PayPal has become the GAME CHANGER - PayDotCom Will Change Soon

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by SageSound

First off, that's a really idiotic way to handle it. You are under no obligation to issue a refund immediately, and saying it will take 24/48/72 hours to process, or even more, is not unreasonable. It doesn't matter if an affiliate was involved or not. They bought YOUR product and YOU owe them the refund. There are numerous ways to handle it, but giving your affiliate a couple of days to issue the refund is perfectly acceptable. More than that and I'd disable their account.

Regardless of who caught the commission, there are other things that could necessitate a delay.

The fallacy of this "I'm in TOTAL CONTROL" theory is that you have virtually NO control over what your merchant charge account processor might do. If they freeze your account, you have no excuses. "Uh, well, sorry, I can't issue a refund because my merchant processor froze my account." Doesn't matter if it's PayPal or one of the bankcards.

Just remember, the likelihood of having one affiliate screw you is going to be fairly low -- because the affiliate is shooting himself in the foot as well. If they're making money from your product, they're not going to screw around and put future earnings at risk.

Your merchant processor, on the other hand, is playing by an entirely different set of rules. They don't care what your refund rate is if your sales suddenly and unexpectedly exceed their projections.

Sorry, but I'd rather take my chances with one not-so-bright affiliate over a merchant card processor any day! The affiliate might cost me one refund but his promotional efforts might garner me far more sales that I don't have to pay him because of his breech of contract. The merchant account processor, on the other hand, has me over a barrel for 100% of my revenues. I don't know about anybody else, but the prospect of THAT happening scares the Bejezus out of me!

I don't care who's in control as long as there isn't one single point of failure that can put me out of business. Well, that sounds great, except for most of us, there really are several: payment processors, web hosts, domain registrars, blacklists, server failures, hackers, etc. It'd complicated and expensive to have 100% redundancy of everything.

-David

Actually, merchant account processors typically give you the money within 3 days(typically FAR less). It is ILLEGAL for them to hold it back. PERIOD! AND, the money is YOURS from the moment of approval to the moment of dispute, BY THE CUSTOMER! AND if there is a chargeback, THEY have to pay!!!!!!! So they can NOT prevent you from having the money to refund. It is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!

And what happens if they break that law? The customer gets angry, issues a chargeback, and the PROCESSOR has to pay! AND, if THEY kept you from paying a refund, they have NO right to charge you for the charge back. BESIDES, the payment of the chargeback would come from what THEY stole from the customer and you. And they certainly DO care about chargebacks. If they go too high, THEY have problems.

PAYPAL is a different sort of animal. THEY deal with the merchant account, and YOU deal with them. STILL, they HAVE to deal with chargebacks. If the customer pays $100, Paypal gets $100. EVEN if they NEVER pay you, and close the account, if the customer does a chargeback, the processor has to pay, and they will CHARGE paypals account to get the money BACK!

BTW you should issue a refund as soon as you can. AND, if you cross a billing cycle, a refund request can become a chargeback demand real QUICK!

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by SageSound

It's not appropriate to tell the customer to deal with it!

RIGHT!

Originally Posted by SageSound

It's YOUR site, so it's YOUR job to contact whomever caught the payment and tell them to issue a refund. If they don't do it in a timely manner, then you do it yourself and disable them from receiving further payments.

STUPID! HOW do you know they didn't issue a refund?

Originally Posted by SageSound

If they used a regular credit card with your merchant payment processor, you dont' say, "Well, it was really the credit card processor who took the payment from you, so you'll need to call them". No, you deal with it yourself.

Same difference.

They CAN "call them". It is called a CHARGE BACK!

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate

I dont know guys... Paying affiliates on the spot can become a can of worms when it comes to deal with refunds and chargebacks. Clickbank has mastered this issue holding a reserve for 3 months out of each account. Besides, the whole sales tax accounting is a nightmare when the product owner, the affiliate and the customer are located in different states. Clickbank deals with all that on their end which is great.

Citibank is a gateway for sellers of products. Paypal is not. Clickbank is required to take care of taxes. Paypal is required not to.

[RichardWing]

You know they didn't issue a refund because the transaction in the PERFECTLY DESIGNED instant commission sales system (RAP) says so.

Anything to do with the sale of a product or refunds is communicated back to the system and the merchant can see whats going on.

Richard Wing

Originally Posted by seasoned

RIGHT!



STUPID! HOW do you know they didn't issue a refund?



They CAN "call them". It is called a CHARGE BACK!

[Jill Carpenter]

Originally Posted by swithat

Thanks a million for this supper update

Supper? No one told me it was supper time.

[Sid Hale]

Hi,

Originally Posted by seasoned

STUPID! HOW do you know they didn't issue a refund?

errrrrr... because Paypal has not communicated back to his IPN script that a refund was issued by his affiliate?

Not STUPID at all, and it's totally automatic.

The Paypal IPN process notifies the merchant of all sales, refunds, subscription sign-ups, etc. - regardless of whether the transaction was against the merchant's Paypal account or the affiliate's.

If his backend IPN script does not acknowledge receipt of the refund transaction from Paypal... They just send it again, and again, and again (less frequently as time elapses, but the merchant is notified of any refunds processed by his affiliates).

This is a process that is handled totally in the background between his server and Paypal's, but it's totally evident from his Admin panel (transaction ID is no longer a hyperlink on that transaction, and it is shown in red).

Isn't it amazing what computers can do these days, without silly little one-off instructions? Maybe they aren't so "STUPID" after all!

[MWick]

That is indeed good news. It has been a while since we saw something new from Paypal other then their design changes.

[Popstar]

I appreciate the warriors who took the time to respond to my comments in a reasoned and professional way. But I do think there were some warriors who responded to others in this thread in an inappropriate manner. And that's the only reason that I've decided to comment one more time.

First, merchant processors can and often do hold a portion of your money in reserve (sometimes for up to 6 months) if you do a lot of sudden volume. There are some big Internet players who get credit lines to cover payments to affiliates during that time. Reserves can also impact their ability to pay estimated tax in the US in a timely manner.

Second, while I don't want to get into a personal dispute with anyone on the forum, I have to say that I found this comment to be completely off-base, if not downright offensive...

Originally Posted by SageSound

Errrr... why don't you guys grab a copy of RAP and try selling something for yourselves and see exactly what the REAL numbers are, instead of running around spewing off crazy opinions about what happens if the sky is falling?

Refunds are a red herring! All the long-time RAP users are saying it's a non-issue, while all of the arm-chair quarterbacks keep whining that "it sounds like a can of worms". Who 'ya gonna believe? What's it costing you to sit on the sidelines and worry?

Sentiments like that have been expressed many times in the investment banking world from people who are supposed to be financial geniuses.

But it's those very same financial geniuses who have brought the US and sometimes the global economy to the brink more than once.

There have been any number of big financial meltdowns that have been precipitated by a group of people who "changed the game" financially. And the game-changer was always a new way of dealing with (and usually ignoring) risk... followed by the herd mentality that caused everyone else to adopt it or miss out on a new way of making big profits.

What caused so many people to lose their homes last year?

If I remember correctly, sub-prime mortgage lenders decided to ignore the risk and lend to people with poor credit in what appeared to be a robust housing market. Then interest rates rose, housing prices started to fall, and the market collapsed like a row of dominoes.

Oh and there was a component of fraud with some lenders, too.

Bernie Madoff, former Chairman of the Nasdaq stock exchange, was getting consistent phenomenal investment returns (on paper) when just about everyone else was having trouble in the financial markets. Turned out to be a massive fraud by a very trusted individual which caused many of his investors to lose their life savings. It even affected the survival of some charities.

Only a few people raised red flags about the risk of dealing with Madoff. They were repeatedly ignored or criticized. After all, how serious could the risk be if so many people had been making so much money for so long from such a well-regarded man?

The investment "geniuses" at Long-Term Capital Management in the late 1990s almost brought down the economy... it was all about a new way of viewing risk by some prominent financial bigwigs, including a couple of Nobel Prize-winning economists.

There are lots of other examples, but I think I've made my point.

I'm glad that the people who are using this method of instantly paying their affiliates have profited and incurred no serious losses so far. I hope it will stay that way.

But the others who have talked about the risk of fraud or nonfulfillment, especially with physical products, are not "armchair quarterbacks." Even a formerly legitimate affiliate can send you a lot of volume, hit hard times, and bail on you.

The risk (and size) of loss depends on your volume, the price of your product, delivery issues, and the very real risk of fraud (perhaps in a way that we can't even imagine yet).

Each of us has to make his or her own decision about using the instant commission structure. But the reason I decided to make this final comment was because I didn't want anyone, especially the newbies, to feel stupid or bullied into using an instant commission system if they don't feel comfortable with the risk.

However unlikely to occur, the risk is real. And the bigger your business, the more you have to lose.

Debbie

[Joel O]

This looks like a good thing to come... but I guess we can only know for sure once it actually comes out and we try it out.

But if it goes as it looks, yes, it should help a lot of affiliates... to get them motivated quicker once seeing fast payments.


Joel Osborne

[sydneyguy8]

Can some body tell me how can I install api certificate in a website?

[SageSound]

Originally Posted by seasoned

STUPID! HOW do you know they didn't issue a refund?

uh, you look it up in your RAP Admin panel...

I'm talking about using PayPal and an immediate payment mechanism like RAP. I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

The only two scripts that I know of that do immediate payments to affiliates are RAP and the $7 Secrets script, and they both use PayPal exclusively.

Personally, I would not even ATTEMPT to do immediate affiliate payments through a traditional merchant processing gateway.

-David

[SageSound]

Originally Posted by Popstar

Second, while I don't want to get into a personal dispute with anyone on the forum, I have to say that I found this comment to be completely off-base, if not downright offensive...

. . .
The risk (and size) of loss depends on your volume, the price of your product, delivery issues, and the very real risk of fraud (perhaps in a way that we can't even imagine yet).

Each of us has to make his or her own decision about using the instant commission structure. But the reason I decided to make this final comment was because I didn't want anyone, especially the newbies, to feel stupid or bullied into using an instant commission system if they don't feel comfortable with the risk.

However unlikely to occur, the risk is real. And the bigger your business, the more you have to lose.

Debbie

I'm sorry if my comment was off-putting to some folks here.

The point is, the risks of refunds are dependent on many factors, none of which have to do with the payment mechanism and whether affiliates are being paid immediately or not.

Last week I got two sales of a product on RAP within 45 minutes of each other. They both came through the same affiliate link.

One was from a guy in the New Jersey area of the US, and the second was from a guy in Denmark.

I got the first commission, the affiliate got the 2nd commission.

The next day, I got a notice of dispute from PayPal that said the funds had been suspended pending some further matters, including the shipping address I shipped the products to. Well, no shipping address was given, and I didn't ship anything. In fact, neither one of these buyers even bothered to go into the download area and download the product.

Long story short, I contacted Sid (the RAP designer) and he said it followed a pattern he'd seen before that was indicative of a stolen credit card. I called PayPal and discussed it with them, giving them whatever info I had that might help. The "dispute" is still pending, but I expect it will turn up as a stolen card and the funds will be kept by PayPal or whomever.

And what about the "affiliate" in this case? I don't know. PayPal won't say, and he never contacted me. The guy at PayPal assured me that I was NOT LIABLE for that payment AT ALL.

Based on what the PayPal guy told me, the action seems to have been initiated by the credit card merchant itself, as a result of their anti-fraud detection system.

Now, assuming this was a stolen credit card and the thiefs were simply trying to verify if it was still good or not, it was probably just coincidental that these guys used it with one of my products and affiliate links. They could have bought gas, or groceries, or bought something at Clickbank ... any number of things.

The fact that I was using an "immediate payment" script and that an affiliate was involved was totally irrelevant.

What I'm trying to say is ... THE RISKS ARE THE SAME!

I've used DLGuard for several years, and I've had fraudulent credit card purchases made through it as well. It doesn't even support affiliate payments!

NEWBIES BEWARE! Yes, there are RISKS involved in doing business online! Is that a surprize?

There are cheats and frauds and serial refunders and all kinds of crackpots. People will buy something and file a dispute or chargeback within 5 minutes or 5 days. When that happens, chances are they already made up their mind BEFORE BUYING!

And from all the evidence I've seen, they don't seem to prefer "instant payment" scripts over other payment options.

But, the Good News is ... in over 90% of the sales we make, nothing unusual happens.

Whether you use RAP or DLGuard or $7 Secrets script or Clickbank or PDC or just a plain old PayPal Payment button, the risks are exactly the same.

Since someone is in the mood to warn newbies about risks ... there sure do seem to be a LOT of people complaining about losing credits for sales processed through Clickbank lately. Compliaints like this seem to come in waves here in the WF, every few months. People with PROOF! Yet, nothing ever seems to be done about it. Newbies are constantly told to "sell Clickbank products", but are never warned of the fact that Clickbank goes through periods of time when referred sales just magically disappear. Oops! You can't track them. You can't verify them. And worse, Clickbank has never admitted there's ever a problem, in spite of the overwhelming evidence dozens of people right here in this forum collect!

On the other hand, where are the complaints to be found about missing affiliate payments from instant payment scripts like RAP? You'd figure with thousands of products being sold through RAP, surely there must be a FEW complaints? The only folks here with direct experience say it's a non-issue.

That IS what all the hubub is about, right? How BAD all of these supposed "risks" are with "instant payment" scripts.

If they ARE REAL CONCERNS, then WHERE in the heck are all the folks complaining about it? <shrug>

All we're hearing is people saying how bad it "might" be or "could" be, and the folks who've been doing it for a few years who say, "it's a non-issue".

-David

[SageSound]

Originally Posted by Joel O

This looks like a good thing to come... but I guess we can only know for sure once it actually comes out and we try it out.

But if it goes as it looks, yes, it should help a lot of affiliates... to get them motivated quicker once seeing fast payments.


Joel Osborne

What exactly are you waiting for?

Do a search on the forum here for "instant commission" and sign up as an affiliate at one of the sites you find, then promote it.

The $7 Secrets script has been around for 3+ years now, and RAP has been around for 2+ years.

There are literally THOUSANDS of products being sold day after day using one of these scripts to pay affiiates directly.

PayPal's API enhancements aren't going to change this at all. What they WILL do is remove a big problem that some sites like PDC have with vendors who fail to make timely payments to their affiliates -- or make any payments at all. That's why Mike is so excited about it: slow-pay vendors make PDC look really bad. When he can have affiliates paid directly, the use of PDC will probably explode.

-David

[Popstar]

The risk isn't in the script. I'm sure that both Sid and Mike have designed fine products. And there's no doubt that it's wonderful from an affiliate standpoint.

But as a business owner, the risk comes from someone else receiving money from the sale of your product before the refund period expires or in the event of a massive fraud or in the case of a physical product, if your fulfillment company folds before you've sent the product and so on. You don't have control of all the money so the risks aren't the same as if you do.

Maybe the affiliate is liable in some cases. But you've got to find him and collect first. Not always easy to do.

Maybe Paypal will let you off on a few sales. But if a lot of money is involved and they find this isn't working well for them, they may change the rules. A lot of people complain about frozen accounts with no warning, too.

Yes, there's risk in any business venture. That's why the bigger companies engage in risk management.

One or two sales of an inexpensive product can be covered by anyone. But a high dollar volume with financial shenanigans could bring down a company.

That's all I'm saying. None of us can say with certainty how this will play out in the long run.

It doesn't have anything to do with Sid. I've heard nothing but great things about him and on the basis of his reputation alone, I almost purchased RAP a while back.

I'm not yet comfortable with the risk, however improbable. But to those of you who are comfortable with it, I wish you the best.

Debbie

[SageSound]

Originally Posted by Popstar

That's all I'm saying. None of us can say with certainty how this will play out in the long run.

The $7 Secrets Script has been around for 3+ years.

The RAP script has been in use for 2+ years.

What kind of "in the long run" is acceptable in this case? If 2-3 years isn't sufficient, then Mike probably shouldn't bother upgrading PDC since everybody will just be sitting around waiting to see what the "real risks" are.

The "real risks" right now, today, are NOT with REFUNDS! They're with vendors who don't pay commissions in a timely manner, or at all! THAT is why Mike is so excited about this! It gets them out of the loop.

In case anybody is wondering why I'm being so vocal about this, it's because I have personally been STIFFED on THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS of affiliate earnings I've generated over the past 4 years by vendors who had nothing but excuses when it came to paying many of their affiliates.

There's a HUGE difference between referring a sale where you get paid IMMEDIATELY and one where you not only don't get paid for a while, but you cannot even check the payment status or even verify if the sales went through, and where you might not EVER get paid for whatever reason.

I'm speaking as an affiliate here -- I have lost FAR MORE in unpaid commissions than all the refunds I've ever had on my product sales in total.

And judging from the volume and frequency of complaints right here in the WF, there are a TON of Clickbank affiliates who are feeling my pain here in terms of getting cheated out of their commissions. This stuff absolutely DWARFS the refunds!

Personally speaking, I prefer getting paid immediately for sales I refer, rather than trusting affiliates in foreign countries against whom I have no legal recourse for failing to pay commission earnings.

But, hey, y'all can keep worrying about the risk of refunds, which have been relatively constant at ~5% for years across all payment mechanisms, and ignore the risk of losing entire commissions for undetectable and indeterminate reasons.

-David

[Popstar]

David,

You and I are talking apples and oranges. You're speaking as an affiliate; I'm talking as a business owner. I've already said that I agree that the instant commission structure is wonderful for affiliates.

As to the risk for a business owner, a couple of years doesn't mean the risk has been uncovered. Not to mention, it's more about volume of sales than time.

My area of expertise is finance. I know what I'm talking about.

It's not about the 99% of transactions that work and affiliates who are honest; it's about the 1% of them that could take your company down.

Same reason most people buy insurance. You don't buy it for the everyday events. You buy it for the outliers that can financially ruin you. Especially if you have a lot to lose.

You love instant payments. That's great and I'm happy for you. But you're treating the rest of us as though we have no business experience and you're using very demeaning language to characterize anyone who disagrees with you.

You're entitled to your opinion. But so are the rest of us.

I was more than willing to listen to the people who were trying to allay my concerns. In fact, I pressed the "thank you" button a few times. In the event that someone can convince me that this structure is safe enough, I'll try it.

I thought Richard Wing's approach was particularly helpful.

But so far, I'm not convinced. That's my opinion... and apparently, the opinion of some others who have commented on this thread.

I'm sure you're a decent person. And I can see why you would be angry at the people who cheated you, especially if some of them are highly-regarded marketers. Personally, I don't believe all the income claims I see bandied about by Internet marketers. The numbers don't always add up, in my opinion.

But that's exactly my point. How things should work isn't always how they do work.

I'm not going to continue to debate this with you. I've already said why I chose to highlight your "armchair quarterback" comment, among others. And I stand by what I said.

I wish you the greatest success with your business and I do hope that you receive all of your affiliate commissions from now on.

Good luck to you,
Debbie

[Sid Hale]

Hi Debbie,

Originally Posted by Popstar

David,

You and I are talking apples and oranges. You're speaking as an affiliate; I'm talking as a business owner. I've already said that I agree that the instant commission structure is wonderful for affiliates.

Actually, David speaks from both a merchant AND an affiliate's perspective. He is a very satisfied (can you tell) RAP customer, and he sells product using RAP. He is also an affiliate for other people's RAP-driven products. (as am I)

As to the risk for a business owner, a couple of years doesn't mean the risk has been uncovered. Not to mention, it's more about volume of sales than time.

My area of expertise is finance. I know what I'm talking about.

It's not about the 99% of transactions that work and affiliates who are honest; it's about the 1% of them that could take your company down.

If you review the Paypal presentation that Mike linked to in the OP, you'll see that in this model, the customer pays the affiliate directly. That same concept has been designed into the RAP model.

In both models, the affiliate is treated as the merchant for any given sale. Paypal's recourse is against that affiliate - not the creator of the product. In essence, affiliates are more like "resellers", and there is no financial tie to the product creator.

Paypal processed a financial transaction. If there is a refund, it can only be against the account that received the payment (the affiliate). So, a fraudulent affiliate ultimately pays the price. Their actions don't imperil a merchant's account status.

That 1% is less likely to make a blip on your radar screen - much less take your company down. They won't go away. We all know they will be around trying to "one up" the system, forever - but fear of change and the paralysis that results, can be much more damaging.

Heck, those fears can keep you from getting launched in the first place (but at least you wouldn't have to worry about that 1%).

You love instant payments. That's great and I'm happy for you. But you're treating the rest of us as though we have no business experience and you're using very demeaning language to characterize anyone who disagrees with you.

Maybe David is a little "vocal", or "adamant", but "demeaning"? Come on... he's frustrated (my opinion) at others not having had the "light bulb moment" and the uninformed comments that have been made.

I'm sure that's where the "armchair quarterback" comment came from. (Did he say that, or did I? If I didn't... I was certainly thinking it.)

You're entitled to your opinion. But so are the rest of us.

Yes. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but opinions have value only if they are informed opinions (you certainly don't want medical advice from me), and many of the opinions expressed just can't be backed up with research, experience, or facts.

Unfortunately, other people read them and many are gullible enough to believe them - so others (like David) feel compelled to rebut them. Isn't that's what forums are for - open discussion, debate, transfer of knowledge?

[SageSound]

Originally Posted by Popstar

David,

You and I are talking apples and oranges. You're speaking as an affiliate; I'm talking as a business owner. I've already said that I agree that the instant commission structure is wonderful for affiliates.

As to the risk for a business owner, a couple of years doesn't mean the risk has been uncovered. Not to mention, it's more about volume of sales than time.
. . .

My last post was mainly as an affiliate, but my previous posts were mainly as a vendor. Regardless, there doesn't seem to be anything anybody can say no matter how much direct experience RAP users have employing this payment mechanism that's going to satisfy some people. When Mike implements it in PDC, it's pretty clear that there will STILL be a lot of folks who will sit at the sidelines and avoid it just because of the "perceived risks".

I'm sorry if it seems arrogant to invite people into the water to alleviate their fears of swimming. The crocs and snakes live in your imagination, and those of us in the water are quite happy. But human psychology being what it is, people are going to make up their own minds for their own reasons, and sometimes the FACTS just aren't convincing.

If RAP were a brand new product and there was no sales history behind it, that would be different. But if 2+ years of transactions by nearly 2000 people, more than 10,000 products, and maybe a million transactions isn't sufficient to uncover the risks you perceive to exist, then there's really nothing more to be said. It'll NEVER be mature enough for you to use.

The alternative as a merchant is that you need to collect and disburse commissions on a regular basis, manage 1099's for your affiliates, deal with tax issues between domestic and "off-shore" affiliates, and put your affiliates at risk of not being paid for quite a while if your payment account gets frozen, which DOES happen from time to time. (There are no sales tax issues I'm aware of that need to be addressed using RAP, but that might change in the future.)

As an affiliate, you have to wait for 60-90 days to get paid, and you risk not getting credited for sales you referred and/or not getting paid at all. Based on my personal experience, I assert that the risk of these scenarios happening is FAR HIGHER than any problems that may arise from refunds around an immediate payment mechanism. But the arm-chair quarterbacks are free to disagree "in theory".

FYI: In case it hasn't been mentioned, if YOUR PayPal account is frozen for some reason -- as a merchant -- an instant commission payment mechanism like RAP does NOT prevent your affiliates from being paid! And since you're actually taking in a far smaller percentage of sales, the REAL RISK of having YOUR account frozen due to a surge in income is WAY LOWER.

By rough calculations, there are more total products being sold through RAP than there are through Clickbank, although the volume of sales on Clickbank are higher because it's a much more mature site that's been around much longer. It also hosts all of its products under one domain, while RAP lets you sell stuff from as many domains as you might want to use.

I'm aware of people (individuals) who have more than 1000 products for sale under RAP on their various domains, and those numbers are growing. Many have over 100, and lots of us have over a dozen.

Product prices vary from free to nearly $1000. They include single-payment and multi-payment (ie., recurring) options. There are simple mini-site sales pages all the way to sophisticated membership sites.

And that's just RAP. There have been tens of thousands of copies of the $7 Secrets Script distributed, and who knows how many products are being sold with it.

Here's the REAL "bottom-line": If you describe your product accurately and truthfully and you deliver value to your customers, you won't have significant problems with refunds. That's the risk that you as a MERCHANT have direct control over.

As far as the risks you do NOT have control over, I keep saying this over and over: it does not matter what the payment mechanism is!

If someone decides to set up some kind of a scam, they're not going to pick victims because of the affiliate payment mechanism that might be employed. And using RAP to set up a scam will be no more beneficial to them than using DLGuard, the $7 Secret Script, Clickbank, or just a plain old PayPal Payment button. Again, the risks are the same regardless. They're outside the merchant's control.

Either way, you fall back to PayPal's dispute resolution mechanisms to deal with uncontrollable risks. Sometimes they work in favor of the merchant/affiliate, and sometimes in favor of the customer. These policies have been around for years, and won't need to change much to address the new API functions. Again, they've been PROVEN TO WORK for over 3 years now.

Speaking as a merchant, refunds using this form of instant affiliate payment mechanism have been a non-issue for me, and apparently also for the other RAP users who've taken the time to reply here. That message just doesn't seem to be getting through.

Speaking as an affiliate, getting paid immediately is much preferred over waiting and waiting for commissions checks, which sometimes never arrive.

There really isn't much more that can be said. Either someone is going to feel comfortable that the 2+ years and 1M+ transactions that PayPal has processed using RAP is sufficient to have uncovered the REAL RISKS involved, or you won't. Apparently there's not much that long-time RAP users can say that will alleviate everybody's concerns, so once PDC implements such a payment mechanism, they won't be any more inclined to use it there than to use something like RAP today. And that's perfectly fine.

But if you're into affiliate sales, and you want to earn commissions PAID INSTANTLY between now and Christmas, you're advised to look for some RAP-based sales sites and promote THEM, because most affiliate programs are not going to pay you your commissions for sales going forward until AFTER Christmas at this point. You might have to issue a few refunds, but don't expect that to happen more than about 2% of the time for legitimate products -- based on 2+ years of sales history of RAP merchants.

'nuf said.

-David

[Chris Cabo]

Thanks for the heads up Mike.
Enjoy your day.

[mrsmaxxx]

Thanks Mike,

As a LDC member, I'll be watching!

Dale

[Popstar]

Sid,

I thought seriously of not responding to this thread any longer so as not to have this become a personal battle. As I've said, I intend no criticism of you or your product or anyone's product for that matter. But I do have concerns about how an instant payment commission system would affect my business.

So, if you would be so kind, I'd like to ask you to answer one final question for me...

I want to preface this by saying I'm quite serious about this; I'm not trying to be confrontational and I'd appreciate a professional answer without anyone telling me that I'm crazy, idiotic, or misinformed for daring to ask.

Setting aside potential issues of fraud for the moment... and assuming that you're correct that an affiliate would be considered to be a reseller under this structure and that I, as a business owner, would have no legal liability for the refund of any payments made to affiliates...

What is the benefit to me of using RAP or any other instant payment commission structure if:

1. I employ accountants so I don't care if I have to issue 1099s or do any other kind of accounting for affiliates because it doesn't really affect the cost structure of my company...

2. If Paypal freezes my account, it doesn't affect my ability to pay affiliates, issue customer refunds, continue to run my business or put food on my table (in other words, I have sufficient funds elsewhere no matter how much Paypal freezes)...

3. My company's reputation is paramount to me and I would rather issue refunds without question to any customers who've been stiffed by unethical affiliates than force them to go through the often frustrating Paypal dispute resolution system, even if it means that I take a loss (and I have done so before when I had technical difficulties with a shopping cart) if an affiliate refuses to issue a timely refund...

Again, I'm talking about my priorities only. I'm not basing my decision on whether someone else got cheated as an affiliate.

To me, the instant payment commission structure appears to shift the risk of loss from the affiliate to the business owner. If that's not so, please tell me what I'm not seeing (keeping in mind that I intend to refund customers who've been cheated by my affiliates).

Also, is Paypal the only method of paying affiliates under this structure? In one of David's comments, he said that Paypal wouldn't identify his affiliate when there was a potential problem. Are there any safeguards built into your product (I know you can't speak for others on this one) to actually identify affiliates who behave this way?

Okay, I guess I've asked more than one question. But those are my concerns for my business beyond fraud and the legal status of the affiliates as resellers (which I'll resolve on my own).

Thanks in advance,
Debbie

[Johnny Slater]

Debbie,

Using systems like RAP is not just about the benefits to "you." The main benefits of any instant payment system revolve around the affiliates, as they are designed in a specific way to encourage people to want to be your affiliate.

Instant payment systems are by nature affiliate focused because the entire concept of them is to make it easier to bring in more affiliates than people not using them.

The number one benefit to you personally by using an instant payment system is having a larger affiliate base who are actually happy to promote your products and who will actually take steps to do promotion because they know they won't get stiffed for commissions that they have built up over a few weeks or a month.

With standard affiliate systems there is always the risk that the program owner will just decide to not pay out the commissions and just pocket the extra money. This happens more than most people are willing to admit, and even some big names in IM have been guilty of this from time to time. With instant payment commissions this risk is removed and your affiliates are more willing to promote for you because they can trust that they will get their fair share because of the way that commissions are handled.

Honestly, what better benefit do you need than having more affiliates, and more affiliates who are actually happy to do some work to promote your products. Do you want 100,000 affiliates who wont do any promotion because they don't want to wait weeks to get paid a commission, or 5000 affiliates who promote every product you release because they know they get paid for every commission instantly?

Personally, I'll take the 5000 any day. Besides, if you can get 100,000 affiliates with a standard affiliate program then getting 200,000 would be a snap if those affiliates were paid instantly. It has been proven time and time again that instant commission structures actually improve your bottom line, involve less risk all around, and encourage more active affiliates. What more could you ask for?

[tommygreatboom]

This is very good info.
Hope clickbank gonna apply this system soon.

[theinfomaven]

My only question is this:

*WHEN* do all of these changes take effect?

[Sid Hale]

Hi Debbie,

Originally Posted by Popstar

Sid,

I thought seriously of not responding to this thread any longer so as not to have this become a personal battle. As I've said, I intend no criticism of you or your product or anyone's product for that matter. But I do have concerns about how an instant payment commission system would affect my business.

...and I hope you didn't take anything I said personally. Your input on this topic has been some of the more rational, and your questions were welcome.

So, if you would be so kind, I'd like to ask you to answer one final question for me...

<snip>

To me, the instant payment commission structure appears to shift the risk of loss from the affiliate to the business owner. If that's not so, please tell me what I'm not seeing (keeping in mind that I intend to refund customers who've been cheated by my affiliates).

I also refund customers when an affiliate doesn't take care of it. I won't leave a customer out in the cold.

Often, the customer opens a resolution with Paypal, so if the sale was awarded to the affiliate, it's the affiliate's Paypal account. Paypal doesn't even know I exist, with regard to that particular transaction.

That said, I certainly try to get the affiliate to voluntarily honor my guarantee (60 days). If the customer contacts me, I forward the request to the affiliate.

Usually, the affiliate will take care of the refund (they know that the customer can just come against their Paypal account), but if they don't - I cover it myself, and then I ban that affiliate. Any other referrals from a banned affiliate, are automatically awarded to me.

Also, is Paypal the only method of paying affiliates under this structure? In one of David's comments, he said that Paypal wouldn't identify his affiliate when there was a potential problem. Are there any safeguards built into your product (I know you can't speak for others on this one) to actually identify affiliates who behave this way?

It's the only payment method that RAP supports. I won't go into the "why's", but while we have looked at adding other options, insurmountable obstacles have thwarted each effort, to date.

As for Paypal not identifying the affiliate, we do currently allow an affiliate to promote without registration (i.e. with Paypal email address). The next release will have the option of disallowing promotion by unregistered affiliates. As mentioned earlier, RAP also provides the ability to Ban affiliates, and will not put any subsequent sales through their account.

Hope this helps,

[Sid Hale]

Hi Tommy,

Originally Posted by tommygreatboom

This is very good info.
Hope clickbank gonna apply this system soon.

From my analysis of the new Paypal APIs, Clickbank will NOT be able to implement them. I've discussed this with other developers, and they have come to the same conclusion.

The new API is for real-time distribution of revenue, and ClickBank's business model relies heavily on batch payment, with reserves held in anticipation of refunds. There is just nothing in their business model that would lend itself to real-time distribution of funds.

[Michelle Brouse]

Ok, I've just read bits and pieces here, but I'm a rap user. I think Sid has a great product, and that he treats all of us clients REALLY well. He is available at all hours and has NEVER let me down. I've owned rap since it was new at 67 bucks with lifetime upgrades, and he meant lifetime, cause I never fail to get an update.

Here's how I work things... incidentally - just had a paypal dispute over a rap product. My client did not get their download, and DID send me an email first - but I never saw it. I had no clue anything was wrong, till I caught the dispute in paypal.

He paid with an echeck, and Sid... doesn't RAP STILL automatically route to the DL link even if it's an echeck? I don't care if someone pays with an echeck and gets the download automatically after that - but apparently this person did not.

Well, once I figured out what the issue was, of course I fixed him up with a link and the dispute was dropped. Client and I are just fine, just happened that he didn't get routed automatically, and said that he didn't expect to - because of the echeck. I didn't KNOW that he didn't get routed automatically, or I would have sent him a manual link.

Point being - anyone running a business online should consider their clients top priority. Heck a business period, even OFFLINE.

If there is an issue, and it's YOUR product - YOU fix it. I don't care if one of your affiliates sold YOUR Product - and they come to you and say "HEY - I got a refund request on your Product - what do I do?"

You say - "refund your client through your paypal account, and I'll pass the cash to YOU for being the affiliate."

IF you are on a rap channel that is basically how it would work to my knowledge. Why would the affiliate be responsible for a refund on YOUR product? They didn't create it - you did. Yes, they sold it - so what. Why should they take the loss on YOUR product?

Well, that's just the way I see, it and call me goofy - but I don't have any problem refunding for an aff because they are helping ME! It's MY prod. Not theirs. If they help me sell, then I at least OWE them that favor.

Now, I know there are affiliates that can also get you into trouble for spamming and what not, but so far I have not had that kind of trouble. I would block a person like that pretty quick, but seriously - I don't see any issue with refunding a client of your own product whether it was sold from YOU or from your AFFILIATE.

K, jump all over me about that view. I can take it.

Thanks!
Michelle

[Michelle Brouse]

all right, I finally read through the rest of this post.

shees.

Why does everyone have to make everything so complicated for one, and for two - nice of Mike to stop by and let us know what was up with this.

Led to a lot of great discussion, some I'm for, some I'm not - as per post above.

Be nice if Mike would discuss a bit more after bringing it up however - seems his second post after beginning it in the first place was to defend the "high buck status" instead of saying what he's plannin on doing, what he's not, what he thinks etc.

I really have no room to talk cause I haven't been in here in forever, but crap. Start a thread, at least join in. And that ain't personal. Don't care if you have money or not, see what I'm sayin?

And I'm particularly surprised at the folks who are so worried about refunds, chargebacks, etc.

Makes me think I don't sell enough - or something. (ha!) - because if yer selling why the issue in the first place? My gosh, is everyone on this planet so geared to what matters for THEM and THEIR sales that they don't give a crap about THEIR clients, or little folks like me who do enough to pay the bills?

It seems to me, that it's the exact thinking (over thinking - over analyzing - just in it for me) mentality that creates half the freakin problems, not only on the net but off it too.

Come on people.

It ain't just me.

Thanks,
Michelle

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by SageSound

uh, you look it up in your RAP Admin panel...

I'm talking about using PayPal and an immediate payment mechanism like RAP. I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

The only two scripts that I know of that do immediate payments to affiliates are RAP and the $7 Secrets script, and they both use PayPal exclusively.

Personally, I would not even ATTEMPT to do immediate affiliate payments through a traditional merchant processing gateway.

-David

You all seem to be indicating that the IPN sends a message to the author who then sends a notice to you. There are TOO many problems with that, and it is just DUMB! If it notified YOU, and then him, he couldn't be sure. If it notified HIM, you couldn't be sure, and that would be just DUMB! And we ALL know it CAN'T notify both of you.

STILL, refunds are BOUND to happen and, if you don't have access to the funds, YOU have to pay for the refund. Clickbank is a company that won't take such risks, and so I doubt they would risk it. Of course, paypal COULD aleviate that by doing it on THEIR end but that would make things much the same as they are. We ALL know how people LOVE(sarc) them, for doing such things.

Steve

[milan]

Originally Posted by seasoned

You all seem to be indicating that the IPN sends a message to the author who then sends a notice to you. There are TOO many problems with that, and it is just DUMB! If it notified YOU, and then him, he couldn't be sure. If it notified HIM, you couldn't be sure, and that would be just DUMB! And we ALL know it CAN'T notify both of you.

Lol Steve, IPN doesn't notify a person but a (product's) website. So yes, no problems at all to notify both people or whoever you want.

[JAIDEEP2959]

That is a great news.

Paydotcom will get more affiliates and can give strong competition to Clickbank.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by milan

Lol Steve, IPN doesn't notify a person but a (product's) website. So yes, no problems at all to notify both people or whoever you want.

YEAH, I KNOW it notifies a website, but I am not aware of the ability to have it notify TWO, from the same transaction!

[Sid Hale]

Hi Steve,

Originally Posted by seasoned

You all seem to be indicating that the IPN sends a message to the author who then sends a notice to you. There are TOO many problems with that, and it is just DUMB! If it notified YOU, and then him, he couldn't be sure. If it notified HIM, you couldn't be sure, and that would be just DUMB! And we ALL know it CAN'T notify both of you.

Gee - that's odd.
I got one for $297 before 5:00 am this morning (I was asleep).

So apparently, you are the only one who knows that

it CAN'T notify both of you.

As Milan (just above) stated, the IPN (Instant Payment Notification) goes to the merchant, regardless of whether the sale went to his/her Paypal account or the affiliate's! RAP receives that and records the sale in the merchant's database. Optionally, RAP will send the merchant an IPN notification email (just one more way to stay on top of things).

And remember...
this isn't new. I have transactions from affiliates that date back to 20 September 2007 recorded in my RAP database, so it's been working that way for quite a while.

and... I don't think that basing our statements on recorded fact is DUMB!

[Johnny Slater]

Steve, the IPN just sends notification of a transaction to a web site. What happens then is completely up to how that site is coded. It is quite possible to have an IPN script to notify multiple people of a single transaction. For instance, SMP currently sends an email to the buyer and to the site admin once the IPN has been notified of a transaction. It would only require a small amount of work to add in the ability to notify the affiliate who earned commisions, a site partner, or even 100 other people if it was wanted.

The IPN is just notification of a transactions details. What happens to that data after PayPal sends it out varies depending on what script it is sent to, but multiple notifications are done by many scripts and is a very common thing.

[Sid Hale]

Hey Steve,

Originally Posted by seasoned

YEAH, I KNOW it notifies a website, but I am not aware of the ability to have it notify TWO, from the same transaction!

Your prior response was pretty strong, for someone who is now "not aware of".

It doesn't have to notify two websites (although it certainly could if that's what Paypal wanted to do).

In fact, affiliates often won't even have a website to notify.

Paypal has always notified, via email, both the buyer and the seller. On an affiliate sale, the seller email goes to the affiliate - but the IPN transaction ALWAYS goes back to the merchant's website, so everyone has been notified and the merchant can record that sale on his database, or whatever.

You really should save the more adamant statements for those situations where you know (first hand) what you're talking about.

[romesaranto]

Thanks for the heads up. Cleaning out the fraud should be very good for the industry. I really like the idea of the point of purchase commissions.

thanks again.

[milan]

Originally Posted by seasoned

YEAH, I KNOW it notifies a website, but I am not aware of the ability to have it notify TWO, from the same transaction!

Look at Sid's answer. I'd say there is no need at all to notify more than one site. Perhaps (?!) there might be a scenario where this would be useful, but in such case the one site which got notified by Paypal can simply notify other sites. Those (other) sites can also check with Paypal if the notification is genuine or not.

But with most situations, like Sid says, affiliates might not even have their own sites.

[Sid Hale]

Thanks Michelle,

Originally Posted by Michelle Brouse

He paid with an echeck, and Sid... doesn't RAP STILL automatically route to the DL link even if it's an echeck? I don't care if someone pays with an echeck and gets the download automatically after that - but apparently this person did not.

No. That customer will see the payment timeout screen (there's verbiage there to indicate that he/she will receive a download email when their payment clears).

In fact, Paypal advises that you don't deliver goods to someone who's paid by eCheck until the payment clears - but I understand your point, and sometimes I will give a customer the product if he's paid by eCheck, depending on the price of the product and the "tone/believability" of the help desk ticket they submit when they don't get sent to the download.

If there is an issue, and it's YOUR product - YOU fix it. I don't care if one of your affiliates sold YOUR Product - and they come to you and say "HEY - I got a refund request on your Product - what do I do?"

You say - "refund your client through your paypal account, and I'll pass the cash to YOU for being the affiliate."

IF you are on a rap channel that is basically how it would work to my knowledge. Why would the affiliate be responsible for a refund on YOUR product? They didn't create it - you did. Yes, they sold it - so what. Why should they take the loss on YOUR product?

You can certainly do that, but there really is no need to re-imburse them for the refund. RAP will automatically set them up to be next in the rotation, so they will get their very next referred sale to compensate for the refund. If they were already scheduled to be next... they will now get their next 2 sales. Of course, that only works if they continue to promote for you, but if they don't, why should you be bailing them out on refunds?

RAP is already very "pro affiliate", so you really shouldn't have to bend over backwards to keep their loyalty.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

Steve, the IPN just sends notification of a transaction to a web site. What happens then is completely up to how that site is coded. It is quite possible to have an IPN script to notify multiple people of a single transaction. For instance, SMP currently sends an email to the buyer and to the site admin once the IPN has been notified of a transaction. It would only require a small amount of work to add in the ability to notify the affiliate who earned commisions, a site partner, or even 100 other people if it was wanted.

The IPN is just notification of a transactions details. What happens to that data after PayPal sends it out varies depending on what script it is sent to, but multiple notifications are done by many scripts and is a very common thing.

I don't think any of you are following me. I was talking about the IPN, FROM PAYPAL! If you know of a way to change paypal's code with "a small amount of work", I'm sure we would ALL want to hear it. Of course, doing so makes it all the more questionable.

YEAH, I know another party could REPEAT it(Send a message that appears to be like IPN, or an email), but would they? Could you enforce it? Still, my main point is that refunds can get harder if something isn't done to handle that provision.

Everyone seems to just be trusting that refunds WON'T happen! HECK, I do Probably over 6 transactions a day. Over 1800 a year! They range from perhaps a dollar to THOUSANDS. I generally DON'T ask for refunds! Yet I have probably done so about 7-8 times, and did about 4-5 chargebacks, over the past 30 years. Some here talk like they have people that do refunds ALL THE TIME! So don't think it won't happen.

As for my saying "not aware" after "It can't be done", it is more of a giving you the benefit of the doubt, then anything else.

BTW in 2005 I DID work on an ecommerce package and added about 2 dozen charge gateways. Three of them were paypal standard, paypal pro express, and paypal pro. And that wasn't the first time I did that sort of thing. So YEAH, I do know how they work, and am familiar with IPN.

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

Steve, the IPN just sends notification of a transaction to a web site. What happens then is completely up to how that site is coded. It is quite possible to have an IPN script to notify multiple people of a single transaction. For instance, SMP currently sends an email to the buyer and to the site admin once the IPN has been notified of a transaction. It would only require a small amount of work to add in the ability to notify the affiliate who earned commisions, a site partner, or even 100 other people if it was wanted.

The IPN is just notification of a transactions details. What happens to that data after PayPal sends it out varies depending on what script it is sent to, but multiple notifications are done by many scripts and is a very common thing.

I don't think any of you are following me. I was talking about the IPN, FROM PAYPAL! If you know of a way to change paypal's code with "a small amount of work", I'm sure we would ALL want to hear it. Of course, doing so makes it all the more questionable.

YEAH, I know another party could REPEAT it(Send a message that appears to be like IPN, or an email), but would they? Could you enforce it? Still, my main point is that refunds can get harder if something isn't done to handle that provision.

Everyone seems to just be trusting that refunds WON'T happen! HECK, I do Probably over 6 transactions a day. Over 1800 a year! They range from perhaps a dollar to THOUSANDS. I generally DON'T ask for refunds! Yet I have probably done so about 7-8 times, and did about 4-5 chargebacks, over the past 30 years. Some here talk like they have people that do refunds ALL THE TIME! So don't think it won't happen.

As for my saying "not aware" after "It can't be done", it is more of a giving you the benefit of the doubt, then anything else.

BTW in 2005 I DID work on an ecommerce package and added about 2 dozen charge gateways. Two of them were paypal standard, paypal pro express, and paypal pro(paypal pro express was required to use paypal pro, so I am counting the two as one). And that wasn't the first time I did that sort of thing. So YEAH, I do know how they work, and am familiar with IPN.

Steve

[Sid Hale]

Hi Steve,

Originally Posted by seasoned

I don't think any of you are following me. I was talking about the IPN, FROM PAYPAL! If you know of a way to change paypal's code with "a small amount of work", I'm sure we would ALL want to hear it. Of course, doing so makes it all the more questionable.

Sorry, but YOU are the one that isn't understanding. No one is changing Paypal's code. An IPN is sent to the MERCHANT's IPN script (in our case a RAP supplied script, and the same for all merchants running RAP).

It does recognize and process refunds. It marks a sale in the RAP database as refunded. If running one of the Certified RAP Add Ons, it cancels subscriptions and disallows login by that customer from that point forward.

Paypal is just the payment processor. Using the IPN mechanism, it notifies the script (in this case, RAP) of everything pertaining to the original purchase (including cancellations and refunds), and then it is the script's job to take the necessary action - which RAP does nicely, thank you.

YEAH, I know another party could REPEAT it(Send a message that appears to be like IPN, or an email), but would they? Could you enforce it? Still, my main point is that refunds can get harder if something isn't done to handle that provision.

And our point has been that something IS done... and HAS BEEN being done. It's not a new problem, nor is RAP a new solution, and Paypal handles these issues as well as, if not better than, any other payment processor available.

Instant Payment Notification allows a merchant to get all of the financial information direct from the payment processor, on a real-time basis. Since the IPN processing is a background, server-to-server process, the merchant's IPN script can process the transaction data prior to showing the "customer" a download page, and disallow the download if there is a recognizable problem.

Could you do it? I don't think so. Not without spending a lot of development time or dollars to have it custom written for you - but then neither could most of my customers.

That's why it is supplied as part of the RAP script.

Everyone seems to just be trusting that refunds WON'T happen! HECK, I do Probably over 6 transactions a day. Over 1800 a year! They range from perhaps a dollar to THOUSANDS. I generally DON'T ask for refunds! Yet I have probably done so about 7-8 times, and did about 4-5 chargebacks, over the past 30 years. Some here talk like they have people that do refunds ALL THE TIME! So don't think it won't happen.

Steve, no one trusts that they won't happen, and no one implied that anywhere in this thread! You've just assumed it.

RAP users KNOW they happen. All of us receive them - but RAP and other IPN based scripts handle them within the functionality of that particular script.

Do we make them go away? Can we make them not happen?

NO! Nor can any merchant account. Nor PayDotCom, nor Clickbank.

But we can process them, after the fact, as well as any other solution out there.

Clickbank chooses to do it by holding your money (and your affiliate's) in reserve to protect themselves from fraud. A reasonable solution when there was no better alternative, but it doesn't reduce the fraudulent transactions. It just gives them a way to cover those transactions. Today, there are better solutions.

To the best of my knowledge, PDC has nothing in place to protect against this sort of fraud (nor to insure that affiliates get paid by the merchants), and it affects the value of the service that they provide. That is (in my opinion) why the potential for Paypal's new Adaptive Payments API is so attractive to Mike Filsaime. He can use that to enhance the service he provides, and therefore the value of the PDC marketplace.

RAP, on the other hand, (working within the constraints of the existing [pre Adaptive Payments] Paypal processing) provides a system today that gives as much (or more) protection as any other solution available, and STILL provides for "instant commissions" to the affiliates.

As for my saying "not aware" after "It can't be done", it is more of a giving you the benefit of the doubt, then anything else.

BTW in 2005 I DID work on an ecommerce package and added about 2 dozen charge gateways. Two of them were paypal standard, paypal pro express, and paypal pro(paypal pro express was required to use paypal pro, so I am counting the two as one). And that wasn't the first time I did that sort of thing. So YEAH, I do know how they work, and am familiar with IPN.

Whoa... YOU are giving ME the benefit of the doubt?

Before we get into that... saying "It can't be done" is not a problem. It was your use of the word DUMB in all caps, multiple times in your post, to which I take offense. I think you owe that person an apology.

Steve, I'm more than just "familiar" with IPN processing. I developed my first IPN script in 2002 and it is still running today. In 2003 that script was enhanced to process transactions for a second web site on a different server. Both sites are still taking monthly paying members today (and processing any refund requests, as necessary).

I'm an old fart, Steve. There aren't many jobs in IT that I haven't done, and for the past 25 years I've been self-employed (so there aren't many other hats I haven't worn, either). I don't want to get into a pi##ing contest, and there's no room here for my resume, anyway. Suffice it to say that, I don't need any special dispensation from you.

[Chris Pambos]

Excellent post Mike Filsaime, this is definitely a game changer for internet marketing.

[SageSound]

Johnny has done an excellent job of restating what I've not been able to communicate effectively. But I did want to clariy this point for all concerned, because it's an excellent question:

Originally Posted by Popstar

In one of David's comments, he said that Paypal wouldn't identify his affiliate when there was a potential problem. Are there any safeguards built into your product (I know you can't speak for others on this one) to actually identify affiliates who behave this way?

Most affiliate software, including RAP, does give you the ability to know SOMETHING about your affiliates; if nothing more, you'll have their PayPal email addy.

For privacy reasons, PayPal won't discuss anything regarding anybody you may have paid, or who paid you. That is, they won't tell you anything you don't already know. In cases involving questionable transactions, this can be a bit infuriating if you're supposed to be the one deciding what to do, but nobody will tell you anything.

For example, people will sometimes file a dispute over silly things -- like they're pissed off that you won't reply to their emails, but you have, only they aren't checking their spam folder. So they think filing a dispute will get your attention. They're not looking for a refund; they just want you to stop ignoring them. PayPal doesn't really like those situations any more than you or I do, but there's very little they're willing to do to help resolve the situation either.

In case of instant affiliate payments, it's an even stickier situation because your customers pay your affiliates directly -- you're totally out of the loop. You only know that a transaction occurred, and you have whatever may be in the IPN email about it (if you get them), but other than that, you're really little more than an "innocent bystander" as far as PayPal is concerned.

It'll be interesting to see what happens once some software implements PayPal's new API's because it seems that payments will be split among multiple parties. That tells me that we, as vendors, will no longer be regarded as "innocent bystanders" by PayPal in such transactions, but will have a more active roll as a bona fide party to the transaction.

I doubt PayPal will alter their Privacy policies at all, but at least you may have some more legal rights that you don't have with current instant payment mechanisms.

It's hard to say right now. We'll just have to see how things unfold.

-David

[SageSound]

Originally Posted by seasoned

You all seem to be indicating that the IPN sends a message to the author who then sends a notice to you. There are TOO many problems with that, and it is just DUMB! If it notified YOU, and then him, he couldn't be sure. If it notified HIM, you couldn't be sure, and that would be just DUMB! And we ALL know it CAN'T notify both of you.
. . .
Steve

You're welcome to call it DUMB Steve, but it's the way a number of scripts work today: RAP, DLGuard, aMember, and a handful of other less-known scripts.

What's your beef here?

The purpose of PayPal's IPN mechanism is to allow vendors to manage transactions more effectively. Without it, you have no way of knowing if a payment was made successfully, or whether it was a direct payment or a pending payment (via an eCheck, say).

The IPN's contain verified shipping data if that's needed.

IPNs are also triggered when refunds are issued. That way your script can automatically terminate memberships based on recurring payments

IPN's are the real-time handshaking that happens to make the scripts more user-friendly.

Also, it's the vendor's site that gets the IPN -- not the affiliate. The affiliate has no need for this information, and could be prohibited from getting it due to privacy restrictions.

The IPN mechanisms that are currently in place seem to do a fine job of things. So I can't really tell if you're complaining or saying something is broken or what.

-David

[Jim Symonds]

This is great news, Mike.

Thanks for sharing!

I had this idea and sent it off to Alertpay just days ago, myself.

I encourage everyone to get involved, if they want to see this in Alertpay. Please visit this thread, and vote:

New Alertpay Instant Mass Pay Proposal - Good or Bad? Cast Your Vote!

Thank you!
Jim

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by SageSound

You're welcome to call it DUMB Steve, but it's the way a number of scripts work today: RAP, DLGuard, aMember, and a handful of other less-known scripts.

Actually, Sam, the AUTHOR of dlguard, said his DIDN'T work like this(Immediately paying several affiliates, or even ONE) yet. Paypal JUST came up with it, so how could ANY work like that. OK, MAYBE today, but not several months ago.

Steve

[Johnny Slater]

Steve, he was talking about up front instant commissions and there are several scripts that have been around for a long time that do use this model. RAP has been around for 2 years providing real time commissions at the time of sale. It is not something new and considering it has been around so long I'm very surprised you have no clue about how it works.

RAP isn't the only script that works this way either. The $7 secrets script uses the same model, RAP was built as an advanced script built on the model that the $7 script introduced 3 years ago. Even SMP which has been out as long as RAP has allows this feature, provided you have the commission set at 100%. With 100% commissions the sale goes directly to the affiliate and anything less than 100% is held by the site owner and paid out later like a standard affiliate program.

I myself have spent the last 6 months developing my own full membership solution that pays commissions at the time of sale using very similar methods to the way that RAP works. Paying multiple people at the same time may be something new that PayPal just opened up but allowing real time commissions is not a new thing.

[SageSound]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Actually, Sam, the AUTHOR of dlguard, said his DIDN'T work like this(Immediately paying several affiliates, or even ONE) yet. Paypal JUST came up with it, so how could ANY work like that. OK, MAYBE today, but not several months ago.

Steve

Steve, you're not tracking the conversation.

The thing I was responding to (that I quoted in that post) was a statement you made about how IPNs work. And yes, DLGuard works with IPNs the exact same way as RAP and other scripts. It does not send out multiple copies, it doesn't NEED to sent out mutliple copies, and there's no need to send IPNs to customers as you seem to be implying even if there are multiple payees.

The IPN is for the VENDOR to use (well, for his script) to verify that payment was made successfully or not. It's not for use by the PAYEEs, and might violate privacy terms if they ARE copied to any of the PAYEEs -- whether there's just one or several.

DLGuard does not currently support affiliates at all (and never has). But it DOES utilize IPNs to control its logic.

-David

[DAS_Matt]

So, when is this stuff supposed to be ready to go?