Do this and you could be losing list members...

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by reikejan

Newbie to the list here - with a question. If I offer a free report/something, don't you assume you would have to opt in? How else do I capture emails to build my list?

I offer a free report (real estate stuff) that then goes to an upsell. Is this offensive to you? Do I have to tell you in my email that 1) you have to opt in to get the free report and 2) once you do that, you will be redirected to an upsell page? If I don't disclose this to you, will you be offended?

Purely from my personal perspective, it depends on HOW you make the offer. Tell me I can get your report by going to a page, and I pretty much expect a squeeze page. Tell me you have a gift for me, and I expect no strings attached - including an opt-in.

As far as the upsell, it depends on the execution. If you make a straight up offer, I'll take it at face value and either buy it or not. Try to apply pressure, or insult me, and then yes, I will be offended.

For example, when you make your upsell, if you tell me I'm being offered a special deal because I've indicated interest in what you sell and you already have my attention (thus saving the cost of marketing to me again), we're cool.

Make me click one of those "Yes, I realize I'm a moron for passing up your offer, and I know I'll die broke and broken because of it, but I'm just an idiot freebie hunter who wants to rob your kids of their future" links and not only will I be offended, I won't bother with your freebie. I'll just go back and unsubscribe immediately.

Bottom line, treat me with respect, and we have a chance of doing business. Insult me, and you're dead to me.

[reikejan]

Thanks for these comments - they make tons of sense (and are pretty obvious).
Let me see if I understand correctly
1. You are new to me. You get to my opt-in page for the free report and you opt in.
2. You are redirected to a page that says thanks, your report will arrive shortly. In the meantime, have a look at this cool offer (or something like that).
3. You are redirected to an upsell page. No threats or inducements, simply telling you about the product and giving you the chance to buy. No implications on your personality or your family - just buy or not.
4. You are not offended because of this. Right?

[Alminc]

Being involved in this internet marketing game for a couple
of years, I do not expect anything else in other marketers'
emails but all imaginable tricks to make me sign up or purchase.

Now there are better constructed emails and those really bad ones.
I save the better ones in a special folder on my hard drive
to study them and reverse engineer them for my own email
marketing. The bad ones are deleted and I eventually unsubscribe
from such lists.

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

I really hate this obvious ploy of sending out an email with an "accidental" bad link, then sending a follow-up a few minutes later saying, "Oops - here's the correct link, my bad." How smarmy can you get?

Ha Hah, and I thought this was an honest mistake.

Did not know this was a tactic, never worked on me, just simply deleted the "bad" email without reading it.

The 13 th Warrior

[The 13th Warrior]

Some tactics whether deceptive , greyhat, novice or trustworthy , obviously makes some money.

But what counts to you , may not count to someone else.

Folks with good , useful content and transparency of offers usually win me over.

Maybe deceptive, meatmarket tactics may work in the short term, for quick cash.

Tactics that have excellent transparency may still not work if the market or product is incorrect.

The question becomes, how long can someone survive with and continue to make money with such tactics?

Can someone be a long-time moneymaker with tactics that treat his customers or list like a diary cow, simply something to be milked with no care of how and what information is presented and the usefulness of such content to his list?

I think if folks on your list is perceiving that you view them as a WHORE to be used then to be passed around to your friends(JV) and sucked dry, maybe it works for some and not for others.

I don't think you want to give your list that feeling, because can you ever get that trust back...?

Like catching your betrothed cheating on you , that trust is next to impossible to get back, or at least, nothing is going to be the same way ever again.

I can tell once I get that feeling, I unsubscribe, and the bad ones show their tactics in 1-2 emails.

Most like to be sold without being sold to, including me, hence, the principle of " Pre-Selling " being hammered home lately in most courses.

The 13 th Warrior

[Chris Pambos]

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Did he ever tell you it would be a direct download? If not, I'd say you're the problem. You're the one who decided to make an assumption based on nothing. What's next, whining because he didn't tell you your free gift wouldn't arrive in the mail?

I agree with Black Hat Cat, the fact that you start a thread whining about what you find wrong with email marketing is really a waste of time. To many individuals these days tend to whine in the IM discussion forum constantly that clogs the forum up.

[Chris Pambos]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

We need a thread ranting about ranters...

WF needs to create a 'rant' forum!

[John Cabral]

Originally Posted by reikejan

Thanks for these comments - they make tons of sense (and are pretty obvious).
Let me see if I understand correctly
1. You are new to me. You get to my opt-in page for the free report and you opt in.
2. You are redirected to a page that says thanks, your report will arrive shortly. In the meantime, have a look at this cool offer (or something like that).
3. You are redirected to an upsell page. No threats or inducements, simply telling you about the product and giving you the chance to buy. No implications on your personality or your family - just buy or not.
4. You are not offended because of this. Right?

I would not be offended with that as you are not trying to be sneaky or underhanded. I expect you to try to sell me something sooner or later. After all that is why we get involved in IM.

I just don't feel you need to restort to trickery to do it.

Treat your list members with respect and they will follow you for a long like.

Instead of using the hey here is you free gift download which really is just an optin page to someone's else list, say hey I came across xyz that I think you mind be interested in.

I don't find it all that complicated.

[John Cabral]

Those of you who seem to view this post as rant are probably engaging in the very same techniques.

Purpose of post was to point out how list owner can be hurting themselves using trickery tactics.

In the long run I see it doing more harm than good. What good is it to build your list only to have the masses unsubscribe and you constantly scrambling to add new subscribers. Seem counterproductive to me. But then again its my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by reikejan

Thanks for these comments - they make tons of sense (and are pretty obvious).
Let me see if I understand correctly
1. You are new to me. You get to my opt-in page for the free report and you opt in.
2. You are redirected to a page that says thanks, your report will arrive shortly. In the meantime, have a look at this cool offer (or something like that).
3. You are redirected to an upsell page. No threats or inducements, simply telling you about the product and giving you the chance to buy. No implications on your personality or your family - just buy or not.
4. You are not offended because of this. Right?

For me, personally, that is correct.

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by John Cabral

Here is another deceptive email

I do totally see your point on that email.

Are you really not making that much or you just B.S.ing?

[ktmurf]

I've been noticing a few of the opt ins that I get have been using stuff like "Notification of Paypal payment" blah blah blah.

Get me all excited and then BAM! Let me down with your Tom-foolery!

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by John Cabral

Those of you who seem to view this post as rant are probably engaging in the very same techniques.

Purpose of post was to point out how list owner can be hurting themselves using trickery tactics.

In the long run I see it doing more harm than good. What good is it to build your list only to have the masses unsubscribe and you constantly scrambling to add new subscribers. Seem counterproductive to me. But then again its my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.

Like I said I totally see your opinion on that
email, heck I probably sent it out to my list.

So, you have me there.

Here's some thoughts:

I think alot of times people make chooses via lead flow.

Less lead flow - more picky.
more leads - less picky.

Oh, course this is a general statment. But, think about this.

If you are getting 1,000's of leads a day would losing a few
hundred a day really be a bother? If you know that you can
send an email and get X amount of clicks on AVG. and know
that the email that you send will generate X dollars per click.

If you just look at the numbers - it might just make sense.

Not saying this thinking is right or wrong. Everyone
has different business models.

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by Chris Pambos

I agree with Black Hat Cat, the fact that you start a thread whining about what you find wrong with email marketing is really a waste of time. To many individuals these days tend to whine in the IM discussion forum constantly that clogs the forum up.

Now there's an intelligent response to the OP...not!

Why is it that some marketers immediately jump all over threads like this calling the OP and anyone not agreeing with them whiners, haters, and so forth?

Besides building up your post count a couple of notches, why don't you contribute something of value to express why you disagree with him?

Otherwise your comments just clog up threads with meaningless drivel that attack the poster rather than add any intelligence to the discussion.

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by mbacak

Like I said I totally see your opinion on that
email, heck I probably sent it out to my list.

So, you have me there.

Here's some thoughts:

I think alot of times people make chooses via lead flow.

Less lead flow - more picky.
more leads - less picky.

Oh, course this is a general statment. But, think about this.

If you are getting 1,000's of leads a day would losing a few
hundred a day really be a bother? If you know that you can
send an email and get X amount of clicks on AVG. and know
that the email that you send will generate X dollars per click.

If you just look at the numbers - it might just make sense.

Not saying this thinking is right or wrong. Everyone
has different business models.

Now you're making good sense - and validating the method as viable IF, you're testing, tracking and proving the data supports it. And you added a solid qualifier - new leads.

I'd hazard a guess though that more often than not, few marketers really test it - they just do it because others say it works. And they are not just applying it to new leads - they're applying it to existing lists without segregating known buyers, etc.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to give away known buyers in the first place in exchange for new unproven leads.

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Now you're making good sense - and validating the method as viable IF, you're testing, tracking and proving the data supports it. And you added a solid qualifier - new leads.

I'd hazard a guess though that more often than not, few marketers really test it - they just do it because others say it works. And they are not just applying it to new leads - they're applying it to existing lists without segregating known buyers, etc.

It really sucks that many people don't test.

Probably, one of the biggest I made in my business early on.

[Daniel E Taylor]

I hate when marketers use capital letters at the
beginning of every sentence.

I'm unsubcribing from every list that does this. I'm sure
many others feel this way (Even though I've never done
any testing I'm just talking out my ass)

So you could be losing subscribers if you put a capital letter
at the beginning of sentences.

Daniel

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor

I hate when marketers use capital letters at the
beginning of every sentence.

I'm unsubcribing from every list that does this. I'm sure
many others feel this way (Even though I've never done
any testing I'm just talking out my ass)

So you could be losing subscribers if you put a capital letter
at the beginning of sentences.

Daniel

Hater ...

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by mbacak

It really sucks that many people don't test.

Probably, one of the biggest I made in my business early on.

And I think it's probably the underlying reason for John's OP. I don't sign up to many lists (maybe 1 or 2 here and there in IM), but I get hammered with stuff like this a lot.

There are a lot of would be marketers out there that don't have a clue about what it is they're doing - they just do it, parroting what they see or hear others are doing.

[DougBarger]

Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor

I hate when marketers use capital letters at the
beginning of every sentence.

I'm unsubcribing from every list that does this. I'm sure
many others feel this way (Even though I've never done
any testing I'm just talking out my ass)

So you could be losing subscribers if you put a capital letter
at the beginning of sentences.

Daniel

LOL. I take it you're having a little fun with it there Daniel?

Joking aside,
And not too off topic,

Did you know testing confirms capitalizing the
First letter of each new line of copy

Whether grammatically correct or not,

Has proven to increase readability and scroll rates?


Apparently, it makes the text of the copy easier to
Read and helps alleviate eyestrain which gets more scroll action.

Why would we want more people scrolling down more of our copy?

The more copy your visitor reads, the more selling your copy does.
And the more scrolling the more *order form* impressions.

The more order form impressions, the more order form submissions.

Bottom line?

Yep.

It's another example of some of the processes which can seem
To be counter-intuitive and yet produce some great results!

Most of the people who are using the marketing practices
Being discussed in the op,

Didn't set out to intentionally deceive, misconstrue or annoy
When they began to offer freebies from other marketers to their subscribers.

I'm willing to wager, they are building their lists with ad swaps.

As Matt said earlier, when someone is putting on an additional 1000 subscriptions a day,
They likely won't focus the majority of their efforts on the few who don't like it.

It helps clean their lists with people who appreciate what they have to offer
And aren't the equivalent of a hair-trigger with the spam button...

(At the slightest indication the marketer is doing something they would not have
Chosen to do personally.)

After awhile, the distinction between what "I personally prefer"
And *what works* begins to dawn.

If you market to everyone, you market to no one right?

Can't please everyone all the time, etc.

If you systematically analyze each and every monetization leverage point
And then demonize it because you see the advantage to the marketer,

Perhaps it's time to evaluate why you have those types of hangups.

If you want individual attention just the way "you" want it,
Maybe it's time to look for some one on one personal coaching?

Even then, everything won't be 'exactly' as you'd prefer.

If it was, you wouldn't be on the lists or needing the coaching anymore anyway would you?

That's not directed at anyone personally.

Just a few observations in light of a few tens of millions of dollars in testing those kinds of things.

[SimonHarrison]

Agreed with Matt on pretty much all his points. I don't have a problem being marketed to at all, if you want something for free, then you have to give your e-mail address, no big deal and god forbid as Matt says, you get upsold to etc etc, I also don't get if a popup appears and offers a trial offer of the product etc, I can not for the life of me understand why people get their knickers in a twist over something like that.

I do however object to the techniques which are clearly deceptive in nature, especially the "Oh I'm sorry I made a mistake in my email " crap.

In other words, I blasted you once, now I'll blast you again under the false pretense that I didn't describe the offer correctly or whatever other total BS excuse they come up with.

I would have zero issue if a second e-mail came in which was upfront and said something more like "Hey Simon, incase you missed my first email in the inbox mayhem, I just wanted to give you a last opportunity to grab XYZ as I'm taking it off the market tommorow".

Look it's a double up , but at least it's honest and upfront rather than an insult to my intelligence.

I have no issue with any level of marketing as long as it's upfront .

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by DougBarger

Did you know testing confirms
capitalizing the First letter of each new line of copy

Whether grammatically correct or not,

Has proven to increase readability and scroll rates?

That's good info. I'm actually going to have to test this.

Jokenly - Daniel - if your on my list. unsubscribe now. j/k but t
hanks for bringing this up and getting Doug to mention this.:-)

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

And I think it's probably the underlying reason for John's OP. I don't sign up to many lists (maybe 1 or 2 here and there in IM), but I get hammered with stuff like this a lot. .

I totally get that.

I have found there are 3 reasons why I mail:

MAIN reason --> 1. Make money - the numbers
2. Political - you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
(Then your tied into mailing whatever they give you) If it works I mail again.
3. Sympathy - feel bad for them or want to help out.
4. Pain in the ass - They bug the hell out of you so much that you mail so they just shut up.

[mbacak]

But - the real problem is and why everyone gets the same emails
all the time is because these famous words "Just give me your best
email and subject line that converts the best - and I'll send it out"

I'm guilty on that one.

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by mbacak

But - the real problem is and why everyone gets the same emails
all the time is because these famous words "Just give me your best
email and subject line that converts the best - and I'll send it out"

I'm guilty on that one.

E-mail swipe files,. the scourge of spam and peed of list subscribers.

I never send them out, EVER, I do however plageurise the hell out of them , use my experience to pull out the benefits, the calls to action, the tone to suit the market etc but I wrap that in my own verbiage, and always always change the subject line.

Takes normally 25 minutes to adapt a winning swipe file, can't bear sending something out as me that clearly isn't from me, did it once and you look like a fool when your subscribers email you back to tell you that somebody "stole your -email" ...

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

I never send them out, EVER, I do however plageurise the hell out of them , use my experience to pull out the benefits, the calls to action, the tone to suit the market etc but I wrap that in my own verbiage, and always always change the subject line.

Takes normally 25 minutes to adapt a winning swipe file, can't bear sending something out as me that clearly isn't from me, did it once and you look like a fool when your subscribers email you back to tell you that somebody "stole your -email" ...

Great suggestion. Although, depending on how you gained the
email list and how incestuous the list is - if done properly especially
on a launch, having the same emails go out creates social proof.

Overall - I agree with ya.

[AndyBlackSEO]

I have only participated in one adswap before. Although this may be a common practice in which to build your list, if used excessively you will lose your true readers and replace then with an army of subscribers who you kas of yet' not connected with. It appears to me that some people do adswap after adswap. This to me makes me assume that subscribers come and go without any core followers remaining on your list.

Sometimes its best to let your list grow naturally whilst focusing your efforts on connecting with the subscribers that you already have.

Just my two cents.

[JR Rich]

Originally Posted by reikejan

Newbie to the list here - with a question. If I offer a free report/something, don't you assume you would have to opt in? How else do I capture emails to build my list?

I offer a free report (real estate stuff) that then goes to an upsell. Is this offensive to you? Do I have to tell you in my email that 1) you have to opt in to get the free report and 2) once you do that, you will be redirected to an upsell page? If I don't disclose this to you, will you be offended?

Another problem I have is that I've been involved in outside sales for years and find I'm good at it. But.... the thing that seems to make me good at it is the fact that I can "allow" the buyer to make the buying decision. They don't feel any pressure from me, so they not only relax around me, they think I'm really great, trustworthy, etc., and they buy. SO - how do I transport that face-to-face patience and trustworthiness to the sales page? I keep hearing urgency and scarcity (and it works on me), but isn't there some way to bring that soft-sell approach that is so effective to IM? How is what I want to know.

Offensive? Nahhh!

This particular thread about unsavory marketing tactics is of concern only to those of us who might recognize them as such. The vast majority of your chosen niche would never detect them (probably).

Yes, you need to build your list and Yes, you will be offering them some valuable freebie to entice them to do so. This approach is completely ethical and necessary.

It's what happens after you have them as subscribers that the 'ol rubber meets the road!

Having an upsell immediately following the sign-up is perfectly okay -- but you'll want to make it a soft-sell. Don't push it too hard - give the subscriber some time to get to know you and to 'settle-in" to the list first.

Unfortunately, many list owners use their lists as nothing more than affiliate 'marks' and never take the time or effort to develop a rapport. To these guys, a list is nothing more than a funnel ... subscribers in one end, unsubscribers out the other and, as long as they have more people coming into it than leave it, they're happy campers!

I believe that if you take the time to build a true relationship with your subscribers, you'll make far more money at the end of the day.

"The more you give-away, the more you will receive" -- Very Eastern Philosophy, that!

Regards,
--JR Rich

[CliveG]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Let me add to the pet peeves instead of starting a new thread...

I really hate this obvious ploy of sending out an email with an "accidental" bad link, then sending a follow-up a few minutes later saying, "Oops - here's the correct link, my bad." How smarmy can you get?

...

I've never managed to get my head round this one. I'm not really sure what the aim is and I find it hard to believe that it works. Does it?

All it does for me personally is to call into question the competence of the sender.

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by CliveG

I've never managed to get my head round this one. I'm not really sure what the aim is and I find it hard to believe that it works. Does it?

All it does for me personally is to call into question the competence of the sender.

I can't speak for others, but I've done it a time or three and let me tell you, the last thing you want is the 20K people you just emailed all mailing you back about the broken link.

It's stupid, embarrassing and costly (in terms of sorting things out again), so I honestly don't know why anyone would.

My biggest blunder was forgetting to include the link, LOL - trust me, it wasn't a ploy. Not enough sleep, 4 kids fighting in the background, and being in a hurry instead of sending the email to myself for a final check.