "Free Gardening Report" then only send "gardening" related content to those who subscribe. You wouldn't, for instance, want to send people on a "gardening" specific list content about say "daytrading".

The reason you want to send the opt-in confirmation request message from a different IP than the IP used to transmit your follow-up emails is because the opt-in confirmation request message will *most* likely generate more spam complaints than the emails you send people once they have confirmed their subscription to your list. For instance, say you tick someone off and they go around entering your email address into every opt-in form they can find. You will most likely mark the resulting messages you receive as spam whereas if you had actually signed up for them yourself, you would not. In short, more complaints = lower deliverability.

[ExRat]

Hi Denniston,

Ah, I see. Thankyou very much.

[Amanda_Davis]

Does anyone know if Infusion "include" anything in their setup fee? Consultancy or anything? Maybe it's just a barrier to entry (which isn't necessarily stupid)

Also, I heard they have a new lower price? Anyone know anything?

[tecHead]

Originally Posted by Amanda_Davis

Does anyone know if Infusion "include" anything in their setup fee? Consultancy or anything? Maybe it's just a barrier to entry (which isn't necessarily stupid)

Also, I heard they have a new lower price? Anyone know anything?

Hi Amanda,

Yes; if you look on their site, they actually provide quite a lot for the initial setup fee. They basically take you by the hand and guide you through the entire set up and training of their software package.

This is necessary because their offering IS pretty unique based on what is available.

I have been working with their platform for a Client and have to say that I'm extremely impressed; (and that's coming from a seasoned programmer).

Their system is one of the 'few' that seem to be (granted still working on perfection of it and hopefully they'll continue to get closer to that perfection) incorporating the concept of Event Based Marketing directly into the software.

The use of "triggers" and "action sets" allows the marketer to automate a great deal of (otherwise grunt work) functionality into their marketing campaigns. This allows the small staffed small business to better compete with the big boys and their deep pockets for far less than what it would actually cost to implement the same without such a system as InfusionSoft.

I LOVE these guys and do NOT say that about much on the Internet.

Hope this helps
Peace, Love & Prosperity...
tecHead