I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 05:56 PM

I am coordinating a website redesign for an ex girlfriends father and business partners. They know very little about the web and knew I was into IM so they asked me to help out.

It is going to be an e commerce site that sells truck accessories. It is to be a fairly sophisticated site with a CMS that will let the admin add products, run sales, issue coupons etc.

Looking at probably 15 - 20 pages in all with logo and graphics design included in the package. Initial SEO is also included in the price.

I could go on and on to describe what is involved but it would be easier to just post links to the pdf's that I have from the design firm. The first is a sample of the CMS backend for the admin. The second is the actual quote.

I'd like some help determining if this is a reasonable quote or not. It's not a huge read about 3 quick pages...

Being in IM I have not had a need to make a site like this and can't say for certain how much effort is involved. I'd like to give them good advice so I am asking for any input. If anyone can offer me their opinion thanks in advance.

I know web designers vary cost greatly, I just don't want to see them get bent over. This firm has a very nice portfolio and has done some very good work. They are a local company and have good support AKA I can get face time with them.

Here are the links I uploaded to a dead site...

CMS Example pdf
Proposal pdf

I would greatly appreciate any input, thanks for the time

SPress · 10-22-2009, 06:09 PM

Hi Christian,

I manage software projects for a living, so let me give you some quick advice.

Overall, I think it's a good start, but lacks detail.

The first PDF is a screenshot of the majority of the admin screens. Although most of the functionality can probably be inferred from looking at the picture, I wouldn't be comfortable without an accompanying functional specification. IOW, each screen shot should be accompanied by a detailed description of how the screen should look upon initialization, and behaviors or actions it must support, error handling & error messages...etc.

The software development company in this instance says the cost covers the "full scope" of the project. But nowhere in what you provided is the "full scope" defined.

Let me put it simply. When it comes to completion, and the software company bills you for the work, how do you know it's done? There isn't a description of each page of the project, there's no test plan that it must pass to be considered complete, etc.

Even the simplest of projects can take an ugly turn, so the better defined it is at the onset, the less likely it will be to have misunderstandings.

Hope that helps!

Steve

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 06:20 PM

Thanks for the input, I did not generate the quote the design firm did I am merely acting as an agent as I do have a good understanding of things in general. The clients do have an understanding of the function of the backend of the CMS and the project in general but getting it in writing would be nice I agree.

It was stated in our meeting the system would be bug free and complete before it is launched I am sure it would not be an issue to have this written up.

I am looking mainly at the cost of the project to determine if it is grossly out of line or appears reasonable. I understand the total scope is a bit hard to determine with the quotes as it is.

SageSound · 10-22-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Fox

It was stated in our meeting the system would be bug free and complete before it is launched I am sure it would not be an issue to have this written up.

They'd have to be absolute morons to put that in writing!

I didn't look at your materials, but also having a life-long background in software, since you're having them generate the specs (which is bass-ackwards, but common nonetheless) here are a few questions to ask:

* what shopping cart platform are they using? Is it something like OS-Commerce? or a commercial script? Or a custom script?

* what sort of licensing costs are there for the script?

* have them break out the costs for setting up and customizing the script, including: graphic design, page layout, product details

* who's going to be maintaining the product inventory database? What's invovled with updating it?

* determine if it will handle all of the options you need to sell the products that need to be sold: qty, shipping costs, versions, etc.

That's all that comes to mind quickly, but there are a lot more things that need to be looked at.

NOTE: I don't consider this an "internet marketing" kind of project; rather, it's just a software development contract for web site development. The two are miles apart. Be careful.

-David

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 06:50 PM

Thanks David,

Answers

Quote:

* what shopping cart platform are they using? Is it something like OS-Commerce? or a commercial script? Or a custom script? Custom Script

* what sort of licensing costs are there for the script? $1500 development fee

* have them break out the costs for setting up and customizing the script, including: graphic design, page layout, product details Good idea

* who's going to be maintaining the product inventory database? What's involved with updating it? They will be able to do this with the CMS / Integrated into package.

* determine if it will handle all of the options you need to sell the products that need to be sold: qty, shipping costs, versions, etc. Yes it will this has been addressed

That's all that comes to mind quickly, but there are a lot more things that need to be looked at.

NOTE: I don't consider this an "internet marketing" kind of project; rather, it's just a software development contract for web site development. The two are miles apart. Be careful.

I agree that is why I passed and found someone more experienced

The system will also accommodate integration of their existing dealer network about 250 dealers and allow them all to have a 3 page minisite capable of sales (through the main site payment processor) on their site. This will be set up by the dealers via password access and CMS backend. (should be a big benefit being able to geo-target these pages).....

Dealers will pay for their minisite but this setup is included in development fee and it is hosted on my clients domain.

It is quite a project.

SageSound · 10-22-2009, 06:57 PM

a "licensing fee" is not the same as a "development fee"

Quote:

* who's going to be maintaining the product inventory database? What's involved with updating it? They will be able to do this with the CMS / Integrated into package.

I asked WHO. Not whether it's possible. I know an outfit once who bid on a project like this and ended up in a big lawsuit b/c this wasn't addressed. The client thought the vendor was going to maintain their inventory database, and the vendor said it was never included in their bid. It was a HUGE inventory, and the client didn't want to hire someone to maintain it, thinking that was really all they were contracting for!

People THINK "we've got 300 things we need to sell online" and the developers think, "they need a shopping cart with these 4 features added". One sees content, the other sees functions. Very different issues.

-David

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageSound

a "licensing fee" is not the same as a "development fee"

I asked WHO. Not whether it's possible. I know an outfit once who bid on a project like this and ended up in a big lawsuit b/c this wasn't addressed. The client thought the vendor was going to maintain their inventory database, and the vendor said it was never included in their bid. It was a HUGE inventory, and the client didn't want to hire someone to maintain it, thinking that was really all they were contracting for!

People THINK "we've got 300 things we need to sell online" and the developers think, "they need a shopping cart with these 4 features added". One sees content, the other sees functions. Very different issues.

-David

Got it they referred to my clients. They will maintain inventory database they have a limited number of products, it is not a huge inventory. They understand this will be their responsibility and not the web developers.

As for the licensing and development I should have clarified they did not propose any licensing fee just the development fee. I will have to ask specifically.

SageSound · 10-22-2009, 07:14 PM

I'm just posting questions that need to be addressed. I don't need the answers.

BTW, if you have a minute, could you help out with something quick?

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...st-please.html

Thanks!
-David

Mark Riddle · 10-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Christian,

I've looked over the details of both the PDFs you have provided, and as far and the numbers involved they seem to be reasonable.

However, what is left out is who the issue of future modifications if needed.

Also if the coding is encrypted or would some other programmer be able to modify the code assuming that the original writer was not available for updates.

On a project like this I would want in writing from the original provider pricing on future mods and for the first year, and the guarantee that their firm will be able to provide ongoing support in the event of server configurations and security modifications of the hosting provider and or payment gateways.

Most have no problem with these types of limited agreements, because they are a reasonable expectations considering they are the most familiar with the code and are likely to know the required modifications to make the software compatible with the hosting and the gateways. If they are providing similar applications to other clients they have already written the updates to the code so the cost to update are minimal.

In the event the original programmer is no longer with the firm it will be at their expense to get the coder up to speed.

Also a flow chart of the operation needs to be included with the bid.

A step by step of how to add merchandise, manufactures and categories would be great, yet creating detailed manuals is often beyond the scope of software development firms.

An agreement of when payments are to be made and list of actions and accomplishments that determine when the project qualifies for a payment for work completed.

An agreement of reduction of payment for missed deadlines (generally its better to be written as a bonus for completion prior to deadline AND penalties)

Mark Riddle

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 07:23 PM

David,
Done, reply posted in thread.

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 07:25 PM

Thanks for the excellent reply Mark.

DogScout · 10-22-2009, 07:58 PM

Looks high to me.

I am not sure what dealer type they are, but with car dealers, all that is provided by the manufacturer. The dealership's costs are usually inflated monthlies ($500-$750 a month only) with nothing up front. Of course that is an agreement between car makers and the dealers, not between a dealer and a site builder. But for the $17-18,000 that appears to be, must be a hell of a site!

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DogScout

Looks high to me.

I am not sure what dealer type they are, but with car dealers, all that is provided by the manufacturer. The dealership's costs are usually inflated monthlies ($500-$750 a month only) with nothing up front. Of course that is an agreement between car makers and the dealers, not between a dealer and a site builder. But for the $17-18,000 that appears to be, must be a hell of a site!

That is not the case here, it is a proprietary accessory that they manufacture. Several models for various truck models and all replacement parts. It is not a situation where they would be simply posting feeds from a dealer. I could have managed that for them.

It is a complex site with dealer integration for 250 sub dealers (or more) and CMS Admin control of product additions etc in the backend. Also included is payment processing and sub dealer site creation via the CMS all hosted on their domain.

Thanks for the reply.

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 09:30 PM

Bump for more opinions if anyone has the time..

JesseT · 10-22-2009, 09:47 PM

One thing I would suggest (and it might save you a lot of time) is look at Magento Commerce: Magento - Home - eCommerce Software for Growth. It is very powerful and will save you a lot of time on designing. Although from the looks of your first pdf you already have a CMS(and probably ecommerce.) The best part about Magento is it is free and extremely powerful right out of the box. There are tons of commercial addons for it (for a fee ofc.) and is pretty easy to modify to work to your advantage. One thing I will forewarn you about: You will have to modify the shipping system to force P.O boxes to only be able to ship USPS. Other than that I absolutely love Magento. Can't really add much else than that. I just charge a flat rate of $30/hr for anything I do and aim high on estimates. My clients love it when they have an estimate of $1.5k and I end up only billing them half. They think I'm cutting them a deal

. Using a custom system imo is not a great idea unless you are dealing with a huge corporation and they can afford to have a staff addon/maintain it at all times. Coming from the Customers standpoint, what happens when you are no longer able to help them? They are pretty much SOL, but I guess that could be a good thing for you.

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseT

One thing I would suggest (and it might save you a lot of time) is look at Magento Commerce: Magento - Home - eCommerce Software for Growth. It is very powerful and will save you a lot of time on designing. Although from the looks of your first pdf you already have a CMS(and probably ecommerce.) The best part about Magento is it is free and extremely powerful right out of the box. There are tons of commercial addons for it (for a fee ofc.) and is pretty easy to modify to work to your advantage. One thing I will forewarn you about: You will have to modify the shipping system to force P.O boxes to only be able to ship USPS. Other than that I absolutely love Magento. Can't really add much else than that. I just charge a flat rate of $30/hr for anything I do and aim high on estimates. My clients love it when they have an estimate of $1.5k and I end up only billing them half. They think I'm cutting them a deal

. Using a custom system imo is not a great idea unless you are dealing with a huge corporation and they can afford to have a staff addon/maintain it at all times. Coming from the Customers standpoint, what happens when you are no longer able to help them? They are pretty much SOL, but I guess that could be a good thing for you.

This is more complex than that having dealer integration for hundreds of dealers on site payment processing, regional price data etc, etc.

The CMS in needed to allow them to make changes without being versed in HTML. I'm not doing the site just helping steer them towards the wanted result.

The idea is to not have them need a full time internet guy to maintain the site in the end while still having a flexible and expandable site.

crystalq · 10-22-2009, 10:20 PM

Well they sound like a rip to me, get more quotes.

Look for people at oDesk, freelance, guru.com and so on.

You could cut all of those hosting costs out, newsletter ect.
OMG $75.00 for GA! WTF.

However, I do like their cart and what they will do. Haggle that
price down and cut out some of those cost which you can
easily do yourself.

Another option may be to go with wordpress and an ecommerce
plugin. There's a few good plugins out there that cost only a couple
of hundred. But I do not know if they have the option let other users
post new ads and such.

Take a look at https://www.interspire.com/shoppingcart/
they might be better

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystalq

Well they sound like a rip to me, get more quotes.

Look for people at oDesk, freelance, guru.com and so on.

You could cut all of those hosting costs out, newsletter ect.
OMG $75.00 for GA! WTF.

However, I do like their cart and what they will do. Haggle that
price down and cut out some of those cost which you can
easily do yourself.

Another option may be to go with wordpress and an ecommerce
plugin. There's a few good plugins out there that cost only a couple
of hundred. But I do not know if they have the option let other users
post new ads and such.

Thanks Crystal,

I know I could have them outsource this for much less and I told them that initially but the support and coordination would be a big hassle. This is a complex project and I really need face time with the developers to get it right. Also if they have a dbase crash or some other issue I don't want to have to chase someone down in India to fix the issue.

I thought about WP and an E-commerce option but this is more advanced than that. They also need a simple admin backend. WP is easy for me but not everyone does this stuff all day.

Yeah I paused at the GA fee also but on the plus side all of the initial SEO, professional graphics, logos, etc are also included. Personally I have shunned GA but that is because I am sneeeeeaky

They have to play by the rules and do it the hard way, can't risk a ban with a site like this for sure.

It would take me probably a solid month of hard work to SEO their site and get them ranked for their KW list and this is with all of my automation.

Yes I could do the newsletter and all of that, but not on their CMS platform. I am just too busy to learn another platform right now. Might be able to scrape by with Joomla but I just don't need that kind of power for IM and have not mastered it. When I am making more money perhaps I can spend time on things like that...

crystalq · 10-22-2009, 11:11 PM

Anytime Christian

I love GA, a good alternative is StatsCounter - They've been pretty accurate for me.

Christian Fox · 10-22-2009, 11:28 PM

You bet,
I already use them...

Google is like a big dog that loves you all it's life and then bites your face off for no apparent reason.

I don't trust them knowing more than they need to.

10-22-2009, 05:56 PM	#1
Christian Fox No Fate But What U Make! War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Jenison, MI Posts: 838 Thanks: 64 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts	I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz I am coordinating a website redesign for an ex girlfriends father and business partners. They know very little about the web and knew I was into IM so they asked me to help out. It is going to be an e commerce site that sells truck accessories. It is to be a fairly sophisticated site with a CMS that will let the admin add products, run sales, issue coupons etc. Looking at probably 15 - 20 pages in all with logo and graphics design included in the package. Initial SEO is also included in the price. I could go on and on to describe what is involved but it would be easier to just post links to the pdf's that I have from the design firm. The first is a sample of the CMS backend for the admin. The second is the actual quote. I'd like some help determining if this is a reasonable quote or not. It's not a huge read about 3 quick pages... Being in IM I have not had a need to make a site like this and can't say for certain how much effort is involved. I'd like to give them good advice so I am asking for any input. If anyone can offer me their opinion thanks in advance. I know web designers vary cost greatly, I just don't want to see them get bent over. This firm has a very nice portfolio and has done some very good work. They are a local company and have good support AKA I can get face time with them. Here are the links I uploaded to a dead site... CMS Example pdf Proposal pdf I would greatly appreciate any input, thanks for the time

10-22-2009, 06:09 PM	#2
SPress HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Diego, CA ,USA. Posts: 145 Thanks: 15 Thanked 22 Times in 12 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Hi Christian, I manage software projects for a living, so let me give you some quick advice. Overall, I think it's a good start, but lacks detail. The first PDF is a screenshot of the majority of the admin screens. Although most of the functionality can probably be inferred from looking at the picture, I wouldn't be comfortable without an accompanying functional specification. IOW, each screen shot should be accompanied by a detailed description of how the screen should look upon initialization, and behaviors or actions it must support, error handling & error messages...etc. The software development company in this instance says the cost covers the "full scope" of the project. But nowhere in what you provided is the "full scope" defined. Let me put it simply. When it comes to completion, and the software company bills you for the work, how do you know it's done? There isn't a description of each page of the project, there's no test plan that it must pass to be considered complete, etc. Even the simplest of projects can take an ugly turn, so the better defined it is at the onset, the less likely it will be to have misunderstandings. Hope that helps! Steve
	Have a great day!

10-22-2009, 06:20 PM	#3
Christian Fox No Fate But What U Make! War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Jenison, MI Posts: 838 Thanks: 64 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Thanks for the input, I did not generate the quote the design firm did I am merely acting as an agent as I do have a good understanding of things in general. The clients do have an understanding of the function of the backend of the CMS and the project in general but getting it in writing would be nice I agree. It was stated in our meeting the system would be bug free and complete before it is launched I am sure it would not be an issue to have this written up. I am looking mainly at the cost of the project to determine if it is grossly out of line or appears reasonable. I understand the total scope is a bit hard to determine with the quotes as it is.

10-22-2009, 07:14 PM	#8
SageSound Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 620 Thanks: 56 Thanked 129 Times in 90 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz I'm just posting questions that need to be addressed. I don't need the answers. BTW, if you have a minute, could you help out with something quick? http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...st-please.html Thanks! -David

10-22-2009, 07:21 PM	#9
Mark Riddle Breakthrough Expert War Room Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Finally in Branson, MO !!, USA. Posts: 1,171 Thanks: 228 Thanked 187 Times in 121 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Christian, I've looked over the details of both the PDFs you have provided, and as far and the numbers involved they seem to be reasonable. However, what is left out is who the issue of future modifications if needed. Also if the coding is encrypted or would some other programmer be able to modify the code assuming that the original writer was not available for updates. On a project like this I would want in writing from the original provider pricing on future mods and for the first year, and the guarantee that their firm will be able to provide ongoing support in the event of server configurations and security modifications of the hosting provider and or payment gateways. Most have no problem with these types of limited agreements, because they are a reasonable expectations considering they are the most familiar with the code and are likely to know the required modifications to make the software compatible with the hosting and the gateways. If they are providing similar applications to other clients they have already written the updates to the code so the cost to update are minimal. In the event the original programmer is no longer with the firm it will be at their expense to get the coder up to speed. Also a flow chart of the operation needs to be included with the bid. A step by step of how to add merchandise, manufactures and categories would be great, yet creating detailed manuals is often beyond the scope of software development firms. An agreement of when payments are to be made and list of actions and accomplishments that determine when the project qualifies for a payment for work completed. An agreement of reduction of payment for missed deadlines (generally its better to be written as a bonus for completion prior to deadline AND penalties) Mark Riddle

10-22-2009, 07:23 PM	#10
Christian Fox No Fate But What U Make! War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Jenison, MI Posts: 838 Thanks: 64 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz David, Done, reply posted in thread.

10-22-2009, 07:25 PM	#11
Christian Fox No Fate But What U Make! War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Jenison, MI Posts: 838 Thanks: 64 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Thanks for the excellent reply Mark.

10-22-2009, 07:58 PM	#12
DogScout Self Unemployed War Room Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 2,343 Thanks: 697 Thanked 628 Times in 373 Posts Social Networking	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Looks high to me. I am not sure what dealer type they are, but with car dealers, all that is provided by the manufacturer. The dealership's costs are usually inflated monthlies ($500-$750 a month only) with nothing up front. Of course that is an agreement between car makers and the dealers, not between a dealer and a site builder. But for the $17-18,000 that appears to be, must be a hell of a site!
	Otis's Blog (Own The Internet, Silly) Breast Cancer Support - Breast Cancer Information Paint Shop Tubes - Free images - Free Graphics - Free Photos - 3D - Poser Tubes - Scrap Kits

10-22-2009, 09:30 PM	#14
Christian Fox No Fate But What U Make! War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Jenison, MI Posts: 838 Thanks: 64 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Bump for more opinions if anyone has the time..

10-22-2009, 09:47 PM	#15
JesseT Locked and Loaded War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Hollywood, Fl Posts: 99 Thanks: 53 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz One thing I would suggest (and it might save you a lot of time) is look at Magento Commerce: Magento - Home - eCommerce Software for Growth. It is very powerful and will save you a lot of time on designing. Although from the looks of your first pdf you already have a CMS(and probably ecommerce.) The best part about Magento is it is free and extremely powerful right out of the box. There are tons of commercial addons for it (for a fee ofc.) and is pretty easy to modify to work to your advantage. One thing I will forewarn you about: You will have to modify the shipping system to force P.O boxes to only be able to ship USPS. Other than that I absolutely love Magento. Can't really add much else than that. I just charge a flat rate of $30/hr for anything I do and aim high on estimates. My clients love it when they have an estimate of $1.5k and I end up only billing them half. They think I'm cutting them a deal . Using a custom system imo is not a great idea unless you are dealing with a huge corporation and they can afford to have a staff addon/maintain it at all times. Coming from the Customers standpoint, what happens when you are no longer able to help them? They are pretty much SOL, but I guess that could be a good thing for you.
	Short Sale Extraordinaire!

10-22-2009, 10:20 PM	#17
crystalq Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Australia. Posts: 932 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 102 Thanked 44 Times in 41 Posts Social Networking	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Well they sound like a rip to me, get more quotes. Look for people at oDesk, freelance, guru.com and so on. You could cut all of those hosting costs out, newsletter ect. OMG $75.00 for GA! WTF. However, I do like their cart and what they will do. Haggle that price down and cut out some of those cost which you can easily do yourself. Another option may be to go with wordpress and an ecommerce plugin. There's a few good plugins out there that cost only a couple of hundred. But I do not know if they have the option let other users post new ads and such. Take a look at https://www.interspire.com/shoppingcart/ they might be better
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10-22-2009, 11:11 PM	#19
crystalq Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Australia. Posts: 932 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 102 Thanked 44 Times in 41 Posts Social Networking	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz Anytime Christian I love GA, a good alternative is StatsCounter - They've been pretty accurate for me.
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10-22-2009, 11:28 PM	#20
Christian Fox No Fate But What U Make! War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Jenison, MI Posts: 838 Thanks: 64 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts	Re: I need some help with a website quote for an offline biz. Plz You bet, I already use them... Google is like a big dog that loves you all it's life and then bites your face off for no apparent reason. I don't trust them knowing more than they need to.