I Just Lost $5k! - Help & Advise Wanted

[chersern]

Dear fellow warriors,

I engaged an internet marketing firm in May to help improve my landing page conversion for a fee of $5k. The agreement was to improve the conversion by a minimum of 20% within 90 days failing which they would offer me a full refund.

Till September, they have not managed to improve the conversion a single bit (as measured by Google Website Optmizer). In fact, my original design outperformed all their 5 designs!

So I asked for my money back repeatedly but they are not honoring the refund. Their excuse is that they do not trust the Google Report (this is ridiculous as they were the one who set the Experiment and all along throughout the few months we have been testing based on that!). So the only thing to prove is the merchant account sales (if there were conversion improvement there should be some sales increase). I suggested that they check the sales and give me a refund if there's no evidence of increase. Again, they refused and since then, they have not responded to any of my mails.

I have also written to 2CheckOut but they have repeatedly asked me to resolve this with them as this is relatively more complicated than physical goods.

What can I do?

Thanks
John

[ryanman]

If it's not 6 months yet you can call your credit card company and ask for a charge back.

[Tsnyder]

Distance is a big factor... you didn't tell us where you are
located vs where they are located.

If they're not located in your vicinity your options are limited
unless, as suggested above, you can do a credit card charge back.

Tsnyder

[mark z]

How did you find them? Directly or by some third party (like freelance site or so)?
Did you signed any contract with them? Is there any refund offer?
Without having any contract signed it would be not easy to claim any refunds.
I suggest you to consult legal expert regarding whole situation and further actions.

[thmgoodw]

I think this is a lesson for everyone. If you are going to be shelling serious $$$ out for work, you need to make sure that all contingencies are laid out in the written agreement. I am shocked that the mode of measuring whether or not there was improvement was not put into the agreement.

Originally Posted by chersern

Dear fellow warriors,

I engaged an internet marketing firm in May to help improve my landing page conversion for a fee of $5k. The agreement was to improve the conversion by a minimum of 20% within 90 days failing which they would offer me a full refund.

Till September, they have not managed to improve the conversion a single bit (as measured by Google Website Optmizer). In fact, my original design outperformed all their 5 designs!

So I asked for my money back repeatedly but they are not honoring the refund. Their excuse is that they do not trust the Google Report (this is ridiculous as they were the one who set the Experiment and all along throughout the few months we have been testing based on that!). So the only thing to prove is the merchant account sales (if there were conversion improvement there should be some sales increase). I suggested that they check the sales and give me a refund if there's no evidence of increase. Again, they refused and since then, they have not responded to any of my mails.

I have also written to 2CheckOut but they have repeatedly asked me to resolve this with them as this is relatively more complicated than physical goods.

What can I do?

Thanks
John

[Adeel_Chowdhry]

Did they state how they were going to improve the conversions?

Did they say they would be getting traffic to the website in order for them to test the conversions too?

Adeel

ps. since 6 months have passed you probably wont be able to get a refund (they probably already knew that!).

[Charann Miller]

File a complaint with your credit card company, have all information, correspondance, emails at hand for supporting evidence then send in copies with your complaint, every scrap of evidence helps.

Names, dates, who was involved, what services and outcomes were expected.

Then show proof. Take screenshots of your Google account and the resulting conversions and explain what it means, your bank won't have a clue so you have to explain the results that were expected and HOW the results didn't measure up to what was promised.

Also explain that part of the agreement was that you would be refunded if they did not meet those targets, in your case, the 20% improvement in conversions they so they need to honor their refund policy as was clearly stated from the beginning.

And in future, trust yourself, don't hand over your hard earned money, you outperformed them, that money would have done better in your pocket upscaling your own efforts.

Hope this helps.

[Donnie]

I think this is a lesson for everyone. If you are going to be shelling serious $$$ out for work, you need to make sure that all contingencies are laid out in the written agreement. I am shocked that the mode of measuring whether or not there was improvement was not put into the agreement.

I strongly agree with this. I would also request that a minimum of 50% of the funds be held in an escrow account. I think an honorable business/person would comply if they truly believed in their work.

[J smith]

I'll agree with both lesson learned and try to contact your credit card and see if you can file a complaint/refund with them.

But it is a lesson learned, if you are going to pay a lot of money (or ask to be paid) you better have all the details in there. it's kind of silly, but if your contract with them doesn't specify how conversion (and improvement to it) is measured, they can probably claim just about anything they want.

[actionplanbiz]

lash out on the company on video and make it go viral.

someone did that to bank of America.. and it worked.

[Paxton]

Not saying this will definitely work, but it worked for me in a similar situation.

First off you need to get recorded hard copies of your refund request exchanged (if you haven't already).

By recorded hard copy I mean something they have to sign to receive. Send it by FedEx or DHL, whatever. Something that needs to be signed for in the presence of a Third Party (in this case the courier).

Your request should include any copies of and all prior communications, reasons for refund request, anything that makes your case.

Include a CC reference to your bank or credit card company. Send the exact same information to your bank, referencing a CC to the SEO company.

Include a reference to your intention to initiate charge-back by a certain date unless the refund is settled or part settled (as was the case with my particular grievance.)

You need them to acknowledge the fact that there is a grievance and that this has gone beyond exchanging emails. The involvement of your bank shows your commitment to pursuing this outside of the direct link between customer - service provider.

Getting them to respond to a recorded communication is the first step in what may well be a long and drawn out process.

[sandesh_007]

May i know what the name of that internet marketing firm. Also, i think we should not pay any upfront cash to such firms and they should be paid only on performance basis.

I wonder if there are any firms who work on these conditions.

[Jacobs22]

write to them for a refund three times and give no delay between the 3 days they should receive it one after another, this people don't really know but it worked for me when you tell 2checkout you have sent them 3 requests to refund then it gets serious then they have to take care of it because it is the law now. If they are located somewhere like in India it would be impossible without 2checkout's help. If you have your credit card linked to 2CO then you can deal with your credit card company which is even better if they are located somewhere like in India. Just my 2 cents.

[jamesburchill]

These types of deals hardly ever turn out well, specially since there is also the matter of "quantum meruit" - check out the Wiki link for more info on what this is and why it means you'll most likely NOT get your money back (although I hope you do!)

Good luck.

[InternetMarketingIQ]

If you have it in writing that they are to perform certain services and meet certain goals and they do not meet them and you can prove it and they are in your same state. Then this is a good time to take them to small claims court.

Otherwise if you can't prove it and you don't have it in writing you are pretty much out of luck.

[DogScout]

I saw this on a blog today
"10% of SEO companies perform SEO
100% of SEO companies call themselves SEO companies."

I am dealing with a company that promised coaching. the money is about the same. At every turn they have created a problem and a policy out of thin air to avoid living up to their deal (which they out and out lied at what it contained.)

I am probably screwed unless I want to package up all my emails and recordings of phone conversations, recordings of webinars that taught blacK hat techniques and send it all to an FTC investigator I know. At the end of the day, I still won't see my money. Is it worth it? This time, to me, no. It is just a very expensive lesson (another one).

[iplusgold]

Originally Posted by jamesburchill

These types of deals hardly ever turn out well, specially since there is also the matter of "quantum meruit" - check out the Wiki link for more info on what this is and why it means you'll most likely NOT get your money back (although I hope you do!)

Good luck.

This is spot on...you should really have a look at the wiki article and see if you can apply it to your situation...now obviously there is a specific performance issue that needs to be taken into consideration and also what was potentially included in the express contract.

Just a thought, and you might be able to answer this james...but ina contract can you explicitly state that Quantum Meruit will not apply in the event of contract termination or some such clause? Or maybe the defendent would agree to indemnify you against any claim of Quantum Meruit??

[JeffLam]

Although this may seem like harping on an issue that was already done, I honestly believe and advise that for outsourcing always use escrow services (if the sum of the fees are large amount, ie, >$1000)

OR

Pay the outsourcer the fees AFTER results are obtained. A professional will definitely be agreeable to such a contract (or perhaps a deposit of 25%, etc etc).

Totally agreed with Donnie here.

Jeff

[chersern]

Thanks guys for all your advice. Much appreciated.

I am based in Singapore/ Malaysia and the internet marketing company operate in Serbia and the US. We have a written agreement explicitly stating that there must be 20% sales conversion improvement, otherwise there would be a full refund. The fact is there is no sales improvement as measured by Google Website Optimizer report and 2CheckOut Sales Report.

I have contacted 2CheckOut but they repeatedly asked me to resolve with The Supplier as it's "complicated." I think the only solution I have now is to ask for a refund from my bank. Is there an authority in the US I can report to like FTC?

Thanks
John

[Richlion]

First, you have to move on and don't dewell on this, as bad as it is. then go to elance.com and find someone there. I'm writing this, because I, too lost 5k but it was not in dollars it was in Cyprus pounds, which was about $10k at the time. it was some jerk from Romania.
when you look for someone from elance, find someone from your own country even though you have to pay more. at least you can do some background checks before you send a dime.

[sbucciarel]

If you're going to spend thousands for anything you should have a contract that spells out all the terms, but if the company is not located in the same country as you, good luck enforcing it.

In addition, you should have put an initial deposit on the project with the progress payments clearly spelled out in the contract and no payments are made until the terms have been met for each progress payment.

[ivana]

Hm, you actually paid that much to have them increase conversions? If you are product owner, you will know what your customers wants a lot better than anyone else, and with use of few good software, you could have split tested this by yourself.

[Mr Money Maker]

I never trust others with my money like that, I figure it;s far better to learn the skills and do it myself. Anyways wish you the best..sorry to hear you lost money.

[RentItNow]

Lawyer letter with copy of small claims papers attached saying you will file within 48 hours unless a certified check is delivered. Follow through if you have to with claim. Only way to do it. It will attached to their business/assets.