HUGE DISCOVERY: Continuity Isn't King

[SeanyG]

Hey guys,

Thanks for checking out this post. I wanted to post it to help others on the forum and also to get some feedback.

When I started learning about IM one of the first videos I saw was Ryan Deiss' continuity blueprint free videos. So I based my new business around continuity. Free + shipping offers and then up selling to bigger product packages.

The business went live in July and since then has been growing steadily. I am selling info products to a niche other than IM. The target age is 18 - 26 year old males.

Up until this week I had been focusing on continuity but then I looked at my business numbers. They aren't impressive but they do allude to a HUGE flaw in my business model. This is from the last month (Sept 23 - Oct 23).

Continuity (Free + Shipping):
$1812

Upsells Off Of Free + Shipping Offer:
$437

Product Launch For A package of all of my different products:
$4914

So the total I made from continuity was $1811 and the total I made from selling products was $5315.

This is totally contradictory to the idea I had going into the business: that Continuity Is King.

Now I know there are a lot of variables that come into play that can effect these numbers. Perhaps I'm not offering enough value in the membership, perhaps the copy on my free offer isn't strong enough etc etc

...but here is what I now believe: Continuity is great for niches where people are being taught how to make money. $100 or even $20 per month is a great deal considering you can make thousands. For niches that aren't in the making money realm and are teaching other things that people are VERY afraid of continuity.

So now that I know that my products are making WAY more money for me than my continuity program it makes sense that I should focus on selling products instead of getting people into continuity...

I will keep the continuity as a mandatory BONUS for all products I sell but I am thinking I will remove the FREE + shipping offer and change my business model to focus just on selling products.

What are your thoughts? Do you think this is a smart move?

Any feedback would be appreciated!

Thanks for your time!

~Sean

[Ralf Skirr]

Originally Posted by SeanyG

Now I know there are a lot of variables that come into play that can effect these numbers. Perhaps I'm not offering enough value in the membership, perhaps the copy on my free offer isn't strong enough etc etc

It's very true that there's a huge number of variables.

Every business needs to test and figure out its own best model.

Originally Posted by SeanyG

...but here is what I now believe: Continuity is great for niches where people are being taught how to make money. $100 or even $20 per month is a great deal considering you can make thousands. For niches that aren't in the making money realm and are teaching other things that people are VERY afraid of continuity.

That, I believe is a DANGEROUS conclusion, and a wrong one too.

First, there is no data in your sales numbers that in any way supports that specific conclusion about niches.
Second, there are a lot of niches that thrive on continuity products.

I mention this not to prove you wrong, but to open your mind again for the possibilities, that are easily overlooked when operating from the above conclusion.

Ralf

[Pipinscott]

I agree with Ralf, you might want to look at your stats again and be certain all the bases are covered before making a sweeping conclusion.

[GarrieWilson]

Continuity (Free + Shipping):
$1812

That could be MONTHLY and require less work.

Product Launch For A package of all of my different products:
$4914

That's ONE-TIME. Next month it will be lower because it's no longer a launch.

Garrie

[SeanyG]

Ralf, Pipin, Gary: You guys all make GREAT points. The way that I worded my first post I can see why you would say that I have jumped to a Dangerous conclusion here...

However, I think I should have named this thread:

"Free + Shipping Offers aren't king" because you are right, the continuity revenue is valuable. It consistently covers all of my costs and is pretty passive income.

What I am trying to get at is the point that one of my mentors made. I am not monetizing my list at all.

I am giving away a FREE newsletter, with tons of (too much) FREE content and every part of my business is trying to funnel the visitor / subscriber in to the FREE + Shipping offer.

Right now, visitors won't discover my other products until then buy the Free + shipping offer and then see the upsells & downsells. This recent launch to my list showed me that this current model is flawed because there are visitors out there that are willing to pay for a range of higher end ($300) products that they won't come across in my current "drive everything to the Free + Shipping Offer" model...

So I'm a FREE business model right now...

Where as a guy like Eben (David D) does the same, offers a FREE newsletter, Free info in his email BUT in his emails are plugs for all of his different products, all of which tie the user into continuity. There are no Free + shipping offers. He has a range of prodcuts from 19.97 up to $497, all of which tie the user into continuity. Every email has 4 - 5 links to his different products & catalog page.

I'm suggesting I do the same. Instead of my business focusing 100% on getting traffic to take a Free + Shipping offer to get them into continuity, I should be selling a range of products that tie them into continuity instead of just FREE FREE FREE.

Is this still flawed or is this making a little more sense?

[jamesburchill]

An observation of my own. "The tools don't make the master." A wonderful implementation of the "perfect system" will still suck if the product or service being sold by the system is sub-par. At the end of the day, it's all in the value proposition. Frankly if what you've got is what they want then your system can suck and you'll do fine. But perfection without point is well ... pointless, or more importantly - PROFITLESS

[SeanyG]

Very true James.

Thanks for your input!

[lakshaybehl]

Continuity shows its true effect in months.... it snowballs slowly... and when it reaches a critical mass, it becomes rapid... so rapid that you can not possibly stop money from flowing in.

Just Saying...

-Lakshay

P.S. I love $5/Month. Its easier on my customer's pockets. And their minds.

[SeanyG]

Thanks for the thoughts Iaks.

I like a low pricepoint as well!

[Suthan M]

Somehow, i dont agree "continuity is king i.e per month billings". How many have tested rather than just listen to hearsay.

I have noticed that in many niches, people dislike continuity and that has less sales.

In any case, you might have noticed that its harder to sell continuity products. Try giving one in clickbank a try with a "one time payment" product, and i can bet the latter will have more sales for less effort.

[Daniel E Taylor]

Continuity shouldn't be you're whole business.

Why is the "Internet Marketing Community" so
freaking Either OR?

You are RUNNING A BUSINESS.

Which means you don't seperate the income into
"Continuity made 1500, and launch made me 5000"
so I should just stick to launches".

Both of them together brung in 6500 in revenue for
your business.

Utilize many different streams in your business to
maximize profits.

That's business.

A continuity plan is just another stream for your business
as well as doing product launches, and traditional marketing,
and whatever.

Continuity is great because it keeps you bringing in consistent
income over time.

Product launches are great because you can make a big
whop in a few days.

So why not do both and have an effective profitable business?

[jbode]

You profits should be more from your high end back end products such as coaching and high value products, you need to have a good continuity site to get people to stay a member... fixed (micro) continuity allows you to offer something of high value at the end, so you keep members longer IMO.

[SeanyG]

Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor

Continuity shouldn't be you're whole business.

Why is the "Internet Marketing Community" so
freaking Either OR?

You are RUNNING A BUSINESS.

Which means you don't seperate the income into
"Continuity made 1500, and launch made me 5000"
so I should just stick to launches".

Both of them together brung in 6500 in revenue for
your business.

Utilize many different streams in your business to
maximize profits.

That's business.

A continuity plan is just another stream for your business
as well as doing product launches, and traditional marketing,
and whatever.

This is exactly the discovery that I made. I used to think that my whole business had to focus on continuity. EVERYTHING in my business model was used to try to get visitors into continuity. Now I see that selling products is equally as important (and quite possibly more lucrative).

Your response resonates with me because you're right, they are just different revenue streams.

[SeanyG]

Originally Posted by asianlunatic

Somehow, i dont agree "continuity is king i.e per month billings". How many have tested rather than just listen to hearsay.

I agree that not all of the responses may be 'tested' however there is a lot of great feedback here!

[TommyBussey]

Hey SeanyG,

I think that you should not throw away the idea of continuity. Something that Lakshay said above is that he loves $5/month because it's easier on his customers' pockets.

An internet marketer named Mike Hill (who does ridiculously high volumes) charges like $25,000 for a day of consultation. Anyways, something that he teaches his clients and at seminars is called a "Value Trojan."

Basically, what he does is after a customer makes the purchase on the initial product, he offers a downsell continuity program called a "value trojan" which could be a monthly newsletter (etc.) and charges the customer $5-$10/month. It's amazing the statistics that he showed for it. He has had some people stay in the those newsletters for like 2 years.

Anyways, just a though that came to mind when I saw your thread.

Tommy

[Anonymous Affiliate]

ACTUALLY, I agree with the OP: I moved my business from the continuity model to the standalone + upsell model. After parsing through a lot of data and doing some statistics, I came to the conclusion that continuity didn't make much sense in my business. Here's why:

My monthly billing was US$27 and the stick rate was between 4 and 5 months. Yes, many people tell you that continuity equals to income for life, but that's not true. In fact, most of your subscribers will only remain onboard for a fistful of months before unsubscribing no matter how good your content is. Why? become most people change hobbies, interests and niches like they change shirts. Only a tiny percentage of your customer base will continue paying the monthly fee for years. Anyone who's run a continuity site will confirm you that VERY few people stick beyond the 6-month line.

Eventually I repacked the whole thing into a stand alone product of US$97 plus an OTO upsell of an extra US$37.

Guess what: if you run the numbers, you will see that US$27 times 4 or 5 months equals more less the same to US$97 plus the OTO upsell. And guess what else: running a stand alone product is SO MUCH LESS WORK than running a continuity program it's not even funny. Yes, all the gurus will tell you that you can automate the continuity process, but the customer service overload is certainly higher: since you've built a continuity community, you get many more emails than with a stand alone product and you need to remain connected with your community or else people will unsubscribe.

Moral of the story: I moved away from the continuity model and my income hasn't dropped on that precise product, plus the work overload is certainly lower so I can focus on creating new products, new upsells, etc.

[Anonymous Affiliate]

Originally Posted by TommyBussey

An internet marketer named Mike Hill teaches his clients and at seminars is called a "Value Trojan."

Basically, what he does is after a customer makes the purchase on the initial product, he offers a downsell continuity program called a "value trojan" which could be a monthly newsletter (etc.) and charges the customer $5-$10/month. It's amazing the statistics that he showed for it. He has had some people stay in the those newsletters for like 2 years

What about instead of US$5 per month for a full year, he repackages the whole thing as a stand alone product of US$47? It's more less the same income and it's INSTANT, and he wouldn't need to worry about stick rates, producing continuous content, etc.

Don't fall for the guru calls and their "secret" tactics, because their goal is to SELL you those "secrets".

[tradermike2008]

I run a stock trading service where continuity is the product, have been in business over ten years and came to a conclusion a fw weeks ago about continuity - that it makes sense when you are in a niche like mine where what people are paying for is regular timely information - stock picks, market forecasts in response to a changing market.

But in Internet marketing it might not be such a great thing. Two reasons. First things aren't changing all of the time so your information can't always be timely. SEcondly though the market is different, most people who buy an IM product are beginners. They buy the course and most of them don't even look at it and fewer do anything with it. They buy continuity as an add on to their purchase, but then eventually they give up on IM and just cancel or move on to something else.

I don't think continuity is a great thing to base a business model on when it comes to Internet marketing niche. Think this is why stompernet got into financial trouble and lowered their price and why it looks like now Frank Kern is going to stop offering his infomillionaire.

But in a niche like mine Continuity is king.

So I think it depends on your niche- but in most niches it isn't as great as it is made out to be.

[JohnMcCabe]

Two things to take away from this thread:

1. This business is not an either/or proposition. If your target market will go for it, offer a standalone product and a continuity offer. It's not always advantageous, but where it works, why ignore it?

In one of Dan Kennedy's seminars, he made the same point in relation to buying advertising. One of his clients was running regular ads in Magazine A. One month, he ran a similar ad in Magazine B, and his cost per lead was much lower. The pattern continued for a few months, so the client wanted to drop A and only advertise in B.

Kennedy asked his client a few questions. Was the ad in A profitable? It was. Was the ad in A leeching leads from B? Not that they could tell. Why drop a profitable campaign when there was no evidence that it was compromising the ROI?

The client went on to happily advertise in both A and B.

You can apply the same logic to running a continuity program alongside a product sales program. If they are both profitable, and one is not cannibalizing the other, why leave part of the money on the table?

2. Like racing, there are horses for courses.

As I recall, most of the examples Deiss gave in his pre-launch stuff had to do with either providing a web-based service or providing a monthly package of products (like PLR, for example).

If your market doesn't lend itself to that kind of offer, a continuity program may not be the best choice. You have to know your own markets.

[Anonymous Affiliate]

Originally Posted by tradermike2008

I run a stock trading service where continuity is the product, have been in business over ten years and came to a conclusion a fw weeks ago about continuity - that it makes sense when you are in a niche like mine where what people are paying for is regular timely information - stock picks, market forecasts in response to a changing market.

That bolded part of the quote is crucial for continuity success: timely, regular and fresh info. If you cannot produce that, then continuity makes little business sense.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate

That bolded part of the quote is crucial for continuity success: timely, regular and fresh info. If you cannot produce that, then continuity makes little business sense.

The other model that seems to work well is controlling access to a useful tool or service. Think web hosting, autoresponders, keyword analysis tools, etc.

How many people just on this forum are paying monthly fees to outfits like Aweber, Hostgator, Market Samurai, and so on...?

[Zeus66]

I think it absolutely is about the niche. I also think it's about your depth of knowledge/experience, in that this will in large part determine your ability to be prolific with the information you can impart to your membership if you go the continuity route. I sell info products with usually a higher priced OTO and multiple upsells. This works for me because I have over a decade in IM. This would probably not work in many other niches.

Whoever above me said you gotta test was 100% correct. Don't assume in any niche. Test out various models. If more than one works well, don't limit yourself. Incorporate all the winners. It's your business!

John

[Anonymous Affiliate]

The thing with continuity is that most people don't realize that the average membership life span for the typical subscriber is a mere fistful of months, so for the average user you don't end up getting more money than if you charged them the whole package in advance as a stand alone product.

Unless you're able to keep your AVERAGE subscriber over half a year minimum (which is VERY difficult), the maths dont add up.

[Dylan Jones]

Some ideas...

I wanted/want to buy your DJ course. I am getting a new setup soon, so I wanted to pick up your course, but...

I didn't want the beginners stuff that you cover in your free +S&H offer. I would have bought your actually upsell with the more meatier stuff by now if I knew what it was, and I could just browse your product library.

So idea numba 1: Create more offers! (more buy now buttons on the web = more money)

Offers that fit to the people who may not be sure about DJ stuff, and you can offer
them the free DVD, but also offer people a place to buy the bigger course.

People searching about DJ stuff online have some idea about the basics already, or
atleast they are learning it. So asking those part of your audience to buy a beginners
guide isn't a good enough offer (to me, atleast - cause I am that part).

People LOVE advanced stuff, and they will buy it no matter what level of skill they
are at.

I can't even do a basic scratch, yet I am gonna be buying a $2,000 setup, but I feel
happy to buy the setup, because I know its ADVANCED, and will last me a long time.

Thats why people with no skills at photoshop buy the BIG photoshop packages, and
they buy the ADVANCED books about it, not the lame "Photoshop for idiots".

Same with marketing, just look at all the newbies buying Mike Hills course, and Frank
Kerns, etc etc.

They all want ADVANCED stuff, and will pay for it. Because it lasts longer, and it allows
them to feel like they are becoming better at it faster, they are learning harder stuff
sooner, and the basic stuff seems obvious.

Thats why if I buy a basic DJ guide... once I am done it... I am done it. No use to go
back to it, but an advance guide is big, and there is a lot to master.

As for your membership site... I dont know what your offer is with that, but remember
that musical people are creative people, so maybe offer them new promotional
templates every month that they can play with for their own basement shows, etc etc.

Anyways, your videos are killer, and your emails are cool too. I like the House doc. that
you posted on your blog.

You got a kickass thing going, just need to widen up your offer set, because the free
plus S&H is just one offer, but you need more buy now buttons at different prices.

Hope that helps.

- Dylan

[netkid]

You could use a continuity program as an entry into the sales funnel. Hit up the current membership with live events, follow up OTO's, exclusive invitations to other related live events as an affiliate, sell offline products to them, and invites to other related memberships you create. Extend email marketing to this membership. Take "polls" from existing membership and ask what else they want. You then offer the "next" product or membership site to them. That way, you won't have to worry about stick rate.

Dan Kennedy mentions in his teachings to discover additional ways to funnel your "herd."

It doesn't have to be a "start and end" with a customer just from one continuity model....

Bruce

[SeanyG]

Originally Posted by Dylan Jones

Just need to widen up your offer set, because the free
plus S&H is just one offer, but you need more buy now buttons at different prices.

Hope that helps.

- Dylan

Dylan,

This is exactly the conclusion that I came to but you summarized it well. Your feedback in invaluable!

I'm dropping you a PM right now. Check it!

This thread has been awesome.

I'm not planning to ditch continuity. I'm considering ditching the Free + Shipping offer as my sole model of doing business...

As Dylan said, I have a lot of great products that I upsell / downsell too but theses offers aren't available anywhere aside from upsells after the Free + shipping offer.

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. There are some real Top Gun marketers replying here!

Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts!

[SeanyG]

Originally Posted by netkid

It doesn't have to be a "start and end" with a customer just from one continuity model....

Exactly Bruce. This is what I need to change!

Awesome!

[MikeZewski]

As long as its working for you then keep running your business like this.

[Kevin AKA Hubcap]

Hi SeanyG

As many people have pointed out here there's no reason to do either/or when you can do both.

I think you're putting undue emphasis on the free+shipping offer. Remember that only exists to funnel people into a continuity program.

IMO, if you're using continuity as a model, it really doesn't matter if the customer comes from a free+shipping offer, from buying a product, or from some other funnel.

Also...

Why aren't you using e-mail to sell your products? You don't need a customer to go through the free+shipping funnel in order to show other products.

You have their e-mail address

Use it not only for the free newsletter but to sell your products.

Kevin

[ewenmack]

Great discussion guys.

If selling information based training, payable monthly,
when you think about it, you want to know what you
are getting and when before you buy.

So more time should be spent on giving out explicit details on those 2 points.

Also let them know when the training ends and what they will have achieved at the end of it.

Not some nebulus stuff.

Jimmy Brown, Russel Brunson are doing it by email autoresponder.

There's no mucking around with membership sites.

Paypal is the only other tech stuff you need to get you going too.

Once the members have been through your training course, you can invite them into the next level, another training on a associated subject, private mentorship or have some thing done for them.

As you can see, this creates continuity, as we know it, but to the buyers, it's about continually upgrading their skills like you would do at University.

Allways in a very well defined way.

Of course this creates the onus on the marketer to come up with beneficial and relavant training.

Easier for some than others for sure.

As legendary copywriter Gary Bencivenga said, "The reason I have had more home runs than other competing copywriters with the major mailers is because I picked winning products or I had them made better"

Or words to that effect.

So the point is...

People will not stick around long after the novelty wears off...

And...

More people are likely to join knowing up front their desired outcome is assured at a certain point in time.

Make sense?

Looking forward to more discussion on this thread.

All the best,

Ewen Vile

[Folusho Orokunle]

After testing this myself, I have come to this conclusion:

You need to focus on how much money you want to make and what your expenses are.

I have two membership sites that cover my business expenses. Once the revenue/membership dips, I promote it again to get to the point where it covers expenses.

Then we have products at the 37,197,397,997,1200,3000,and $5000 price range to make the big bucks.

You have to start thinking like the big boys/gals.

They focus on revenue goals, etc... How much do you want to make this month?

What are your projections?

If you made $6500 last month, what will you do to make $8500?

If continuity is $2000 this month, you need to make $6000 from regular product sales.

You can sell 20 $300 product or sell 10 $600 product...

Have you created a 1k product yet? Will your niche by a product that cost that much?

If there are no expensive products in your market, create one and see if the market will bear it.

A few years ago I went from making 15k one month to 100k the next just by putting aside the fear of selling high priced products.

Conclusion: Continuity is good, but you're not going to get rich doing it unless you're selling thousands of memberships a month... Be Blessed.

[tradermike2008]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

The other model that seems to work well is controlling access to a useful tool or service. Think web hosting, autoresponders, keyword analysis tools, etc.

How many people just on this forum are paying monthly fees to outfits like Aweber, Hostgator, Market Samurai, and so on...?

If you look at stompernet and there last launch this seems to be in the direction they are now trying to go. Instead of high cost membership site with training they are trying to also ad a pakcage of tools like this. I think there is a defininte move in internet marketing where some are seeing difficulties in applying continuity in the niche - at least building a business solely around it.

Fallon trying to use all of these ad on tools to make stompernet contuinity more sustainable.

[tradermike2008]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate

The thing with continuity is that most people don't realize that the average membership life span for the typical subscriber is a mere fistful of months, so for the average user you don't end up getting more money than if you charged them the whole package in advance as a stand alone product.

Unless you're able to keep your AVERAGE subscriber over half a year minimum (which is VERY difficult), the maths dont add up.

See this is the difference in the niches. I hear this all of the time and in my stock trading niche if people are only staying three months then something is wrong with the product you are providing.

I offer a 30-day money back guarantee. About 10% of the people will take it. The tirekickers. But then with the rest I have over half of the paying staying over a year, I have customers who have been members for 10 years!

Probably about 20% of the customers will stay practically forever - they are the core group.

But in IM everyone says three months is average. That's the difference in the niches and why continuity makes sense as a business model in my niche and I think doesn't make a whole lot of sense to base an entire business around in internet marketing - that's why they all have to launch their courses.

[SeanyG]

Originally Posted by Folusho Orokunle

After testing this myself, I have come to this conclusion:

You need to focus on how much money you want to make and what your expenses are.

I have two membership sites that cover my business expenses. Once the revenue/membership dips, I promote it again to get to the point where it covers expenses.

Then we have products at the 37,197,397,997,1200,3000,and $5000 price range to make the big bucks.

You have to start thinking like the big boys/gals.

They focus on revenue goals, etc... How much do you want to make this month?

What are your projections?

If you made $6500 last month, what will you do to make $8500?

If continuity is $2000 this month, you need to make $6000 from regular product sales.

You can sell 20 $300 product or sell 10 $600 product...

Have you created a 1k product yet? Will your niche by a product that cost that much?

If there are no expensive products in your market, create one and see if the market will bear it.

A few years ago I went from making 15k one month to 100k the next just by putting aside the fear of selling high priced products.

Conclusion: Continuity is good, but you're not going to get rich doing it unless you're selling thousands of memberships a month... Be Blessed.

Awesome reply. Thanks for the tested feedback!

This is what I want to create as well. Keep the continuity but also sell a whole range of products as well.

Originally Posted by tradermike2008

See this is the difference in the niches. I hear this all of the time and in my stock trading niche if people are only staying three months then something is wrong with the product you are providing.

I offer a 30-day money back guarantee. About 10% of the people will take it. The tirekickers. But then with the rest I have over half of the paying staying over a year, I have customers who have been members for 10 years!

Probably about 20% of the customers will stay practically forever - they are the core group.

But in IM everyone says three months is average. That's the difference in the niches and why continuity makes sense as a business model in my niche and I think doesn't make a whole lot of sense to base an entire business around in internet marketing - that's why they all have to launch their courses.

Its fascinating how different it is from niche to niche. Thanks!

Originally Posted by lakshaybehl

I love $5/Month. Its easier on my customer's pockets. And their minds.

I've heard of this before. I want to try it! I'll test a low price point like this out.

[MemberCon]

Combination of the two models is the key. We've found that our continuity members are more likely to buy our one-time sale products so be sure to let your existing customers know about your products.

But even with a continuity program, some sort of urgency (combined with scarcity, ideally) is necessary to grow the membership.

[SeanyG]

Originally Posted by MemberCon

Combination of the two models is the key. We've found that our continuity members are more likely to buy our one-time sale products so be sure to let your existing customers know about your products.

But even with a continuity program, some sort of urgency (combined with scarcity, ideally) is necessary to grow the membership.

Solid feedback. Thanks!

Urgency is key.