This makes me want to QUIT!

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Never said I got a lot of refunds from one particular product. I have a lot of products out there and what I've noticed it people ripping them off. Never said anything about a lot of refund requests...

Mike Hill

Mike, forget it...people will read what they want to read.

And as far as the comment somebody made about being nice...trust me,
I am being nice.

[sbucciarel]

I have been banning refunders for quite awhile. I don't want to do business with someone who believes that it's ok to purchase something, keep it and still get the money back for it. If that's ok with them, they aren't who I want to be doing business with. There's also a high probability that if they refund once, they will do it again.

Refunding and then using your material in that manner ... well what can you say? They are just ripoff artists ... scammers.

Not being very well endowed with brain matter, in order to "create a product" they must rip off someone else.

[M Thompson]

Originally Posted by SurviveUnemployment

Not to be a jerk or anything, but if you're getting that many refund requests, maybe it's time to do a little quality control on your own products. People are voting with their dollars in asking for refunds, and not all of them are creeps.

Thats not what the thread is about, i don't remember the OP even saying he was getting a lot of refund requests.

What he did say that he is fed up of people copying his products and then asking for a refund.

Not to be a jerk or anything but probably best to read the post carefully (sorry couldn't resist!)

[avenuegirl]

Mike,

You are way too good.

Perhaps one possibility for the future is to consider the forced continuity membership route. It won't entirely prevent the rip-offs, but will eliminate refunds and slow down those who are looking to take the goods and run.

I really hope you don't give up teaching all together because your products are absolute gold.

[Rachel Zaouche]

Mike

Please don't let people like this cause you to stop teaching IM. I have never seen one of your products but I am sure they are worth every penny. I have had training from others on this thread though and the fact that they are backing you makes me automatically trust you.

I have to say while I know it goes on I can't believe that anyone would treat Bev or Mark so shabbily - they are two of the most generous people I have met in IM.

Unfortunately there will always be people that copy others works - the colleges are having a huge problem with students and plagiarism.

I hope that you were able to let off some steam, seen the support you have from others, and know that you are respected by the majority.

There will always be idiots in all walks of life - don't let them put a good guy down.

All the best

Rach

[Derek S]

This is not just in the internet marketing crowd. I have had this happen so many times and what really ticks me off is when they buy it and have the nerve to email you saying that your product is great but money is tight and so they would like me to honor my no questions asked refund policy.

I switched my guarantee to a double your money back CONDITIONAL guarantee and even with the conditions I receive serial refunders.

If people REALLY want their money back there is nothing we can do. As long as we sell digital goods paypal and credit card companies will never fully be on our side.

I wouldn't quite though.

[Kelly Verge]

If they're too lazy to create their own product, there are very high odds that they're too lazy to drive any significant amount of traffic to their sales page.

There will always be a few who take shortcuts, regardless of the ethics.

Personally, I get a great deal of satisfaction from helping people. There's absolutely no way I'll let these bozos that THAT from me.

[goldmind123]

I think it's time for this business to have a type of "Code of Conduct".

The problem is, thousands of newbies are introduced to this business, and nothing wrong with this, the problem is, the majority of new comers don't think about this as a "business", they are thinking it's a back street to make some quick cash...
They believe a digital product, that takes months of research and effort to be developed, is nothing to take seriously, they can rip it off, and sell it under their own name , they don't mind doing this as they know they will hardly suffer any problems,..

That's why I think it's time for this business to be regulated with clear laws and principles which make it more legitimate and straight.

[James Clark]

Mike,

I wouldn't worry to much about the refunds. It could be some kids just playing around, but it does not matter, they won't get very far. And there are ways to get even if you like. Just keep working and watch what happens.

There is some in every crowd. Keep on pushing!

Jimmy.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

I understand Mike's frustration. It isn't just the refunds, but the content thieves that are rewriting his stuff and selling it as their own that's bugging him most. The bottom line on that is that people intent on stealing and using your stuff for their profit are going to do just that, no matter what.

[Chris W. Sutton]

Hi Mike,

As you already know, there will always be people who do what you are talking about. That's the price we pay for being in this business. I have written a lot of self-help material and the same thing has happened to me. I have found my articles under different author's names, I have seen my stuff on eBay, it's just the way it is.

The one thing that we, as marketers, often forget is that there is a HUGE market out there and tons of new people are coming online every day. These people that take your stuff can't even begin to tap the internet marketing niche. We worry about staurated markets, high competition and things like that but it is really a non-issue. It might be an issue for someone who is new to the game but an experienced marketer will always find new ways to market their product and new crowds to market it to.

An ebook is just an ebook. A report is just a report. It's the personality behind it that makes it special. It's the customer service that makes it special. It's YOU caring about your customers that will keep them coming back time and again.

I certainly wouldn't allow the actions of a few people to keep me from doing that I enjoy and what is profitable. Most people like that don't understand that there is no money to be made off your methods unless they actually implement them and they are not likely to do that.

Take care!

[rancher2]

I would like to thank everyone for this post. I believe I have learned a lot from it and enjoyed reading every post, an eye opener to those of us who are still new and tech challenged.
Thanks Guys & Gals.

[MichaelHiles]

Originally Posted by goldmind123

I think it's time for this business to have a type of "Code of Conduct".

The problem is, thousands of newbies are introduced to this business, and nothing wrong with this, the problem is, the majority of new comers don't think about this as a "business", they are thinking it's a back street to make some quick cash...
They believe a digital product, that takes months of research and effort to be developed, is nothing to take seriously, they can rip it off, and sell it under their own name , they don't mind doing this as they know they will hardly suffer any problems,..

That's why I think it's time for this business to be regulated with clear laws and principles which make it more legitimate and straight.

Even more laws?

You mean the hundreds and thousands of them that already exist aren't stopping people from breaking them?

Sorry more bureaucracy and restriction isn't going to fix the problem... just like the "war on drugs".


Mike... there's no reason to quit making money when it's a matter of just staying ahead of them.

People are going to knock off products. Period. Just keep innovating and moving the market while doing as Seth Godin preaches... building your own tribe... they can't duplicate YOU.

[STKING]

I agree with other posters, the people that do copycat you...they aren't going to make it for long b/c they aren't industry leaders, like yourself.
I would only be concerned if it is seriously impacting the bottom line, meaning a majority are refund requests.
When I was new to the industry, I liked having a refund, it showed that the seller had a product they believed in, that would work for me or else I get my money back. I've had to ask for a refund only twice....again a 'overpromise, really under-deliver' situation.
I would be very frustrated with the ripping off though. Isn't there a way to protect that? It's a big risk. Legal action would most likely be a waste of your time as those that rip you off are probably not worth much to go after anyway.

Sorry about that.

I am clicking on your link to look at your products though

[Lyn Woodring]

Whether we are seasoned vets or just starting out there is one thing we all share; we are somebody's else's consumers. That is we are all consumers.
In the offline world when I'm in a business I pay attention to how well the owners treat their employees. Why?
Because their employees are somebody's else's customers and I reason, displays their view of customers/consumers in general. If they don't treat their employees with respect I don't they will their customers either.
My point?
There seems to be a geniune lack of respect by some here towards customers.
Let me give you a consumer's point of view. Even though I'm on disability and currently time doesn't equate to a dollar value it still holds value to me.
I joined two marketing membership sites over the years, both by the way very complete, but that so much information and laid out in such a way that I got lost going from one part to another. One I spent a year in and the other 6 months. Money aside what is those 18 months worth?
As a recent example I signed up for a coaching package. I usually read about something that appeals to me, read the fine print and check out the order page and let it simmer for a few days or weeks before I order. Sometime's this is just neccessary because of money issues. This particular order page had three options, one time, quarterly or monthly with the one time checked and I didn't notice that when I checked the monthly option that the yearly one time option stayed checked as well. Even when the total at checkout showed a dollar amount more, I thought that was the preminuim I was paying for the monthly option.
I have a debit card that I use for these types of purchases that is separate from my main debit card and I only keep about a hundred dollars in it. Well I took notice with an email overdraft alert from my bank! I immediately emailed support and when I hadn't heard back in 24 hours I called my bank and disputed the one time charge but not the monthly fee. $35 overdraft might not be a big deal to some but it is to me. When their support finall got back to me they seemed to think their response time was adequate. I should add when I 1st sent in the report to their support I didn't even recieve an automated reply. I have a notion that when things start out wrong they usually keep missing the mark the farther you go. I figured this was as much their fault as mine. I've learned in communication that if someone can, they will mis interpert what you say.
Anyway not a very good first impression from either of us. So I thought that a fresh start was needed and requested a refund for the monthly fee by phone explaining that I intended to resign but that I wanted to begin the process correct. They did refund and then banned me from the forum and their list. I find it interesting that while they didn't have an automated reply to their help desk they apparently do have one in place to automatically ban a consumer.
While I'm sure that they were put to extra trouble it took me about 10 days , several phone calls to both them and my bank and snail mail to the bank to get everything resolved. My time is important to me also.
A positive example is a membership that I had to cancel recently because of several monthly extra medical expenses and they kindly kept me in their membership. I have not taken advantage by using anything there and don't intend to until I can start paying again but you can be sure I'll remember them.
What I really wanted to say is more understanding is needed by both marketers and consumers.
While not completly addressing the title but somewhat related to the subject I'd like to make what I hope is a positive suggestion. At least I know it would work for me and others like me.
I have a mild to moderate brain injury that impacts memory, sequencing tasks, and odd quirks like at times spelling, other times learned repetive tasks just leave. It's like I just landed from Mars and seeing it for the first time. I wait for their return and I view it as another facet to my being. Brain injuries are much more common than you might think. I notice the NFL is taking note of concussions.
Also I read in another thread that newbies misunderstand the use of "easy" in their sales copy. According to dictionary dot com easy is described:"not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort." Or. "readily comprehended or mastered." Neither of those defintions indicates years of a learning curve. I'd say brain surgery was easy once learned but but I don't think anyone would describe it as easy.
I grew up in a culture that valued work so I don't mind work.
I'd like to see an incubator type project with testing/questionaires that reveal learning styles, apitudes, a kind of physcological profile I guess you'd call it. Then present the information in the different styles and selected niches that your apitudes reveal. I'd like to learn to build a website/blog step-by-step in an controlled environment first, in a niche I'm interested in. This "training-wheel" period could last anywhere from 6 months to a year. After an initial entrance fee, the incubator's owners could partner with the student to split from the revenues. That way both parties have an interest in success. At the end of the 'training-wheel' time the student could buy the site, the incubator owner could buy the site or they continue the partnership. Either way it would be moved separate from the project.
Maybe this idea is not feasible.
I hope nobody takes offense as I just hoped that maybe both "sides" could be a little more tolerant of the other and not assume scam.
Many thanks for this forum.
-Lyn

[nicholasb]

It can be very frustrating teaching others I go back and forth between teaching it and just doing it all the time.

While some make money and make you feel good others just want everything done for them.

[Colin Palfrey]

M Thompson: I feel for you, yesterday i got a refund request, and the reason given was.. i've learned everything I need from the book now.!!

That is really low.

Good job on remaining calm. Not sure I would have acted appropriately in that situation.

[MisterMunch]

Take the copycats as a compliment. It only proves that you teach good stuff

[yourreviewer]

Damn, I didn't realize the situation is so bad in MMO niche. I was thinking of creating a product in MMO and after reading your comments, I am having second thoughts. But again, I don't know if I should change my thinking to it's a part of life and move on.

[yourreviewer]

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I have been banning refunders for quite awhile. I don't want to do business with someone who believes that it's ok to purchase something, keep it and still get the money back for it. If that's ok with them, they aren't who I want to be doing business with. There's also a high probability that if they refund once, they will do it again.

Refunding and then using your material in that manner ... well what can you say? They are just ripoff artists ... scammers.

Not being very well endowed with brain matter, in order to "create a product" they must rip off someone else.

These guys are probably 'serial info killers' and they probably like to collect trophies.

[mr2020]

Hey mate,

INTEGRITY. That's what is TRULY going to matter in the next decade or longer.

It's too easy to steal and share INFORMATION in the "information age".

People can steal my info, but they can't steal my integrity.

And that is what truly matters. Think of it this way. As time goes on, most of the stealers will not be doing your kind of stuff, they will still be stealing from others, and going for the quick kill.

You and I will develop followers, because we will grow in our expertise, and in integrity.

Best to you,

Mr Twenty Twenty

PS: And consider developing a "niche" that can't be stolen. I am doing that now. I am "mr twenty twenty", professional visionary, ex hostage. And many of my future and current projects will be spun around "the power of vision" etc. Once you invent a niche, it's hard to steal. Maybe impossible.

[timeworks]

I understand where you are coming from. It is so frustrating to see people trying to steal your ideas. I know you are in Canada but there is one way to protect your information products.

You can register them for a copyright in your country. I do this with all of my original products. I then make sure the copyright notice is included on every page of my ebook and all of my sales copy, etc.

If you own a registered copyright in an ebook, then you have the right to bring an action against anyone who violates that copyright. For example, if someone takes your ebook and then tries to write their own from it then they are going to have a real hard time proving that it was not a derivative work of your original work.

I have had people take my ebooks and then try to rewrite them. Let me tell you I was not happy and it was evident that they changed the title and a few words here and there. The ebook was basically the same and verbatim in most areas of the ebook.

So I sent the person a "cease and desist" letter telling them that they were violating my copyright on the ebook that they copied. I informed them that I would pursue legal action and inform their web host and domain host about the copyright violation.

This occured in the US but all countries including Canada are members of the Berne Convention on copyrights. So you can register your product and enfore your rights.

You can find copies of these kinds of letters all over the internet. Most of the time the cease and desist letter works since these people have never been confronted in this manner. Most of the time, the web site suddenly disapears and they go away.

There are more ways to handle this but I will leave it at that for now. Hope this helps.

Also, sounds like you really like to teach and have a lot of good info to give. Don't let those sleazeballs ruin your desire to educate other people. Everyone on this forum benefits from other people contributing their knowledge. Good luck.

[czilbersher]

Mike, it literally makes me sick to my stomach that I have to inhabit this planet with the type of people you've described in your rant. Yes, there are so many "bottom-feeders" in this world who lack any sense of integrity, honor, initiative, or creativity and feel that they are entitled to simply take from others. I wish you well, my friend, and hope that karma will help balance any sense of justice in this world. I also hope you will continue to teach and help the many folks of quality and integrity who value and appreciate what you have to offer.

[donnyg18]

Man, What a sad story to hear. Refunding your items is not the problem here but the feeling that all your hard work is being pirated is terrible. but as you said "YOU CAN HAVE ALL THE MONEY WITH YOU BUT REMEMBER THAT YOU CANT TAKE IT WITH YOU" Goodluck!

[NyceGuy]

Hhm...it's really agonizing to sweat it out trying to make an awesome product only for some people to make it all seem worthless. Well, this is how I see it.

If you decide to shut teaching IM all together, then technically, you let them win, by calling it quits. Obviously, there is a solution to every problem, and so does this one. Only that you haven't found a solution does not mean that it will be impossible to prevent this.

So if you've done self-diagnosis and found that nothing is wrong with the product -- and this simply means, does the product deliver exactly it promised on the sales letter? -- then keep working at a multitude of other niches.

Spending energy at them will only pull you back.
As one IM guru mentioned, why would you hunt down people stealing $1000 worth of your empire when you have a whopping $1,000,000 empire to run?
So, would you take off looking for one lost sheep, and leave the entire herd by itself?

But obviously, this does not disqualify your efforts to stop them from "looting" your ideas.

[Daniel Brock]

Mike I know how you feel.

Here is a better way to look at it:

What are the chances they are going to hurt your sales later down the line?

If this person is so lazy that they need to steal a product instead of make it on their own, how likely are they to invest a decent amount of time promoting their now stolen product? How likely will they even know how to properly promote something? these people are looking for a quick buck, and will probably never make anything out of their 'business'.

Here is one solution:

Develop some software and charge a monthly licensing fee for it. That will cut down on rippers because not all of them will have the technical know how to rip a software and re-brand it as their own.

What do you think about people re-hashing your ideas?

What if someone were to buy your product, find a particular technique that you teach that they like, remake the technique with their own unique spin, and then go and make their own product out of your technique that you presented to them?

[TristanPerry]

Originally Posted by SurviveUnemployment

Not to be a jerk or anything, but if you're getting that many refund requests, maybe it's time to do a little quality control on your own products. People are voting with their dollars in asking for refunds, and not all of them are creeps.

That's probably true in some cases, but certain niches and industries are full of scammers and all. Getting refunds doesn't necessarily correlate to the quality of the product.

For example, I'm the manager/owner of a hosting company, and anyone who's ever owned/worked with a host will know that fraud is rife in this industry.

No matter whether you are a big or small company, you need to be very careful since spammers (who sign-up, pay with a hacked PayPal or CC, send out spam, and then chargeback) are everywhere in hosting (and in other industries too)

That doesn't mean that loads of hosts offer poor service hence the refunds. It means that there are a lot of moron spammers/fraudsters about

[Charann Miller]

I know how you feel.

An newbie warrior purchased my new plr package earlier this year and I had a new plr product that was to be delivered at a later date as a bonus. I hadn't even created the bonus yet which was why it was to be delivered some weeks later.

This guy purchased the product, PM'ed me within 5 minutes and said "where's the bonus product?", I told him he'd have to wait a few weeks. Half an hour later, I'm assuming after downloading the entire plr package, he posted in my WSO thread "I want a refund now thanks".

I promptly refunded the money and asked out of curiosity why he asked for one, if it was something with the product then I would appreciate any feedback allowing me to make improvements.

He said, "it's not the product but I see one person is already selling it".

I couldn't believe it, that was the whole purpose of plr products, he must have thought he could have gotten a $1,000 plus product for next to nothing, all to himself.

But it gets better, he then joins my list to be notified of my next plr product release, can you believe it?

Then I get this weird PM telling me that he's into black hat marketing and he's got some great e-books that he just got hold of and offered me the link where I could access them from.

I politely said "no thank you", I wouldn't be surprised if he had received those e-books for free by the same ill gotten gains and no doubt mine was now part of that collection. I scratched him from my list.

Moving on, I was stuck with this lovely demand for a refund request in my thread. It became a ghost town, everything went quiet.

People who were interested in purchasing my product, were naturally of course PM'ing this guy and asking exactly why he wanted a refund, he then had the cheek to say "Nothing's wrong with the product, it's a very good product but don't buy from the seller buy from me, I'll give you 50% off if you buy from me!"

I have no idea how long this had been going on but one incredible warrior PM'ed me to tell me this loser was trying to sell my product to him at a discount even after I had refunded him.

Anyhow, this fantastic warrior purchased from me despite being offered the chance to get the entire product for half the price.

I quickly reported the offending person to admin and they were banned.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, there are still great people out there despite some of the sharks circling for a freebie.

[GrantFreeman]

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

I don't have a problem with refunds but what I have a problem with is people buying my products, blatantly ripping them off and then reselling them as their own. To add insult to injury they also ask for a refund.

I guess I'm just starting to get a little annoyed with those types of people!

Mike Hill

You can't fix stupid

Keep giving value to the ones who want it. Provide service to the ones who request it. Expend your energy on these things. The productive things that help people.

The ones that are stealing your stuff have a short shelf-life on real success and are easily out performed.

G

[mmurtha]

Hey Mike,

Man, that sucks!

Sorry this is happening to you.

Some people have no couth! They don't care about things like integrity or ethics. All they want is a quick buck!

Originally Posted by jrrich814

But once refunded, the product was erased from my hard drive and deleted from the backups.

The true test of personal integrity is when you exercise it when no one is watching!
Regards,
--JR Rich

Yeah, I agree - Particularly with the bolded part!

But then again, some people have no idea what integrity means.

You would think people that do refund don't care for the product or have no use for it. Why wouldn't they erase it if this is the case. I know I do, but then I don't buy products when I don't know who I am buying from, or that aren't recommended by someone I trust.


Lyn,

Hmm ... I don't know too many people that are or would be tolerant of people stealing their work, then turning around and selling it like it was their's. To me, it has nothing to do with customer relations or customers at all, but has everything to do with down right piracy!

Thieves are not customers! They are thieves, and deserve what they get!


Mary

[Lyn Woodring]

Mary I don't want to make the same mistake that I assume you made taking one construct out of context. For the record thieves are digusting, whether that is government stealing tax dollars or those that rip off other's work. However all that I am saying is that there is two sides to an issue and as a consumer I'm presenting another angle. Take any way you want it. That is your concern not mine.
Also for the record words do mean something and forced continunity is to me like fingernails on a blackboard. And Mary this is not directed at you.
I'll give you an extreme example of force vs power: Rape is force and Love is power.
-Lyn

[free2rock]

How do you ban those kind of people? They can still come back with different email addresses.

I think it's worse if you do flipping websites. Couple of my marketing friends have been cheated many times.

[mmurtha]

Originally Posted by Lyn Woodring

Mary I don't want to make the same mistake that I assume you made taking one construct out of context. For the record thieves are digusting, whether that is government stealing tax dollars or those that rip off other's work. However all that I am saying is that there is two sides to an issue and as a consumer I'm presenting another angle. Take any way you want it. That is your concern not mine.
Also for the record words do mean something and forced continunity is to me like fingernails on a blackboard. And Mary this is not directed at you.
I'll give you an extreme example of force vs power: Rape is force and Love is power.
-Lyn

Did you read your post before you posted it? What mistake? I made no mistake, nor did I pull anything out of context. You better read your own posts again before you claim that one.

I know I read your entire post - the one I commented on, and it didn't have much to do with the OP's original post, specifically forced continunity.

If you want to give another angle on it, so be it, but other people will and do have opinions too.

Oh and Lyn, this is not directed at you.

For the record, I have no idea where the rest of your post is coming from so I have to assume it is not directed at me. If it is, then I have to assume you are having a very bad day.

[Rory Wilkinson]

Hey Mike I can understand your frustration but honestly is it worth it?

I mean sure there are people like that but I am sure there are thousands more people who truly do appreciate your work and because of you have a better lifestyle.

Also when you think about it, the people that just copy your stuff and sell it never make the money, they just move from one B.S scam to the next.

Don't waste your thoughts on them man.

[badfun]

It's the 'China' method Mike! But I agree with what Steve Waggenheim says; you are still going to outmarket these guys and stay on top.

That and yes, you should keep some of your secrets to yourself.
brent

[TimCastleman]

Check out the no refund policy in my latest WSO

You can't have a steak and eat it to

Let me be blunt - you can't go to a restaurant, buy a steak, eat it, and then come back the next day with a bag of crap and ask for your money back.

Here is my refund policy - I don't give them. No exceptions. If you can't live with that you've just wasted your time and mine. It's not that my stuff doesn't work, it's just that I don't deal with scammers and chronic refunders.

If you're not a scammer, it shouldn't be an issue. This might cost me a few sales but it will save my heart and my head from hurting.

Pretty clear right? But I still got a refund request for someone from it. Said he never downloaded the product - checked it and yes he did. Also said it wasn't an SEO guide - show me where I say it was.

So I am not going to give him a refund and if he pushes the issue, he is getting banned.

Tim

[mallinc]

Waiting period might work well. Allows a means for legit refunds and many of the non legit ones might forget about it.