Digital Darwinism

Paul Myers · 11-22-2009, 10:42 PM

A friend of mine sent in a spam complaint for a list he knew he had not signed up for. He cc'd the mailer and their web host. The mailer replied with a note very much like this:

"If you don't want any more mail from us, unsubscribe. Then get a life."

Yeah. He sent that to a random stranger who had just told him they had not asked to be on the list he was mailing.

I've gotten responses like this in the past from spam complaints about people in this group. I did not do what this fellow did, but I may in the future. He sent the details, along with the mailer's name, email address, list host, and IP, to a group to which we both belong. Along with private individuals like me, the group's members include folks who control access to ... well ... a big chunk of the email inboxes in the English-speaking world. 2/3 of them, at least.

Different incident...

A few years back, a gentleman sent me a promotional email he wanted my opinion on before he sent it to his list. I looked at it, and told him I liked it every bit as much as I had a few months earlier, when I wrote it for a client.

Think about this stuff, folks. You never know who's on the other end of that email. Letting your pride get in the way of doing what you should be doing is just asking for trouble you didn't need.

Anyone have other stories of folks who proved they shouldn't be allowed access to the global email system?

Paul

Dan C. Rinnert · 11-22-2009, 10:47 PM

I'm still upset you spammed me earlier today with an ad for Phentermin. No, I didn't want to browse your selection today. And, what did you mean I don't need a doctor? Can I self-prescribe?

Obviously, the sender wasn't really you, but it caught my attention when it had "Paul Myers" as the sender.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Anyone have other stories of folks who proved they shouldn't be allowed access to the global email system?

How about the one that threatened to call the police if I didn't stop sending her eMail? That was an opt-in list and I'm reasonably sure it was double opt-in. Plus, unsubscribe instructions were at the bottom of every message.

Paul Myers · 11-22-2009, 10:55 PM

Dan,

That one's new. I usually don't get spoofed as the source of spam any more. Probably just a coincidence.

I do tend to get a reaction the first time people see my name in their caller-ID, though. It's usually, "Now what did I do?"

Yeah. I love the ones who swear that no-one there could possibly have subscribed, despite the list being 100% confirmed opt-in. And what do they expect the police to do? Shoot my server?

Paul

Dan C. Rinnert · 11-22-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That one's new. I usually don't get spoofed as the source of spam any more. Probably just a coincidence.

It was your name only; not your eMail. I think this is the first (or one of the very few) where a sender name has actually matched that of someone I know, either online or offline. I get a lot that are close, but not usually spot on.

Quote:

Yeah. I love the ones who swear that no-one there could possibly have subscribed, despite the list being 100% confirmed opt-in. And what do they expect the police to do? Shoot my server?

I'm not sure, but I bet the 911 call would be interesting.

So would a police investigation. "So, did you click this unsubscribe link?"

"Huh?"

tommygunn · 11-22-2009, 11:03 PM

Hi Paul,

IMO. I don't think I could crucify someone for that response.

They could have been having a bad day, or misinterpreted something, or thinks they were someone else, or even be dealing with something where someone is somehow subscribing tons of people to their list and in turn getting them additional complaints.

I had to deal with a site that went down because I got a report of spam, someone was getting into a php form I had setup and I wasn't even using it anymore. But this site was making a daily income and the only way I realized is because I wasn't seeing that income for a week. Something like this, where all it took was one report to my host, to bring a site down without me knowing, I might be a little catty if I had to deal with this several times in a day or think someone is messing with me.

Granted, he should have responded with a bit more respect, just saying you never know what drives someone to act the way they do. So, I give them the benefit of the doubt, I would probably ask about the comment before reporting it.

Thanks!

Paul Myers · 11-22-2009, 11:07 PM

Here's one I had forgotten...

Years ago, I was pretty regularly targeted by spammers. This was back in the days when it was really hard to hide your source IP, and I rarely went a week without getting a few of them tossed off their ISPs or web hosts.

A woman who worked for Disney got a spam with my address in the From field, and sent me multiple (as in, dozens of) emails with multi-megabyte attachments. After the first few, the mailbox she sent them to started bouncing, because it was full.

The exchange was entertaining, and was almost enough by itself to get her email access revoked. Then she complained to her postmaster that I was mail-bombing her. When he pointed out the cause of the problem, she got nasty with him. As in, called him a liar, and became threatening and vulgar.

She called me from Florida later that day, screaming that I'd gotten her banned from Disney's email system, and that it was threatening her ability to do her job.

I have rarely laughed at someone who was hysterical. I enjoyed that one.

Paul

Jobe4212 · 11-22-2009, 11:19 PM

I think he was right to report him.
And the mailer's response confirms his character.

He knew very well that he bought a dirty list.
This is exactly how spam, a trillion dollar problem, persists.

Defending it is foolish.
If there weren't billions of discussions of email spam, if it were a trusted
medium, we'd all have far more opt ins, and far less spam.

No gray area.

tommygunn · 11-23-2009, 01:10 AM

I can't make those assumptions about his character or what he did. I don't know who it was or what was going on. It doesn't have to be a gray area when you have facts, and it looks like you do. It just seemed like trying to make it so someone doesn't have access to 2/3 of English speaking email for this reminded me of someone getting their hand cut off for stealing a piece of bread when their family was starving. But, like I said, I was only stating my opinion.

Paul Myers · 11-23-2009, 10:26 AM

tommygunn,

You won't find any assumptions about the guy in what I wrote. Just a pointer that being cavalier about how you email people in response to a problem can have unexpected consequences of unpredictable dimensions.

Quote:

this reminded me of someone getting their hand cut off for stealing a piece of bread when their family was starving.

No-one has done anything to this guy, physically. They're just trying to get him to stop spamming.

This is not punishment. It's self-defense. The thing that's funny is that he provoked someone whose friends are largely 800-pound gorillas.

Paul

JayXtreme · 11-23-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

someone whose friends are largely 800-pound gorillas.

That is one drinking session I would love to get involved with...

5 gorillas walked into a pub (translation: Bar), ordered double shots of Tequila.....

Peace

Jay

Rod Cortez · 11-23-2009, 10:45 AM

I'll never forget this one Paul. About 9 or so years ago I was still a real noob when it came to e-mail marketing. I remember sending you an offer not realizing that I was spamming you. You could have been really mean with me, but you weren't. You weren't touchy feely either, but you merely responded with a question asking me to show you the proof on where you had opted in to receive this e-mail from me.

As timing would have it, I was talking to the late Corey Rudl that very day and told him what happened. He could hardly hide his amusement and proceeded to tell me to e-mail you immediately and to explain what happened and that it was an honest mistake because I was really ignorant and new. He said that you would most likely understand and not kick my a$$ (digitally speaking). I did just that and your response was very gentlemanly. I learned some valuable lessons that day. We were all noobs at one point. Lord knows I've made my share of mistakes. > : o )

RoD

MemberWing · 11-23-2009, 11:21 AM

Writing complaints and clicking "unsubscribe" buttons is for pussies.
Some deal with the problem at it's roots

Gleb

CDarklock · 11-23-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod Cortez

About 9 or so years ago I was still a real noob when it came to e-mail marketing. I remember sending you an offer not realizing that I was spamming you.

Lest we forget...

Our very own Allen Says started his IM career as a spammer.

Paul Myers · 11-23-2009, 09:06 PM

Rod,

So many people were forging my address into subscription forms back then that I always asked first. Occasionally someone would send me the IP address of the forger, and I went after the real problem. The nastiness was reserved for people who sent me stupid emails like the one at the start of this thread.

I can imagine Corey chuckling over that, too. He knew exactly how I did things.

That story illustrates another problem with sending the kind of email the first guy did. Once you take that kind of stand, it's harder to step back and look at what you're doing. There's a real tendency to defend the original position, which leads to identifying with it.

If, as you did, you take the time to think about it and ask someone, you're less likely to get your ego involved, so you tend to make better decisions.

Paul

Rod Cortez · 11-23-2009, 09:28 PM

Paul,

I thought it was ok to e-mail you back then because I was a subscriber to your newsletter. I also e-mailed Frank Garon, Marlon Sanders, and a couple other guys. For the most part, they were all pretty cool about it after I explained what happened. At least now, I do far less dumb things. :P

RoD

santosm · 11-23-2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Anyone have other stories of folks who proved they shouldn't be allowed access to the global email system?

Paul

On the flip side, I had to once prove that I should be allowed on the global email system.

It was back in 2005. I went to check my email and to my surprise and total confusion I had an email from myself to myself.

so from myname@myemailaddress to myname@myemailaddress.

The worst part was that this email was also sent to about 50 other recipients from me, promoting some guitar site that I had never had any association with or ever even heard of!

Before the end of the day, I had a dozen emails from some of these recipients. The nicest on was "Why are you spamming me? Please stop" the Worst one was %#!@*& I am not %&*@ interested.

What a nightmare. I maintained my cyber composure and emailed a letter of complaint to the site owner. He apologized and said that he would investigate. To cover myself, I also asked him if I could direct any complaints I received from this to him and that he could please confirm that we had no absolutely no association with each other before this incident. Thankfully, he agreed.

I then replied to all complaints and I simply told them that I had no explanation to it, but that I had been spammed also. I also told them that I had been in contact with the site owner and he was happy to confirm this.

I never received an email back from these people except for one, who said he had indeed contacted the site owner. He then apologized.

Miraculously, no one reported me as a spammer!

To this day, I still don't know how it all happened????

Cheers Marianne

tommygunn · 11-23-2009, 10:44 PM

Sorry Paul,

I didn't see any assumptions made by you. I should have quoted Jobe in that response. I appreciate the post, it hits home with me at times, because I always have to remember to double think sending a nasty response, even when I feel there is something fishy going on I will stop myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

tommygunn,

You won't find any assumptions about the guy in what I wrote. Just a pointer that being cavalier about how you email people in response to a problem can have unexpected consequences of unpredictable dimensions.No-one has done anything to this guy, physically. They're just trying to get him to stop spamming.

This is not punishment. It's self-defense. The thing that's funny is that he provoked someone whose friends are largely 800-pound gorillas.

Paul

Paul Myers · 11-24-2009, 03:52 AM

Rod,

Quote:

At least now, I do far less dumb things. :P

Well, that makes one of us.

I do (mostly) different dumb things now, but at least as many as back then.

Paul

Steven Wagenheim · 11-24-2009, 08:17 AM

Paul, I'll be perfectly honest with you. I just don't open emails anymore
unless it's from somebody I absolutely know (and so far nobody has spoofed
any of those names) or it's an obvious scam like those "Your email box has
been disabled" emails that I feel people need to be warned about. Everyday
it seems like there is a new one of those, some of which are so clever that
a less experienced person could easily get taken in.

But other than that, I don't even know what's going on in the world of
email marketing anymore other than the newsletters that I put together.

The downside is that I don't get to see some of the newer marketing tactics
that people are always coming up with. But without knowing their response
and conversion rate, so what? For all I know, those emails could be totally
bombing out for them...which brings up another issue that I'll not get into
because I don't want to take this thread off topic...one of marketers
copying other marketers without even knowing if what they're doing is
working or not.

Anyway, thank goodness I haven't had to report anybody for serious spam
infractions because all that stuff just gets deleted anyway.

BrianMcLeod · 11-24-2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I do tend to get a reaction the first time people see my name in their caller-ID, though. It's usually, "Now what did I do?"

Ah, yes... "The Call From Erie..."

Infamous... Intimidating... SCARY...

And something I always enjoy greatly when it happens!

: )

Digital Darwinism... funny.

What's the flip side - Cyber Creationism?

"POOF! You're now 'Joe Schmoe', with a Twitter account and Facebook profile to match... lol

Best,

Brian

Steve Peters Benn · 11-24-2009, 09:06 AM

One fantastic guy has been sending out emails to his list (which I am on) from 'Jay Abraham'. He isn't Jay Abraham and that's crossing the line for me.

TinkBD · 11-24-2009, 09:27 AM

I have been enjoying (and snickering) over this this thread...

And it reminded me of the other side of the coin, equally amusing...

I am in an offline niche primarily composed of independent female retailers. While I don't know all of them personally, most of them are very familiar with me, have taken classes from me or purchased wholesale products from me....

A couple of times a year, one of them will unsubscribe from one of my lists and invariably will take the time to respond about WHY they are unsubscribing -- very politely and sometimes in great detail, I might add. ;-)

Tink

Steve Peters Benn · 11-24-2009, 10:42 AM

Hey Tink,

That's rather sweet - a great example of a niche that should be cared for, not abused as some IMers do. The odd thing is, you can only benefit from cultivating followers in a niche, I've never quite got the point of the churn and burn / SPAM approach.

TinkBD · 11-24-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Peters Benn

Hey Tink,

That's rather sweet - a great example of a niche that should be cared for, not abused as some IMers do. The odd thing is, you can only benefit from cultivating followers in a niche, I've never quite got the point of the churn and burn / SPAM approach.

It is sweet, isn't it?

I often wonder how many IMers would change their approach if they knew that they would be coming face to face with their Lists a couple of times a year.

I cherish it every time someone stops me in the aisle at the trade shows to thank me. ;-)

Tink

11-22-2009, 10:42 PM	#1
Paul Myers Zen Redneck War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Erie, PA Posts: 12,264 Blog Entries: 4 Thanks: 1,076 Thanked 8,840 Times in 2,345 Posts Social Networking	Digital Darwinism A friend of mine sent in a spam complaint for a list he knew he had not signed up for. He cc'd the mailer and their web host. The mailer replied with a note very much like this: "If you don't want any more mail from us, unsubscribe. Then get a life." Yeah. He sent that to a random stranger who had just told him they had not asked to be on the list he was mailing. I've gotten responses like this in the past from spam complaints about people in this group. I did not do what this fellow did, but I may in the future. He sent the details, along with the mailer's name, email address, list host, and IP, to a group to which we both belong. Along with private individuals like me, the group's members include folks who control access to ... well ... a big chunk of the email inboxes in the English-speaking world. 2/3 of them, at least. Different incident... A few years back, a gentleman sent me a promotional email he wanted my opinion on before he sent it to his list. I looked at it, and told him I liked it every bit as much as I had a few months earlier, when I wrote it for a client. Think about this stuff, folks. You never know who's on the other end of that email. Letting your pride get in the way of doing what you should be doing is just asking for trouble you didn't need. Anyone have other stories of folks who proved they shouldn't be allowed access to the global email system? Paul
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11-22-2009, 10:55 PM	#3
Paul Myers Zen Redneck War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Erie, PA Posts: 12,264 Blog Entries: 4 Thanks: 1,076 Thanked 8,840 Times in 2,345 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism Dan, That one's new. I usually don't get spoofed as the source of spam any more. Probably just a coincidence. I do tend to get a reaction the first time people see my name in their caller-ID, though. It's usually, "Now what did I do?" Yeah. I love the ones who swear that no-one there could possibly have subscribed, despite the list being 100% confirmed opt-in. And what do they expect the police to do? Shoot my server? Paul
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11-22-2009, 11:03 PM	#5
tommygunn HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 210 Thanks: 7 Thanked 101 Times in 20 Posts	Re: Digital Darwinism Hi Paul, IMO. I don't think I could crucify someone for that response. They could have been having a bad day, or misinterpreted something, or thinks they were someone else, or even be dealing with something where someone is somehow subscribing tons of people to their list and in turn getting them additional complaints. I had to deal with a site that went down because I got a report of spam, someone was getting into a php form I had setup and I wasn't even using it anymore. But this site was making a daily income and the only way I realized is because I wasn't seeing that income for a week. Something like this, where all it took was one report to my host, to bring a site down without me knowing, I might be a little catty if I had to deal with this several times in a day or think someone is messing with me. Granted, he should have responded with a bit more respect, just saying you never know what drives someone to act the way they do. So, I give them the benefit of the doubt, I would probably ask about the comment before reporting it. Thanks!

11-22-2009, 11:07 PM	#6
Paul Myers Zen Redneck War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Erie, PA Posts: 12,264 Blog Entries: 4 Thanks: 1,076 Thanked 8,840 Times in 2,345 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism Here's one I had forgotten... Years ago, I was pretty regularly targeted by spammers. This was back in the days when it was really hard to hide your source IP, and I rarely went a week without getting a few of them tossed off their ISPs or web hosts. A woman who worked for Disney got a spam with my address in the From field, and sent me multiple (as in, dozens of) emails with multi-megabyte attachments. After the first few, the mailbox she sent them to started bouncing, because it was full. The exchange was entertaining, and was almost enough by itself to get her email access revoked. Then she complained to her postmaster that I was mail-bombing her. When he pointed out the cause of the problem, she got nasty with him. As in, called him a liar, and became threatening and vulgar. She called me from Florida later that day, screaming that I'd gotten her banned from Disney's email system, and that it was threatening her ability to do her job. I have rarely laughed at someone who was hysterical. I enjoyed that one. Paul
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11-22-2009, 11:19 PM	#7
Jobe4212 Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Boston, USA Posts: 976 Thanks: 10 Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism I think he was right to report him. And the mailer's response confirms his character. He knew very well that he bought a dirty list. This is exactly how spam, a trillion dollar problem, persists. Defending it is foolish. If there weren't billions of discussions of email spam, if it were a trusted medium, we'd all have far more opt ins, and far less spam. No gray area.
	Good Health to You, Ed

11-23-2009, 01:10 AM	#8
tommygunn HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 210 Thanks: 7 Thanked 101 Times in 20 Posts	Re: Digital Darwinism I can't make those assumptions about his character or what he did. I don't know who it was or what was going on. It doesn't have to be a gray area when you have facts, and it looks like you do. It just seemed like trying to make it so someone doesn't have access to 2/3 of English speaking email for this reminded me of someone getting their hand cut off for stealing a piece of bread when their family was starving. But, like I said, I was only stating my opinion.

11-23-2009, 10:45 AM	#11
Rod Cortez Traffic Viagra War Room Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Tustin, CA (I'm actually in your living room!). Posts: 4,733 Thanks: 914 Thanked 1,419 Times in 550 Posts	Re: Digital Darwinism I'll never forget this one Paul. About 9 or so years ago I was still a real noob when it came to e-mail marketing. I remember sending you an offer not realizing that I was spamming you. You could have been really mean with me, but you weren't. You weren't touchy feely either, but you merely responded with a question asking me to show you the proof on where you had opted in to receive this e-mail from me. As timing would have it, I was talking to the late Corey Rudl that very day and told him what happened. He could hardly hide his amusement and proceeded to tell me to e-mail you immediately and to explain what happened and that it was an honest mistake because I was really ignorant and new. He said that you would most likely understand and not kick my a$$ (digitally speaking). I did just that and your response was very gentlemanly. I learned some valuable lessons that day. We were all noobs at one point. Lord knows I've made my share of mistakes. > : o ) RoD
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11-23-2009, 11:21 AM	#12
MemberWing Gleb War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 845 Thanks: 10 Thanked 104 Times in 85 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: Digital Darwinism Writing complaints and clicking "unsubscribe" buttons is for pussies. Some deal with the problem at it's roots Gleb
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11-23-2009, 09:06 PM	#14
Paul Myers Zen Redneck War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Erie, PA Posts: 12,264 Blog Entries: 4 Thanks: 1,076 Thanked 8,840 Times in 2,345 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism Rod, So many people were forging my address into subscription forms back then that I always asked first. Occasionally someone would send me the IP address of the forger, and I went after the real problem. The nastiness was reserved for people who sent me stupid emails like the one at the start of this thread. I can imagine Corey chuckling over that, too. He knew exactly how I did things. That story illustrates another problem with sending the kind of email the first guy did. Once you take that kind of stand, it's harder to step back and look at what you're doing. There's a real tendency to defend the original position, which leads to identifying with it. If, as you did, you take the time to think about it and ask someone, you're less likely to get your ego involved, so you tend to make better decisions. Paul
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11-23-2009, 09:28 PM	#15
Rod Cortez Traffic Viagra War Room Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Tustin, CA (I'm actually in your living room!). Posts: 4,733 Thanks: 914 Thanked 1,419 Times in 550 Posts	Re: Digital Darwinism Paul, I thought it was ok to e-mail you back then because I was a subscriber to your newsletter. I also e-mailed Frank Garon, Marlon Sanders, and a couple other guys. For the most part, they were all pretty cool about it after I explained what happened. At least now, I do far less dumb things. :P RoD
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11-24-2009, 08:17 AM	#19
Steven Wagenheim Content & Copywriting Wiz War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Roselle, NJ, USA Posts: 16,394 Blog Entries: 11 Thanks: 1,531 Thanked 6,192 Times in 2,288 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism Paul, I'll be perfectly honest with you. I just don't open emails anymore unless it's from somebody I absolutely know (and so far nobody has spoofed any of those names) or it's an obvious scam like those "Your email box has been disabled" emails that I feel people need to be warned about. Everyday it seems like there is a new one of those, some of which are so clever that a less experienced person could easily get taken in. But other than that, I don't even know what's going on in the world of email marketing anymore other than the newsletters that I put together. The downside is that I don't get to see some of the newer marketing tactics that people are always coming up with. But without knowing their response and conversion rate, so what? For all I know, those emails could be totally bombing out for them...which brings up another issue that I'll not get into because I don't want to take this thread off topic...one of marketers copying other marketers without even knowing if what they're doing is working or not. Anyway, thank goodness I haven't had to report anybody for serious spam infractions because all that stuff just gets deleted anyway.
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11-24-2009, 09:06 AM	#21
Steve Peters Benn Senior Warrior Member War Room Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Leeds, United Kingdom. Posts: 3,519 Thanks: 598 Thanked 334 Times in 165 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism One fantastic guy has been sending out emails to his list (which I am on) from 'Jay Abraham'. He isn't Jay Abraham and that's crossing the line for me.

11-24-2009, 09:27 AM	#22
TinkBD With a Mastiff at my feet War Room Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Kentucky,USA. Posts: 904 Thanks: 1,144 Thanked 188 Times in 108 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism I have been enjoying (and snickering) over this this thread... And it reminded me of the other side of the coin, equally amusing... I am in an offline niche primarily composed of independent female retailers. While I don't know all of them personally, most of them are very familiar with me, have taken classes from me or purchased wholesale products from me.... A couple of times a year, one of them will unsubscribe from one of my lists and invariably will take the time to respond about WHY they are unsubscribing -- very politely and sometimes in great detail, I might add. ;-) Tink
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11-24-2009, 10:42 AM	#23
Steve Peters Benn Senior Warrior Member War Room Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Leeds, United Kingdom. Posts: 3,519 Thanks: 598 Thanked 334 Times in 165 Posts Social Networking	Re: Digital Darwinism Hey Tink, That's rather sweet - a great example of a niche that should be cared for, not abused as some IMers do. The odd thing is, you can only benefit from cultivating followers in a niche, I've never quite got the point of the churn and burn / SPAM approach.