This makes me want to QUIT!

[Mike Hill]

This is more of a rant than anything else and it really makes me want to quit teaching Internet marketing all together and become selfish with my methods and ideas.

All of the products I create have been created from my own experiences and success with Internet marketing, making me thousands of dollars a month like clockwork.

Lately I have noticed that people purchase my products, ask for a refund 2 minutes later and then proceed to map out the entire idea, examples and methods in their own product a few weeks later.

Now there is nothing stopping these people from doing this but you would think that their own integrity would mean more to them than money...

So as it stands now I ban all refunders... kick them off my lists and never allow them to do business with me again - ever!

PLUS... Over the next few weeks I will be seriously thinking about quiting *teaching* Internet marketing all together and just concentrating on growing my own business past the 6 figure level. If you are already a customer or client you have nothing to worry about because I will continue to provide the same excellent service as promised.

Just in case these types of people are reading this: You can make all the money in the world but just in case you forgot... you cannot take it with you.

Mike Hill

[Jeremy Kelsall]

Mike, we've had the same thing happen to us on a few occasions...

Don has been banning refunders for over 6 months now, I believe.

[Brad Gosse]

I know how frustrating dealing with certain people can be.

In my experience it's easier to be the first and best than it is to worry about copycats too much.

I have a goal to help 1000 people become millionaires and I love teaching. I would have a hard time giving up helping people. I love it too much.

[M Thompson]

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

This is more of a rant than anything else and it really makes me want to quit teaching Internet marketing all together and become selfish with my methods and ideas.

All of the products I create have been created from my own experiences and success with Internet marketing, making me thousands of dollars a month like clockwork.

Lately I have noticed that people purchase my products, ask for a refund 2 minutes later and then proceed to map out the entire idea, examples and methods in their own product a few weeks later.

Now there is nothing stopping these people from doing this but you would think that their own integrity would mean more to them than money...

So as it stands now I ban all refunders... kick them off my lists and never allow them to do business with me again - ever!

PLUS... Over the next few weeks I will be seriously thinking about quiting *teaching* Internet marketing all together and just concentrating on growing my own business past the 6 figure level. If you are already a customer or client you have nothing to worry about because I will continue to provide the same excellent service as promised.

Just in case these types of people are reading this: You can make all the money in the world but just in case you forgot... you cannot take it with you.

Mike Hill

I feel for you, yesterday i got a refund request, and the reason given was.. i've learned everything I need from the book now.!!

I had another last week who asked me to cancel his subscription for him, i politely replied with the link where he could do it and he sent an email back to me calling me every name under the sun.

I just console myself with the knowledge that some people will never be successful. Karma is a powerful tool.

(istill got to learn to not take it personally!)

On the subject of copying stuff , one of my demo niches has become one of the most copied niches i've ever seen. (I still rank #1 though....(take that Bozo's)

I've seen methods I created used in various reports and one guy even took a donation ware program i had and boasted how he had made $250,000 with it.... never donated a single cent!

Bitter??....nah lifes too short

[mark z]

Sorry to hear you had such "customers".
Unfortunately, I guess, we all have to deal with it.

Yes, it is sad that such kind of people do not appreciated someone`s hard work at all. I suggest you to not get too upset about it as those kind of people would never be able to achieve their goals (neither become real competition) just because of their lack of integrity.
Wish you to have as many regular customers, so such (mis)users won`t distract you from your good work.

[TimCastleman]

Why not stop offering refunds? I do that. I am sure it cost me a few sales but it also keeps those types away from me.

Tim

[jrrich814]

I've purchased many IM products that I've had to turn around and ask for a refund later. Usually because the sales letter "Over Promised and Under Delivered".

But once refunded, the product was erased from my hard drive and deleted from the backups.

The true test of personal integrity is when you exercise it when no one is watching!

Regards,
--JR Rich

[Adam Carn]

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Just in case these types of people are reading this: You can make all the money in the world but just in case you forgot... you cannot take it with you.

Mike Hill

When you genuinely try your best to help and you do help a lot of people it does get to you when you just get used. It's life draining. And I agree with your above quote.

Thanks,
Adam

[TMG Enterprises]

I think it's pathetic that people do this, particularly idiots who swipe the techniques and then build their "own" product with them. However, I hope you guys have a way of separating legitimate refund requests from the ones that are so clearly a rip-off. I have rarely asked for a refund but when I have, I always tell the person exactly why I am asking for it. I would hate to have to worry about asking for a refund and being banned from that person's products for life.

Tina

[andrew_writes]

I totally understand.

From a different perspective, I usually have clients that need things built or created like websites, content etc but my rant is how they expect free service for cheap prices.

I usually discount things for new clients but most seem to think the discount extends to other aspects of whatever service I'm performing for them.

They try to steal my time and take my kindness as a weakness.

This makes me not want to do services and just take what I know and apply it to my own business.

Actually, I've been building a system that allows me not to even be bothered with freebie seekers and the like by having them pay a consultation or booking fee just to talk to me, contact me or even request a service in the first place.

I've even gotten so tired of help desk spam that I've made my help system a members only area that can only be accessed if you have made a purchase, after all, help is for customers right?

I know my situation is different but I understand.

Many claim that marketers all advantageous but mostly those of us who truly work hard are being taken advantage of.

[M Thompson]

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I think it's pathetic that people do this, particularly idiots who swipe the techniques and then build their "own" product with them. However, I hope you guys have a way of separating legitimate refund requests from the ones that are so clearly a rip-off. I have rarely asked for a refund but when I have, I always tell the person exactly why I am asking for it. I would hate to have to worry about asking for a refund and being banned from that person's products for life.

Tina

I have no problems with genuine refund requests, in fact on occasions when it's due to hardship I've done stuff to help the refunder out.

What is soul destroying is people who you help out (I can show you 30 page email conversations) who then 59 days later make up some excuse to get a refund. Or people who feel they need to justify the reason so write some crap in the refund request that is blatantly untrue.

[Bev Clement]

Mike, I know what you mean. I helped someone over the course of a few months. It was free, just sending them answers to their questions to help them start their business, and then move it on. Seems they kept the emails and put them onto video and now sells it as their own course.

It is one reason I am careful who I help these days.

[pierro]

Hi mike, I understand fully. I am a newbie to internet marketing and I can't stress enough on how frustrating it can be when you have a majority of people looking for free stuff, not to mention , your ppc campaigns budget shot to the roof! A business can't survive like this, you are in business not only for the money, but also giving people a quality product they can use and make money out of, but unfortunately may people don't understand this.
This is my view of the situation; If you know you will be successful in your chosen field, then you fork out the cash and get what you need to aid you in your endeavors.
But for those that have doubts, they are always looking for free stuff.
I know I will be successful one day, so I always pay for what I need for my success.
I just wish that the majority was the same.
By the way, what is your product about and how much do you charge?
Cheers, pierro

[Phil Leotardo]

Why give up helping people? I'm sure you must know there will always be people that will buy and ask for a refund. It's all in the game.

I seriously research the person I may buy products from. I have read most of Jeremy's and Don's posts and bought after I wanted to learn more from them. I am presold before I even look at their sales page of any given product.

Don't let the people who ask for refunds grind you down. If your stuff offers value, you will always wind up ahead in the end. The people that buy and return right away are always going to be in the minority because I believe the majority of people are basically decent.

I can also tell you that if a product has a "no refund" policy, I will still buy because of the research I do beforehand. I don't think I am in the minority, either.

[Scott Ames]

Hopefully the ones that do that are a small minority, but they can really make one angry.

I think I would mess with them once I found out their sales page. First I would buy and refund right away. Then I would examine their sales page for any false claims and ... {stop}

Ok I'm not going to tell all my secrets.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Here's how you fix the problem, something I figured out a long time ago:

I give a refund for any reason, or no reason. Then I let it go and I don't think about it any further and I don't waste any more time on it. Instead, I choose to spend my time on my legitimate, loyal, paying customers and NOT on losers who will never convert into what I would consider a "good" customer.

I'm about building relationships, and freebie seekers aren't. Therefore, we're not compatible, so I don't waste my time worrying about it.

[jrrich814]

Originally Posted by andrew_writes

I totally understand.

From a different perspective, I usually have clients that need things built or created like websites, content etc but my rant is how they expect free service for cheap prices.

I usually discount things for new clients but most seem to think the discount extends to other aspects of whatever service I'm performing for them.

They try to steal my time and take my kindness as a weakness.

This makes me not want to do services and just take what I know and apply it to my own business.

Actually, I've been building a system that allows me not to even be bothered with freebie seekers and the like by having them pay a consultation or booking fee just to talk to me, contact me or even request a service in the first place.

I've even gotten so tired of help desk spam that I've made my help system a members only area that can only be accessed if you have made a purchase, after all, help is for customers right?

I know my situation is different but I understand.

Many claim that marketers all advantageous but mostly those of us who truly work hard are being taken advantage of.

Andrew,
This is why I tend to avoid freebies and bonuses in any promotion that I do. I want the purchaser of my services to hire ME, because of what I DO, not because they just want to grab up a bunch of free ebooks!

Yes, I know that bonuses increase conversion rates and all that, but eliminating them does tend to filter out the "Looky-Loos" and bonus hunters.

Of course, I'm an autoresponder copywriter so my promotions are quite a bit different than the normal IM sale - but still...

I read an article some time ago from one marketer who said he never offers freebies or refunds of any kind and actually saw an increase in his income! Probably since he got rid of the refund-seekers and his income level sort of evened-out.

Could be worth testing.

Regards,
--JR Rich

[Fernando Veloso]

Just this week I've asked my first refund - the script unfortunately didn't work in my WinVista64 - so i just shoot a PM to seller explaining what was the problem and asking for the refund. My first one.

But i understand what you're saying Mike.

When i sold my Offline WSO i had a guy who bought it at 13.02 and one minute later asked for a refund cause... it was not as advertised.

lol?

He didn't had time to read it OR go over the 20 minutes video

Now for the copycaters,

I understand why more and more senior Warriors don't share their ideas and methods, both for free or in WSO's, and they just come here to "chat".

It's not worth it anymore.

Fernando

[tommen]

It is only a very small percent who do this, buy something and then ask for a refund one minute later.The majority of people are honest.I guess this comes with the profession.It´s unfortunate but what can you do about it.

Some people buy a product and then use social bookmarking to make it available across the internet, that is something I cannot understand.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

If instant refunders bother you, you may want to put in a requirement that they wait some fixed amount of time to request a refund, perhaps 7 days. State in your sales material that it in order to be successful it would take most folks at least 7 days for them to read, process, and learn from your product and to try the techniques taught, therefore no refunds will be offered until 7 days after the sale date.

Explain that this protects both the buyer and seller.

[Laura B]

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

If instant refunders bother you, you may want to put in a requirement that they wait some fixed amount of time to request a refund, perhaps 7 days. State in your sales material that it in order to be successful it would take most folks at least 7 days for them to read, process, and learn from your product and to try the techniques taught, therefore no refunds will be offered until 7 days after the sale date.

Explain that this protects both the buyer and seller.

I was just thinking of doing something like that! Having just released my first digital info product, I'm a little concerned about the refunders. So I thought I might even put a longer period, like a month.

I wonder if it would work to cut it off again at some later point? Such as No refunds before 30 days or after 60 days. (or 90?)

Does anyone see problems with that approach that I don't?

[Hyaku_Man]

Don't feel bad about dropping or reducing your involvement in the IM niche. Why not make your money using the techniques you teach in the products, in other niches? Whatever makes the most money with the least headaches sounds like the best option to me.

The IM niche is full of dirt, piracy, all that.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Mike, here's something that I hope will make you feel a little bit better
about the people who steal your stuff and pass it off as their own.

These people don't have the smarts to market on their own, so the number
of people they're going to reach with their product is going to be minimal and
probably won't cut into your market much, if at all.

Plus, you can always do a counter attack. I won't go into the details here
because I don't want to give the "wrong" type of people any ideas to
counter your counter attack. If you want my game plan, just PM me and
I'll tell you exactly what to do.

Of course as a smart guy, you probably know already.

This way, you can actually increase your own sales and sink the
other guy's campaign in the process.

[AnniePot]

How about protecting your digital products with something like:

Lock & Disable Files, Software and eBooks Remotely Using Remote Locker

To quote from their sales page:

Remote Locker is a unique system that enables you to instantly disable access to your digital products from your own unique control panel.

I've used it for a while and it works for me

[TelegramSam]

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

If instant refunders bother you, you may want to put in a requirement that they wait some fixed amount of time to request a refund, perhaps 7 days. State in your sales material that it in order to be successful it would take most folks at least 7 days for them to read, process, and learn from your product and to try the techniques taught, therefore no refunds will be offered until 7 days after the sale date.

Explain that this protects both the buyer and seller.

This would be illegal.

------------------------

Different niches tend to have different refund rates all things being equal.

I think the make money in IM probably has a much higher likelihood of refunding than How to Train Your Dog niche etc...

Also, the niches where people can copy or "modify" your product and then do it themselves is too tempting for some scum bags.

Physical products tend to have a lower refund rate generally and this is another reason why many g u r u 's now package their products into a BIG box.

Human nature that people like to have "stuff".

Sam

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

This would be illegal.

Can you explain? I'd like to know more, since it isn't illegal to completely deny a refund, how is it illegal to offer a refund but only during a certain period of time after the purchase?

[Johnathan]

If it's any consolation, I've learned that refunds are just a part of doing business. I have exactly the same thing happen, whereby someone purchases a product then wants a refund later.

I think you are taking it personally, and not as a business. I used to take it very personally, and in fact on occassion would fight back and forth (one guy literally lied about not getting the product, and I ended up spending probably 10 hours over 2-3 days 'fighting' to keep a $30 sale... :P When I stopped and thought about it, I realized $30/10 hours = $3.00/hour... and it wasn't really worth my time... And... I actually ended up giving him a refund :P)...

Focus on increasing your volume, as opposed to worrying about the individual sale. Yes, those guys that do that are idiots, and you want to confront them face to face and say 'wtf'... been there, done that, but it is not worth your time/worry/heartache, etc, etc. Definitely not worth worrying about quitting your business over. Focus on the 'good' people, and focus on growing your business.

Also:

One thing you should look at... Why are these people doing it? It may actually be a blessing in disguise. If you have a large number of people requesting a refund, most likely somehow you are not convincing them in your sales letter that they are getting 'real' value for their money... So while they may see 'some' value in your product/service (that is why they are copying it) -- they don't think it is worth "that" much so that is why they request a refund... So you might either consider re-writing your sales copy, or, lowering the price of whatever product/service you have, so that they don't feel the 'need' to get a refund.

You'd be surprised how many people would ask for a refund for say a $49.95 product because it is "expensive", versus say a $10 product which is inexpensive enough that it 'doesn't really matter'.

[Mike Hill]

I don't have a problem with refunds but what I have a problem with is people buying my products, blatantly ripping them off and then reselling them as their own. To add insult to injury they also ask for a refund.

I guess I'm just starting to get a little annoyed with those types of people!

Mike Hill

[Trader54]

With digital products refunds are a part of the business.

One way to cut the refund percent is to make it a physical product.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

This would be illegal.

FYI:

I'm going to have to do more research, but after your post I called the FTC directly to ask about this. They referred me to a supervisor who researched it for me while I waited on the line, and according to the supervisor, the FTC has no current guides which would prevent enacting a reasonable waiting period before a refund is issued.

As always: YMMV, I'm not an attorney, do your own research, consult a lawyer, etc.

[Kay King]

I think people get carried away arguing about refunds - and I don't this thread is about refunds.

Lately I have noticed that people purchase my products, ask for a refund 2 minutes later and then proceed to map out the entire idea, examples and methods in their own product a few weeks later.

Now there is nothing stopping these people from doing this but you would think that their own integrity would mean more to them than money...

You are dealing with people who don't know what "integrity" is and wouldn't care if they did. They think if they read something, they now "know it" and can pass it on. They have no experience or ideas of their own so must pirate them from others.

It happens a lot in IM - in threads, in WSO's and in ebooks. It's info-incest.

kay

[Steven Wagenheim]

People, people, how about READING the OP.

Mike is NOT bitching about refunds.

He's bitching about people selling HIS stuff as their own and on TOP of it
asking for a refund. Hell, I think Mike would be pissed off if they didn't
refund it but still ripped it off.

Why do people ONLY want to read what THEY want to read?

No wonder there is so much fricken misunderstanding in this world.

[Mari_Quint]

Sorry to hear about your situation. You should not let it discourage you. They may try to copy your product, but they will ultimately fail because they don't have the same reputation as you. They're also likely to not have the same level of skill as you do in terms of writing sales copy or creating the product.

Maybe you should try bringing your skills to enter a different niche. A niche where there's not as many sketchy customers. The IM niche can be filled with unsavory people at times.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Why do people ONLY want to read what THEY want to read?

Sorry, I was reading this part:

Lately I have noticed that people purchase my products, ask for a refund 2 minutes later and then proceed to map out the entire idea, examples and methods in their own product a few weeks later.

Now there is nothing stopping these people from doing this but you would think that their own integrity would mean more to them than money...

So as it stands now I ban all refunders... kick them off my lists and never allow them to do business with me again - ever!

Which would be very unfortunate for people with legitimate refund requests.

[ramone_johnny]

You know Im seeing more and more warriors posting their displeasure of either being ripped off or burnt by others on this forum that it makes me feel that there should be a dedicated private "genuine honest decent members" section through some sort of invite system only.

*shrug

[talfighel]

There are a lot of people who buy a product from someone else with the intention of COPYING what they have to offer and their 2nd intention is to ask for a refund.

There are other times that people buy good and solid courses and when they figure out that they have to do the work to succeed, the ask for a refund or even worse, they email you and call you all the BAD names in the book.

I have seen a lot of people copy other people's sites and sell it as their own.

Tal

[TMG Enterprises]

I don't have a problem with refunds but what I have a problem with is people buying my products, blatantly ripping them off and then reselling them as their own. To add insult to injury they also ask for a refund.

Is there any possibility of going after them for copyright infringement? Perhaps showing their host the email receipt showing that they bought your product before putting up their "own"?

Losers like that deserve everything you can heap upon them.

Tina

[TSDMike]

I have a question... in your opinion, is it unreasonable or unethical to set your refund policy to require the buyer to keep the product for at least a week (or any specific length of time)?

The thought behind this is the fact that any legitimate refund request is going to be after an honest review of the material. It also might deter scammers.

Just a thought.

[Phil Leotardo]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

People, people, how about READING the OP.

Mike is NOT bitching about refunds.

He's bitching about people selling HIS stuff as their own and on TOP of it
asking for a refund. Hell, I think Mike would be pissed off if they didn't
refund it but still ripped it off.

Why do people ONLY want to read what THEY want to read?

No wonder there is so much fricken misunderstanding in this world.

This commentary of yours is a gross generalization and trivialized certain people's inputs in this thread that were meant to be helpful. Obviously, you feel strongly about it because you felt the need to capitalize certain words to emphasize your point.

I've read enough of your posts to realize that you think that you are the voice of reason and some sort of Yoda on this forum. But maybe you should relax a little and try to be nice.

[LB]

Unfortunately, this is NOT just an "internet marketing" i.e. how to make money phenomenon.

I spent a lot of money on lawyers shutting down a guy who was selling copies of my products about a year ago. He actually rewrote some of it, but it was obvious copyright infringement.

Turns out the guy purchased all my products and didn't refund them...he chargebacked all his purchases with me...

It happens all the time.

[bethrobinson]

Please make sure that if you are going to set up a policy that someone who asks for a refund can never ever buy anything from you ever again that you make it VERY clear up front.

Among my many (too many?) purchases, I've asked for refund on a couple things that weren't what I expected and one where I changed my business model a few days after and had no need for anymore. But I still respected the sellers and would potentially want to purchase products from them in the future, especially when they keep coming out with new stuff.

I would have hated to find out I was no longer permitted to when the time came (and it already has for at least one of them).

[Johnathan]

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

I don't have a problem with refunds but what I have a problem with is people buying my products, blatantly ripping them off and then reselling them as their own. To add insult to injury they also ask for a refund.

I guess I'm just starting to get a little annoyed with those types of people!

Mike Hill

Oh, I see. When you said 'map out the entire idea, etc' -- I understood that they were simply putting into practice what you taught.

If they are actually outright ripping you off, it is a fairly easy process to get them removed. As well, making a sale is actually more work than it may seem. So perhaps it might be a bit of a consolation knowing that although they may rip off your product and resell it as their own, they probably have no clue how to market effectively. Plus, they might be afraid of 'getting caught', and surprisingly it is fairly stressful to constantly rip of someone elses stuff. (They need to spend hours to set up a website, only to have you, with 2-3 minutes work, contact their webhost and tell them they ripped it off, to then have them shut down). That can be very stressful.

Johnathan

[travlinguy]

I've had my share of complaints lately about the people the 'fast-money digital info product' market seems to attract. And when I thought about it, it occurred to me that many people of this demographic cut their teeth online downloading copyrighted intellectual property for free in the name of 'file sharing.' That was back in the day of free warez sites as well.

I refer to this crowd as the skateboard generation. And for the record, I don't believe they are all thieves and also realize that people of any age might be willing to pinch a product if it's easy enough.

With that said, I've been searching outside the 'info product' niche as many here see it and looking for markets where the drive by pirates are less likely to lurk. There are actually lots of good opportunities out there with buyers not looking to GRAB 'cash-sucking, stealth-ninja-assassin, autopilot’ products and instant, effortless success.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by bethrobinson

Please make sure that if you are going to set up a policy that someone who asks for a refund can never ever buy anything from you ever again that you make it VERY clear up front.

That's a good point. I'd never buy anything from anyone with such a policy if I knew that was the case.

[kentaiwan98]

So it seems there a number of ways you can circumscribe (if not entirely) the problem of refunding:
1. impose a waiting period.
will that stop everyone?
2. eliminate refunds altogether.
what about chargebacks?
3. increase your sales to offset this
4. increase your pricing/quality/format
5. use lock and disable...? probably not entirely safe. does it work with pdfs?

I've been facing a similar type of issue offline recently, but haven't satisfactorily solved the issue at all. But I would suspect that one or two carefully selected strategies would eliminate all but the most legitimate refunding.

Kenneth

[SurviveUnemployment]

Not to be a jerk or anything, but if you're getting that many refund requests, maybe it's time to do a little quality control on your own products. People are voting with their dollars in asking for refunds, and not all of them are creeps.

[kentaiwan98]

Originally Posted by SurviveUnemployment

Not to be a jerk or anything, but if you're getting that many refund requests, maybe it's time to do a little quality control on your own products. People are voting with their dollars in asking for refunds, and not all of them are creeps.

Yes, it is a good point. Check your quality, check your market, check your pricing, check your sales techniques... why are you getting refund requests?

It could be that you are selling the wrong product to the wrong market at the wrong price. Or some combination thereof.

Kenneth

[kentaiwan98]

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

That's a good point. I'd never buy anything from anyone with such a policy if I knew that was the case.

But how would they know? Would they even care? Can't they just fake another email address, name, IP, etc.?

[TMG Enterprises]

I don't believe that you will ever completely eliminate the problem. No matter how tight you make the security, those who want to rip you off badly enough will find a way. You can't put that much energy into trying to completely stop it or it will eat you alive and make you paranoid. You simply do what you can to keep it to a minimum.

In Mike's case, there is someone (perhaps more than one?) who has actually tried to use the material as his own which is far worse than just being a freebie seeking serial refunder. I know that it is often more expensive than it is worth to take legal action but that is what this leech deserves.

Tina

[Mike Hill]

Originally Posted by SurviveUnemployment

Not to be a jerk or anything, but if you're getting that many refund requests, maybe it's time to do a little quality control on your own products. People are voting with their dollars in asking for refunds, and not all of them are creeps.

Never said I got a lot of refunds from one particular product. I have a lot of products out there and what I've noticed it people ripping them off. Never said anything about a lot of refund requests...

Mike Hill