Why can't the core theory of MLM work?

[The 13th Warrior]

Just got an email from someone promoting some high, HIGH ticket MLM product.

From what little I know, the best chance a legit MLM has is selling products the customer would use daily ANYWAY, with or without the business opportunity.

The concept seems simple. Its almost like profit-sharing or being on a board of directors.

Company has a product and returns bulk of profits as reward in several ways.

1) like wholesalers, if you buy in bulk and use a certain amount for personal use, you get a discount rate

Like a rebate or reward for continued use of the product, longevity reward, and amount of usage.

2) Promoting a product you already use everyday anyway, you get upfront reward plus a percentage that is realistic that would not hurt the company but reward you like a commission salesman

3) This "shared" co-owner, shareholder, commission salesman, wholesaler, bulk rewards user,board member is given to all users of the product.., so you are both consumer and potential salesman, option only.

That means you are not just an employee but have a stake in the company, why can't a percentage of businesses operate in good faith like this? Of course it is the business owners option.

But a profit sharing model gives more stake in it to the employee/consumer/potential commission salesman/potential business builder.

The way Apple has open source for some of its products, so if the consumer of said product has an idea to create something, Apple says, "hey, lets split the profits".

The consumer is now a developer without being on the payroll and gets a commission for his invention, recurring income.

Now how great is that?

The CONSUMER creating off-shoots of the product they want to put cash in your companies pocket. Now, all the consumers are potential developers, unending number of product developers, little factories not on the payroll making what they want and pay YOU for it.

So whether you option for the business side of it, or simply use MORE of the product because you like it, you win, the company wins.

Since most only want to see the bulk profits in their pocket , trying to get as close to or better than 100% or more profit, or like the health care industries, 1000's% profit, these models are not the owners liking.

Maybe a business owner first starting out seems legit to get as much profit as possible.

But once you become a multi-million or billion dollar company, hey, how about the next subsidiary company you build, you give back to your loyal employees and consumers, and can STILL make a profit?

Pension funds would be unnecessary to most as most become profit-share holders/business builders. At a certain level, one can then finance their own medical, dental, vision, pension, unemployment, etc.

Thats what world economies need, employees/business owners, not mules and slaves dependent on someone to hire them....this model would also bleed into the education system, the cause of folks that even have multiple degrees to " look for a job ", not build or create one.

It would seem to help everyone.

Might even work for businesses on the start-up, who knows.

I will now stop smoking my mushrooms.

The 13 th Warrior

[LMC]

Dude don't know about the MLM thing,

but you have my two favorite clips in your sig, so just wanted to give you props.

[Slin]

MLM does not work because the product is always being sold for as more then it is worth.

This is to pay commission on the product. Problem is let's say you are selling the product to other people, they have no reason to buy it, but ah! Then you point out they can make money selling the product, in fact with two sells it pays for itself!

And they sell, you get money, they get money, until finally you can't find anymore buyers, nether can they, now the guys at the bottom are losing money! They quit! The next guys are losing money! They quit!

And all the way up, all MLM's seem to end this way, the ones that stay around (Noni and all of them, totally just forgot the names) change their system so that it is not so MLM anymore.

Don't get involved..

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by Slin

MLM does not work because the product is always being sold for as more then it is worth.

This is to pay commission on the product. Problem is let's say you are selling the product to other people, they have no reason to buy it, but ah! Then you point out they can make money selling the product, in fact with two sells it pays for itself!

And they sell, you get money, they get money, until finally you can't find anymore buyers, nether can they, now the guys at the bottom are losing money! They quit! The next guys are losing money! They quit!

And all the way up, all MLM's seem to end this way, the ones that stay around (Noni and all of them, totally just forgot the names) change their system so that it is not so MLM anymore.

Don't get involved..

See... the problem with making general statements is that you will
always be wrong... as you are with your generalization that all MLM
products are overpriced in order to pay commissions and bonuses.

In fact, the product I represent via an MLM is about 1/3rd to 1/5th the cost
of lower quality products readily available in the market.

In addition, there are several products distributed via MLM companies
that are the #1 selling product in their category... in America. It's hard
to imagine they'd have that kind of success with overpriced products.

If you'd like to know more there's a link below...

Tsnyder

[Tsnyder]

Oh... and Slin... your assertion that MLM does not work is laughable.

Tsnyder

[Alexa Smith]

Just out of interest, do you mind sharing the name of the "high, HIGH ticket MLM product" about which you received the email?

[bgmacaw]

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

Oh... and Slin... your assertion that MLM does not work is laughable.

And your assertion that it works without ripping off most of the people involved in one is laughable.

[phil.wheatley]

I did MLM for a while, sorry in advance for sweeping statement, but it sucks. You make money by peddling crap to other people in your downline, and then they peddle more crap to their downline. It made me laugh when the top mlm dude said "this is not a pyramid scheme" - that's like when the pilot of a plane gets on the tannoy and says "Ladies and Gentlemen, there's nothing to worry about".

[Tsnyder]

We've had this pointless discussion many times on this forum.

Those of us who treat the business like professionals would treat
any business know the truth and the facts.

Those of you who dipped your toe in the water and failed to do
your due diligence on companies, products or sponsors are entitled
to your opinions but please don't tell those of us who know better that
your opinions should be taken as facts.

The funny thing is all the naysayers are, themselves, engaged in a business
(IM) that surely has a greater failure rate than MLM.

Tsnyder

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by phil.wheatley

I did MLM for a while, sorry in advance for sweeping statement, but it sucks. You make money by peddling crap to other people in your downline, and then they peddle more crap to their downline. It made me laugh when the top mlm dude said "this is not a pyramid scheme" - that's like when the pilot of a plane gets on the tannoy and says "Ladies and Gentlemen, there's nothing to worry about".

Phil...

With all due respect your post tells me that you really know
absolutely nothing about how legitimate MLMs operate.

I peddle nothing to those in my downline. I have many actual
retail customers using my product/service. None of them think it's
crap.

That's how real businesses operate, init?

Tsnyder

[phil.wheatley]

Tsnyder

I don't think we doubt it doesn't work, I know for sure that you can make money doing it. But honestly, does it feel like a real business to you? Something sustainable long term. You're absolutely right, many other methods are more difficult and take more effort, like product creation, but when you stick at it and get it working, it will be more rewarding and long term. Do you honestly feel goodby calling up people and coaxing them into buying crap?

Well, ok, maybe I'm showing my ignorance, and didn't spend enough time in it, but that is because I just didn't feel comfortable doing it. I mean, the guy who introdiced me to it, make plenty money because I spent 300 fkin bucks on stuff I'd never heard of, the sales videos were really slick, and I got taken for a ride.

So, please tell me how it is supposed to happen and how it benefits people? And that is not supposed to sound sarcastic, I honestly want to see if I missed the point?

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

I have many actual
retail customers using my product/service. None of them think it's
crap.

I think that is the key right there for legit success without scamming customers.

They are going to use the product anyway, with or without the "make money" opportunity.

The 13 th Warrior

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Just out of interest, do you mind sharing the name of the "high, HIGH ticket MLM product" about which you received the email?

Carbon Copy PRO



The 13 th Warrior

[DogScout]

even if 99% of MLM formats are set up wrong does not mean it cannot be set up right. In any multiple streams of income scenario, it has it's place. (IMO). Like any opportunity it takes research and due diligence and is not for everyone. Neither is real estate or being a lawyer. if it it not for you, do not include it in your MSOI.

[bgmacaw]

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

Those of us who treat the business like professionals would treat
any business know the truth and the facts.

Henry Rollins explains how MLMs work in this video...

YouTube - Henry Rollins

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by The 13 th Warrior

Carbon Copy PRO

The 13 th Warrior

Thanks, 13. I asked because I quite strongly suspected from the wording in your original post that this was going to turn out to be something that actually isn't an MLM. And that is indeed the case.

"Carbon Copy Pro" is a funded proposal system for a company called Wealth Masters International, which isn't MLM.

When people say "high-ticket MLM" it almost always turns out not to be MLM.

[phil.wheatley]

sorry, I'm being silly now, but here's Bill Hicks talking about MLM ;-)

YouTube - Bill Hicks - Piece of ****

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by phil.wheatley

Tsnyder

I don't think we doubt it doesn't work, I know for sure that you can make money doing it. But honestly, does it feel like a real business to you? Something sustainable long term.

I built a huge business with a company in the mid to late 80's. I haven't
been actively involved with them since 1991. I still receive my monthly
residual checks. I'd call that sustainable long term. I'm in the process of
building another at this moment. It, too, will produce long term residual
income when I'm done.

You're absolutely right, many other methods are more difficult and take more effort, like product creation, but when you stick at it and get it working, it will be more rewarding and long term. Do you honestly feel good by calling up people and coaxing them into buying crap?

How many good marketers or business owners do you know who call people
up and coax them into buying crap... or anything? You're in the business of
marketing... at least I assume that to be true by your presence on the best
marketing forum on the planet... do you call people up and coax them into
buying your crap? Neither do I.

Smart marketers are looking for people who are looking for what they offer... right?

Why would I call anyone else?

Well, ok, maybe I'm showing my ignorance, and didn't spend enough time in it, but that is because I just didn't feel comfortable doing it. I mean, the guy who introdiced me to it, make plenty money because I spent 300 fkin bucks on stuff I'd never heard of, the sales videos were really slick, and I got taken for a ride.

Sadly... your story happens too frequently. Hence the poor opinion some
have of the business model. Yes, there are charlatans in MLM. But, they're
everywhere... even on this forum.

People considering businesses should stop thinking with their wallets and start
using their heads.

So, please tell me how it is supposed to happen and how it benefits people? And that is not supposed to sound sarcastic, I honestly want to see if I missed the point?

How it's supposed to happen is no different than any other business with the
exception that when it's done correctly there is a great support team in place to
assist the new associate.

Tsnyder

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

In fact, the product I represent via an MLM is about 1/3rd to 1/5th the cost
of lower quality products readily available in the market.

Looks like you are trying to sell good products to your customers...some MLM'ers only look for how much they can make, and for them, screw the customers and their downline.

They simply summarize that is the way business is and always will be....not true, it does not have to be that way.

Whether fruitful or not, some people consider this "self-righteous" or " moralizing"...., hey, whats wrong with attempting to have a conscious?

Doing so its pointless and is non-pragmatic, so they conclude, so why waste time on a moot point?

" Do unto others...", and all that useless jazz. This is business.

Looks like you are the few that attempt to have a conscious.

The 13 th Warrior

[debra]

The only problem I have with MLM is that they force you to be the consumer too in order to recieve a commission for sales.

And...at the current setup...the math doesn't work. There are only so many specific product users out there. And if they are also forcing you into a consumer/distributor position, the majority of the downlines will be never even come to a break even point.

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by debra

The only problem I have with MLM is that they force you to be the consumer too in order to recieve a commission for sales.

And...at the current setup...the math doesn't work. There are only so many specific product users out there. And if they are also forcing you into a consumer/distributor position, the majority of the downlines will be never even come to a break even point.

There may be some truth to what you said.

It should not be about "force".

It should be, " I already use this brand toilet paper anyhow, why not have the option to do more?"

The 13 th Warrior

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by debra

The only problem I have with MLM is that they force you to be the consumer too in order to recieve a commission for sales.

And...at the current setup...the math doesn't work. There are only so many specific product users out there. And if they are also forcing you into a consumer/distributor position, the majority of the downlines will be never even come to a break even point.

You've been looking at the wrong MLMs

Tsnyder

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

"Carbon Copy Pro" is a funded proposal system for a company called Wealth Masters International, which isn't MLM.

If you are saying that because it is an " interactive educational " product, maybe.

Look what people pay for college.

But I would be more comfortable promoting something " CONSUMABLE ", stuff people would use normally anyway.

This is kinda greyarea product, to me, although its guarantee of what it can minimally benefit is the same as a 4 year college education.

Like that woman who sued some college because she paid $70,000, graduated with a degree or something , and could not find work for the longest time, trying to pay her college debt, or some story like that.

The 13 th Warrior

[Sosu]

I don't want to sell my Mom over priced fruit juice, mail my pee, or have secret parties where I jump out and yell surprise its MLM...

But the concept is good and I'm thinking about running something like MLM on a project I'm working on.

[FaJeeb]

I believe that MLM would work in theory, but the reality is, the type of people MLM'ing appeals to are, well, lazy people who concentrate on the theory of it, not the reality.

I did PPL for a while, I still receive checks from them once every 6 months, getting less and less. When it came time to request one of my PPL attorneys to send out a legal letter, they didn't go through. Then I stopped. It was all about getting people signed up under you, not selling the actual product.

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by FaJeeb

I believe that MLM would work in theory, but the reality is, the type of people MLM'ing appeals to are, well, lazy people who concentrate on the theory of it, not the reality.

I did PPL for a while, I still receive checks from them once every 6 months, getting less and less. When it came time to request one of my PPL attorneys to send out a legal letter, they didn't go through. Then I stopped. It was all about getting people signed up under you, not selling the actual product.

More nonsense...

I'm not a lazy person and I won't sponsor a lazy person. If they fool me
and turn out out be lazy they either get over that quickly or figure out what
to do on their own. I won't waste time with them if they don't want to
work.

To me it's like a chess game... I move, you move, I move, you move. If I
move three times and you don't move... game over. I will spend whatever time
an associate needs to support them but I'm not in the business of dragging
people across the finish line.

As for PPL, I've had a membership for many years... I don't sell it... and
I couldn't be happier with the service.

Tsnyder

[getsmartt]

naah MLM could never work....

ever hear of

Amway
Avon
Tupperwear
MaryKay


could go on for quite a while about companies that are successful in Multi-Level Marketing. The people that are successful are the ones that treat it like a business, they sell to their customers, show the the value in the product, convert them to their down-line, and work with them to make them successful

[Fun to Write]

MLM is not a business but a "business opportunity".
Most people get sucked in by the chance to make money on promoting products they are always told everybody wants.

Yeah, and then the truth is revealed that nobody wants them except those interested in the "income opportunity". The one exception I'll make is Watkins who sell all kinds of food and household stuff that's good quality. It's possible to make money just from customers who only want their products. Only a tiny percentage of MLM companies have these types of products.

Even then, most people find out that they don't like selling or bugging others to buy their MLM wares. The MLM top dogs always hype it up, get you sucked in, then you realized that in order to make the big money, you've got to build a huge downline and move tons of product.

Most people just can't do this - and NO this doesn't mean they are losers.

It means this type of opportunity is not really for them i.e. direct SELLING.

I believe anyone truly successful with these MLM companies are good at making direct sales, and motivating people. Not skills the average person has, or wants to have.

Plus, I agree that the bottom of the downline often collapses. Trust me, many people who are at the top of pyramid will move their downline to the next big thing as soon as they sense their "wonderful opportunity" is going to go bottom up.

I too will never get involved with MLM again, and recommend others stay far away.

[Scooter2084]

I find it rather interesting that a lot of MLMer's use the phrase that "98% of network marketers fail". They usually go one to lead into how they will help you be in the 2% that do not but...

Is this really due to them or is because the overall system is designed that way...

[FaJeeb]

Originally Posted by getsmartt

naah MLM could never work....

ever hear of

Amway
Avon
Tupperwear
MaryKay


could go on for quite a while about companies that are successful in Multi-Level Marketing. The people that are successful are the ones that treat it like a business, they sell to their customers, show the the value in the product, convert them to their down-line, and work with them to make them successful

That's true, I take back my broad generalized statement.

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by Scooter2084

I find it rather interesting that a lot of MLMer's use the phrase that "98% of network marketers fail". They usually go one to lead into how they will help you be in the 2% that do not but...

Is this really due to them or is because the overall system is designed that way...

People fail at all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. I have never
failed any network marketing because I know and understand that real
businesses run on real products being sold to real customers... and I teach
that truth to my associates.

MLM is obviously not designed to fail... there are several companies doing
billions of dollars in annual sales and many more doing hundreds of millions.

I would also challenge the notion that most peple fail... how can you fail
at something you never really started? I liken it to all the IMers who have
several gigs of stuff gumming up their hard drives that they've never bothered
to read. Stuff that would make them money if they'd read it and implement
the methods and strategies. Do they fail... or do they just never get started?

Tsnyder

[Fun to Write]

Originally Posted by getsmartt

naah MLM could never work....

ever hear of

Amway
Avon
Tupperwear
MaryKay


could go on for quite a while about companies that are successful in Multi-Level Marketing. The people that are successful are the ones that treat it like a business, they sell to their customers, show the the value in the product, convert them to their down-line, and work with them to make them successful

I'd stay away from Amway - lots of motivational hype and high pressure to sign people up. I've seen this up close.

As for those other companies. They have well respected products that rely on independent sales reps. These sales reps aren't pressured to bring others in. Much more friendlier, and I don't consider them traditional MLM companies at all.

Most MLM is built on hype and more hype - and they are masters of using motivational techniques to keep people mesmerized by the opportunity. And, of course, when someone fails to sell their over-hyped opportunity (I mean products) to others then that means they are total failures (according to MLMers).

Pffuft!

MLM sucks.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by The 13 th Warrior

If you are saying that because it is an " interactive educational " product, maybe.

There's no "maybe" about it, 13. It's a simple, factual statement.

WMI is not registered as an MLM company. It isn't licensed as an MLM company. It isn't regulated as an MLM company. Its marketing materials all state openly and clearly "We are not an MLM company". Its compliance department will tell you that it isn't an MLM company. Any regulator will tell you that it isn't an MLM company.

It has nothing to do with what the products are.

Polaris Media Group also has very high-ticket "interactive educational" products and that is an MLM company.

If you'll excuse the observation, you've started a thread here specifically and expressly to denigrate the core concept of MLM but you seem not actually to know what an MLM company is.

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by Fun to Write

I'd stay away from Amway - lots of motivational hype and high pressure to sign people up. I've seen this up close.

As for those other companies. They have well respected products that rely on independent sales reps. These sales reps aren't pressured to bring others in. Much more friendlier, and I don't consider them traditional MLM companies at all.

Most MLM is built on hype and more hype - and they are masters of using motivational techniques to keep people mesmerized by the opportunity. And, of course, when someone fails to sell their over-hyped opportunity (I mean products) to others then that means they are total failures (according to MLMers).

Pffuft!

MLM sucks.

What really sucks is people who spout nonsense on forums as if they
actually know what they're talking about... know what I mean?

Those other companies are most definitely MLMs. They most definitely
recruit people to sell their products and they earn overrides and bonuses
on those sales.

As for Amway... a lot has been said, good and bad, about them. They're the
biggest player in the game (BILLIONS in annual sales) and they actually had the
guts to take on the FTC and won!

Oh... and they have the largest selling brand of nutritional products ON THE PLANET.

I think they might be doing a few things right but they make an easy target.

Tsnyder

[actionplanbiz]

Its not the MLM that Makes it work, although it does influence it, its people that makes it work.

Just like any other affiliate program That many are successful with. but some seem to struggle with it.

Nothing works for Everybody, but Everything works for somebody

[Success With Dany]

This is how you make mlm work:

1- You suspend your (expensive) auto-ship. Better, you don't join a mlm YET.

2- The money you saved from suspending auto-ship or from not buying a starting kit goes into investing a mlm system like Magnetic Sponsoring, Ann Sieg's, Budd's, there are a lot of them in the market. You research and you pick.

3- You apply and take action on all the Internet marketing lessons taught in such systems. Articles video, forum, pay-per-click, EVERYTHING because hey, the system costs a monthly fee and you want to maximize your money.

4- Your market to OTHER NETWORKERS ONLY, from every company under the sun including yours.

5- Struggling networkers, seeing that you offer a solution to their mlm woes, sign into the system.

6- You make money from referrals + extra commissions from mlm-related tools sold from the system.

7- Eventually, you make enough money to restart your costly auto-ship or you finally buy the kit from your favorite mlm.

8- A very small percentage will ask what company you are working and then now will be the perfect time to pitch them your mlm. Some will join!

9- Effortless recruiting!

10- You continue to help people and you watch your mlm, a totally extra revenue stream, grow by itself.

Notice you could make money even with no mlm. But there is not a soul on earth that will say no to potential extra residual money.

If there is, their pants are on fire.

And THAT is how you make money in mlm in the 21st century.

[n8]

When you look into joining a MLM company make sure it's the right vehicle for you! A lot of people fail because the person that sponsored them in doesn't give them all tools they need to succeed. A lot of people get frustrated after 2 weeks when their friends and family stop returning their calls because they just joined a company that will make them a million dollars in 6 months, even though they know you do not have any previous knowledge in the industry. MLM shouldn't be a get rich quick scheme you need to go back to school per say and learn the process. A lot of people spend 80,000 on a degree and after 4 yrs of school are happy to make 50,000 a year. Don't expect to go to 4 meetings and listen to 6 calls and wonder why you aren't getting $10,000 checks in the mail Another thing we see time after time is teachers always make the best progress, those in a sales background seem to struggle until they learn the word sponsor and get the word recruit out of their vocab. If you can sponsor 3 people and show those 3 people how to sponsor 3 people so on and so forth, you are building a foundation to your home based business if you go out to recruit and recruit and wonder why your downline is quitting and getting frustrated it time to look in the mirror! Good luck with what ever you choose!

[Mike Murphy]

Oh the MLM debate.....

I'm VERY close to the MLM scene. Not in it personally but let's say many people very close to me are in a certain MLM. I hated it at first and still admit that it (like anything else) has it's strong and weak points.

By examining the top earners in a specific MLM based company, I was able to make a few observations.

1) The ones that treat it like a real business have a better chance of succeeding.

2) Damn near EVERY business is an MLM of sorts (and companies that Franchises is an MLM with fewer levels)

3) The key to long term success in MLM is to look at what the company itself is trying to achieve and then find a way to provide it to them that also fulfills your needs.

Many simply profit off the reps ordering stock....the reps get awards/prestige/title for moving large volumes of stock so they go crazy and order a ton of stock (that they never sell).

They've taken the ML out of MLM. Cast your net wide, recruit like crazy and weed out the turkeys. Speak to the many to find the few as they say.

30 reps running like a business beats 100 running like a hobby any day.

[DogScout]

1st, if your 'upline' is suggesting you sell to your family, they are not thinking long term and you have the wrong upline. In the car biz, it was "if you cannot XXXX your family, who can you?"

Wrong mind set. MLM can be a great way to be mentored with the right sponsor and the sales techniques for those that have never realized they sold, no matter what they did, can be used in any business and vice versa.

It is one of what you want to be multiple streams of income. Just because I cannot write and every time I do some article directory deletes my articles and my ex was a writer and took me for everything...doesn't mean article writing is not a good choice for a one business model.

If you take it with the mindset that whatever you get out of it, you you deliver 2-10 times the value to it, you will be unstoppable. If new people freshly out of work need income to feed their families and are unable to reproduce Ewen Chia's 80k in a week, if they are part of your down line, you can help show them whole new way(s) to earn a living.

Sure, there are those that take advantage, (there are those that do that in every IM category!...I Know, been on the wrong side many times. I never learn!) And there are those set up so the higher brass get all the perks and no matter how hard you work, it is just rah, rah meeting after discouragement after rah, rah meeting. Don't paint all of one type with a single brush, if business models were human, that would make you a bigot. If it isn't for you, if you do not see the value, if you have decided it cannot work for you, no amount of help will change that mindset and you will become a self for-filling prophecy. In that case, do NOT join a MLM. It will be a waste for you and everyone you touch.

If you can see how a good MLM set up can be used to teach and help get a person get by, while they learn how to make it a ONE viable long term stream of income, then it is for you. Without alienating your family and friends. To each their own, if it isn't yours do not knock others because it works for them. No greater percent of failures are in MLMs than any other business model. It is possible to fail in any of them given the proper amount of negative thinking.

To YOUR success, wherever it comes from,
Mark

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

WMI is not registered as an MLM company. It isn't licensed as an MLM company. It isn't regulated as an MLM company. Its marketing materials all state openly and clearly "We are not an MLM company". Its compliance department will tell you that it isn't an MLM company. Any regulator will tell you that it isn't an MLM company.

It has nothing to do with what the products are.

I really don't care what its registered as, licensed as, what the compliance department says, or what the regulator says..,if the methods and results are parallel to MLM, legally defined as such or not, what does it matter?

Slight differences, similar results.

In MLM, the main sell and profit is getting others to sell others, to sell others, etc., mostly 97% of it is selling the sell. The strength of the product, on its own, is not much profit when sold and/or a product one would not normally choose or even be in the top ten of products chosen for the sellers personal use.

This non-MLM , as you say, main money is made by selling the various levels of packages to people. Someone else assigned to the leads you generate is supposed to do the hard selling , but to get credit for their conversions, you have to BUY the product 1st, first level being around $1500-2000.

No mention or proof that the product , in and of itself, is enough for one to generate income. It is simply alleged that the product can do this for you.

Oh, and if the marketers that are assigned to hard sell the leads your cloned website gets, if that lead buys the level 3-$20,000 or more, if you did not buy that product, you don't get the credit or commission of that sale.

Also, no explanations, examples, proof of income and description of the educational tools they allude can make anyone successful in marketing.

No examples of how the "educational products", by itself, can generate the buyer income by the information contained there in.

Just because they don't fit the technical definition and legal status of a MLM, the shoe fits just the same.

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

If you'll excuse the observation, you've started a thread here specifically and expressly to denigrate the core concept of MLM but you seem not actually to know what an MLM company is.

If you re-read it, I was exploring why the principle theory of MLM, which if you read, sounds great in concept, is not being implemented to its best and most honest course.

If you carefully read , I wanted to get some feedback on the most honest MLM that is being practiced in principle or if it CAN be practiced in principal in the real world, mathematics and all.

I am speaking of principles and parallels, not technically defined exact semantics. I'll leave that for the debate freaks.

Scientist say, after DNA test were done, that a chihuahua has DNA more close to a Rat than a Canine.

In fact, they say the chihuahua has NO CANINE DNA whatsoever.

So technically and semantically, to be specific, accurate and exact, perhaps we should put it in the Rodent family..., the first RAT that barks like a dog and raises its leg by a fire hydrant when nature is a callin, .......jesus christ....,

The 13 th Warrior

[ArticlePrince]

While I've only been in a couple of MLMs, they can work. The key (in my personal opinion) is that they don't depend on making every single customer a distributor, there's an end. For example, my wife is in an MLM call Scentsy (I think thats spelled right) and she make good money at it. I'm in two (won't post links) that I make money off of. As for earning money from a business 18 years after you stop working on it; we need to hang out more. (Ha I was only 4 in 1991 though :-/)

[mr2monster]

Originally Posted by phil.wheatley

I did MLM for a while, sorry in advance for sweeping statement, but it sucks. You make money by peddling crap to other people in your downline, and then they peddle more crap to their downline. It made me laugh when the top mlm dude said "this is not a pyramid scheme" - that's like when the pilot of a plane gets on the tannoy and says "Ladies and Gentlemen, there's nothing to worry about".

Sounds like affiliate marketing as most affiliates choose to do business... Doesn't mean that ALL affiliates are guilty of just "peddling crap".

Sounds like info-product creation as a whole lot of product creators choose to do business... Doesn't mean all info-products are "crap"


There's a dark side to every business whether it be retail, wholesale, multi-level, affiliate, on the internet, off the internet, person to person, business to business, business to person or person to business.

The end result is always dictated by how you choose to run your business, no matter what type of business you're doing.

[JazzOscar]

Originally Posted by phil.wheatley

I did MLM for a while, sorry in advance for sweeping statement, but it sucks. You make money by peddling crap to other people in your downline, and then they peddle more crap to their downline.-----

I have to take Tsnyder's side in this discussion.

Phil, you say that you did MLM for a while, and, from the rest of what you say, you also seem to admit that you were peddling crap.

I have two questions for you;

• Where were your good business judgement when you decided to peddle crap?
• Where were your business ethics when you decided to peddle crap?

How can you expect to be successfull selling a product you don't believe in to customers very soon finding they don't believe in it either, expecting them to keep the deceitful operation rolling?

Sure there are lots of crappy MLM opportunities around. Sure there are some top MLM marketers earning money on those opportunities. The reasons for them earning money, apart from being good at selling, are, as far as I can see;

• They usually enter the MLM at the top level, or very early on.
• They have a somewhat lacking judgement when it comes to business ethics.

So, there surely are people in MLM earning money by peddling crap, but why should we try to fall down to their level? Be very causious in the nearness of people like that, however monetarily successfull they might be.

I once bought into an opportunity that gave the impression of having a product of value. When I found this not to be the case, I took my loss, the unrefundable setup fee, and left. I couldn't stay in something where the only way I could earn money was what I looked upon as deceiving people.

In contrast to the above mentioned crap filled opportunities, you have MLM opportunities with products that are quality products in their own right. For the companies offering these products, the MLM model is the vehicle for selling them, thereby adding an opportunity side to what they have to offer their customers.

I'm a GVO (earlier Kiosk) customer/member, and have been so for 2 years now. I became a customer because I needed hosting and liked what they had to offer. The MLM side of their business was not very important for my decision to go with them.

I'm still not sure whether I'm going to be a very active promoter of their new offering as GVO. What I know, however, is that I would not be ashamed at all to sell their product, MLM or not. Their's is the kind of MLM opportuny serious business people look for.

If you want to go for MLM oportunities my points are;

• Look upon it as serious business.
• Have your ethical judgements in place.
• Treat your customers in a way that would not make you uncomfortable meeting them face to face.

[Brad Gosse]

I have some MLM experience as well.

MLM Looks good on paper. I bought into Xocai healthy chocolate last year. I love the product so it was a no brainer for me.

I know there are top earners in these companies that live a great lifestyle.

The business itself is difficult to pull off online. I cracked the code to generating mass lead volume but I am too lazy to call them all on the phone so I put them into an email system. Let's just say the buyers I did get turned out to mostly be adult babies that wanted to tell me their sob stories.

I gave it a good run and spent a fortune along the way. I don't actively sell it now but I do sell the leads to others now and I still enjoy the chocolate (my doctor told me to eat about the exact volume they autoship for blood pressure).

What I learned helps me work with my MLM clients better. I speak their language and know their needs better than a marketer with no MLM experience.

My time is better focused helping people with their marketing, teaching and creating products than it is flogging a business opportunity in MLM.

[Scott Ames]

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

I have some MLM experience as well.

MLM Looks good on paper. I bought into Xocai healthy chocolate last year. I love the product so it was a no brainer for me.

That is good stuff. I've tried it at a booth once and even bought a bottle.

[Scott Ames]

MLM works.. but not for everyone.

I've seen people go from zero to $7,000 a month within a few months, but they are certain types of people. They are the "go getters" and rejection doesn't phase them. You have to have a thick skin.

One of my friends makes over $200K a year in one MLM , but she is as aggressive as can be. She doesn't even know the word "no" or refuses to hear it. I've gotten in arguements with her over simple things because she refused to hear my "no".

What really works is owning the MLM. You can make some serious money, however... it's not easy at all. Believe it or not starting an MLM is not a piece of cake like some think it is. It takes lots of money and effort and many fail because they don't get it right.

[DogScout]

I 'bought in' to an MLM. Was a travel MLM (not the high priced one you see around). I saved double the price I paid to join on the 1st airfare I needed to buy over what I would have had to pay Southwest for a three legged journey. (cross country, then back to Orlando for Bill Glazer seminar then back to DC).

If I sell that product, I know what they pay will be re-couped even if they do not sell anything. That (to me) is an ethical MLM. And they get those kinds of discounts for life with the one payment!, no monthly fees.

How exactly is that unethical? If a person flies 3,000 miles in a lifetime, they break even. After that any flights, hotels, cruises, etc are gravy. The product delivers 2-20+ times the cost in value, EVEN if they never sell a position under them. If they are sales oriented and do sell positions, they have a chance to make even more money, but it is not necessary to make the purchase a good one.

(For those who wonder how they make money doing that, local chamber of commerce chip in, airlines and hotels etc give bulk deals that are split up so you get to still go wherever you want with the discounts most times. Etc.)

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

One of my friends makes over $200K a year in one MLM , but she is as aggressive as can be. She doesn't even know the word "no" or refuses to hear it. I've gotten in arguements with her over simple things because she refused to hear my "no".

One of my good friends, who is 25, makes over $350K a year from her MLM business and she isn't aggressive at all, quite the opposite in fact. She's totally single-minded, however, that she'll only ever show her business opportunity to people who are already looking for one and ask her, and will never try to persuade anyone. (She says it's easy to sponsor/recruit by persuasion, but those people all drop out later because they weren't actually looking for it in the first place). And she won't sponsor "online leads" at all, ever. Nor will she ever sponsor anyone who's already in MLM. Statistically, most of these people are "jumpers" from company to company and you can't build a reliable, duplicating business from them. You need newbies.

If you can sponsor someone easily, then so can others after you, and you'll never retain them.

The secret is high-retention/low-attrition.

This is how ultra-successful MLM-ers build their 7-figure businesses. By working offline, and dealing only with people who are looking for a home-based business.

She doesn't do anything difficult or complicated, and isn't a "salesperson" at all. She just does simple, duplicable things very well and very consistently, and is very selective about whom she'll sponsor (I speak as one of her "rejects"!!)

[hotftuna]

MLM can work- but in order to make a profit, you need to perform well above the average participant in the group. Here's why-

Let's exclude sales to folks outside the group of reps for this example. Let's say that there are 1000 reps. They buy 2 mil in products per year and their upline get 1 mil in commissions per year. That means that the average rep spends $2000 per year and earns $1000 in commissions.

Those at the upper levels can make tons.

[Scott Ames]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

One of my good friends, who is 25, makes over $350K a year from her MLM business and she isn't aggressive at all, quite the opposite in fact. She's totally single-minded, however, that she'll only ever show her business opportunity to people who are already looking for one and ask her, and will never try to persuade anyone.

I like her already.