Still Struggling To Make Money Online...Here's Why (CAUTION: This May Offend)

[Josef_Benjamin]

Have you noticed lately many people who don't know what they are talking about giving advice on forums they have no business giving out?

We all have been guilty of this, including me, but it's getting out of hand.

Not only are people here giving advice on how to do something they don't know anything about, but the worst is when they ACT like their advice is good advice and do more harm than intended.

Getting in the trenches, experience, taking action...whatever you wanna call it, speaks louder than words. And if you can't PROVE you know what your doing and what your saying gives specific results, you'll be doing alot of people a big favor by NOT throwing in your "2 cents" or sharing your opinon.

Seriously, just shut up.

I've learned not to talk about subjects nor respond to topics or subjects I myself have no experinece or success at previously or currently.

No one wants to hear my opionion about PPC if I don't know what I'm talking about. I'll be misleading people.

I do LESS talking and MORE listening to the masters in their field and I succeed.

There are alot of gullible people on this forum (no offense), and it takes a strong character to NOT take the bad advice thrown on here seriously.

So when someone says that you don't need to "pay" for information because everything you need is "right here on this forum"...consider the junk threads and comments newbies have to go through to get it...when for a price they can get quality information from someone who DOES know what they're doing and can back it up.

I said this thread might be offensive to some, so here goes...

If you had a so called "bad experinece" with a product, try your best to keep it to yourself unless you have hard evidence the product or service is ineffective.

People try things "once or twice", and come on forums to complain about how it doesn't work...when it COULD work for the person who actually put's in the effort and dedication to get it to work for them.

One more thing...

Don't talk about what you THINK will work with PPC if you've never done it.

...what you THINK will work in article marketing if you've never done it.

...or what you THINK will work with CPA or lead generation if you've never done it.

YOU are distorting the good information that DOES work and you make it harder for others to make a decision on what to focus on by sharing your opionion.

It's great to have ideas, but keep them to youself until YOU worked it out first and it works for you. Now your ideas are no longer "ideas"...it's money in the bank and others can truly benefit from the information (if you choose to give it away or sell it)

Besides, people can shoot down your ideas if you expose them (yet another reason to keep them to yousef)

No one...and I mean NO ONE...wants your opionion on ANYTHING you yourself have no experinece DOING.

That would be like taking the advice of someone who runs their mouth about real estate investing when I know they're "bluffing" and:

A. havn't made a dime

or

B. Lost money (so their advice is naturally STAY OUT)

As a newbie, you WANT to listen to the advice from someone who DID get CPA marketing to work, who IS getting lead generation to work, or DOES get PPC to work...

Not someone who failed at it. Because for every 7 or so people who says it DON'T work, theirs a master out there who got it to work.

So FOLLOW THEM.

Because if you follow the advice of those failures, what do you think you'll be? Another one of the failures.

Masters rarely post or respond on forums.

Forums are full of "wannabes" and "shoulda couldas", I know cause I was a part of the same crowd. But It wasn't until I took the advice of successful entrepreneurs did I become one myself (and stayed of forums long enough to find the best at what I'm looking to do).

So take my advice or don't (ironic).

But if anything, focus on you and don't put much weight on anybody's opinion around here except for those who HAVE shown their worth and proved their credibility.

[scrofford]

I agree with part of what you are saying. There is a lot of garbage slung around here. You just have to be careful who you listen to.

[GeorgR.]

>>
when for a price they can get quality information from someone who DOES know what they're doing and can back it up.
>>

this might be the case, but the ratio of "good" courses and information to rehashed ***p and non working systems might be like 1:10.

Also...see it like that (For the exmple with "failed at PPC")

I know firsthand that there is a whole bunch of "systems" out there where the author CLAIMS "miraculous" things eg. with PPC/Adwords and Clickbank (as an example.) I know systems where the writer claims that Clickbank and direct linking is the the best thing since sliced bread. I read "wonder systems" which read like all you need is an adwords account, your favorite Clickbank product - and two days later the cash is rolling in.

Now..in that particular area (clickbank and PPC) you could say i "failed" since i never made big profits with PPC with it in some years...despites massive time spent on keyword and niche research. I can also lay out a "math" showing you EXACTLY *why* it can never work as some people claim. (Short: $0.50 bid on Adwords for $30 payout - WILL NEVER, NEVER WORK with 98% of all clickbank products)

From that point of view i feel free to give my own advice (based on experience) and tell a newbie WHY it wont work. I list statistics, average clickbank CTR and payouts, bids. I show them WHY it is very, very unlikely to work in this particular case. Nothing wrong with it, IMHO.

Also..it is way "cheaper" to go through junk threads and pick out the good stuff - instead of spending a few thousands on some flakey, non working system. I still say that literally 99% of the information you need is indeed on forums like warrior's, BHW, DP...rest is learning stuff for yourself and doing/applying/testing. Some things might work, some wont.

[clint48]

Just because something works for one person that does it doesn't mean it will work for another person. Most of the advice you find here works, but it may not work for everyone. Article marketing works for some people, but has never worked that great for me, because I hate to write, but I am trying to work around that in my own way.

Clint

[GeorgR.]

Originally Posted by clint48

Just because something works for one person that does it doesn't mean it will work for another person. Most of the advice you find here works, but it may not work for everyone. Article marketing works for some people, but has never worked that great for me, because I hate to write, but I am trying to work around that in my own way.

Clint

it's called outsourcing

[MadameBusiness]

I completely agree with everyone. It is so easy to get a bum steer in forums, but I find when you read advice that works, follow that person's posts and you will get better information from them. For months I was going down wrong path after wrong path and finally I got coaching. Let's face it. There is no quick way to earn money online - you need to have the skills and I am thankful I learned them from industry seniors. You have to learn from their experience. Its the only way!

[JMPruitt]

I agree to a point. IF you don't have any experience you should leave it alone, or learn what you can. However, I find that often the best person to learn from is someone who is only a little ahead of me on the learning curve, so just because you have not mastered something does not mean you should not share your experience in that area.

[GeorgR.]

Originally Posted by MadameBusiness

There is no quick way to earn money online - you need to have the skills and I am thankful I learned them from industry seniors.

OMG, hell no there is no "quick" way. And its even harder seeing that the average IM entrepreneur might work alone - he needs to acquire those skills through years of learning, trial/error. Very different to when you work some conventional job and basically got told what to do

[MarketingSPY]

Wow - what a post! I wish more people would have the nerve to say it like it is. There are so many "wannabees" and marketers out there that are frustrated, disappointed and broke. If it wasn't for bad luck - most wouldn't have any luck at all. It's a jungle out there - to many predators trying to make a buck with worthless junk. I learned my lesson too!

[Josef_Benjamin]

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

>>
when for a price they can get quality information from someone who DOES know what they're doing and can back it up.
>>

this might be the case, but the ratio of "good" courses and information to rehashed ***p and non working systems might be like 1:10.

Also...see it like that (For the exmple with "failed at PPC")

I know firsthand that there is a whole bunch of "systems" out there where the author CLAIMS "miraculous" things eg. with PPC/Adwords and Clickbank (as an example.) I know systems where the writer claims that Clickbank and direct linking is the the best thing since sliced bread. I read "wonder systems" which read like all you need is an adwords account, your favorite Clickbank product - and two days later the cash is rolling in.

Now..in that particular area (clickbank and PPC) you could say i "failed" since i never made big profits with PPC with it in some years...despites massive time spent on keyword and niche research. I can also lay out a "math" showing you EXACTLY *why* it can never work as some people claim. (Short: $0.50 bid on Adwords for $30 payout - WILL NEVER, NEVER WORK with 98% of all clickbank products)

From that point of view i feel free to give my own advice (based on experience) and tell a newbie WHY it wont work. I list statistics, average clickbank CTR and payouts, bids. I show them WHY it is very, very unlikely to work in this particular case. Nothing wrong with it, IMHO.

Also..it is way "cheaper" to go through junk threads and pick out the good stuff - instead of spending a few thousands on some flakey, non working system. I still say that literally 99% of the information you need is indeed on forums like warrior's, BHW, DP...rest is learning stuff for yourself and doing/applying/testing. Some things might work, some wont.

Good point.

I would agree and disagree on some points, but I wouldn't want to try to change your view in any way, for I could just as well be wrong myself.

Yes, there ARE some systems that used to work that work no more (like the CB to PPC method). This is why I personally don't care for online marketing because of these quick changes and prefer slower investments (but that's a topic for another day)

As for "freely giving your advice" on why something why won't...for everyone person who says' something won't work, there's someone out there who has PROOF that it does. It all comes down to if your looking for what doesn't work to validate why you won't take action, or if your looking for a winning strategy that does work to help you move forward. That's a choice.

It's a catch 22. If I wanted to believe Real Estate doesn't "work" in a down economy, I'd avoid it like most. But I seek those who know how to work it despite any economy and often times come out more profitable than ever before. It comes down to "what do I want to believe is true to make my action or inaction justifiable".

On the free information...

I'm the type who perfers to spend money on education to get results faster, but I am very careful from what experts (or so-called) I take advice from. I don't buy every WSO that talks about this or that. I focus on getting the products that will get me to my goals fastest...

sifting and sorting through forums for gold is harder work compared to simply buying the information instantly applyable.

I like your point of view though.

Originally Posted by clint48

Just because something works for one person that does it doesn't mean it will work for another person. Most of the advice you find here works, but it may not work for everyone. Article marketing works for some people, but has never worked that great for me, because I hate to write, but I am trying to work around that in my own way.

Clint

You see, this took guts. Just saying your looking to "improve" shows character.

Most people would rather say something along the lines of :

"ARTICLE MARKETING SUCKS AND HERE'S WHY..."

When all alone it was THEIR fustration with not knowing how to write all that well that caused their problems. They didn't put much into it in the first place, but few would ever admit it.

Their fustration can cause many confusion, and ultimately failure for inaction.

Originally Posted by MadameBusiness

I completely agree with everyone. It is so easy to get a bum steer in forums, but I find when you read advice that works, follow that person's posts and you will get better information from them. For months I was going down wrong path after wrong path and finally I got coaching. Let's face it. There is no quick way to earn money online - you need to have the skills and I am thankful I learned them from industry seniors. You have to learn from their experience. Its the only way!

I wouldn't say learning from others is the ONLY way. I just found it to be the BEST and FASTEST way.

There are pioneers in this industry that had no study course or guidance to get to where they are, and yet they are here.

I, like most, aren't intrested in innovating, we want to take a system that works and follow it or make our own (the latter being the best way).

Thank you for your comment.

Originally Posted by JMPruitt

I agree to a point. IF you don't have any experience you should leave it alone, or learn what you can. However, I find that often the best person to learn from is someone who is only a little ahead of me on the learning curve, so just because you have not mastered something does not mean you should not share your experience in that area.

Intresting.

Personally, I like taking the MOST advice and using it from those who are substantially ahead.

Can I learn from those only a little bit ahead? Sure. And I have.

But not by much

I'm not looking to trail the bike rider in front of me and use him as a little boost to the finish line. I wanna know how the person at the front of the pack won the Tour De France and what I need to do to trial him.

And If I can't reach him, I'll go to the second, third best finishers before I go with the guy just in front of me.

But that's just me

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

OMG, hell no there is no "quick" way. And its even harder seeing that the average IM entrepreneur might work alone - he needs to acquire those skills through years of learning, trial/error. Very different to when you work some conventional job and basically got told what to do

agreed. It' is different than a job. Different in that you'll likely end up doing a lot of work that you may not get paid for doing upfront, but can reap for later for years.

Truthfully, I lot of the learning and trial/error can be reduced to a minimum of just days, weeks, or at worst...a couple of months with the right mentor.

I learned faster how to drive a car with a driving instructor by my side.

I'm learning how to put together real estate deals in any economy with a mentor/coach by myside.

Sure, you can learn how to do alot of things yourself, but at what cost?

Your time.

that's why I encourage finding some of the best and following their advice (provided their reputation is on point)

Originally Posted by MarketingSPY

Wow - what a post! I wish more people would have the nerve to say it like it is. There are so many "wannabees" and marketers out there that are frustrated, disappointed and broke. If it wasn't for bad luck - most wouldn't have any luck at all. It's a jungle out there - to many predators trying to make a buck with worthless junk. I learned my lesson too!

lol, you too?

Thanks for the kind comment.

I really don't have a problem speaking my mind even if it did get me banned. But what I have to say isn't set in stone. It's just what's been working for me so that's me following my own advice

Other than this thread, I don't bother reading any more except for a good belly laugh or two...and then it's back to work.

[redicelander]

Wow, that was a rant if I ever saw one, but you have a point.

Unfortunately, not every with bad advice is going to read your rant and even if they did, they may just ignore it. Also, a lot of people with bad advice probably do not even know they have bad advice. One example is the myth still being perpetuated about duplicate content with regards to SEO. If I followed that advice, I would just be hampering myself.

You are right, there is a lot of bad advice on this forum from people who really do not know what they are talking about. But nobody is going to really shut up, so it is up to the individual to have a strong mind and do extensive research to figure out the best way.

Also, paid courses can be great or they can be horrible. I paid over $1000 for a course where I lost money in the long run, and that has been nagging me to this day.

[sandmn]

for those who HAVE shown their worth and proved their credibility.

How do you know them ???? all what I can get here is a text + nice pic...

[Mike Hersh]

Looks like someone got angry

I really think this thread is going to help a lot of newbies who are trying to get a name in the IM world without knowing what they cause to other people.

Great, thanks!

Mike G

[Josef_Benjamin]

lol, a rant?

dunno...call it "passion" to help others break out the mold.

But ya, your right, few people actually "listen" with as much "passion" as they do talking.

Quick Example:

I have a great relationship with my real estate mentor/coach/partner because I listen way more than I talk.

I don't need to be giving my "2 cents" about why something will or will not work especially if I've never done it before.

He works with me because I can sit down, take notes, and listen more...and take action more.

If I spent my time trying to tell him why something will or will not work based on the information I read in books, it wouldn't work.

Have questions. Raise objections. But don't get in your own way of your success.

Do I know some things about real estate?

sure.

But if HE'S the one making the money, I have no reason other than my ego to tell him what he should or should not be doing.

[Brad Spencer]

To the OP,

Great for saying this...btw, I also think that if anyone's offended by your comments then they are seriously going to fail in this business.

No doubt about it...who would argue your MAIN point (we can split hairs sure but the basic message is universal).

Not for nothing, but most of the things I buy are off the same people over and over b/c I SEE them doing what they teach in all their messages. One reason I sign up for so many lists is b/c I want to see what people do (and follow that...not what they say)

Anyhow, your main ideas are perfectly sound and well needed on this forum (sooooo many people in the under 100 post category compared to when I signed up 2 years ago) Wow things really have changed around here.

Cheers,

Brad

[Slin]

I don't get what all the negativity is. I have found every question I have asked here has been answered in a good way. It has led me to money.

Most responses I find here are actually pretty dang good! I mean there are a few things I still wish someone would have told me earlier (get a list, make your own product) but this forum has been great!

I do agree about the PPC thing though, everyonce in awhile I will notice someone giving say SEO advise when I am pretty sure they just outsource theirs..or don't do it at all.

[Mountainmotorman]

I agree with you to a point. I am a member of a few different sites that deal with marketing and other interests I have. FACT: there are people that will help you and they DO KNOW what they are talking about. FACT: there are a lot of people that do not know a damn thing and just like to post because for some reason they think they know about the issue and want to add to their post count.

ANSWER: look for help from someone you know is qualified in the subject you need help on. Do not take advice from ANYONE you do not know has REAL KNOWLEDGE!

It is that simple. I would never post about something I am not sure about. I only help where I know the answer is 100% right. Otherwise you get a bad name for yourself.

[Bob Harmon]

Being new to this forum I have been reading a lot more than replying for the main reason I don't want to look like an idiot in front of people who are far more experienced than myself. While I'm not completely new to this IM thing I do understand it takes a very long time to undo one stupid impulsive post...

I agree there is a lot of junk posted here but when you compare it to any other IM forum I have ever been a part of this place rocks. I have been able to glean several golden nuggets of info even from junk posts because with every opinion there is at least some element of truth to it for that person. The key is knowing how to take that opinion and twist it into something you can use in your business.(but that's just my opinion )

Good idea for a thread...

[James Clark]

To the OP!

If you don't know who you should take advice from just send me a PM and I will tell you. We all have been through this, its just a matter of keep on trying until you find the correct group of Marketers to follow. Not everyone in the business is a snake!

Jimmy

[Chris Stigson]

II agree an disagree to this. I mean, many posts are made to make the person ACT, in any way. Even a "bad method" is a good method for the person if they do it, because they will then learn that it is not a valid method.

The things you hear once or twice you have "heard about"...

The things you have tried once or twice you have "some experience" with...

The things you do every day and get results with is "what you are an expert at"...

I agree that if you have heard about PPC and CB you should not give advice on it...

I agree that if you see people saying "do article marketing", you should not start doing those types of posts, unless you have at least a good amount of articles, with various products in many niches before you "quite understand it"...

A method is also not valid after only a few weeks... Odds are it will die off pretty soon, like many rankings and tools that show "magic results"... Focus on building a good busines from square one. That's my biggest tip and I can say it because I've done practically every method in the book...

I've read a lot of stuff, a lot of repeated content, lot of fluff and lot of repeated info.

Some things you hear over and over again, yet when you try it you see dismal results at best. Some things WORK, just not for your website. BECAUSE IT SUCKS. Nothing can save it.

I thought I had a ROCKSTAR website when I first got started. Looking at it today (because it hasn't change on purpose) I laugh at it. It takes time and evolution guys... Hope you understand that before you go about ANY method, even my methods.

It's not a quick fix, just a proven method that has a learning curve.

Most people want to pass college without going through 1-6th grade. Won't happen. Sorry.

- Chris

[Chrissy Allen]

Hey Guys

The fact is.... Sometimes People will act as if they know more than they do
The fact is.....There will be false promises made.
The fact is.....Something that is great for one person may be useless to another
The fact is.....The answers are here in here, you just have to find them because...
The fact is.....This place is great
The fact is..... I Love It

Warmest Regards
Chunkynuts

PS Remember....Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts !

[Mr Brightside]

I agree there is a lot of rubbish for free on these forums. But a lot of that rubbish is then recycled into a paid for product that is marketed to gullible IM wannabe's.

Action is the key to success in IM and if you are stuck for a product to market, don't suddenly invent a 'new', 'secret' for anyone wanting to make a squillion dollars for only $17 ($197 value).

[Kevin Riley]

Originally Posted by Josef_Benjamin

People try things "once or twice", and come on forums to complain about how it doesn't work...when it COULD work for the person who actually put's in the effort and dedication to get it to work for them.

As a product creator (and producer of courses for this niche) I get frustrated trying to get my customers to actually make full use of my products. I know that if they apply themselves fully (without distraction from the next "latest and greatest" shiny) they will succeed - and I can get some more good testimonials, too.

Problem is, how do I include automatic electric cattle prods to keep them focused? Anyone who solves that, I'll JV with you

[SurviveUnemployment]

Hey Josef,

Why don't you take your own advice and...

Seriously, just shut up.

If you're going to call someone out for giving bad advice, call them out directly. Call them out in the thread where the bad advice occurs. This general "people give advice about things they know nothing about" complaint is cowardly. You see bull****, call it. Don't make generalizations.

I've learned more on this forum than I ever learned from some huckster giving away a poorly written e-book so they can spam me, and "proof" in the form of income claims does not impress me.

People try things "once or twice", and come on forums to complain about how it doesn't work...when it COULD work for the person who actually put's in the effort and dedication to get it to work for them.

Sounds like somebody who is ticked about a lot of refund requests. Sorry, but that's how it comes off. Maybe you should work on the quality of your own products and you'll achieve my < 1% refund rate.

[Marketing_Bull]

Dear Sir,

Can u help to advice who should we follow?

Thanks

[Simon Ashari]

Geez.

Looks like someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.


Novices posing as professionals is not just limited to forums (or the online world). Happens offline a lot too (funnily enough).


regard

Simon

[butters]

Let me take me for example, I post something which I may think will help someone but no I have no previous knowledge in that field of expertise (I normally say this) I should just shut up? Personally I am here to learn, if my advice is crap and wrong, people will say and I will learn. Its not hard to spot a trend of correct information in a thread, its really easy actually. If the person who posted a question wants to take random peoples advice as gold then its there own fault. All they got to do ask the question, look at the answers, then go to google and see if it is backed up else where.

If I have picked up some knowledge from reading an ebook or an article, it is only right to pass that knowledge on and leave it up to the person if they want to take that advice. Well thats how I feel anyway.

[JeffLam]

Josef,

I do not agree wholeheartedly with your views.

A forum has its purpose: for users to form communities and interact - for new ideas to sprout - for people to voice out their views and opinions, however absurd it may sound - so everyone can learn and be exposed to more and hopefully new ideas and stuff.

If, like what you recommend - people who doesn't know anything should just shut up, then we might as well not have a forum.

We should just have a "Warrior Website" instead where we simply sell only the products, or have dozens of articles on fixed methods by those that made it work so newbies don't EVER get misleaded: they simply read those articles and if they put in the effort, it should work.

Now I understand that yes, too many people are simply "acting the expert".. but like what a few others have echoed, their views are not gospel. It depends on the reader to decipher what they read, and decide for themselves whether its junk or treasure.

My humble opinion? Have an open mind to read everything, have an analytical and rational mind to weigh out opinions and ideas, and have a masterful and visionary mind when choosing and carrying out the certain action that will bring you to your next best profitable business venture.

[Bob Harmon]

Originally Posted by butters

Let me take me for example, I post something which I may think will help someone but no I have no previous knowledge in that field of expertise (I normally say this) I should just shut up? Personally I am here to learn, if my advice is crap and wrong, people will say and I will learn. Its not hard to spot a trend of correct information in a thread, its really easy actually. If the person who posted a question wants to take random peoples advice as gold then its there own fault. All they got to do ask the question, look at the answers, then go to google and see if it is backed up else where.

If I have picked up some knowledge from reading an ebook or an article, it is only right to pass that knowledge on and leave it up to the person if they want to take that advice. Well thats how I feel anyway.

Well said...while we can't be an expert in everything we should share the knowledge we do have. Who knows that could be the one missing piece of someone else's puzzle.

[Mark Jordan]

I have been on a lot of forums covering all sorts of subjects. There will always be those who just want to talk, even though they really have nothing of value to say. It is the nature of the beast. You can complain about it all day long, it won't do any good. The only thing to do is learn to spot the ones who complain about things but can't give a good reason why they are complaining.

Ignor them.

[Chris Worner]

wholeheartedly agree with Josef, it is so annoying when you are starting out as I am, and you keep getting conflicting information as pointed. It is hard to know who to listen to and who not to.

It really does send your head into a spin and I often find it very demotivating to continue.

[yanter]

Agree, I wasted many years until I found the Warriors Forum

[harrydog]

Hi Everyone
really interesting thread. I have been lurking for a long time on this forum and have just recently started getting involved. I have never actually given specific advice on any particular topic as I am always concious of being wrong and giving misleading information to someone. I do find it hard to find information on a particular topic that I can 100% trust as there is so much info on here and alot of it conflicts. i.e. the "SEO myth about Duplicate content" I still dont know for sure if Duplicate content is good or bad!!
I have a suggestion ( I may be shot down in flames for this) why dont we as a collective nominate people who you the members believe to give good quality information on particular topics. So who's info on say PPC is good solid info etc or SEo or link building or article writing or CPA you could go on and on but for Newbies this place can be a minefield.

Just a suggestion
many thanks
Mark Jackson