Where to draw the line between SPAM and E-MAIL MARKETING?

[GeezerXtreme]

As all of us on here probably know, e-mail marketing systems can be of a great help for reaching a large number of targets in a short amount of time, for little to no cost.

However, my question for those of you who utilise online mailing lists, whether purchased or your own, is where do you draw the line between what is considered just standard "Cold Emailing" and outright SPAM?

Considering I go to great lengths to follow all of the rules contained within the Anti-Spam legislation ordained by our government, including things like ensuring full contact details are listed, an opt-out button is given, and ensuring that the service/product is of relevance to the targeted person, I still feel a lot like I am spamming people. It's a battle with my own conscience I guess, considering i've gotten quite a few big contracts for my company via these methods.

What are everyone's thoughts on where to draw the line? How do you all make sure you don't overstep it?

[Troy_Phillips]

If they signed up to my list they can't consider my emails spam. Well they could consider it spam but they would be wrong .

[GeezerXtreme]

Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips

If they signed up to my list they can't consider my emails spam. Well they could consider it spam but they would be wrong .

If they are on your list, how often do you consider sending mailouts too much before it becomes a kind of spam? Once a week? Once a month?

[mbacak]

My thought is.

Buy lists = spam
scrap emails = spam
Optin = not spam

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by GeezerXtreme

If they are on your list, how often do you consider sending mailouts too much before it becomes a kind of spam? Once a week? Once a month?

Why would it ever become spam - they signed up.

[nicholasb]

if you spent the time to build the list and the people willingly opted in to recieve content from you how could it be spam.

If your business is spam compliant how can it be spam.

They are 100% free to opt out anytime they want there is a link at the bottom of every email to do so.

if you buy the list then it is spam in my opinion.

I do feel that you should provide value to this list and build a relationship too, but if they opted in and you are spam compliant it's not spam.

[Troy_Phillips]

Originally Posted by GeezerXtreme

If they are on your list, how often do you consider sending mailouts too much before it becomes a kind of spam? Once a week? Once a month?

I send out every day .

If I am sending you emails that are telling you how to build a list do you want a tip every day or to be left hanging .

If you opted in I could send ten a day . Although this would not be a good business practice it is not spam.

[nicholasb]

well I forgot to mention, if they signed up to a list to recieve information on anxiety for example then you start sending them all kinds of other stuff that is totally not related it can be considered a form of spam.

But I dont think any good marketer would do that any way.

why not just build another list in whatever other niche you wanted to promote.

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by GeezerXtreme

If they are on your list, how often do you consider sending mailouts too much before it becomes a kind of spam? Once a week? Once a month?

Unless in getting them to sign up you committed to only sending them a certain volume of email, it's not spam. While the recipient may consider it spam, it doesn't make it so.

That said, you really won't know the answer to this until you test it - finding that sweet spot that balances the number of emails sent with the maximum conversion rate.

Incidentally, kudos to you for at least asking the question and demonstrating a decent business ethic regarding email and spam.

[actionplanbiz]

if people provide me their email to contact them without opting in and i emailed them an offer, i would'nt consider that as spam. but is it?

[Mark Jordan]

I agree with Matt that emailing from an Opt-in list shouldn't be considered spam, but I've signed up for many newsletters and such, and started getting emails everyday, sometimes several times a day. Even when you ask to receive email, it can get to be too much. It doesn't take long before I unsubscribe to those lists.

I think a rule of thumb is that you should never email your list more than once a week. Any more than that, I would call it spam.

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Unless in getting them to sign up you committed to only sending them a certain volume of email, it's not spam. While the recipient may consider it spam, it doesn't make it so.

That said, you really won't know the answer to this until you test it - finding that sweet spot that balances the number of emails sent with the maximum conversion rate.

Incidentally, kudos to you for at least asking the question and demonstrating a decent business ethic regarding email and spam.

Very good info.

I'd like to add or maybe say what he said a little differently. If you train them that you
are going to send them once a week, then they will be used to that. (And EXPECT it) going
outside of your regular activity they think your spamming them. If you train them that you
mail every day they will know that's who you are and what you do.

Heck, I have some friends that are successful mailing 3 times a day and
do extremely well at it. But, that's exactly how they trained them.

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by actionplanbiz

if people provide me their email to contact them without opting in and i emailed them an offer, i would'nt consider that as spam. but is it?

I really don't know the correct answer to that. But, I used to have people all the time come up to me after I would speak at an event and say " here's my card ad me to your list" , my response would be.." here's my optin page - go there and sign up" I do the same if they'd email me directly to do it.

Here was my line of thinking. I wouldn't have their ip address - (so no proof if
they did report it as spam) But, more importantly, I want them to take action to
do it so they jumped over another hurdle and will be more responsive for sure.

[Troy_Phillips]

Originally Posted by Mark Jordan

I agree with Matt that emailing from an Opt-in list shouldn't be considered spam, but I've signed up for many newsletters and such, and started getting emails everyday, sometimes several times a day. Even when you ask to receive email, it can get to be too much. It doesn't take long before I unsubscribe to those lists.

I think a rule of thumb is that you should never email your list more than once a week. Any more than that, I would call it spam.

Then your definition of spam would be wrong .

What if I send you a tip you could use to make real money every day online ?

You actually implement the tip and it makes you money . Am I going to piss you off to the unsub point if I send you two emails in a day and you make money off both of these tips ?

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by actionplanbiz

if people provide me their email to contact them without opting in and i emailed them an offer, i would'nt consider that as spam. but is it?

Don't take my comments as gospel here, because I'm not an expert in regards to email marketing.

That said, in reading CAN-SPAM and also searching the document, I could not find a single reference to "Opt In" - only "Opt Out". That makes me think that the Opt In method is ithe industry standard "Best practice" to prove something wasn't spam.

I may be mistaken, but I do not think Opt In is even required? If I'm wrong, someone please point to the right place because I'm really curious about this.

In my opinion, CAN-SPAM seems to be reasonably liberal for those legitimately using email as part of their business activities. It's designed to draw a line in the sand, so to speak, to give the FTC the ability to pursue spammers.

[Daniel E Taylor]

Alot of technical responses which is great...

But unfortunately people aren't always very bright
and they sign up and them report your email as spam.

After to many spam complaints your emails will start
going right to the spam folder.

So I'd definitely be aware of that. I'm telling you
because I got screwed up like that. So if your list
feels you are emailing too much sales pitches and not
enough content, many times they will click the spam button
in their email.

So just be aware.

Daniel

[Troy_Phillips]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Don't take my comments as gospel here, because I'm not an expert in regards to email marketing.

That said, in reading CAN-SPAM and also searching the document, I could not find a single reference to "Opt In" - only "Opt Out". That makes me think that the Opt In method is ithe industry standard "Best practice" to prove something wasn't spam.

I may be mistaken, but I do not think Opt In is even required? If I'm wrong, someone please point to the right place because I'm really curious about this.

In my opinion, CAN-SPAM seems to be reasonably liberal for those legitimately using email as part of their business activities. It's designed to draw a line in the sand, so to speak, to give the FTC the ability to pursue spammers.

You are 100% correct .

People often freak out on here because I use single opt in exclusively .

So many think you must use double when in reality you must only give a reasonable means of escape.

I don't go the cold email route but there are people making a lot of money who do.

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor

they sign up and them report your email as spam.

Ya - my mom reported me as spam once. No lie. Dang AOL.

[Troy_Phillips]

Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor

Alot of technical responses which is great...

But unfortunately people aren't always very bright
and they sign up and them report your email as spam.

After to many spam complaints your emails will start
going right to the spam folder.

So I'd definitely be aware of that. I'm telling you
because I got screwed up like that. So if your list
feels you are emailing too much sales pitches and not
enough content, many times they will click the spam button
in their email.

So just be aware.

Daniel

Reported spam and legitimated spam complaints are two different categories . Too many people think they can hit the spam button and that will unsub them.

You hit on something more important here. The quality content . Quality , usable content with a relevant link in the PS: file has never gotten me a spam complaint .

[GeezerXtreme]

Well for me one of the ways people seem to be acquiring e-mail addresses for their list in the first place is by the token "Sign up for our Newsletter!" routine, and then using that acquired e-mail to plaster every other product down the target's throat. While they technically "opted in" to your mailing list, wouldn't you all consider it spam to send them mails other than the requested newsletter?

[mbacak]

Originally Posted by GeezerXtreme

Well for me one of the ways people seem to be acquiring e-mail addresses for their list in the first place is by the token "Sign up for our Newsletter!" routine, and then using that acquired e-mail to plaster every other product down the target's throat. While they technically "opted in" to your mailing list, wouldn't you all consider it spam to send them mails other than the requested newsletter?

Not if that's how you trained them that's how you would
do it. But, in the end it's your definition not ours.

[Mark Jordan]

Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips

Then your definition of spam would be wrong .

Sorry, Troy, but my definition of spam is not wrong. My definition of spam is ANY unwanted email, whether I opted in to someone's list or not.

The point is, if you TELL me that you are going to send me email every day, and I agree to that, it's OK. I can't call that spam. (Unless you just send me useless junk.)

What I'm talking about are those that offer a "weekly" newsletter, and then start sending you offers to buy stuff almost every day. Those people are abusing their list, and even though you can't technically call it spam, since you opted into their list, ethically, it's still spam.

Bottom line: Be up front. Tell your subscribers how often you plan to email them; once a week, once a day, or whatever. Then stick to your agreement! That way you can never be accused of spamming your list.

BTW: Troy, I signed up for YOUR list. Show me whatcha got!

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Mark Jordan

Sorry, Troy, but my definition of spam is not wrong. My definition of spam is ANY unwanted email, whether I opted in to someone's list or not.

In that case, if your definition of "spam" isn't "wrong" per se, let's just say that you're using the word spam with a different meaning from that collectively intended and understood by the entire internet marketing community. (I preferred "wrong", myself, I admit ).

[Razer Rage]

If they opt-ed in to get 1 email from you per day, and you send more than one email per day, then it's spam.

If you promise that you will deliver high-quality information to their inbox, and instead you constantly send out product promotions, then you are spamming.

Just put yourself in their shoes. If you wouldn't like it done to you, then don't do it to them.

[sbucciarel]

Originally Posted by mbacak

Very good info.

I'd like to add or maybe say what he said a little differently. If you train them that you
are going to send them once a week, then they will be used to that. (And EXPECT it) going
outside of your regular activity they think your spamming them. If you train them that you
mail every day they will know that's who you are and what you do.

Heck, I have some friends that are successful mailing 3 times a day and
do extremely well at it. But, that's exactly how they trained them.

I am untrainable. Anyone who emails me once a day ... I unsubscribe.

[TelegramSam]

If people didn't ask for something and you send them something, that is SPAM.

[Mark Jordan]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

In that case, if your definition of "spam" isn't "wrong" per se, let's just say that you're using the word spam with a different meaning from that collectively intended and understood by the entire internet marketing community. (I preferred "wrong", myself, I admit ).

That's my point...

There is a difference between the "technical" definition and the "perceived" definition of spam. As an internet marketer, if you take the technical attitude that as long as someone opted into your list, you can send them email as often as you want, then you run the risk of abusing your customer's perceived definition of spam.

Granted, they can't file a complaint against you because they opted in. But they can unsubscribe, and you have lost a customer, or a potential customer. Every internet marketer knows that the money is in the list. Why would you take the risk of shrinking your list rather than growing it?

As I said before, let your subscribers know up front how often you will send them email, and stick to the plan. What's so hard about that?

[Colin Theriot]

This thread perfectly illustrates the problem that always comes up when people start talking about this subject.

There is a divergence between the actual legal definition of SPAM, (which is all any marketer NEEDS to worry about) and the popular definition of SPAM (which is probably what any marketer thinking about long-term prospect mining SHOULD worry about).

Now, even though there IS a legal definition of SPAM, it's purposefully vague, and actually is pretty good at making it easy for legitimate businesses to operate legally while being structured so as to punish the people who are actually trying to abuse the internet at large.

In other words, it's worded in a way that benefits YOU, the business owner.

However, the POPULAR definition of SPAM is basically any email I didn't want to get at that particular moment. And the whine about SPAM is so loud that ISPs will just shut you down due to a rogue idiot individual because it's just easier than doing otherwise.

Heavy-handed, self-appointed SPAM cops at the ISP level who operate under the popular definition do more to hurt legitimate email marketing than actual spammers do.

And the dreadful irony is that the same dummies who cry SPAM instead of just deleting an email they actually asked for but didn't want to take the time to unsub... these same dummies are the ones who BUY the CRAP that is marketed in SPAM. The SAME DUMMIES who get scammed and cry loud enough for the FTC to get involved.

And look, I LOVE that we live in a compassionate enough country that has organizations designed to protect consumers from the inevitable wolves that can rise out of a free market society. But let's not kid ourselves about how underfunded and understaffed federal agencies need to act. There is no scalpel, there is only the rusty saw.

They have to respond to the whining with a degree of severity that will appease the whining dummies, regardless of whether it will damage legitimate businesses or not.

It's a complicated problem, and an emergent one, arisen out of the unpredictable collision of several very complex technologies and motivations.

For me, as a marketer, the answer is simple. Be up front about communication, and how you want to engage with the prospect. Tell them what you want to say, how you want to get in touch, and what kind of things you want to share. You shouldn't have to trick people into getting onto your lists, they should WANT to do it because you kick ass.

As for double opt-in, I tend to think that's a best practice solely because in order to get the email in the first place, the marketer was probably sneaky in persuading the user to share it. This is the only way that an ISP can tell that the user WANTS the email, because they can't take your word on how you got their email address otherwise.

It's NOT legally required, but it's considered a best practice. I find when I have used it, the best thing to do is have a 2 part deliverable as part of your "bait".

You deliver part of it in the confirmation email, and the 2nd part of it on the other side of the confirmation link. In part 1, put a reminder to click the confirmation link to get part 2.

It's a pain in the butt to have to do, but if you want to be bulletproof, you have to do it. It's sad that it's basically because we can't trust the prospect to not be an idiot about using email.

[Black Hat Cat]

Originally Posted by Mark Jordan

Sorry, Troy, but my definition of spam is not wrong. My definition of spam is ANY unwanted email, whether I opted in to someone's list or not.

Thus making your definition wrong. SPAM isn't arbitrarily based on feelings.

[Black Hat Cat]

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I am untrainable. Anyone who emails me once a day ... I unsubscribe.

If you aren't interested in hearing from them, why are you signing up in the first place? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Hesaidblissfully]

I don't think overzealous internet marketers should be lumped in together with legitimate spammers.

With the overzealous internet marketer, yes, he may be annoying in sending you offers everyday, but you did at some point request to receive communication from him, or else you wouldn't be on his list. And if the pitches get to be too much, you can unsubscribe, which takes about two seconds.

Contrast that with someone sending you emails about \/1@gr@ or fake rolexes that you NEVER requested, and that either have no unsubscribe button at all, or if they do, all you're doing when you click it is raising your hand and saying "Hey spammer, this is a valid email address. Keep sending me stuff!"

In other words, just because someone's doing something that you find annoying, doesn't mean they're breaking the law.

P.S. to the OP, pitching products to your list doesn't have to be about milking them for everything theyr'e worth. I know you didn't say that exactly but you asked about including offers for affiliate products in newsletters, so I thought I'd add my two cents on the topic. The pitch could (and IMO should) simply be you recommending products to your subscribers that you genuinely think are going to help them get the result they're looking for, and that can be mixed in with the regular content of the newsletter.

[majidmaskat]

why do the gurus send an email every day to their lists. the worst part is that all their emails are always selling things. They could be making $80k on every email, but the question is why they do it?

[Lance K]

If for some reason some bonehead decides to mail you more often than agreed to and/or mail you stuff that's not related to why you signed up...it's still not really SPAM.

Unethical? Sure. But SPAM? Nah, just a broken promise. The unsubscribe link is the easiest form of divorce on the planet. Use it and move on.

If the broken promise is a deal breaker for you, unsubscribe and move on. If not, tuck it away in your memory as strike one (or two) and move on.