Don't Listen to John Reese

[Scott Ames]

Originally Posted by frankm

I fully expected this newsletter to get a mention in the report...

John Reese (TrafficSecrets.com) - Articles - How *Crap* Can Dramatically Boost Your Profits!

This was was posted in 2003, but it made me laugh:

1. Create and launch crap. 2. Test that crap. 3. Improve that crap. 4. Make money with crap that eventually becomes non-crap

of course John says: Seriously. Don't laugh. This process works. Again and again. It has made me rich..

Sorry.. I did laugh, but I see the truth in it.

[Black Hat Cat]

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Please, be my guest. Remove all your testimonials. Social proof is worthless. And, I love having less competition.

Testimonials will never, ever be worthless. The social proof they decide may not have ever swayed you, but for every one of you there are hundreds who are in doubt when on a sales page. They don't know who you are. Why should they trust you? You're a marketer. But, that other person who bought your product ... and used it ... and benefited from it. That can make all the difference.

Since they shouldn't trust us, why should they trust that we didn't just make up the testimonials?

[MikeRogers]

Originally Posted by Collette

Why would the FTC mess with you unless your claims are outlandish, misleading, exaggerated, or plain unbelievable? Why would you even come under their radar?

You probably won't unless you list hundreds of testimonials on your site.

My point is, you are responsible for everything you publish. The FTC has the ability (and resources) to call you on any publicly made claim; even the claims made by the people giving the testimonials.

If you publish it, you own it.

Look, all I'm saying is that you have to be very careful about what you put in writing for the consumption of the public. If you get into a "war of words" with the government, you are probably going to lose.

What seems reasonable and logical to us often has no voice in a court of law.

[actionplanbiz]

so why is testimonials on a sales letter not good?

[Black Hat Cat]

Why would the FTC mess with you unless your claims are outlandish, misleading, exaggerated, or plain unbelievable?

Because they can. And because the government needs the money. And because, contrary to popular belief, immoral, unethical, and downright criminal behavior isn't limited to the private sector. There are plenty of scammers working in the government too.

[Scott Ames]

Originally Posted by actionplanbiz

so why is testimonials on a sales letter not good?

They is good. It's just that people are afraid of the new FTC rules. (USA) They are not clear enough to avoid confusion.

[Noah Fleming]

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Peter

I think in either instance, it is irresponsible. It will panic newbie marketers, who will be stripping all testimonials off their sites, for no reason whatsoever and to their detriment. I'm shocked that someone of such stature would say something like that.

Agreed. I haven't read this new report so don't quote me on anything. I'm only going by what I've read here.

Much to the dismay of the thousands who follow whatever Reese says as "gospel," these guys have more to lose then most.

Let's be realistic. There has been a LOT of back scratching within testimonials from the inner circles of IM for a long long LONG time. Are we not willing to admit this?

I can think back to many launches and it becomes no wonder that some want those testimonials and case studies to just disappear totally from the internet. How many launches come to mind from the bigger names where the testimonials and case studies certainly weren't "typical results." Think back to the 100k a day launch. I watched nearly every Guru in this biz give this thing a live video testimonial telling me I could literally start earning thousands a day. Typical results? Maybe.

If your testimonials are real and you're not making outrageously outlandish claims then getting rid of them would be a big mistake. Pretty poor advice as far as I'm concerned.

If your testimonials are REAL and ones you've earned through your business and services offered, why would you remove them???

The FTC has already said you would always be asked to comply before being outright sued by them if they had a problem with what you were saying.

No need for everyone to panic. The FTC has made changes for the better. This will clean up IM as far as I'm concerned.

[TelegramSam]

Be careful the FTC don't grab you by the testimonials.

Apparently the FTC are going to ban ALL unapproved testimonials from April 2011.

What you may not realise is that a subsidiary company of the FTC, called FTC Marketing Secrets have some software in beta, which is due to be launched in April 2011.

The beta testers consist of a couple of women's institues and knitting clubs up in Wyoming and a few old geezers down in Georgia.

It is called "Instant Testimonials". All you do is fill in a few missing blanks and it churns out a perfectly formed testimonial as approved by the FTC.

The software costs $1,997 and there is a forced continuity of just $97 a month and each new testimonial it produces costs $497.

They have realised that this will generate more income than just imposing some fines.

Apparently some guy called Reese got them on to the idea.

[Noah Fleming]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

Apparently some guy called Reese got them on to the idea.

I knew there was a catch to all of this.

[Kenneth Fox]

I've seen some interesting points made on this thread but I
still feel it is to premature to assume what will happen.

Anyone giving advice (like John Reese did) should bite their
tongue for a little while until things start to reveal themselves.

There's no reason to start a panic. As long as you have a
legit product or service and any testimonials are from real
people that can be tracked, you have nothing to worry about.

Look at how many TV commercials have these testimonials
on them like Nutri-system and Proactive to name a few.

Again, I think we should all sit back and wait to see the whole
picture, not just the trailer, before we move in haste and do
some things that we could regret later.

[Peter Bestel]

I notice that John has written a clarification of his message.

Apparently when he said, remove ALL testimonials he didn't mean ALL testimonials, just "results-based testimonials".

Income.com Blog

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Peter

I think in either instance, it is irresponsible. It will panic newbie marketers, who will be stripping all testimonials off their sites, for no reason whatsoever and to their detriment. I'm shocked that someone of such stature would say something like that.

Yep, that was my point and I raised this on his blog too. I hope this detraction (or clarification) goes some way to addressing this problem.

[Mike Hersh]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

I read the FTC guidelines, and I think 'vanity' products might have it easier than many others. In one of the examples, they made the distinction between statements of fact and statements of opinion. They also addressed what might constitute and expert endorsement vs. a simple statement of opinion.

If you have Joan Soccermom saying "I used Miracle Goop and I could see a difference in my skin," that's an opinion, with no need for documentation.

If you have Dr. Joan Soccermom, dermatologist, make the same statement you will need to back it up - what was the difference, how was it measured, etc. The "average user" would ascribe more weight to an endorsement from a dermatologist's opinion than that of a more general buyer.

Similarly, if you give Mrs. Soccermom a sample of your Miracle Goop for the purpose of getting her opinion, all you have to do is say so - "We stopped Joan Soccermom in the store today, and asked her to try new Miracle Goop. Here's what she had to say..."

The best explanation I got for the FTC until now.

I totally agree with you, all you have to do is be legit, and I believe that most of us already are.

We don't need to get scared from such a thing... If you're legit than you're safe.

Mike G

[Lance K]

Jonh Reese has a lot of business expertise to draw from. So I mean no disrespect to John, but...

Unless John Reese is your attorney, business partner, or paid consultant, who gives a damn what he thinks about how/if you should use testimonials?

[KevinDasilva]

Hey Guys,

Awesome post.

I think that the problem here is NOT what they "average" user will get for results... Is that the "average" user is going to buy it and stick it on a shelf somewhere.

So if your going to be honest you would have to say that the average user will get NO RESULTS because they never even tried it. Even though it might work but you would have to find somoene who does apply what they learn, and thats the person with the so called "inflated results"...

The results are not "inflated" that person just actually did what they were told to do.

This sucks and I don't think this ANYTHING AT ALL to do with "protecting the consumer". I think the boys in the Washignton decided they needed a way to "take their piece" from the only place money is being made which is the internet.

C'mon if you see a product where someone lost 950 pounds do you really need a * saying that these results are not typical? This is ridiclous. And like I said I think its their way of taking from us to use on thir crazy spending!

But hey what do I know...

For me I will stick with providing massive value BEFORE the sale so that testimonials will not have such an effect.

~Kevin

[nicholasb]

honestly I think he created this report to scare people out of the business, it's nothing but negative stories.

I already talked to my lawer and I know exactly how to stay in compliance with the ftc, I dont plan on looking for a loophole, I am gonna stay in compliance.

So many people are gonna run and hide, which makes it easier for the honest ans trati forward marketers to make more money

I was already letting people know I was an affiliate marketer way before this ftc thing and it actually works to my advantage

[Peter Bestel]

Originally Posted by Lance K

Jonh Reese has a lot of business expertise to draw from. So I mean no disrespect to John, but...

Unless John Reese is your attorney, business partner, or paid consultant, who gives a damn what he thinks about how/if you should use testimonials?

That's an excellent point and one that 'should' be listened to - it's just a shame you and I don't have the influence that John does.

Go look at the responses on his blog. Even before he clarified his statement, people were falling over themselves to agree.

On a public forum like this, on a public forum like his blog, there's a responsibility of those who are listened to to not give duff advice, don't you think?

Peter

[Charann Miller]

It'll be interesting to see how this new FTC ruling will effect advertisers across the board and how they integrate and implement the necessary changes, especially in terms of the infomercial companies with their latest gadgets and how they plan to incorporate their testimonials.

I mean it just wouldn't be the same trying to sell a weight loss product without any proof or by mentioning the typical results one might expect to get. Be very interesting to see how it's pulled off. Watch and learn.

[markshields]

There is a valid point in this true enough as most testimonials on the internet have no backup because they tend to be false so unless their 100 percent solid I would follow the advice and remove them

[Topher Walker]

If I was Reese ie big name in the industry, obviously had the funds to pay any fines the FTC imposed so would be more likely to come after me, had recently done videos with a someone the FTC had targated before (Kern) and also with an internationally known speaker (Tony Robbins), thought the FTC might be looking to target the industry I was in and thought that they'd brought in new guidelines about testimonials that was purposly vauge enough to trap people...

and on top of that could still make a ton of money without testimonials (which I'm sure Reese is more than capable of)...

yeah, I'd dump testominonals for a while until it blew over too!

[davidmerrick]

The FTC is just against being deceptive. They always have been, it's just now it's officially being written down. It's not gonna change a whole lot, despite what people say. Besides, there's no way they could regulate every affiliate marketer on the internet.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Topher Walker

If I was Reese ie big name in the industry, obviously had the funds to pay any fines the FTC imposed so would be more likely to come after me, had recently done videos with a someone the FTC had targated before (Kern) and also with an internationally known speaker (Tony Robbins), thought the FTC might be looking to target the industry I was in and thought that they'd brought in new guidelines about testimonials that was purposly vauge enough to trap people...

and on top of that could still make a ton of money without testimonials (which I'm sure Reese is more than capable of)...

yeah, I'd dump testominonals for a while until it blew over too!

Just as a BTW, Robbins has been slapped by the FTC in the past as well (1995) - Robbins Research International, Inc.

But coming back to the subject of the thread - look...there are "testimonials" and there are "testimonials". I've always maintained that a testimonial from "Jo Blow - New Jersey" is next to useless. The testimonial needs to be real. You need to be able to at least go to a site - or better still - a testimonial post on a site to verify it. And you can avoid the outlandish claims - monetary or otherwise. All the testimonial needs to say is something like "I used this product and found it great. Contact me and I'll tell you more". It's still powerful don't you think? But the bottom line is - it has to be real. I take absolutely no notice of testimonials that aren't or can't be verified. And I'm betting you do too.

Disclosure: talking of "needs to be real" - that mugshot of mine is 20 years old. Taken in a brand-new FM radio station after I'd written and produced twenty-three 30 second spots in one 12 hour day. I'm trying to find a recent one that doesn't frighten young children and Internet Marketers.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by nicholasb

I already talked to my lawer and I know exactly how to stay in compliance with the ftc, I dont plan on looking for a loophole, I am gonna stay in compliance.

Nick, that IS the ultimate loophole...

[Gene Pimentel]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

Be careful the FTC don't grab you by the testimonials.

The best line in this entire thread! LOL

[LB]

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Steve:

The PDF download is on a blog: Internet Marketing 2010: The Road Ahead

and yes, it is very hard to believe because it doesn't make any sense. Reese goes further and states "you can still be very successful without testimonials."

He is conclusively saying remove ALL testimonials.

Not just false testimonials. Not just overhyped testimonials. Not just unproven testimonials.

As I said: worst marketing advice of the year. I'm guessing Reese will rethink this and come back with something more rational.

As an attorney, let me say there are are infinite number of ways to handle the issue depending on the situation. It can be as easy as: "While we don't know what results all of our customers have achieved, here are some comments, feedback, and reviews we have received ... A complete list can be found here ..."

One thing is for certain: not only will testimonials not be removed from my websites, but more are in the process of being added.

Could you clarify this point? Is this not the same as the old "results not typical"?

My reading of the FTC guidelines seem to indicate that if you use any results in your testimonials then you have to also provide generally expected results, not just a disclaimer or even a disclosure of bad comments, etc. but an actual generally expected outcome for the typical consumer.

Perhaps you could give us an example of how you recommend using testimonials from this point on?

[scrofford]

Originally Posted by kindsvater

I'm reading Reese's 'Internet Marketing 2010 The Road Ahead' - which in large part is an account of personal failures and lessons that may be learned.

But then he says in reference to the new FTC guidelines: "REMOVE ALL TESTIMONIALS FROM YOUR MARKETING."

That is, in all seriousness, the worst marketing advice of the year.

Testimonials should be one of the most IMPORTANT aspects of your marketing. But don't take my word for it: Kennedy, Cialdini, etc.

This is what social media is all about - getting trusted recommendations.

The FTC is NOT against testimonials. It is concerned with fraud. Just more specific guidelines for fraudulent activity the FTC always could have pursued.

As I said in a prior post on the topic, if you have 10,000 buyers of an IM product and no one makes more than $250, but 1 guy makes $500,000, using the one $500,000 testimonial as the basis for getting new buyers is clearly deceptive. But everyone already knew that.

Here's my prediction for 2010 and beyond:

Testimonials will continue to be important, will appear on more and more websites, and yes, even John Reese will be using them.

After all, that is what Reese is doing when he pimps IM product after IM product. Using himself as a testimonial, a trusted resource, so he can make some affiliate cash.

Frank Kern doesn't use testimonials much either. He says if your sales copy is good then there is no need.

[John_Reese]

For anyone still misunderstanding what I said, allow me to clarify please...

The "REMOVE ALL TESTIMONIALS" comment was in the context of discussing the new FTC guidelines related to using results in your marketing.

I should have clarified my statement because I wasn't referring to testimonials in the sense of, "This is a great product. I highly recommend it to others just getting started" etc. etc.

I meant SUCCESS STORIES. The testimonials that the FTC is targeting are the RESULTS-BASED ones.

According to their crazy new guidelines you can't use any testimonial that states a result unless that result is typical. So if someone says "I made $10 my first week after reading your ebook" yet the average or "typical" person that buys your ebook doesn't make $10 in their first week, then you can't use that testimonial in your marketing.

The legal gray area is what does "typical" mean? The average person that buys the product? The average person that buys that product and takes action?

The feedback I've heard about this new guideline from an FTC attorney (for any make money products) is to have NO INCOME CLAIMS at all. So that would include any testimonials that state anything about money they made.

Sorry for the confusion about my "remove all testimonials" statement.

-John Reese

[Mike Anthony]

I have no problem with the statement even more so now that it has been clarified. People need to understand who is being targeted here. I guarantee you this will fall more on IM gurus (and therefore the reactions).

I don't think for a moment that Pepsi will show a guy with a bunch of girls hanging on to him and have to show proof of reasonable expected results. Making money ads are the focus. Reese and Kern have ever right to feel some paranoia. They ARE in the center of the bullseye.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by MikeRogers

...My point is, you are responsible for everything you publish. The FTC has the ability (and resources) to call you on any publicly made claim; even the claims made by the people giving the testimonials.

If you publish it, you own it.

Look, all I'm saying is that you have to be very careful about what you put in writing for the consumption of the public. If you get into a "war of words" with the government, you are probably going to lose.

What seems reasonable and logical to us often has no voice in a court of law.

Totally agree with you, Mike. But this has always been the case with the FTC. If you came up on their radar, and they had reason to believe that your claims were false, they'd be on you like fleas on a Bengali street dog.

So what has changed? Nada, as far as I can see. This latest ruling is just a shot across the bow announcing that the FTC intends to enforce what they've been letting slip.

Yeah, it's meant to cause panic. But only to those who've been playing loose and fast - and unethically.

[Dennis-White]

Hmm.... im up in the air about this

[Ricardo-Acosta]

The title was a pretty bold statement

thanks for clearing it up, JR. I was about to opt out of all your sites.......Just kidding.

For anyone still misunderstanding what I said, allow me to clarify please...

The "REMOVE ALL TESTIMONIALS" comment was in the context of discussing the new FTC guidelines related to using results in your marketing.

I should have clarified my statement because I wasn't referring to testimonials in the sense of, "This is a great product. I highly recommend it to others just getting started" etc. etc.

I meant SUCCESS STORIES. The testimonials that the FTC is targeting are the RESULTS-BASED ones.

According to their crazy new guidelines you can't use any testimonial that states a result unless that result is typical. So if someone says "I made $10 my first week after reading your ebook" yet the average or "typical" person that buys your ebook doesn't make $10 in their first week, then you can't use that testimonial in your marketing.

The legal gray area is what does "typical" mean? The average person that buys the product? The average person that buys that product and takes action?

The feedback I've heard about this new guideline from an FTC attorney (for any make money products) is to have NO INCOME CLAIMS at all. So that would include any testimonials that state anything about money they made.

Sorry for the confusion about my "remove all testimonials" statement.