Who thinks mind control is good?

[Greg guitar]

Let me see if I can capture (a more honest version of) the essence of what I'm seeing touted as a revolutionary new form of marketing, using "mind control" by a few people on this forum:

Attention marketers: Free Will is overrated and old school: Mind Control is the future!

Are you still playing that tired old persuasion game? Are you trying to appeal to your buyers with outdated methods that seek to merely "influence" people's buying decisions?

You're living in the past! You are simply giving the prospect far too much credit by letting them make decisions. In the future, all the best marketers will be using powerful, secret manipulation techniques that get directly inside the mind of the prospect, hijacking their power of decision, and literally forcing them to buy.

This is not unethical, because, after all, who better to decide what's best for people than a bunch of ambitous strangers armed with secret "emotional trigger words", designed to seperate them from their money? (oh yes, and who are also selling some wonderful stuff which of course, justifies the manipulations...yada yada yada)

Can't you taste the power, the glory, the ultimate marketing success?! Too long have we let the people decide how to spend their own money; merely seeking to persuade them to decide to buy from us! It's time to adopt the new contemporary, contemptuous attitudes toward the mark...er, prospect. Freedom and dignity are mere quaint ideas from the past.

Aren't you tired of being in the "one down" position of having to rely on the customer to decide if they want what you have? With the new, mind control marketing, prospects will by like puppets, with you pulling the strings.



I wouldn't bother to address this topic, if it weren't for the rather disappointing response these ideas are getting. Those who are critical of the idea generally restrict themselves to questions of it's effectiveness and tactical issues. Very few people seem concerned at what I view as the quite obvious moral problems with it.

I do agree with the skeptics that it is next to impossible to "control" someone else's mind with the language you use in your copy. Obviously it's possible to evoke certain feelings, that might make your benefits pop more, but that's a long way from mind control.

The exception is when an individual has been traumatized in a way that is understood by the marketer, and shame on any marketer that would seek to profit from such trauma.

My point is, human greed is a force in all of us, but it should always take a backseat to maintaining high moral standards. The only mind anybody has any business seeking to "control" is one's own. There is plenty of money to be made without seeking to deprive people of the power to make a decision.

[JazzOscar]

Maybe the mind control trend is just the consequence of products no longer being good enough to be an obvious buy by themselves?

[Norma Holt]

Greg guitar
My point is, human greed is a force in all of us, but it should always take a backseat to maintaining high moral standards. The only mind anybody has any business seeking to "control" is one's own. There is plenty of money to be made without seeking to deprive people of the power to make a decision.

Sorry to disagree with you after that long explanation but I do not possess the force of greed. I cannot take without giving something of equal value and I cannot lie to anyone to save my life. It is not in me to want to be wealthy but to help anyone and everyone who needs it.

[Mark McClure]

I, for one, welcome our new mind control overlords ;-)

[acrasial]

If you can control your own mind, and not let it wander ever, then for sure it's good, and in fact great.

Imagine being so dedicated and concentrated on your goal, that absolutely nothing else came into your mind ever in the process, and you pretty much never saw failure, even if it was dead staring you in the face.

For some people, this may be needed anyways. I was recently presented with an idea to help people cope with certain things, which may often be hard for them normally. In this matter as well, it may be very useful and helpful to people.

As for the sales matter, I guess it depends on what each person considers ethical for them, as some may consider it unethical. Whatever works for you, works right? Why change it to a plan which wouldn't work?

If using this technique works, then by all means go for it, as you are not literally grabbing people by the hand and forcing them to do something. Really at the end of the day, it's still the customer's decision.

Some even recognize the tactics being used on them to market things, but still buy the product anyways? Why? Well maybe they were an informed buyer, or simply just wanted it regardless.

[charlesburke]

Before I can even get to the morality question, I have difficulty believing it's that all-fired effective. Y'know, this sounds like yet another of those puffed-up labels - big-sounding and overhyped -, that are stuck on anemic, pedestrian products which would barely stand on their own if they had normal naming and positioning.

Maybe I'm just a cynical old fart, but it's been a long time since I believed anybody would be stupid enough to sell anything that amazingly powerful on the open market.

Cheers from warm and smiling Thailand,
Charles

[AJ Silvers]

I'm with acrasial. As a high performance coach my most frequent area of engaging with clients is self discipline and focus. Once these have been mastered (no real short cuts on this one I'm afraid) then almost anything can be achieved.

As for mind control products/threads I have to admit to not having seen them (but I'll go and have a look to see what the fuss is about).

I would like to add that I do have several Persuasion products released and a few more in development (no links here Warriors, this is not a pitch!).

It's my experience that they can be *very* effective. One client of mine implemented a simple emotion based weekly email (selling swimwear via an ecommerce site) and saw their weekly sales spike by £1000 in the 48hrs after the emails went out.

I would say that the right use of persuasive copy / language is always going to be effective. Wether you brand it mind control or just good strong copy :-)

The thing most people do not realise is that you cannot not influence (either your self or someone else).

Every form of communication has an effect (the neat trick is to control the communication to induce a desired thought/emotive response).

Just my digital 2c

AJ

[JohnMcCabe]

Hah! I can control the mind of anyone who reads this reply, even when I'm telling you I'm doing it...

Do not picture a pink elephant.

(You realize that I wanted you to picture a pink elephant, right?)

[acrasial]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Hah! I can control the mind of anyone who reads this reply, even when I'm telling you I'm doing it...

Do not picture a pink elephant.

(You realize that I wanted you to picture a pink elephant, right?)

This one didn't work for me, but maybe that is because I know about it? If someone tells me something like this, I really dont think much of anything at all then. Not even about the thing itself, but rather about the reason behind the person's statement.

But that's just me, someone also told me I think too much anyways.

[mr2020]

How about instead of mind control, start producing something that actually delivers. Not only will people talk about it, they will buy it. That's a novel idea.

How about producing something that appeals to those who want to actually kick ass in life, that's a novel idea too. Screw shortcuts to wealth, develop and produce real wealth for you and for your clients and for their clients.

Look at what manipulation got us in the US. I've been studying elections for a few times around now, pure manipulation, appealing to sloth and greed.

America became great because it was a nation that produced. Internet marketing could become GREAT as well, if more people....

Screw it, I'm done. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, probably can't.

Twenty Twenty

[WillDL]

I'm skeptical about the whole NLP/Mind Control thing because I've yet to see any empirical data that back up the claims.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by acrasial

This one didn't work for me, but maybe that is because I know about it? If someone tells me something like this, I really dont think much of anything at all then. Not even about the thing itself, but rather about the reason behind the person's statement.

But that's just me, someone also told me I think too much anyways.

Maybe "pink elephant" didn't work for you, but something will. Since you know about the trick, it may need a little more skill before you form the picture in your mind. But unless you've come down from another planet, the right trigger will conjure up the image/feeling/memory desired. It's just how we're wired.

[Louise Evans]

Most of these techniques are over-hyped and make promises that cannot be kept.

I've been exploring these techniques since 1996 and they can be applied to marketing, but let me make something clear - you cannot hypnotize anybody to do something against their will - this probably clears up the ethical issues.

What you can do is make somebody "see your point of view" and move them into the right emotional state, good copywriters know how to do this and it's no big secret.. I would say the majority of Warriors already use these techniques.

[Razer Rage]

Quite frankly, I think it's all just hype. But when someone says it's okay to force someone to buy from you...yeah, there are issues with that.

The sad fact is, some people in this world have no morals, and really couldn't care less whether or not they're helping anyone (or hurting anyone). They just want your money.

I would imagine that those who are selling these so-called "mind control" products fall into that category.

@Louise: Your post, and then your signature...can you say "irony"?

[Louise Evans]

Originally Posted by Razer Rage

@Louise: Your post, and then your signature...can you say "irony"?

My WSO explains the limits of hypnosis, it doesn't make false promises

[Razer Rage]

Originally Posted by Louise Evans

My WSO explains the limits of hypnosis, it doesn't make false promises

I just think it's funny, that's all. :P

[Louise Evans]

Most people have a huge misconception about what hynosis is and what it can achieve. The image that stage hypnotist project isn't accurate but I understand why so many are attracted to it and form opinions based on those misconceptions. lol I could seriously talk about this stuff all day but I won't bore you with it.

[sbucciarel]

It's such an obvious scam to sell some mind control techniques that I disregard the topic altogether. I'm sure someone will buy it, but not me. It's the outright lie and deceptive marketing that is unethical to me.

[Jagged]

I'll take "wallet control" over mind control any day of the week...

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Greg guitar

Very few people seem concerned at what I view as the quite obvious moral problems with it.

Are you telling the truth?

Then there is no moral problem. Indeed, if your visitor does not believe the truth, convincing him of the truth is not morally wrong at all - it is a moral imperative.

Of course, you could use the same techniques to convince someone of a lie, which is morally wrong. But that's not the fault of the techniques. It's your fault. You told the lie and convinced your visitor it was the truth.

You can't blame the people who taught the techniques. Indeed, most of them are very clear about the ethical questions of these techniques, and how to use them ethically.

They're also very clear about the limitations of those techniques. I'll point to Louise's WSO specifically, because I have it right here, and it's excellent.

In her signature, you see her talk about hypnotising your visitors. This is true; the WSO does discuss hypnotic techniques. But the conventional view of hypnotism is wrong - hypnotism is not "mind control" in the same sense you seem to think it is. It's just a little nudge. It can't make you do anything you specifically want not to do.

This is subtly different from things you don't want to do. And that's where these "mind control" techniques differ from what you seem to think: the playing field isn't black and white. It's not "yes" or "no" in any definitive way. It's a vast field of "maybe," and using these techniques (whether Louise's, or those from other luminaries in the field) just lets you take a larger chunk of those "maybe" responses over the line into clicking the "buy now" button.

When you actually look at the header of Louise's product, it says "Influence Your Visitors." That's all it is; influence. We all want influence over our visitors. Robert Cialdini literally wrote the book on the subject, and what copywriter hasn't read Cialdini?

In thinking about this, it brought to mind a blog post by Russ Nelson several months ago: "It is NOT MORAL to use violence (or threats of violence) to change the behavior of peaceful people." And I think therein lies the real question; what is violence?

I've tossed that question over the wall to Russ, to see what his thoughts are, but in the meantime I need to think about it myself. I'm not sure where I stand on that. There's this whole school of thought around "aggravate the pain," and I tend to feel that's a little immoral - Perry Marshall has had some strong words with me on that question - because increasing pain seems like it's inherently violent.

I think if you don't struggle with this question, there's probably something wrong with you.

[Daniel E Taylor]

I can tell you from experience because I've sold everything from
$2,000 vacuum cleaners door to door, 1000's of audio courses,
Coaching packages for thousands of dollars... and I will tell you...

You are NEVER going to take over someones mind.

Marketing is really the study of human nature and pyschology (If you didn't know
that).

Here's a secret that may help you guys sell more.

What you are really doing is guiding peoples focus. Because
we can only focus on one thing at a time, when an individual
focuses on something it becomes their entire world.

That is why selling your product on "Features" doesn't work,
and selling them on "benefits" does.

For example when I sold vacuum cleaners most people probably
never even thought about their carpet.

But as I pitched them I put their focus on the carpet and that
became their whole world. So when it was time to buy there was
no "I can't afford it".

Selling/pursuasion is the ART of directing people's focus.

And a good marketer/seller is going to make an individual focus
on many different emotional triggers to get the sale.

For example you may be feeling fine and dandy now, but
If I told you to that a 11 month old was raped and murdered
by her step father today... Brings a feeling of pain to your gut.

But you see how with the power of my words I controlled your
focus and it gave you an emotion.

Now that really didn't happen I made that up (So you can feel better).

The goal is to put their focus on emotional triggers that leads towards
them buying your product.

Don't buy into the whole "Mind Control" crap because it's just hype.

And for anyone think injecting a little pain is "immoral" that's fine,
but I know it's not.

IT's called CONTRAST. You make them feel a lil pain in their gut
that way the pleasure feels 100X better. And since they have that
contrast subconsciouly they think I don't want to feel that pain ever
again, but I sure do love this pleasure... And If I buy this product
I can feel this pleasure all day. Then they buy.

So if you don't ARTFULLY and SKILLFULLY use pain then

1. You aren't that good of a marketer in my eyes

2. Pain is apart of life. To not address it makes you
phoney and selling some type of BS Eutopia dream
to the people.

Just my 2 cents,
Daniel

[Mike Anthony]

Load of nonsense. You can't control minds. You can only appeal to what people already want. Thats the only secret of sales copy and it hasn't been a secret since selling started.

[MichaelHiles]

An old saying goes, "you can't rape the willing".

[nicholasb]

it's hardly revolutionary or new it has been used for hundreds of years, possibly even thousands.

[Greg guitar]

Thanks for the great replies, everyone!

I love that so many Warriors have a great sense of humor, as well as some thought provoking insights.

I agree with several who say the "mind control" salescopy is hype. I also agree that it's immoral to lie in your copy, but there's a fine line between humorous exaggeration and lying.

Frank Kern cracked me up with his sig file that said something like "Sign up to my list and you'll instantly make a billion dollars"; obviously untrue, but he's not trying to deceive anyone, just entertain, and it works!

I also agree that hypnosis is not the same as mind control.

I'm sorry I couldn't find the latest example that triggered my rant, but there certainly was one, where the OP claimed quite seriously to have some esoteric knowledge of a system so powerful that it could literally "force" people to desperately want whatever he's selling without even knowing why. I know it's dumb hype, but also offensive.

The OP struck me as not only childish and silly, but creepy. Perhaps I shouldn't take it seriously, but I find it offensive in the same way that I find the popular internet expression "he totally "owned" you" offensive, because slavery was a reality in my country just a few short generations ago. I don't think it's a point of pride to "own" someone, although it's just an expression; it does have origins.

Talk of "forcing" people to pull out their wallets on your command without knowing why they are practically drooling for your product is not only childish, but speaks of contempt for of your prospects. The fact that some gullible people want to know how to do it suggests they are only in it for the money and would love to exercise the magical power of mind control, if it were possible.

Also, it has a social/historical reality (think of Jim Jones, dictatorships, or CIA black-ops), and even the childish desire some people have to seek power over others is chilling to me. I realize it's generally only been successful with the application of force, drugs, and/or threats, but sometimes people in relationships do it without force, by finding the emotional weaknesses of their partners and exploiting those.

I am not against using emotions to persuade, in fact it's a hallmark of all good salescopy. There are unusual instances where I find triggering distastful (like if a funeral home uses guilt to upsell distraught people by suggesting that love for your dead family member can be quantified by the amount you're willing to fork over).

I'm quoting you Darklock, to clarify: I agree with most of what you said, except regarding what I "seem to think". Maybe I was unclear, but I'm not opposed to hypnosis, nor to Louise's program, nor to people teaching techniques of emotional selling.

I do not equate hypnosis with the "mind control" that the posts I found offensive were describing, and they weren't using that term. I actually think it can be a very exciting and useful tool.

I very much enjoy reading powerful salescopy that gets me excited as I choose to take the ride, and have bought many products largely because of powerful salescopy; but not due to mysterious emotional triggers that caused me to wildly desire the product without knowing why.

To me, powerful salescopy, regardless of how much you dress it up, is always about the benefits. All emotional triggers are based on the prospect imagining what the product will do for her/him (benefits).

Anyway, I hope I haven't beaten the subject to death; just want to reiterate how much I enjoyed all of your responses, so thanks everybody! Gotta love this place!


[QUOTE=CDarklock;1298629]
You can't blame the people who taught the techniques. Indeed, most of them are very clear about the ethical questions of these techniques, and how to use them ethically.

They're also very clear about the limitations of those techniques. I'll point to Louise's WSO specifically, because I have it right here, and it's excellent.

In her signature, you see her talk about hypnotising your visitors. This is true; the WSO does discuss hypnotic techniques. But the conventional view of hypnotism is wrong - hypnotism is not "mind control" in the same sense you seem to think it is. It's just a little nudge. It can't make you do anything you specifically want not to do.

This is subtly different from things you don't want to do. And that's where these "mind control" techniques differ from what you seem to think: the playing field isn't black and white. It's not "yes" or "no" in any definitive way. It's a vast field of "maybe," and using these techniques (whether Louise's, or those from other luminaries in the field) just lets you take a larger chunk of those "maybe" responses over the line into clicking the "buy now" button.

QUOTE]

[Cecille20]

I wanna share this

"We can use our mind to create the wonderful reality that we desire by forming a clear image of the result that we desire and then expecting it to come true." --Tycho Photiou

And I believe with this.

[travlinguy]

Without force, you can have very little control over someone who thinks for himself.

But just look around at the pop culture that has replaced what was once our society. It doesn't seem that many people bother to think for themselves any more. Consequently, many folks are now trillions of dollars in debt for little more than the appearance of being cool before their peers. Now, that’s mind control.

Touting mind control as a new trend in marketing is nothing more than clever marketing itself. I hardly think it's new. Maybe it's evolving. There is a technique in the field of hypnosis known as conversational hypnosis. It's a strategy using a collection of observations of human behavior gathered over many years. It's sometimes referred to as slight of mouth and has lately been sold as an effective way to seduce the opposite sex.

The appeal is usually to get the girl (or guy) to do what you want, get more sales, respect, etc., using certain emotional triggers. That certainly isn't new stuff. It's what advertisers have been doing since the beginning only now it's being packaged in a shiny new box.

What I find interesting is the promise by an advertiser that a certain set of techniques or strategies will allow the user to control people. It appeals to a base human desire - the lust for power. Now that’s a strong emotional hook. But when you step back and look closely at who really has the power, the advertiser or the individual believing that he can actually ‘control’ others, it’s really kind of funny in a sad way.

[Louise Evans]

Originally Posted by Greg guitar

I'm sorry I couldn't find the latest example that triggered my rant, but there certainly was one, where the OP claimed quite seriously to have some esoteric knowledge of a system so powerful that it could literally "force" people to desperately want whatever he's selling without even knowing why.

I know the thread you mean, I've been looking for it too and can't find it.. I want to continue the debate with the OP. The claims being made were unethical and I suspect also untrue.

The "system" being spoken about was an image flashing for about 2 frames inside an banner advert, and the system was being presented as fact - but the actual evidence to support the theory was based on little more than a well documented hoax conducted in the 1950's.

Besides the obvious ethical implications of using that form of subliminal, the science behind it is stood on very shakey ground, which doesn't seem to stand in the way of some people hyping a system that doesn't work, for profit.

[The Schwa]

Mind control doesn't exist... period

That being said... I have to agree with those who have touted the usefulness of good persuasive copy. I have done a wide variety of things for a living that required persuasion (e.g. in-home sales, tarot readings, MLM, disc jockey, non-profit fundraising, voter registration) and studied propaganda and persuasion in college.

What I have learned is that emotional appeals and misdirection work to a point...

After that ALL appeals come down to one thing: Source Credibility

If you do not come off as credible... nothing you say will be seen as credible either.

There is an incredible amount of scientific research out there. I am actually currently building a video course (in my sig) to teach the science behind persuasion and compliance for those who don't have the background knowledge.

Untold billions have been spent on this research by governments and marketers alike... so why shouldn't the small business owner use them too?

Talk soon!

Peace,
Alan

[Greg guitar]

Originally Posted by The Schwa

Mind control doesn't exist... period

If you had said "mind control in salescopy doesn't exist", I would have agreed. In the real world, there are many examples of it.

In fact, every soldier I know of has had a wide array of mind control techniques (noteably, sleep deprivation, combined with yelling in their faces, forcing them to do pointless work exercises, in some cases hate training, humiliation, etc) practiced on them shortly after induction, to break down individual will, and instill in it's place, absolute obedience. It's called boot camp.

Many cults have practiced mind control, and I assume still do, the most infamous being the Jim Jones Koolaid drinkers.

Less public, but no less real, and perhaps most disturbing, there are unaccountable branches of various governments, including the US CIA, that have ruined an untold number of lives with their mind control experiments. There are leaks that allow chilling glimpses of what's been done, for those who care to check the public record, but for the most part we remain in the dark.

So mind control absolutely exists, but I seriously doubt you could do it with salescopy alone. It requires much more malignant tactics than you can accomplish with words alone.

[Intrepreneur]

One thing is that every day we naturally and unconciously plan to control the mind of another.. it's a natural life occurunce and if you want to put it sensibly.. we communicate in order to control the mind of another (mostly) and a common perception of communication is that communication is basically hypnotism.

Mind control therefore is natural.. you are already a natural born mind controller and that's just life. Though some people can take it to the next level and use suggestion to concioulsy control your mind rather than unconciously.

It comes in many forms, shapes and sizes.. it is not what some people make it out to be.. difficult to do etc.. All it takes is to grab the attention of another and make them interested in what you have to say.

For example if you read a book today and you had waited all week for it to arrive from amazon.com you'd be almost/totally fascinated by the arrival of the book and set into passionately. If the book were to suggest that taking a nap would help brainstorm more ideas.. there would be a very good chance you'd go take a nap.

All in all... mind control is natural but to make it work you need connection and status.. It's like the one who cannot be hypnotised.. the non believer versus the beleiver.. The beleiver goes under within minutes. The beleiver trusts the hypnotist and belives he can do it, the non beliver doesn't trust nor belive it's possible.

So without trust or extreme want of something to be true from the person to be controlled.. mind control is powerless.

[St Croix]

Yes I am a fan and I will share my secret with you.

Instructions:

Right click image, save as and insert into sales page. This converts like you would not believe.



Happy marketing.

[Lyn Woodring]

Does mind control exist? In a word yes. Can a person be made to do something against his/her will? According to a quick search on google. Yes.
Someone mentioned about people not thinking much anymore. Since brain research is a hobby of mine, here is a bit of trivia; the same part of the brain that lights when you experience pain is the same area that lights up when you think. Critical thinking hurts!
Our brain is divided into the conscious and subconcious. The messages in the subconcious travel at 100sx the speed of the concious mind. Why? Because the conscious mind has filters.
Brain wave states are divided into 4 main parts, Beta, Alpha, Theta, and Delta. Beta is the alert status that we mostly operate in. It is at Aplha that we start to descend into the subconcious and mind control realm. It is at these lower frequencies that children spend 75% of their time in, until about the age of 6. That is why a child can learn and retain so much so quick. They have no filters! And why we often do things that are not helpful or repeat patterns that are destructive. It's learned programming in many cases from childhood.
Here's two questions to wonder about, "How would you know if you lost your mind," and, "How would you know if your mind is controlled"? The simple answer to both is that you wouldn't know.
There is a following technique, I forget the exact term, that if I remember correctly reflects or follows a rythum. It follows that a stimili that contains a domaint rythum induces the brain into that state. And the lower brainwave states allow for subconcious programming. Preachers and charasmatic speakers are very good at setting this stage.
The human body is very efficent at conserving energy and the brain has its own method with mirror cells. That means you can learn just by watching someone.
Many of you may say that a controlled environment is needed to induce control, such as cults have. I think the key here is "controlled environment" which may need a broader description than a 6'x6' cell or forced constraints.
I wrote a research paper in college that started out being on PC (politically correct) thought but ended being on Cults. There are very specific criteria for defining what a cult is. One that stands for me is a "Zero Tolerance" policy. That one sounds a whole lot like public school policies to me.
I have wondered what would induce a civilized society to commit and condone the acts of Hitler during WW11. What caused children to spy on their parents. An example that I read about in today's society was from the UK, I believe. The exact details escape me but what I remember is children were turning in people that wasn't conserving energy.
Below I am including excerpts from purported CIA documents that demonstrate that indeed individuals can indeed to be controlled to act against their will.


"P. Janet asked a “deeply hypnotized female to commit several murders before a distinguished group of judges, stabbing some victims with rubber daggers and poisoning others with sugar tablets.” The subject did all these without hesitation. [30] MC 160"

A declassified CIA document [8] “Hypnotic Experimentation and Research, 10 February 1954” describes a simulation of relevance to the creation of unsuspecting assassins: “Miss [deleted] was instructed (having previously expressed a fear of firearms in any fashion) that she would use every method at her disposal to awaken Miss [deleted] (now in a deep hypnotic sleep) and failing this, she would pick up a pistol nearby and fire it at Miss [deleted]. She was instructed that her rage would be so great that she would not hesitate to “kill” [deleted] for failing to awaken. Miss [deleted] carried out these suggestions to the letter including firing the (unloaded) gun at [deleted] and then proceeding to fall into a deep sleep. Both were awakened and expressed complete amnesia for the entire sequence. Miss [deleted] was again handed the gun, which she refused (in an awakened state) to pick up or accept from the operator. She expressed absolute denial that the foregoing sequence had happened.” BB 36, 37

An 11-year old boy underwent a partial change of identity upon remote stimulation of his brain electrode: “Electrical stimulation of the superior temporal convolution induced confusion about his sexual identity. These effects were specific, reliable, and statistically significant. For example, the patient said, 'I was thinking whether I was a boy or a girl,' and 'I’d like to be a girl.'" After one of the stimulations the patient suddenly began to discuss his desire to marry the male interviewer. Temporal-lobe stimulation produced in another patient open manifestations and declarations of pleasure, accompanied by giggles and joking with the therapist. In two adult female patients stimulation of the same region was followed by discussion of marriage and expression of a wish to marry the therapist. [64] BB 88, 89

The above examples doesn't describe the conditions used to hypotize these people but I also include below another excerpt that seems to indicate that these trances can be induced non-locally.

The evidence in hand suggests that the technology to produce ‘voices in the head’ does exist. The Department of Defense has already acquired the technology to alter consciousness through various projects and programs. A patent discusses methods and system for altering consciousness. The abstract from once such program states: “Researchers have devised a variety of systems for stimulating the brain to exhibit specific brain wave rhythms and thereby alter the state of consciousness of the individual subject.” [77] Silent subliminal messages [were] “used throughout Operation Desert Storm (Iraq) quite successfully.” [78] MC 203, 204

A US State Department report suggested it was possible to induce a heart attack in a person from a distance with radar. [79] MC 172

By 1974, Stanford Research Institute had developed a computer system capable of reading a person’s mind by correlating the brain waves of subjects on an electroencephalograph with specific commands. [80] The concept of mind-reading computers is no longer science fiction. Neither is their use by Big Brotherly governments. Major Edward Dames of Psi-Tech said in April 1995 on NBC’s The Other Side program: “The US government has an electronic device which could implant thoughts in people.” Dames would not comment any further. MC 172
The latest development in the technology of induced fear and mind control is the cloning of the human EEG or brain waves of any targeted victim, or indeed groups. With the use of powerful computers, segments of human emotions which include anger, anxiety, sadness, fear, embarrassment, jealousy, resentment, shame, and terror, have been identified and isolated within the EEG signals as ‘emotion signature clusters.’ Their relevant frequencies and amplitudes have been measured. Then the very frequency/amplitude cluster is synthesized and stored on another computer. Each one of these negative emotions is separately tagged. They are then placed on the Silent Sound carrier frequencies and could silently trigger the occurrence of the same basic emotion in another human being. MC 205

[zapseo]

while that looks a little bit like a blog post or a previously written article, it's good info.

Where does this fact come from:

The messages in the subconcious travel at 100sx the speed of the concious mind.

As for, "does mind control exist" -- on some people for some things.

find a copy of Derren Brown's "The Heist" to see how effective subliminal influence can be.

Live JoyFully!

Judy

[Kay King]

I can't even control my own mind half the time - if anyone else thinks they can do it, more power to them!

[Greg guitar]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I can't even control my own mind half the time - if anyone else thinks they can do it, more power to them!

To control one's own mind is, in my view a lofty and worthy goal for a lifetime. There is a famous suggestion by a Zen writer along the lines of it being a miracle for a person to achieve 30 seconds of concentration on a single thought with no other distracting thoughts. Sounds amazing, but try it; it's incredibly hard even for 10 seconds.

Some zen writers have called the pursuit, "taming the monkey mind". It's rarely still, and some think that a moment of stillness would totally change your life. I don't know, because I doubt I've ever had a moment of mental stillness; unconsciousness, yes, but that isn't the same thing.

So you aren't alone in not having control of your own mind; that's a rare thing indeed, but I think it is exactly the reason we are so suggestable (some more than others). One of the reasons for meditation is to take control of your mind away from others, as much as possible.

[JohnMcCabe]

I had a conversation with a monk once, and one of the things he asked was how long I could concentrate on one thing, giving it my whole attention.

I told him that I could focus like that for a couple of hours at a time. He laughed and told me that after 30+ years of meditation, his personal best was 4 seconds.

He asked me to close my eyes and picture perfect blackness, punctuated only by a pure white, tapered candle. I was to concentrate on the flame burning at the top of the candle.

After 30 seconds, he asked me how I did. Great, I told him.

Did the candle flicker?, he asked. Yes, I told him.

The flicker was caused by the breeze created by my break in concentration, he said. If that was true, my 'total concentration' lasted less than a second.

Years later, I can still only make it for a second or two before something disturbs the image.

Originally Posted by Greg guitar

To control one's own mind is, in my view a lofty and worthy goal for a lifetime. There is a famous suggestion by a Zen writer along the lines of it being a miracle for a person to achieve 30 seconds of concentration on a single thought with no other distracting thoughts. Sounds amazing, but try it; it's incredibly hard even for 10 seconds.

Some zen writers have called the pursuit, "taming the monkey mind". It's rarely still, and some think that a moment of stillness would totally change your life. I don't know, because I doubt I've ever had a moment of mental stillness; unconsciousness, yes, but that isn't the same thing.

So you aren't alone in not having control of your own mind; that's a rare thing indeed, but I think it is exactly the reason we are so suggestable (some more than others). One of the reasons for meditation is to take control of your mind away from others, as much as possible.

[Jericho]

True... but I guess that all of marketing and advertising is an attempt to persuade. I think that mind control is just a new marketing way of trying to make this process sound more effective, forceful and underground.

Just think about cigarette companies and how they used to pay all of those Hollywood actors to smoke (and in movies too). I don't know if you call it mind control, but it is definitely a manipulation.

And Gatorade? I wanna be like Mike.

Heck... which kid didn't want to be like Mike Jordan at the time? I went straight up to my mom and started demanding gatorade for my school bbal games.

Very effective.

Is it marketing? Is it persuasion? Is it mind-control? Or is it just advertising.

BTW I still wanna be like mike!

youtube.com/watch?v=b0AGiq9j_Ak

[Lyn Woodring]

while that looks a little bit like a blog post or a previously written article, it's good info.

Where does this fact come from:

Quote:
The messages in the subconcious travel at 100sx the speed of the concious mind
Actually I wrote this from memory this morning in response to the question, all except the excerpts.
In response to your question where I got the information about the difference in speed between conscious and subconscious thought, after searching all evening I finally found at least one reference. I'll include parts of the article and would include a link but I don't want to get in trouble here. But it is a site on speedreading.

"The subconscious mind can process 20 000 000 bits of info per second. The conscious mind can only process 40 bits of info/sec. So the subconscious mind can process 500 000 time more what the conscious mind is able to. This according to information from The Biology of Belief by Dr Bruce Lipton."

"Another study suggests that the subconscious mind processes about 400 billion bits of information per second and the impulses travel at a speed of up to 100,000 mph! Compare this to your conscious mind, which processes only about 2,000 bits of information per second and its impulses travel only at 100-150 mph."

"Another take: only about 0.01% of all the brain’s activity is experienced consciously. In other words, it is as if roughly 10’000 cinema films are actually going on in the brain all at once, while we are only consciously aware of one of them."

[Greg guitar]

Originally Posted by Lyn Woodring

while that looks a little bit like a blog post or a previously written article, it's good info.

Where does this fact come from:

Quote:
The messages in the subconcious travel at 100sx the speed of the concious mind
Actually I wrote this from memory this morning in response to the question, all except the excerpts.
In response to your question where I got the information about the difference in speed between conscious and subconscious thought, after searching all evening I finally found at least one reference. I'll include parts of the article and would include a link but I don't want to get in trouble here. But it is a site on speedreading.

"The subconscious mind can process 20 000 000 bits of info per second. The conscious mind can only process 40 bits of info/sec. So the subconscious mind can process 500 000 time more what the conscious mind is able to. This according to information from The Biology of Belief by Dr Bruce Lipton."

"Another study suggests that the subconscious mind processes about 400 billion bits of information per second and the impulses travel at a speed of up to 100,000 mph! Compare this to your conscious mind, which processes only about 2,000 bits of information per second and its impulses travel only at 100-150 mph."

"Another take: only about 0.01% of all the brain’s activity is experienced consciously. In other words, it is as if roughly 10’000 cinema films are actually going on in the brain all at once, while we are only consciously aware of one of them."

Fascinating post Lyn; kind of humbling for me, when I think of all the seconds and moments I've spent just trying to bring mundane memories to mind, like "can I go left on 6th ave, or will I have to cross the freeway?... come on, think.....I know this....", or "Oh cr*p, I should know this guy's name, am I going to have to ask him yet again?"

All the while my subconcious was going, "hey dumb*ss, if you'll just pay attention, I'm trying to give it to you; man, I'm tired of waiting for you to catch up..."

[jimmyab]

Hey man if you presume to be able to control people buying decisions by making them do what you want, you've missed the point! All good copy does is tell them to take action because whats in front of them "will meet their needs". People buy what they want brother "not what you think they want". Everyones favourite station is "WIIFM", 'whats in it for me' - so show them you got what they want, and then youve got the right to make them take action. Check my link to find out how.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Lyn Woodring

The messages in the subconcious travel at 100sx the speed of the concious mind

This is semi-true. The nerve impulses travel at the same speed. However, the human brain's entire function is to delete what doesn't matter and deliver what matters to the conscious mind. Everything starts in the subconscious and is delivered to the conscious. Less than 1% of what you observe actually matters. So the subconscious mind is processing a boatload of information to figure out if it matters, and then delivering a tiny fraction of that to the conscious mind for more detailed examination.

It's not that the subconscious mind is faster, but that the conscious mind has a smaller and slower job. Once something is in the conscious mind, higher-level processing is taking place... compare it to sorting and polishing. You can sort something very quickly, but polishing it takes more time. Saying that sorting is "faster" isn't inaccurate when you're talking about throughput, but saying that the sorting machine is faster than the polishing machine is a little disingenuous - the two jobs aren't really comparable.