Paypal Loophole Exploited

[williamtan]

I was scammed lately. By merchant exploiting Paypal "loophole".

I made a purchase online for music CDs. Paid for priority shipping (1-3 days) but no delivery after about a week.

Submitted an online ticket to the merchant and they replied overseas shipment will take about 3 weeks. Then why is there an option to choose priority shipping in the first place?

The parcel finally came a week ago. Instead of CDs which I've ordered, it was a pair of bra and pantie. Not to mention the embarrassment when I opened it up in front of my wife :P

Annoyed, I raised a dispute in Paypal.

Paypal closed the case in favour of the merchant. Reason : They will refund only if there is no shipment. They (Paypal) do not issue refund on discrepancy and/or quality of the shipped product.

So this merchant exploited Paypal's "loophole" by sending a low-cost item for the sake of shipment proof to scam buyers like us.

Are we still safe as buyers?

[Steven Wagenheim]

Wow, that is really low and scary too.

I just hope that sh*t like this doesn't catch on.

[Floyd Fisher]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Wow, that is really low and scary too.

I just hope that sh*t like this doesn't catch on.

If it does, paypal is finished.

[KimW]

There was actually a case similar to this on Judge Judy,and I think someone posted the video in the old forum. It was someone selling things on EBay and they sent the buyer a picture of the item instead of the actual item.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

If it does, paypal is finished.

Floyd, you may be right. They're going to have to change their policy.

I know, fat chance of that happening.

[Takuya Hikichi]

Wow, this is scary.

So this means if you buy something on eBay using Paypal and merchant sends you something else, you won't be able to dispute the case?

I remember hearing someone buying Xbox "box only" on eBay while thinking he's paid for the item and the buyer wasn't able to dispute with Paypal.

[e-mail2u]

Pay Pal does refund if the item is shipped, happened to me i was the seller.
Buyer bought through eBay then bypassed eBay and filed a dispute with Pay Pal stating item not as described. They made up a fake excuse thinking Pay Pal would refund on the spot.

Pay Pal ruling on this is file a dispute if the buyer win which he did they have to send via tracked shipping and supply Pay Pal with the details within 10 days to get a full refund.

Even though this was bought from eBay the buyer bypassed them directly.

so file a dispute as item not as described, win and return the item supply Pay Pal with shipping details get your money back.

Just so you know they never returned the item so i got to keep the money but they left me neg feedback which eBay will not remove.

[KimW]

Originally Posted by e-mail2u

Pay Pal does refund if the item is shipped, happened to me i was the seller.
Buyer bought through eBay then bypassed eBay and filed a dispute with Pay Pal stating item not as described. They made up a fake excuse thinking Pay Pal would refund on the spot.

Pay Pal ruling on this is file a dispute if the buyer win which he did they have to send via tracked shipping and supply Pay Pal with the details within 10 days to get a full refund.

Even though this was bought from eBay the buyer bypassed them directly.

so file a dispute as item not as described, win and return the item supply Pay Pal with shipping details get your money back.

Just so you know they never returned the item so i got to keep the money but they left me neg feedback which eBay will not remove.

When did this happen? You do know that EBay owns PayPal, right?

[williamtan]

Frankly, I was rather taken aback when Paypal closed the case this way. Even when I reinforced my appeal with picture of the (nice pair, I must admit) of bikini.

I'm even more angry on the thought that the merchant is still there scamming people and there nothing we can do?

[Todd Lamb]

How'd Paypal know they shipped it to you....sometimes you must fight fire with fire

[williamtan]

Originally Posted by Todd Lamb

How'd Paypal know they shipped it to you....sometimes you must fight fire with fire

The merchant supplied the shipping info immediately and closed the claim. Paypal sees the shipment info, and the rest is history.

[matthewd]

Originally Posted by KimW

There was actually a case similar to this on Judge Judy,and I think someone posted the video in the old forum. It was someone selling things on EBay and they sent the buyer a picture of the item instead of the actual item.

Haha, I have seen that one... here it is:

YouTube - eBay Scammer on Judge Judy

[Paul Elliott]

William, thank you for pointing this out.

Delightful video, Matthew.

Paul

[e-mail2u]

Yes i Know eBay owns Pay Pal, happened at the beginning of this month. If you bought through Pay Pal what was the item description on the Pay Pal transfer. check you Pay Pal records if the item is not as was described in the transaction then you have a case.

[Dan Ellenwood]

In a sense, Paypal is in a no win situation here. How do they know that people won't lie about what they received in the shipment? Anyone can take a picture of anything and say that is what they received in the shipment.

William, I'm not suggesting you did this, because I know you got ripped off here.

But how is paypal supposed to know who is honest and who is not?

If/when they get a number of complaints about the same seller, maybe they could reverse their ruling and give you your money back?

The only way they could do this is have some workers act as "plants" and order the item from the seller and see what they get. When the "plant" gets ripped off, then everyone gets a refund.

But then we'd probably have sellers who would rip off 50% of the people and hope they sent the real thing to the "plant" person...

[Ruth Hendrickson]

William, when you filed your dispute with PayPal, you should have claimed it as "not received or not as described." PayPal considers them to be the same. I have filed disputes with PayPal over items that were received but not as described by the seller and got a refund.

Buyers choose to file a dispute with PayPal rather than eBay because the process is easier, and there is a time requirement with eBay.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

If it does, paypal is finished.

WHY!?!?!?!? This has NOTHING to do with PAYPAL! It has to do with non swiped transactions! In otherwords, it doesn't affect PAYPAL, but an ENTIRE GROUP OF INDUSTRIES of which paypal is only a tiny part! You think paypal is large? You think Ebay is large? *****************HA***************** They are such a miniscule part! When you take into account all the little mom and pops and nearly EVERYONE on the internet doing business, they are TINY! And that isn't even counting the big guys that may not be doing business on the internet.

As for shipment!?!?!? They did NOT ship you the product! GRANTED they have proof they shipped SOMETHING, but they clearly didn't ship you what you ordered!

As for the IDIOT that sold the picture, she really is an idiot! SHE probably shipped it to get the signature also.

Steve

[Jose Delgado]

Great Video! lol

...and sorry about what happened to you William.

[williamtan]

Originally Posted by Ruth Hendrickson

William, when you filed your dispute with PayPal, you should have claimed it as "not received or not as described." PayPal considers them to be the same. I have filed disputes with PayPal over items that were received but not as described by the seller and got a refund.

Buyers choose to file a dispute with PayPal rather than eBay because the process is easier, and there is a time requirement with eBay.

The dispute was raised on item(s) received not as described. That is why I'm puzzled. Paypal's reply to me :

"Our investigation into your claim is complete. As stated in our User
Agreement, the claims process only applies to the shipment of goods. It
does not apply to complaints about the attributes or quality of goods
received. Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a
refund."

[GarrieWilson]

Even though this was bought from eBay the buyer bypassed them directly.

eBay makes people goto PayPal for complaints.

William,

Did you ask the seller? You might have gotten someone elses package.

Also, he didn't win over a loophole. He won because you claimed "not received" instead of "not as described." With "not received" the just have to show it was delivered.

It's to late now to file a complaint for "not as described" though. It's a one-time deal - I think.

Garrie

[traverus_travel_agent]

Wow, all I can say is what an "outrageous" person. WOW.

[MomOnline]

Originally Posted by Dan Ellenwood

In a sense, Paypal is in a no win situation here. How do they know that people won't lie about what they received in the shipment? Anyone can take a picture of anything and say that is what they received in the shipment.

William, I'm not suggesting you did this, because I know you got ripped off here.

But how is paypal supposed to know who is honest and who is not?

If/when they get a number of complaints about the same seller, maybe they could reverse their ruling and give you your money back?

The only way they could do this is have some workers act as "plants" and order the item from the seller and see what they get. When the "plant" gets ripped off, then everyone gets a refund.

But then we'd probably have sellers who would rip off 50% of the people and hope they sent the real thing to the "plant" person...

What a great idea. Now if only Paypal would listen!!!

[williamtan]

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

eBay makes people goto PayPal for complaints.

William,

Did you ask the seller? You might have gotten someone elses package.

Also, he didn't win over a loophole. He won because you claimed "not received" instead of "not as described." With "not received" the just have to show it was delivered.

It's to late now to file a complaint for "not as described" though. It's a one-time deal - I think.

Garrie

That was my first thought. I even suspect it might be an ill-intended employee the merchant has that sent those bizzarre items. If that's the case, that means they have violated the privacy policy.

[Chris Lockwood]

I would file a chargeback if you used a credit card, since you did not receive what you paid for. Your "item not received" complaint was correct, since you did not receive the item you bought.

I wonder why they even bothered to throw the clothes in the box- couldn't they have achieved the same result with an empty box?

[SolomonHuey]

Sorry to hear about that William.

I believe if you live in the US and the seller also does, then this could be considered mail fraud or something along those lines. I'm no legal expert, however this is one way I've heard that you can protect yourself from stuff like this.

Solomon

[SolomonHuey]

Oh hey William, just so you know the links aren't working in your signature. :P

[Bruce Wedding]

What color were the bra and panties?
LOL!

[williamtan]

Originally Posted by SolomonHuey

Sorry to hear about that William.

I believe if you live in the US and the seller also does, then this could be considered mail fraud or something along those lines. I'm no legal expert, however this is one way I've heard that you can protect yourself from stuff like this.

Solomon

True. The merchant is way too far at UK. Any legal pursuit will cost time and money which can be put into better use.

Just wanted to raise my concern over Paypal's reply to me. If that's their reply, then why is there an option to raise a dispute over discrepancy of items.

[Frank Donovan]

William

Just to clarify (and to follow up on Garrie's point)....did you try to contact the seller before opening a Paypal dispute?

Frank

[valerieSONORA]

Where did you make the purchase from? Spread the word and ruin their reputation. Otherwise they will scam and scam until someone stops them.

Report them on ripoffreport.com and scam.com and anywhere else you can think of. So if someone googles the name of the fraudulent merchant, they will see negative stories.

[derekwong28]

If you have paid using a credit card, you could try to claim a chargeback against PayPal. But if you are successful, there is a chance that PayPal may close your account.

This policy has been around for years and it does not appear to affect PayPal that much. But frankly in this situation, I would have taken up with the merchant first. It could have been a genuine mistake on their part. Now they have an advantage because they know that PayPal is on their side. However when I was a merchant, even if PayPal found in our favor, we still tried our best to settle with the customer.

By the way, there is another loophole that you should know. If PayPal finds in your favor, you will still not get your money back if there are no funds in the merchant' s PayPal account. Also PayPal does not normally deal with cases concerning non-tangible products such as websites. Therefore, for large purchases, you should use a credit card or an escrow service. When the seller insistes on using PayPal, I usually use my credit card so that I could raise a chargeback if things go wrong.

-Derek

[williamtan]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

What color were the bra and panties?
LOL!

It's pure white ... clean, not dirty ... in case you're wondering, lol.

Not sure how to deal with it ... resell it at eBay?

The bikini is the "prominent" item. Let me fully elaborate on the items in the parcel :

1. A white clean pair of bikini.
2. A old usuable Nokia phone.
3. A soft toy monkey.
4. A mocking letter.

That's all.

One clue left for me, the IMEI of the phone. Any UK warriors here who can assist to check the owner of this phone?

[Emailrevealer]

This has been going on for years. This is nothing new.

[williamtan]

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

William

Just to clarify (and to follow up on Garrie's point)....did you try to contact the seller before opening a Paypal dispute?

Frank

I did. Through their rather professional online ticketing system. But they claimed they are of good reputation and accused me of scamming them rather. As a matter of fact, they looks reputable, that's why I placed the purchase. Frankly, I couldn't believe they are the one that did it. Questions are, where is my real order? Who sent me those things? Either case, my details with the merchant is leaked/exploited.

[williamtan]

Originally Posted by derekwong28

Therefore, for large purchases, you should use a credit card or an escrow service. When the seller insistes on using PayPal, I usually use my credit card so that I could raise a chargeback if things go wrong.
-Derek

I totally agreed with that. A lesson which I've learned. With credit card purchase, consumer still stands a good chance with chargeback.

Either way, I'm learning from this incident both as a buyer and merchant. Just wanted to share with the warriors here.

[oortcloud]

wait, I think the problem here is the part
where you said you "paid for music"

j/k seriously, it's a shame you cant do business overseas for tangible goods.

[timpears]

Here is how I resolved this issue when I bought a used real estate guru book and got a few xerox copies, not even the whole book mind you. I got the same crap from PayPal that is not covered in their TOS. But I never pay from a balance, and seldom pay from the bank immediate transfer. I almost always change it to the debit card I have on file, which is a Visa, and then it becomes a Visa dispute. Not as described IS A VALID VISA DISPUTE and visa will refund my money, which they did.

I don't know how you chose to pay, and I hope it was with your credit card through PayPal, but if it wasn't, let this be a lesson, pay that way from now on. You could make a business by seling stuff and shipping crap with PayPal payments.

This schmuck that sold me the "book" was real sneaky. He was clearing out his shelves and offered the "books" in a real estate discussion group I belonged to. So I didn't have his address and he didn't put it on the package when he shipped it so I had no way to return it. But when I explained that to the credit card company they agreed that he had committed fraud and I got my money back. Being stubborn comes in handy sometimes I could have let it go when PayPal turned me down, but I belly ached to them, and it was them that told me to go to my credit card company.

Hope this has helped.

[Mark Brian]

Yes this has been going on for a long time now, I've heard a similar story about 5 years ago where the seller sent a buyer a box full of bricks.

In this case Paypal will really not know who's telling the truth. So maybe the only way you can get back to the seller is to personally file a complaint with the authorities.

[Suthan M]

Wow, i never knew this is possible through paypal, but i guess this is pretty much something that happens if you deal with physical products.

Is there no way you can open a second dispute, or just do a chargeback using your bank? Screw Paypal if they dont want to hear your case, go for the next higher authority Paypal has to listen to.. your bank.


Suthan

p/s- This is outrageous.. i still cant believe your wifey let you go scot free for buying a bunch of bra n panties online when you should be working.. :-P

[braver55b]

Talk about a lowlife merchant, that is indeed scary (just think if it was something worth a whole lot more.

That is particularly embarrassing, and could cause a spouse to be suspicious (thinking that you maybe you're having an affair or that you have a secret life and you want to actually wear them yourself.)

I'm very surprised that Paypal didn't with draw the funds from the merchant's account and rule in your favor.

I've had a dispute as a merchant and it seems that the customer is always right in their eyes.

[Chri5123]

Originally Posted by williamtan

I was scammed lately. By merchant exploiting Paypal "loophole".

I made a purchase online for music CDs. Paid for priority shipping (1-3 days) but no delivery after about a week.

Submitted an online ticket to the merchant and they replied overseas shipment will take about 3 weeks. Then why is there an option to choose priority shipping in the first place?

The parcel finally came a week ago. Instead of CDs which I've ordered, it was a pair of bra and pantie. Not to mention the embarrassment when I opened it up in front of my wife :P

Annoyed, I raised a dispute in Paypal.

Paypal closed the case in favour of the merchant. Reason : They will refund only if there is no shipment. They (Paypal) do not issue refund on discrepancy and/or quality of the shipped product.

So this merchant exploited Paypal's "loophole" by sending a low-cost item for the sake of shipment proof to scam buyers like us.

Are we still safe as buyers?

I am sure that if this sort of thing kept on happening Paypal would have to change their T's & C'S or as someone else said they are finished!

Amazing how low people go to make a quick buck!

Chris

[Curt7]

Originally Posted by e-mail2u

Pay Pal does refund if the item is shipped, happened to me i was the seller.
Buyer bought through eBay then bypassed eBay and filed a dispute with Pay Pal stating item not as described. They made up a fake excuse thinking Pay Pal would refund on the spot.

Pay Pal ruling on this is file a dispute if the buyer win which he did they have to send via tracked shipping and supply Pay Pal with the details within 10 days to get a full refund.

Even though this was bought from eBay the buyer bypassed them directly.

so file a dispute as item not as described, win and return the item supply Pay Pal with shipping details get your money back.

Just so you know they never returned the item so i got to keep the money but they left me neg feedback which eBay will not remove.

The exact same thing happened to me less than 6 months ago. Yes, Paypal will refund your money. Also, you can get a refund by filing a chargeback with your credit card company.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by KimW

There was actually a case similar to this on Judge Judy,and I think someone posted the video in the old forum. It was someone selling things on EBay and they sent the buyer a picture of the item instead of the actual item.

Yeah, that was the one where the person was selling cell phones for $200...except that when the person ordered, what they received was a PICTURE of the cell phones. Edited to add that I didn't see the YouTube posted on this thread when I wrote this.

There's got to be something that can be done about scams like this. Scamming people is illegal in most countries. Where is the merchant from?

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Chri5123

Amazing how low people go to make a quick buck!

Chris, some people get a true thrill and a sense of challenge and competition out of cheating the rest of us out of our money. It excites them that they can outsmart us and manipulate us. It's the sociopathic--and sometimes psychopathic--mindset. The "criminal" mind, if you will.

[Mike Montgomery]

That really sucks. That's the problem with paying through PayPal from your bank account.

Of course if you used a credit card through PayPal you can file a disput
with your credit card company and they will most likely rule in your favor not matter what PayPal ruled.

mx

[timpears]

I have to agree with PayPal's position. If someone can prove they shipped a product, how can PayPal determine if it was a brick or a bar of gold. Basically that is the reason for the TOS the way it is written, and they will stick to it as best they can. PayPal wants the easy way out, can you blame them? Let the bank deal with it. Push it as high as you can, or you think it is worth. You could make a case of bank or wire fraud if you wanted to. That brings up big time memories of long prison time. Maybe it is just my stubborn nature but I approach this by building my case with all the ammunition I can to support my case, and always ask to talk to the supervisor. I am sure I have had companies just give in to me to shut me up. I only do this when I believe I have been screwed, but I have been in this position enough times and found that as long as you don't give in, and always ask to talk to a higher authority you still have a chance to get what you want. Even the boss has a supervisor. So don't stop at the first level supervisor. Believe me, I have had the bosses boss decide in my favor at times.

I went through this just a few days ago with a company that was doing to charge me for some eqipment on an account that was closed. The card on file was my debit card and that would have caused a NSF so I didn't want that. I sent it back the day the box arrived to send it in, but the system told me they were going to charge me. The customer service could not or would not do anything, so I asked to talk to the supervisor. The supervisor had to think for a couple of minutes but understood my position and she took steps to stop the automoatic charge. She was very nice and helpful and I don't know if she just had more power then the first person I talked to or what, but basicly it comes down to keep asking the question until you get someone whho will give you the answer you want.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by timpears

I have to agree with PayPal's position. If someone can prove they shipped a product, how can PayPal determine if it was a brick or a bar of gold. Basically that is the reason for the TOS the way it is written, and they will stick to it as best they can. PayPal wants the easy way out, can you blame them? Let the bank deal with it. Push it as high as you can, or you think it is worth. You could make a case of bank or wire fraud if you wanted to. That brings up big time memories of long prison time. Maybe it is just my stubborn nature but I approach this by building my case with all the ammunition I can to support my case, and always ask to talk to the supervisor. I am sure I have had companies just give in to me to shut me up. I only do this when I believe I have been screwed, but I have been in this position enough times and found that as long as you don't give in, and always ask to talk to a higher authority you still have a chance to get what you want. Even the boss has a supervisor. So don't stop at the first level supervisor. Believe me, I have had the bosses boss decide in my favor at times.

I went through this just a few days ago with a company that was doing to charge me for some eqipment on an account that was closed. The card on file was my debit card and that would have caused a NSF so I didn't want that. I sent it back the day the box arrived to send it in, but the system told me they were going to charge me. The customer service could not or would not do anything, so I asked to talk to the supervisor. The supervisor had to think for a couple of minutes but understood my position and she took steps to stop the automoatic charge. She was very nice and helpful and I don't know if she just had more power then the first person I talked to or what, but basicly it comes down to keep asking the question until you get someone whho will give you the answer you want.

Well, here is what you would have to do to prove fraud in this case and it's
very easy.

Videotape yourself actually opening the box. Make sure the label is shown
where it came from. Show all receipts or whatever you have and state
the contents of what is SUPPOSED to be in the box BEFORE you open it.

Then, after you open it, read off the actual contents of the box. If
anything is not there, or if the whole thing is fraudulent, you'll have a
video record of it to present to the authorities.

[Ross Dalangin]

Wow, what an embarrassment bra and panty. What color is it? Just kidding.

Did you tried to open another dispute that you are not ordering bra and panty but a CD? Take a picture of the box because if it is just a CD then it must not a big box. There must be a sticker on the box so check on that point.

[timpears]

Steve,

Good point, but you would need to know you were going to get the wrong item prior to opening the package to have set this up. Or you would have to do this every time you got a package which I don't think is practical. It is a sad world, but this is where we have come to. I am probably showing my age, but in the 50's and 60's we were a much more trusting society but now the crooks have figured out how to take advantage of us much better. I can remember parking my car on the street in front of my house, and never locking it. But that was then.

I may sound like a broker record, but my philosophy of going up the ladder with my complaint has served me well. I get cooperation almost 100% of the time by doing that. I might not get everything I want, but usually get it all or most of it. And I don't own a video camera.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by timpears

Steve,

Good point, but you would need to know you were going to get the wrong item prior to opening the package to have set this up. Or you would have to do this every time you got a package which I don't think is practical. It is a sad world, but this is where we have come to. I am probably showing my age, but in the 50's and 60's we were a much more trusting society but now the crooks have figured out how to take advantage of us much better. I can remember parking my car on the street in front of my house, and never locking it. But that was then.

I may sound like a broker record, but my philosophy of going up the ladder with my complaint has served me well. I get cooperation almost 100% of the time by doing that. I might not get everything I want, but usually get it all or most of it. And I don't own a video camera.

Tim, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Every time you get a package
through Ebay, you go through this procedure. Yeah, I know it's a pain in
the ass but guess what?

1. You do it, make a case of it, and you win.

2. You make your system public. Meaning, you teach everybody to do it.
That's right. Package it as a product and sell it for $1.

3. Eventually, everybody is using your procedure and this crap stops.

Sounds crazy?

How do you think products like DLGuard came to be?

From a need.