Is this a dishonest marketer?

[gibbey]

Greetings,

Over the years I have bought thousands and thousands of dollars of online info products as many of us on this forum have.

I think the first online marketing product I purchased was Corey Rudl's "Insider Secrets to Marketing Your Business On The Internet"
which I bought in 1998.

I have a 1 TB external hard drive that is literally over half full with internet marketing stuff....

I write all this to say I very rarely ask for refunds and I am not one of those tire kickers who are always looking to get something for free.

On May 2 2009 I purchased an online info course on how to write online copy. For whatever reason it was a hard read for me and it never helped me to write any better nor did it give any AH HAA moments.

The item has a one year money back guarantee. The guarantee was one of the reasons I trusted the marketer and purchased....

*********************
"You risk nothing! You have a No-Risk 365 Days 100% Money-Back Guarantee! .....

AND, if after driving targeted traffic to your sales letter for a reasonable amount of time and sending out a few email promotions you do not easily make back at least 3 times your investment... then I insist you return it... and I will credit your bank account for every penny you've paid. No questions asked - No hard feelings! It's just not that big of a deal!"
*********************

On Oct 14, 5 months after purchasing the item, and after several attempts to get something out of the item I respectfully requested a refund, (it is a $200 item, allot of money for me if I got nothing out of it....)

I sent several emails over a weeks time to the support email listed on the website and also CC them to the contact email listed for the domain, no answer back.

Several weeks later I wrote I had purchased domains close to his and was planning to put up websites telling how I couldn’t get a refund.

The next day he finally wrote back (Oct 27) saying:
"this is the first refund request message
I 've received from you, it must have
been lost in the shuffle..."

On Oct 28 he wrote:
"I'll process your refund in a few days, just
let me finish a new promotion I'm working on
that will fund my PayPal account.

9 days later on Nov 6 he wrote:
"That promotion got a little delayed but my
accountant already knows about your refund.

It won't take more than a week or two at the
most for you to receive your money...

I figure that if you took 4 months to decide
and ask for a refund, you can wait just a
little bit longer to get it right?

Again, you'll receive your money within a
week or two at the most, for sure..."

Now it’s Nov 20 (2 weeks later) and still no refund.

It has been over a month since my original refund request
and after several back and forth emails, no refund.

Is it wrong of me to be totally pi**ed off.

Trust is the only thing that allows purchases to go on via the internet. Its crap like this that gives other online marketers a bad name.

I am ready to complain to PayPal, his ISP, the FTC, the BBB and to create several websites warning others of what I have gone through....

I guess I am looking for thoughts and insights from others who have been through this type of thing. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

PS. The marketer is a member of this forum and does sell items on this forum. I have tried not to give away his ID just in case this does get resolved, (highly doubt it though...)


Thanks,

Gibbey

[Traffic_Is_King]

Check to see if they have a number you can call. Also see if they are on Twitter and send them a DM. Check if they have a Facebook page and try contacting them through there as well. I usually Google people that I am going to buy from and see what stuff is out there. But 4 months to get a refund is a long time.

[gibbey]

To be fair I had the item for 5 months.

I first asked for a refund on Oct 14 and was first told on Oct 28 that the refund would only take a couple of days....

Its been 37 days since I first asked for a refund.. and its been 23 days since I was told "I'll process your refund in a few days"....

The product has a "365 day refund" policy on the site....

Thanks,

John

[Dan Klatt]

I had a problem with two ghostwriters, one for $167 where they talked a good game for a month and delivered nothing. Then it seems they got divorced and did the "I thought she took care of it" bit and more promises. Zero results.

The second was for $297 and this Warrior member promised me the refund for a year so far.

In your case, I agree that you may change your approach and ask him the questions that would help you get the results you expected from the material, have him do copy critiques for you, or coaching or writing headlines and bullet points. If he has integrity, he should do what he can to help you get more than the dollar amount, in value.

Hope that helps,
Dan

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by gibbey

Is it wrong of me to be totally pi**ed off.

No, of course not.

Originally Posted by gibbey

Trust is the only thing that allows purchases to go on via the internet. Its crap like this that gives other online marketers a bad name.

I agree.

The problem here may be that your man doesn't have $200. If he really hasn't, complaining to PayPal, his ISP, the FTC, the BBB and creating websites warning others of what you've gone through may not help. Then again, the threat of them may help him to realise that he has actually got $200?

Originally Posted by gibbey

The marketer is a member of this forum and does sell items on this forum.

Hmm, does he know that you are, too?

Did you buy this as a WSO? You may have other remedies, if so?

[Jeremy Kelsall]

If they offered a refund, then you should be refunded immediately - at least within 24 hours....

If they need a new product to launch to refund $200 - they should not be selling information products showing people how to get "rich"...

If you think dealing with product creators to get refunds is a pain in the ass...try dealing with product buyers that agreed to "no refunds" and then try to refund....lol

Some people just don't get it.

[Christophe Young]

I hate hearing about stories like this. I would have opened a PP dispute long ago.

Makes you wonder who you can really trust around here.

[Jamie Lewis]

Originally Posted by gibbey

I figure that if you took 4 months to decide
and ask for a refund, you can wait just a little bit longer to get it right?

Did he really say this to you? A paying customer? If so, he needs to learn an important lesson.
A failed business, not honoring your money back guarantee AND disrespect? Unacceptable.

[keweus]

after you get your money back you should reinvest it into a better course with an ironclad guarantee like this one:

Power Web Copywriting Made Simple

[gibbey]

Ok... Sorry for the delay. Had to take 3 starving kids out to dinner.

Believe it or not we have an update....

After I received:

"It won't take more than a week or two at the
most for you to receive your money... "

and after patiently waiting for two weeks and after not receiving any emails not hearing anything, I fired off the following email this afternoon:

******************
Ok....

"It won't take more than a week or two at the
most for you to receive your money..."

It's been two weeks today and still nothing, no email,
no refund.. nothing.

I first asked for a refund on Oct 14. Its been 37 days
since I first asked for a refund.

The only conclusion I can come to is either
your playing games with me, you are a thief, or
you really don't know how to make money online.....

I am done playing.

I am going to lodge a complaint with paypal,
your ISP along with the other items/websites
I have planend.

If you honor your refund I'll stop.

I am truly sorry it has come to this but if you
can't honor your written guarantee then
you can't be trusted and you shouldnt
be selling anything on the internet as you
give honest marketers a bad name.
******************



An hour or two later I started this post on
the warrior forum.....

I then take the kids to dinner....



I then come back find the following email
in my mailbox:

******************
I am very sorry you feel that way, of course I'm
honoring your refund, that's my guarantee...

1.- Your refund has already been scheduled by my
accountant for next Monday Nov/23/2009.

It would have been immediate if you had asked for
a refund earlier than 4 months after your purchase,
but you are getting it on Monday anyway.


2.- The promotion I told you about took place this
week as I told you before. I was going to offer it
to you because is a full niche business in a box,
but I wasn't sure you would have wanted it.

If you are at least curious about it, you can check
it out here: http://xxxxxxxxxxxx.com/xxxxxx/


(PLEASE CONFIRM RECEPTION OF THIS MESSAGE)



Again, your refund has already been scheduled by my
accountant for next Monday Nov/23/2009.
******************

This is the whole email and untouched except for the xxxx.com part...... I X'ed out the domain.


Something tells me he saw this thread and realized I was/am serious about letting the proverbial crap fly....

But is this part for real????? :

"It would have been immediate if you had asked for
a refund earlier than 4 months after your purchase,
but you are getting it on Monday anyway."


Is it me? Am I misreading this?

A little heads up for the marketer.... I am taking the above as "If you had asked for the refund earlier I might not have spent your money, you can't really expect me to hold on to your money for a whole year as stated in my money back guarantee do you?

News flash....

I expect you to do what you have to do to honor your guarantee... your promise to your website customers and visitors or don't make it at all!

If you can only hold on to the money for 2 weeks then make it a 2 week money back guarantee!

As it stands right now take some of your earnings (maybe 10% until you figure out your return rate) and put them into an ING savings account earning 3%, then pay the damn refund requests on time!

I know they are a pain in the back side but look at it this way... If you have a high refund rate it might be time to revamp your product. And if I am the only refund you got and you cant afford to pay it back how the hell are you showing people how to make money online????

What you are doing is called a pyramid scheme, a ponzi scheme!!!

You are selling an item then taking the next guys purchase to pay for the last refund.

How long would Sears last if you return a TV that didnt fit into your entertainment system and were told you had to wait over a month until they sold another TV to pay you back?!?!?!?

[deep breath] [deep breath] [deep breath] [deep breath]

Ok... sorry guys.. I didnt mean to go off like this but this has been under my skin for over a month...

As it stands right now I am on hold until Monday... Again.....


John

[gibbey]

Jeremy,

I appologize but I cant PM as it says I need at least 50 posts and I only have 37.

If you want you can email me at warriorsforum [at] marketingstars [dot] com

[TommyBussey]

Originally Posted by Jamie Lewis

Did he really say this to you? A paying customer? If so, he needs to learn an important lesson.
A failed business, not honoring your money back guarantee AND disrespect? Unacceptable.

I agree Jamie, that line actually got ME pissed off too! That is just so disrespectful. I sure wish there was a way to wash the internet completely clean of people like this.

It is bad enough to not follow through with your guarantees (promises), but it's a whole different story to blatantly treat someone WHO PAID YOU with such disrespect and rudeness.

OP, one thing you can find peace in is that this person who's done this to you will certainly get what's coming to them. Unethical practices in any business (and life for that matter) always have a way of coming back around.

Best of luck to you, and keep your spirits up. Keep working hard. Take action with knowledge you have and build a business that will allow you treat your customers with the kindness they deserve.

- Tommy

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Did you buy this as a WSO? You may have other remedies, if so?

Hi Alexa,

No, I bought this from his regular product website... i just know he is a member here and has had WSO's ....

Thanks,

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by healymedia

So you're supposed to believe that this guy has an accountant he pays to handle things like this, but yet he doesn't have $200 available to give you a refund? What a joke.

Hi healymedia,

It sounds strange to me that you would have your "accountant" log into your paypal account to send refunds etc... Maybe that is what the problem is?


John

[redicelander]

Either the guys dishonest or he's a horrible business person and just blows any money he receives on his products right away. That leaves no money left for refunds...

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

If you think dealing with product creators to get refunds is a pain in the ass...try dealing with product buyers that agreed to "no refunds" and then try to refund....lol

Some people just don't get it.

Hi Jeremy,

If you are asking for a refund where it is stated there are no refunds then the buyer is probably one of those tire kickers...

I have bought several items and scripts with no refunds and totally understand their position. If the product doesn't work out I might but mad but mostly at myself. I don't take it out on the marketer. He was honest and upfront.

This was not one of those times....

Thanks,

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by Jamie Lewis

Did he really say this to you? A paying customer? If so, he needs to learn an important lesson.
A failed business, not honoring your money back guarantee AND disrespect? Unacceptable.

Absolutely true... I wrote several emails with no answer. As soon as I say I'm going to make a stink all of a sudden he answers but with little digs like above (at least I take it that way).

Thanks,

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by keweus

after you get your money back you should reinvest it into a better course with an ironclad guarantee like this one:

Power Web Copywriting Made Simple

keweus,

You are the man!
Thanks,

John

[Aj Wilson]

I agree.

The problem here may be that your man doesn't have $200. If he really hasn't, complaining to PayPal, his ISP, the FTC, the BBB and creating websites warning others of what you've gone through may not help. Then again, the threat of them may help him to realise that he has actually got $200?

Alexa...
You're too nice

Gibbey luv...

Some simple research...

A quick "who is" on a few of his websites...

Go grab the butcher knife from your kitchen draw...

Then Turn Demon on his a$$

all the best babes x

- aj

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by gibbey

"It would have been immediate if you had asked for a refund earlier than 4 months after your purchase, but you are getting it on Monday anyway."

My general expectation is that if you are going to ask for a refund, you'll do it within a month. If you're busy or really trying hard, you'll do it within two months. And after three months, if you were going to ask for a refund, you'd have done it already.

So if it's been over three months since your purchase, it doesn't seem reasonable that you'd expect me to have your money in my pocket right now. Particularly during a product launch, when everything I have might be committed to the launch.

THAT SAID... if it had been me, I would have been a lot more frank and open about it. I would have said something like this:

"Wow, I generally don't expect anyone to ask for a refund after the three-month mark; all of my available money is committed to a product launch right now, so it will be some time - at least a couple weeks - before I can send you the cash. Actually, would you like to trade up to my new product at no cost to you? It's blah blah blah, and you might have better luck with it... but if it still doesn't meet your needs, I'll happily issue your refund."

Honesty works. Really, it does.

[Steven D Smith]

My opinion is that clearly he is a dishonest seller. He is probably pretending to be making tens of thousands per week, when in fact he is just scraping by.

Hopefully he sees this thread and decides he better make returning your money his priority.

Steve

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by TommyBussey

OP, one thing you can find peace in is that this person who's done this to you will certainly get what's coming to them. Unethical practices in any business (and life for that matter) always have a way of coming back around.

Absolutely, Actually I really am not trying to stick it to the guy... I just don't ever want any one else to go through this kinda BS.

Just dealing with this kinda attitude makes me loose my religion! :-)

Originally Posted by TommyBussey

Best of luck to you, and keep your spirits up. Keep working hard. Take action with knowledge you have and build a business that will allow you treat your customers with the kindness they deserve.
- Tommy

Thnaks Tommy,
I too believe in Karma,keep doing whats right and try to help as many people as possible along the way, it will eventually work its way to the sunny side...

Thanks,

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by redicelander

Either the guys dishonest or he's a horrible business person and just blows any money he receives on his products right away. That leaves no money left for refunds...

Hi redicelander,

I think that was what was happening... I just thought he would have made $200 during the past 37 days... That with the little attitude emails just left me feeling like I was being jerked around....

Thanks,

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by Aj Wilson

Alexa...
You're too nice

Gibbey luv...

Some simple research...

A quick "who is" on a few of his websites...

Go grab the butcher knife from your kitchen draw...

Then Turn Demon on his a$$

all the best babes x

- aj

AJ, You have qa way with words...

remind me not to tick you off....

Thanks,

John

[TheWealthSquad]

Honesty is always the best policy. When a customer asks for a refund, you have an opportunity to win them over. By treating them with respect and dignity. You gain nothing by taking shots at your customers.

Even the tire kickers have friends who may one day buy your product. If you have a year guarantee, refund them. Go on with life. If you don't have the $200, tell them. My cash flow is pretty tight right now as we are launching a new product. Since my last product doesn't seem to have met your needs, I would love to provide you a copy of the current one for free. If you like it, let me know. Once I have the product launched, I will refund your money. Right now the timing looks like 3 weeks to launch (Always include a cushion for things to go wrong).

Then you can turn a client into a raving fan rather than a ranting fiend (No offense OP).

Being in business means meeting your obligations. Keeping your promises. Your word is the only thing you have so make it mean something.

[redicelander]

Ya, this really definitely seems fishy and raises alarm bells in my mind, for sure, at least the way you have described it. I would say wait until the end of the month, keep trying to contact him. If he does not respond anymore, give him a warning that are you going to come down hard on him with BBB, FTC, etc. and give him a one week deadline for that refund.

[Business_Skater]

At least you got your money back I would have been pissed also.

[D89]

No, I dont think he is necessarily dishonest. I think maybe a bit weak.

Someone obviously advised him incorrectly about having such an open guarantee.


As for your part, 'COME ON!!' doesn't anyone else just think this is unethical on your part?


Just because Levi's says that you can at anytime replace your old jeans for a new one without question, do you really bring in a 5 year old worn out pair of jeans to a levi's store and ask for a new one?


I am sorry but the fault is on your part. Its selfish and inconsiderate.

You should have been not so lazy and returned it a long time ago. You are typical of people who buy things and put it on a shelf. Perhaps you needed the money and decided to use this poor guys open guarantee.

Its also foolish on the part of the marketer for having such an agreement. This should teach him a lesson and maybe he will change this policy.


If a restaurant has an open policy to repay you if you do not like the meal, do you eat everything and then ask for a refund?


Somethings are offered as a measure of trust and kindness but not to be abused.

[tryinhere]

Yes you should get your money back if it was stated a 12 month guarantee, it is also very very rare a person decides on the money back after 4 months. In most cases if a product or service does not work it is returned within 7 to 14 days max.

In many ways, long refund periods can cause a problem, if it were 60 days then it would have been covered and in cases with long time periods most of the refund claims are more people tying to get money back and not a problem with the product as such.

I am not implying this in your case but 99% of cases like this are because people have run out of money and not that the product is faulty or bad, if it was then yes as above 7 - 14 days maximum for a refund.

This still does not excuse the person if he had a 12 month return policy, and he should expect this to happen from time to time if so.

I hope your funds are returned soon.

[TheWealthSquad]

Unethical? He stated that he had tried the system out several times. He made an effort to make it work but did not have success. A guarantee is a contract.

The purpose of a guarantee is to increase sales by reducing your risk and increasing trust. The Majority of people do not take you up on them just like mail in rebates. This the reason they provide a huge profit boost to a company when done correctly.

It is neither selfish nor inconsiderate to ask for a refund when one has been guaranteed. In this case the issue lies directly on the seller. When you make a guarantee you keep it. Period. No discussion no debate.

Advised him incorrectly? How do you know? Guarantees work. There is extensive evidence that they do. They have been tested repeatedly.

I have written refund checks out of my own pocket when my company was going through tight cash flow times. If you make a promise as a business person you make it right. Period.

(Taking deep breathes now so I don't go on a very long rant)

Don't want any refunds? Don't offer a guarantee. Accept the lower sales.

If you truly have the opinion you listed below, Please remind me to NEVER do business with you in any capacity.

Originally Posted by D89

No, I dont think he is necessarily dishonest. I think maybe a bit weak.

Someone obviously advised him incorrectly about have such an open guarantee.


As for your part, 'COME ON!!' doesn't anyone else just think this is unethical on your part?


Just because Levi's says that you can at anytime replace your old jeans for a new one without question, do you really bring your old worn out jeans to a levi's store and ask for a new one?


I am sorry but the fault is on your part. Its selfish and inconsiderate.
and foolish on the part of the marketer for having such an agreement. This should teach him a lesson and maybe he will change this policy.

[D89]

Originally Posted by Steven D Smith

My opinion is that clearly he is a dishonest seller. He is probably pretending to be making tens of thousands per week, when in fact he is just scraping by.

Hopefully he sees this thread and decides he better make returning your money his priority.

Steve

You are making assumptions. Do you know this person personally?

Have you ever heard of a crisis? Things happen that people dont expect.

We cannot jump to conclusions and beat down on someone without knowing.


I think the buyer is just as at fault too.

[Gerry Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Business_Skater

At least you got your money back I would have been pissed also.

He hasn't gotten it back yet.. it is just 'scheduled' for next Monday (Nov 23, 2009)

I usually offer 45 day MBG so it is within the PayPal window of doing a quick refund (and no loss of paypal fees.) It also gives a chance to communicate in case there is an issue. I have given back refunds much later, but do charge less any PayPal or processing fees if it is beyond the stated date.

I think "TheWealthSquad" hit on it pretty good. Be honest, upfront and open.

Also, if there is still a bit of time in the refund window, in the case of a product like this, at least ask the customer if they need some help, clarification or some assistance. Even if they still want the refund the extra bit will keep them as a customer (and from having to post threads like this) =)

[gibbey]

Hi CDarklock,

Originally Posted by CDarklock

My general expectation is that if you are going to ask for a refund, you'll do it within a month. If you're busy or really trying hard, you'll do it within two months. And after three months, if you were going to ask for a refund, you'd have done it already.

Totally agree. It may not be the norm, it may have even been stupid on my part to wait that long, but I don't think you should be totally thrown off if you are offering a 1 year money back guarantee...

Originally Posted by CDarklock

So if it's been over three months since your purchase, it doesn't seem reasonable that you'd expect me to have your money in my pocket right now. Particularly during a product launch, when everything I have might be committed to the launch. Particularly during a product launch, when everything I have might be committed to the launch.

I think I might respectfully disagree here. I understand with the cash being tight idea,(I have a wife and three kids running on one job right now... trust me I know financially tight...) and maybe because I haven't had a large scale launch maybe I am naive but I still think that as a good business model if you have websites selling items you have to hold back working capital in reserve for normal daily operating costs including regular refunds... or if you need ALL of your cash for a launch temporarily stop selling items that may normally have refunds....

This guy has at least 5 online websites right now selling info and software items sorrounding how to make money themes... I can't believe he is so tight as not to be able to afford one lousy refund. Wouldn't it have been better to hold back enough cash to pay for what the sites have been costing the last 5-6 months and if this straps you too tight then just hold off the big launch, keep operating your bread and butter sites until you have enough in reserve otherwise this kind of stuff happens and you risk loosing your bread and butter sites? What happens if his big launch goes belly up? He could loose everything, bread and butter, big launch and all?

If I go down to vegas I don't thrown it ALL down on red, food money, rent money everything? Not unless you want to walk home....

Originally Posted by CDarklock

THAT SAID... if it had been me, I would have been a lot more frank and open about it. I would have said something like this:

"Wow, I generally don't expect anyone to ask for a refund after the three-month mark; all of my available money is committed to a product launch right now, so it will be some time - at least a couple weeks - before I can send you the cash. Actually, would you like to trade up to my new product at no cost to you? It's blah blah blah, and you might have better luck with it... but if it still doesn't meet your needs, I'll happily issue your refund."

Honesty works. Really, it does.

Totally Agree my freind, being frank is the ticket... And to be up front he did offer to go over "copywriting" with me but by this time I was allready hot under the collar... I had been sending emails to his "support" email address along with the contact emial address for the domain with no replies... then to write stuff like:

"I figure that if you took 4 months to decide
and ask for a refund, you can wait just a
little bit longer to get it right?

Again, you'll receive your money within a
week or two at the most, for sure..."

then when it goes past this time, no email, no nothing over and over again?

I feel as though I am getting played. I dont want to interact with this guy, I don't want to invite him over for Christmas, I am to the point now where I just want my money as promised and part ways.

I have tried being understanding and polite. Now I am just tired. I don't wish him ill will, I don't want him to loose his business's. I just don't want to be treated like a jerk who owed him $200 dollars....

You are totally correct. If there had been open and polite dialog from the beginning there could have been ( and I believe would have been) a totally different outcome.

Maybe you and I will help a new and fledgeling online marketer get off on the right foot after he/she has read all this.

I guess this would have been all well worth it....

Thanks CDarklock,

John

[D89]

Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad

Unethical? He stated that he had tried the system out several times. He made an effort to make it work but did not have success. A guarantee is a contract.

The purpose of a guarantee is to increase sales by reducing your risk and increasing trust. The Majority of people do not take you up on them just like mail in rebates. This the reason they provide a huge profit boost to a company when done correctly.

It is neither selfish nor inconsiderate to ask for a refund when one has been guaranteed. In this case the issue lies directly on the seller. When you make a guarantee you keep it. Period. No discussion no debate.

Advised him incorrectly? How do you know? Guarantees work. There is extensive evidence that they do. They have been tested repeatedly.

I have written refund checks out of my own pocket when my company was going through tight cash flow times. If you make a promise as a business person you make it right. Period.

(Taking deep breathes now so I don't go on a very long rant)

Don't want any refunds? Don't offer a guarantee. Accept the lower sales.

If you truly have the opinion you listed below, Please remind me to NEVER do business with you in any capacity.

Dont make excuses for this buyer. I see clearly that the guarantee should be honored but the buyer is also a slacker all the same. It took him that many months to check the product and then to ask for a refund on such a product???

huh suspect!!! Did you purchase a vacum clearner that broke down yes sure get a refund but come on..


I need to go take a deep long breath and a break tooo!!!!!

NONSENSE all of this is nonsense.


this speaks volumes for this buyer and how well he will do in IM...no focus


Good Luck!

[Steven D Smith]

Originally Posted by D89

You are making assumptions. Do you know this person personally?

Have you ever heard of a crisis? Things happen that people dont expect.

We cannot jump to conclusions and beat down on someone without knowing.


I think the buyer is just as at fault too.

I don't need to know the person personally to know they owe this buyer a refund. If the seller is in a crisis situation it's up to him to say so.

I hope to never so business with you in the future.

Steve

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by Steven D Smith

My opinion is that clearly he is a dishonest seller. He is probably pretending to be making tens of thousands per week, when in fact he is just scraping by.

Hopefully he sees this thread and decides he better make returning your money his priority.

Steve

I hope so too Steve. I have never gone through something like this.

I just hope this helps someone one way or ther other.....

Like I wrote to CDarklock,

"Maybe you and I will help a new and fledgeling online marketer get off on the right foot after he/she has read all this.

I guess this would have been all well worth it...."

Thanks,

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by TheWealthSquad

Honesty is always the best policy. When a customer asks for a refund, you have an opportunity to win them over. By treating them with respect and dignity. You gain nothing by taking shots at your customers.

Even the tire kickers have friends who may one day buy your product. If you have a year guarantee, refund them. Go on with life. If you don't have the $200, tell them. My cash flow is pretty tight right now as we are launching a new product. Since my last product doesn't seem to have met your needs, I would love to provide you a copy of the current one for free. If you like it, let me know. Once I have the product launched, I will refund your money. Right now the timing looks like 3 weeks to launch (Always include a cushion for things to go wrong).

Then you can turn a client into a raving fan rather than a ranting fiend (No offense OP).

Being in business means meeting your obligations. Keeping your promises. Your word is
the only thing you have so make it mean something.

TheWealthSquad,

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If everyone acted like that (both sellers and buyers) life would be so much nicer.

I think you have just hit the mark of a business model we should all strive for.

Thanks,

John

[D89]

Originally Posted by Steven D Smith

I don't need to know the person personally to know they owe this buyer a refund. If the seller is in a crisis situation it's up to him to say so.

I hope to never so business with you in the future.

Steve

I am very, very honest and I would tell the buyer clearly what my situation is and ask for some time....I also would never have such a long guarantee.

But, I also have a more open, higher prespective than this lets gang up on this man mentality.

As a seller of goods online, i have seen what greedy, unthinking people do. I have had guaranteed for 60 days that people have tried to break after several months and i know where it is comming from.

Just because this man is the one playing the victim roll does not mean that he is...I still think he is at fault....

Should he get his refund. YES, absolutely because the guarantee states so. I would honor it.

However it is clear that something is wrong here, 5 months...come on!

later for this, i wont return to this thread. It irritates me because I can see what is happening more clearly than many of you will.

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by redicelander

Ya, this really definitely seems fishy and raises alarm bells in my mind, for sure, at least the way you have described it. I would say wait until the end of the month, keep trying to contact him. If he does not respond anymore, give him a warning that are you going to come down hard on him with BBB, FTC, etc. and give him a one week deadline for that refund.

This time he says his accountant will have it entered on Monday.

I will wait and see....

I am just tired. He says one thing and that time comes and goes, I then have to contact him. Then he gives another date and that comes and goes, I again have to recontact him.... I just feel as though I am getting the run around... I'm just tired of it which is the wrong feelings you want to give when running a business....

Thanks redicelander,

John

[Steven D Smith]

Originally Posted by D89

I am very, very honest and I would tell the buyer clearly what my situation is and ask for some time....I also would never have such a long guarantee.

But, I also have a more open, higher prespective than this lets gang up on this man mentality.

As a seller of goods online, i have seen what greedy, unthinking people do. I have had guaranteed for 60 days that people have tried to break after several months and i know where it is comming from.

Just because this man is the one playing the victim roll does not mean that he is...I still think he is at fault....

Should he get his refund. YES, absolutely because the guarantee states so. I would honor it.

However it is clear that something is wrong here, 5 months...come on!

later for this, i wont return to this thread. It irritates me because I can see what is happening more clearly than many of you will.

I am a seller of goods also. However, I honor every request instantly, whether I agree with it or not. I also apologize to the buyer that my product did not meet his expectations.

An honorable business person is one which buyers will come back to. If a seller offers a 365 day guarantee, he must honor it.

You almost seem to have some vested interest in the outcome of this.

Steve

[Jamie Lewis]

Ok now Im just getting ticked off. What is this with the 4 months thing?

"It would have been immediate if you had asked for a refund earlier than 4 months after your purchase, but you are getting it on Monday anyway."

A 365 day guarantee means 365 days. What in the world.

And all of this garble about how if you wait 4 months it's your fault, yadda yadda. Look at this guy's replies. It's clear as crystal. Using an accountant to issue a refund? That is some BS.

1. Don't do a 365 day guarantee, that does not make any sense.
2. Have paypal connected to your expense account to issue refunds. (If not, ???)
3. Don't lie to your customer
4. Don't disrespect your customer

I think these outweigh any alleged "consumer abuse."

[JeffLam]

Wow gibbey,

Been tracking this thread for awhile and gotta say I sympathise with you.

No excuse for the seller, IMO.

If you cannot hold on to the money for a certain time, then do not give out false guarantees that claims you will refund it after 1 year.

Plain and simple.

Not all products take 3 months to work out well. Some can take 9 months. Whatever it is, give a realistic guarantee vs effectiveness of product time.

Hope it all turns out well for you gibbey.

[gibbey]

Hi D89,

Originally Posted by D89

No, I dont think he is necessarily dishonest. I think maybe a bit weak.

Someone obviously advised him incorrectly about having such an open guarantee.


As for your part, 'COME ON!!' doesn't anyone else just think this is unethical on your part?


Just because Levi's says that you can at anytime replace your old jeans for a new one without question, do you really bring in a 5 year old worn out pair of jeans to a levi's store and ask for a new one?

Unethical? On my part? I think that may just be a poor choice of words on your part. "Stupid" may have been a better word, I'll agree with you on stupid on my part but not unethical, unles you think I am going around purposefully buying and returning stuff.

Actually with that logic I think you can say someone who bought and returned it in 2 weeks is more "unethical." At least I tried several times giving the item a chance.... And as far as waiting too long, isn't that the lure of the "12 month MBG?" Make more sales because the no return pressure is off, hoping the customer doesn't immediately use it, will put it on the back burner and forget about it because "I have 12 months to try to get it to work..."

I don't agree with the levi analogy... bringing back a "5 year old worn out pair of jeans" for a refund compared to this is apples and oranges... The levi guy got use out of the worn out pants... They fit and he wore them for 5 years. He should not bring them back.

If I had never been able to write good webcopy, read this product then began writing product selling websites then yes it would be an abuse by asking for a refund... This is not the case. You are labeling me as being "unethical" totally due to the time issue, it being 4 months after purchase when it has a written 1 year MBG and I just don't agree...

Originally Posted by D89

I am sorry but the fault is on your part. Its selfish and inconsiderate.

I'm just not going to answer as I don't want this to get into a flaming war....

Originally Posted by D89

You should have been not so lazy and returned it a long time ago. You are typical of people who buy things and put it on a shelf.

I disagree with this but there is no way to show or prove this too you. I will say though I think if you were to do statistics on items with a 1 month MBG and a 1 year MBG that you will find the longer the MBG offered the more "put it on the shelf" kind of customers you will attract and/or receive. The good thing for the marketer is it should be overcompensated for by the guys that put it on the shelf and forget about it, never use it and never ask for a refund.....

Originally Posted by D89

Perhaps you needed the money and decided to use this poor guys open guarantee.

I get it... You are one of those market by any means kind of guys arent you? Personally if I really believe I have a good product I just want to market to people that will get some good from it. If my survival as an online marketer depends on shafting the guys that for whatever reason believes the product is not a good fit for them I will think it is time for me to turn it in and start flipping burgers at the local McDonalds....

Originally Posted by D89

If a restaurant has an open policy to repay you if you do not like the meal, do you eat everything and then ask for a refund?

Can you actually name me one restaurant, just one that will let you eat the whole meal then pay you back when you ask for a refund? [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by D89

Somethings are offered as a measure of trust and kindness but not to be abused.

I am sorry but this is my favorite line of this whole post...

His posting of a one year MBG was to build "trust and kindness" , just not to be used. As I am not a mind reader and it is hard for me to decrypt what a marketer is thinking when it isn't what he is writing... what is the fair time frame for someone offering a 12 month MBG? 1, 2, 3 months?

D89, In a nut shell I understand your point on not liking someone putting an item on the shelf then waiting 360 days to look at it, decide it isn't for them then asking for a refund. In a perfect world a marketer shouldn't have to invest the sales/money and wait to spend it until after the MBG expires... But online selling inherently has refunds, hell any market online or offline has refunds. If you don't want to deal with long term refunds then don't offer long term refunds! It's is in the marketers power to offer 7 day or 20 year MBG!

But as far as the "poor guys" (as you described him) getting hit with 1 refund, if he isn't selling more because of the 1 year MBG then he would by offering a 1 month MBG he should not be offering it.

Thanks for telling me your side,

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Yes you should get your money back if it was stated a 12 month guarantee, it is also very very rare a person decides on the money back after 4 months. In most cases if a product or service does not work it is returned within 7 to 14 days max.

In many ways, long refund periods can cause a problem, if it were 60 days then it would have been covered and in cases with long time periods most of the refund claims are more people tying to get money back and not a problem with the product as such.

I am not implying this in your case but 99% of cases like this are because people have run out of money and not that the product is faulty or bad, if it was then yes as above 7 - 14 days maximum for a refund.

This still does not excuse the person if he had a 12 month return policy, and he should expect this to happen from time to time if so.

I hope your funds are returned soon.

Hi tryinhere,

I understand what you are saying and agree, it is both are faults. If I had bought an ebook and was delivered an ebook with 10 blank pages, requested a refund the same day and denied then I think we would all agree that the money should be returned ASAP. I would have no problem waiting, things are not that tough... It is just I feel as though I am being played with and given an attitude, thats where most of the harm is...

Thanks,

John

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by gibbey

Hi tryinhere,

I understand what you are saying and agree, it is both are faults. If I had bought an ebook and was delivered an ebook with 10 blank pages, requested a refund the same day and denied then I think we would all agree that the money should be returned ASAP. I would have no problem waiting, things are not that tough... It is just I feel as though I am being played with and given an attitude, thats where most of the harm is...

Thanks,

John

Yes John, this person regardless of any other factor offered a 12 month guarantee and as such must honor that guarantee without question and in a timely manner, and in your case the replies and delays are not acceptable business practice and needs to be sorted by the person in question sooner rather than later.

Pete

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by D89

I am very, very honest and I would tell the buyer clearly what my situation is and ask for some time....I also would never have such a long guarantee.

But, I also have a more open, higher prespective than this lets gang up on this man mentality.

As a seller of goods online, i have seen what greedy, unthinking people do. I have had guaranteed for 60 days that people have tried to break after several months and i know where it is comming from.

Just because this man is the one playing the victim roll does not mean that he is...I still think he is at fault....

Should he get his refund. YES, absolutely because the guarantee states so. I would honor it.

However it is clear that something is wrong here, 5 months...come on!

later for this, i wont return to this thread. It irritates me because I can see what is happening more clearly than many of you will.

D89,

I know you said you aren't coming back to this thread but I will post this in the slim chance you find it later.

I agree somewhat with what you are saying. I am partially at fault. I have said this several times through several previous posts. I can see your point that I should have and could have decided earlier for a refund. It was my decision based soley on the fact that there was a 1 year MBG.

At my full time job I sometimes have to write long and detailed reports that are read by educated men and women. Sometimes I have learned that after staring at the report for 4 hours I cant see the mistakes if I tried, kind of like the saying Can't see the trees for the forest. I have learned to table it for a day or two the go back at it.

Maybe this is a good habit maybe a bad one, either way it works for me. That is kind of what I did here. Right or wrong.

I can guarantee you that if I had been given a 1 month MBG I wouldnt have tried as much as I did and would have asked for a refund within the 1 month.

I will also guarantee you that if you sell items online you will inevitablly get tire kickers. I have tried to tell you I am not one of those. I genuinely have tried to tell you this about me. Believe me or don't, its your choice but let me ask you one thing....

Have you noticed that I have never used the marketers name and haven't given his website?

Don't you think that if my sole reason for this post was to bash the guy I could have created a new member profile (this is my only one, have been here since Feb 2007) and given his info and slip the dogs of war???

I may be wrong but when you write things like: "But, I also have a more open, higher prespective than this lets gang up on this man mentality. " it sounds like you may know the guyand its personal.

This incident is because it is both our faults and I am not trying to slam the man.

This post is not about the MBG... It is about the treatment of a customer who happens to be asking for a refund.

If you had gone to this guys website and asked questions about his product and you had to send several emails before he answered, and when he did answer he basically said "I'm busy, I'll email you in a couple of days then after a couple of days nothing... so you email him again and he writes back, "look you waited this long for an answer, I'm busy with a new launch, I'll have by accountant write you back in two weeks" and after two weeks you still get no email... would you be a happy camper?

Thats all....nothing more, nothing less.

If you still don't understand where I am coming from I am sorry for waisting your time and mine.

I don't hold any of this against you when you say things like: "this speaks volumes for this buyer and how well he will do in IM...no focus"

If we still disagree lets leave it at that.

I wish you well.

John

[gibbey]

Originally Posted by JeffLam

Wow gibbey,

Been tracking this thread for awhile and gotta say I sympathise with you.

No excuse for the seller, IMO.

If you cannot hold on to the money for a certain time, then do not give out false guarantees that claims you will refund it after 1 year.

Plain and simple.

Not all products take 3 months to work out well. Some can take 9 months. Whatever it is, give a realistic guarantee vs effectiveness of product time.

Hope it all turns out well for you gibbey.

Thanks Jeff,

Continued success....

John

[Wham]

if someone offers a one year guarentee then they need honor that, doesn't matter if you had asked for it on month 1 or month 11. just because it might be abnormal for someone to ask for a refund several months after purchasing doesn't mean anything, it's them that has an abnormal amount of refund time. completely their fault.

it doesnt take 365 days to realize if something works, especially a IM product, stupid move on his part.

[Steven D Smith]

John,

Keep us updated on this as the days go by. Once the seller realizes this thread has become this popular(currently 52 posts), he will be shamed into giving the refund back.

Maybe we can refer him to the thread about making money when you're desperate for it. He can make a few bucks and give you the money you rightfully deserve.

Steve

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by D89

No, I dont think he is necessarily dishonest. I think maybe a bit weak.

Someone obviously advised him incorrectly about having such an open guarantee.


As for your part, 'COME ON!!' doesn't anyone else just think this is unethical on your part?


Just because Levi's says that you can at anytime replace your old jeans for a new one without question, do you really bring in a 5 year old worn out pair of jeans to a levi's store and ask for a new one?


I am sorry but the fault is on your part. Its selfish and inconsiderate.

You should have been not so lazy and returned it a long time ago. You are typical of people who buy things and put it on a shelf. Perhaps you needed the money and decided to use this poor guys open guarantee.

Its also foolish on the part of the marketer for having such an agreement. This should teach him a lesson and maybe he will change this policy.


If a restaurant has an open policy to repay you if you do not like the meal, do you eat everything and then ask for a refund?


Somethings are offered as a measure of trust and kindness but not to be abused.

Wow! You really got to love the, "Its selfish and inconsiderate", bit here. Speaks volumes on how you perceive buyers of your products and services, if you have any...and it's worth noting it.

And it's always amusing to watch these types of threads devolve into what the buyer might be up to or whether the seller might be in crisis or not. It's simply not relevant because the nature of business is contractual - not emotional.

If someone is offering a 365 day refund policy (obviously to make the offer more attractive), then they have a legal obligation to honor it. Seems to me I skimmed over something about this at the FTC not long ago.

It doesn't matter why the buyer wants a refnd and quite frankly, I don't understand why a seller would even bother putting a buyer off with lame comments like I've read here. It's bad for business and nobody wins.

Folks, if you're selling something and don't want to give refunds, then make it clear you don't offer them. If you do choose to offer one, then honor it for crying out loud - what's the big deal?

Yes, you're going to get your fair share of tire kickers and serial refunders, but they do not represent the majority of your buyers. If they did, we'd all be out of business.

And what's this thing with the seller being in crisis? Unless you have a personal relationship with the seller, again, it's a simple business transaction. Since when did buyer's become liable for the health and well being of a business they're buying from?

It's precisely this kind of thing that caused PayPal to start holding back a reserve on a lot of sellers (and do people bitch about that constantly!) to fulfill the seller's obligations for them.

Just because Levi's says that you can at anytime replace your old jeans for a new one without question, do you really bring in a 5 year old worn out pair of jeans to a levi's store and ask for a new one?

Absolutely - nobody forced Levi's to implement that policy (is that their policy?) and they did it to attract more business, which they got. Why on earth should I feel bad for taking advantage of the offer they made in the first place? Sheesh!

I used to buy a lot of Craftsmen tools from Sears...with the agreement that if any tool breaks during it's lifetime, I get a free replacement. And you can damn sure bet I've traded in a broken tool here in there with no qualms whatsoever.

In this case, I don't know the buyer or the seller, but it's a recurring theme I've read here over the years. And it stinks.