Be nice to me, I don't know what HTML is

14 years ago

It's easy to forget that at one time we were clueless about a lot of things.

None of us are born with knowledge. Everything is learned...even our eating
habits.

Too many marketers, once they become all big and successful, forget where
they came from and get all full of themselves. It's an easy trap to fall in and
even I, from time to time, get too big for my britches and have to remind
myself what a failure I was when I first started.

So thanks for the reminder Scott.

It's something we should all try to remember the next time somebody asks
if article marketing still works.

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Neromancer

14 years ago

Thank you for this - in fact I am working on a program based on how a lot of the new peeps feel about marketing and how they can get started quick in a realistic business setting; there is this problem sometimes in the warrior forum that a lot of the new people feel very overwhelmed; they need help because this place is so unlike many of the other so called help sources; the warrior forum is the real deal and properly cultivated this is the Mecca we have all been looking for

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twright

14 years ago

Scott, Agreed some of us are technical and when talking to a client they are not UP on internet Technology all of the time.

Telling a client in depth about how something works can be confusing and lead to many questions you in the end did not intend to answer.. or worse showing the client how to do it for free

I guess the ole sayng.. Never Assume because it makes a ... out of you and me.

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Adam Nolan

14 years ago

Wait, is this a friendly reminder or are you actually asking about HTML? Haha either way that's cool.

I'm guessing by you're experience that you are just reminding us to be nice... but in the off chance that you're not. The wonderful thing about web design today is that you don't need to know html to put together a beautiful, functional website.

I work on a mac so I know there are a ton of great programs that do it for you there... but i'm sure there is an equivalent on PC. I use Rapid Weaver and iWeb.

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Amir.S

14 years ago

LOL like Maverick said, dont know if you want us to be nice or you just dont know about HTML.

Try nvu its free and you dont need to know any html, it does all the coding for you in the background

Or you can get 1 month of dreamweaver for free it's the industry standard, again it does the coding for you in the background.

If you still want to learn html then go to w3schools dot com.

Hope that helps.

Amir.S

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Kay King

14 years ago

Being nice is fine - but being helpful is better. If someone is posting (and some are) one impossibly simplistic question after another here, they need to be exposed to "let me google that for you" and to replies telling them how to use search functions, etc.

Some of them take that advice in a bad way - but if you can't look up basic information that is widely available online, how do you expect to be able to run any business?

It's the first lesson some marketers have in self-reliance. If you look up the info and learn what you can - and then have a question about it....you'll end up with better help on any forum.

kay

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Dan C. Rinnert

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Being nice is fine - but being helpful is better. If someone is posting (and some are) one impossibly simplistic question after another here, they need to be exposed to "let me google that for you" and to replies telling them how to use search functions, etc.

Some of them take that advice in a bad way - but if you can't look up basic information that is widely available online, how do you expect to be able to run any business?

You have to be careful about suggesting using Google... Now, if you just suggest it to those that clearly show they are not trying to find the information themselves, as you've described, that's one thing.

But, situations should be avoided where the standard reply to any "simple" question becomes "let me Google that for you."

One of the reasons I left a previous marketing forum I was on is for that reason.

Here is what I would do. I would search Google. I would try other search engines. If I came up empty-handed or more confused than I started, then I would ask a question. Often, an answer from a real person can be tremendously more helpful than digging through page after page of search results. On top of that, if you've been searching for a while, you can develop search blindness and overlook good results. So, if you're looking for a good source for information on X, it's easy to overlook the one place that might be good, whereas if you ask, people will chime in and say "site A is the best place to learn."

So, anyway, you might search and search and search for something and not find a quality result. So, then you go to your dependable marketing forum and ask for some help. And then the response you get is "let me Google that for you."

Do you have any idea how frustrating that is?

If the boilerplate response to questions becomes "let me Google that for you," there is little point to having a forum at all, you know? Just put up a screen that says "GOOGLE IT!" and close down the forum.

When I came here, people were actually helpful. And, I'd hate to see that change for new people coming in.

Another thing to remember is that new people may not know the proper terminology, and they may search in vain for the wrong things, which may lead to them becoming more confused, especially if they used a word that meant something completely different than what they thought it meant. So, even if they search on the search engines, they may be getting themselves more and more confused, whereas asking a simple question, or series of simple questions, on a forum can lead them to better results.

No doubt, there are those that do need to be prodded to search for things, whether here or in the search engines, before asking a series of "simple" questions, but you also have to keep in mind that other people are reading too. And replies help form their impression of the forum.

Let's say John Doe asks a bunch of simple questions. The regulars here get fed up with him, and just use the boilerplate "let me Google that for you" reply with him.

Now, Joe Smith comes to the forum, sees these questions to which he also would like to know the answers and reads those posts. What impression do you think he will have of the forum when everyone is responding with "let me Google that for you"? He might just think, well, this forum is pointless. And then he's gone.

So, I think we need to be careful about how those "simple" questions are treated, because there are people behind those questions and there are people that didn't ask the questions that need those answers.

I would just hate to see this descend into a "let me Google that for you" forum that becomes more a source of frustration than a source of information.

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JohnMcCabe 14 years ago

Dan has a good point. There's also the "don't know what you don't know" factor to consider.

If a question would take too much space to answer in a helpful manner in a forum post, I'll sometimes suggest a search. But I also try to include a link to a SERP page as an example of what to look for, one which has helpful entries.

Kind of like "let me Google that for you" Pro...

Scott, thanks for a good reminder. This also applies to language skills.

Maybe someone posts in broken English, or with an odd idiom. I sometimes have to remind myself that their English is better than my (whatever).

About the only other language I can do anything with is Spanish, and that only enough to get drunk, get fed or get punched in the mouth...
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milan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

But, situations should be avoided where the standard reply to any "simple" question becomes "let me Google that for you."

It's not about how "simple" the question is. "let me Google that for you" is not an answer which fits every question, but perfectly fits some. For example, when somebody asks a programming question on this marketing forum, they get a bunch of opinions. No doubt people are trying to help, but their opinions are not relevant, because they don't know much about programming. The chances are Google top 10 results have more authority on programming/gardening etc. than opinions on a marketing forum.

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

Now, Joe Smith comes to the forum, sees these questions to which he also would like to know the answers and reads those posts. What impression do you think he will have of the forum when everyone is responding with "let me Google that for you"? He might just think, well, this forum is pointless. And then he's gone.

The main point is did the answer help him or not! If the answer solves his problem why would it be wrong. "Let me Google that for you" can be arrogant and pointless, but can also be very helpful. Atomic energy can be used for a bomb, and can be used to produce electricity.

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Susanna Dodd

14 years ago

Thanks for this thread. I too am not knowledgeable in a lot of IM techniques and terminology. My problem though is I might know what something is but can't explain it well to someone who might need to know. I look at these forums and any other places I can get IM information from like school, and we all are the students and the professors. except we are not getting a degree.

I'm sure you meant this thread as a friendly reminder too. So I will treat this as a confessing thread too. Example, I don't know what CPA is (other than it being an accountant, LOL). I'm sure there are other things, but can't think of them right now. I would have to write them down and research them.

Thanks

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milan

14 years ago

I've heard on other places this forum has a reputation of not being nice to newbies...

I just hope you don't include the genuine suggestions to search on Google and search the forum as not newbie friendly. Those suggestions are excellent advice for some questions!

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michael_nguyen

14 years ago

^ If anything, I think WF is one of the, if not the most helpful. You should try "PD". I got flamed for just doing a "journey thread". Those were the days...

The thing is, we're very happy to answer questions that are not so obvoius and info thats "hard" to find but when someone comes here and ask "What is socialbookmarking" and "what is that backlink". You guys need to take some initiative!

This just not applies to IM but everything we do in life.

In my MSc class I have these students that ask "How do you do this, how do you do that" and my reply is:

"Did you read the tutorial notes?"

Very similar to wanting to get rich overnight, not prepared to put in the effort!

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grangonzo

14 years ago

Just go and learn some then...

HTML is very easy and fast to learn.
In just a week you can make grat progress!

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John Romaine

14 years ago

Ahhh yes, HTML.

I remember breaking countless mice and keyboards learning it back in 1998.

Thanks

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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

HTML stands for:

Hotties That Make.........uh, nevermind.

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Ok.........It stands for Hyper Text Markup Language and it's the language that people use to build websites (among other things). Like if you type the word "Jessica" but you want it to be bolded like so "Jessica" you would need to give the command via HTML tags so that the browswer knows you want it bolded. So you would use the bold tags <b></b> like this:

<b>Jessica</b>

There's a tons of things you can do with HTML such as formatting, inserting pictures, etc. and a ton of things you cannot do. Which brings along a host of other things like Java, DHTML, and a crap load of stuff I don't know about since I'm no web designer. But I do know basic HTML.

RoD "Coffee-Freaking-Rules!" CorteZ

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seasoned

14 years ago

HEY, ever see the TBS commercials? It used to stand for Turner Broadcasting Systems, but NOW some try to come up with STUPID originations to it. Rods message just got me to think about that.

Today, I heard the tail end of a broadcast, they ridiculed a woman and it seems it was because, after crashing someplace, she figured that her cordless telephone would double as a cell phone, and tried to use it to call for help.

It IS against the law for such devices to work so far. Frankly, that so many can work 3000 feet away is something of a legislative miracle. And such limits ARE clearly laid out in the specs, and there IS the obvious limit of the number of distinctly different signals you are likely to have etc.... I don't think I EVER thought you could just take them away and use them, but I COULD see some REAL old person thinking it is obviously possible. Heck, my cordless phone works almost to the next block!

So who is to say? HEY, some "coworker" kept me tied up for an hour today trying to tell ME something was happening, and wondering why, when I told him about it a week ago, and why. If people don't keep ME tied up with such things, or creating such problems, I'll try to stay off their case.

Steve

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Mr. Enthusiastic

14 years ago

Hi Scott, I can help.

Everyone needs to start somewhere and everyone old enough to vote today had a first time to learn about the Web. So today is your day to get the basics in context.

Computers do what they are told. To tell them what to do, you need to have a language a computer understands.

A researcher named Tim Berners-Lee wanted to use computer networks to share research documents. He figured that it would be nice for the documents to be able to include links to other documents, pictures, basic formatting, etc. He decided how he wanted to add these contents to make the texts more than a plain text, but to also include formatting and hyperlinks to other documents.

Using techniques that are common in computer programming, he created a series of codes that could be typed in with the text of a document, and interpreted by a computer program to include the images, links, and formatting. He called this the HyperText Markup Language, HTML for short.

Now that handles a single document, but how does one computer share a document with another computer? For this communication, he needed to have standardized rules - a protocol - to transfer these documents from one computer to another. He called his communication protocol the HyperText Transfer Protocol, HTTP for short.

A program to show the user an HTML document, and follow links to other documents using HTTP, is a web browser. The browser is the user interface, but there also needs to be a program that is the repository handling HTTP requests over the network and delivering whichever documents are stored on a particular computer. This is a web server. So he created the first web browser and server and published all the specifications so other people could write their own web browser.

He felt that someone else was probably working on the same ideas at the same time, and who knows, their ideas might be better. So he made all the specifications open-ended in case people preferred to use that other system he felt sure was likely in the works.

Of course the combination of text, formatting, links, easy to use browsers and easy to understand technical standards made the Web a runaway smash hit of the millenium.

Today the same visionary's full-time job is further developing these standards, working for a nonprofit association, the World Wide Web Consortium (w3.org). One of the problems in the Web is that different vendors added their own custom additions to HTML and HTTP, making web sites inconsistent depending which software you use. The w3.org tries to improve published, open standards to prevent this fragmentation from getting worse.

Now for someone designing web software, it's important to understand the full range of technical specs, including HTTP, XML, and JavaScript. For a graphic designer, HTML and CSS are most important and the rest can be left to the engineers.

My favorite HTML coding tutorial is at W3Schools Online Web Tutorials. As others mentioned, if you do a web search for "HTML tutorial" you'll find several to choose from.

With a good tutorial you can expect to master the fundamentals of HTML and CSS within a few days to a couple of weeks. With an editing program, you can either point & click or edit the code and learn more.

Ask me here or by private message if you need more help getting started.

Chris

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Kurt

14 years ago

To take Mr E's comments a little further: "hyper text" simply means "clickable links", that when clicked would take you to different docucments on the "web" to get more info. The goal was to connect various, related documents.

I don't believe images were part of the original html.

http = hyper text transfer protocol - Simply the rules for getting the html from the web server to a browser/user computer.

So IMO, if anyone complains about linking to them, they shouldn't be using html or the web, as it's true purpose is to use links, aka "hyper text".

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Mr. Enthusiastic

14 years ago

Thanks for the clarifications, Kurt. I first used a web browser (Viola) around '92 or '93 and it had inline images by then. I remember the circumstances but would need to strain my brain to narrow down the time limit more precisely. Looking back through the archives at T.B-L's first posts, I agree that I don't see a way to include inline images. So that must have been one of the developments within the first year or two of the Web. It's definitely there in the '93 spec.

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Kay King

14 years ago

Sometimes it amazes me how hard people will work to argue.

My suggestion stands - if one person is asking numerous very simple and basic questions....you do not do them any favors by writing out the answers unless you plan to be available every time they have a basic question.

You teach them to "fish" by showing them how to find the info themselves. You don't do it always - or for every question - but you do it for some obvious questions. You help people by trying to give what they need - even if that means making THEM do some work to get the info.

Many of the tutorials that can be found online are much better and more accurate than the spate of "I think" and "I heard" replies that we often see and posters arguing with each other on how to answer the simplest questions.

kay

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Mr. Enthusiastic

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

My suggestion stands - if one person is asking numerous very simple and basic questions....you do not do them any favors by writing out the answers unless you plan to be available every time they have a basic question....

Many of the tutorials that can be found online are much better and more accurate than the spate of "I think" and "I heard" replies that we often see and posters arguing with each other on how to answer the simplest questions.

Four questions about this, Kay:

Do you think that the tutorial I linked to is appropriate for people who are new to HTML, as Scott is?

I don't think I promised to do anyone's homework. If I promised to always be available to help Scott with his html, I need to take that back. Is there a place where I made that promise?

Do you think there's something inaccurate about the introduction I provided?

Where is there a more user-friendly first step to understanding html than what I provided, from someone who's been working with it longer?

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Istvan Horvath 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Enthusiastic

Do you think that the tutorial I linked to is appropriate for people who are new to HTML, as Scott is?

<cough>
Reading carefully the OP is also a rare "skill" in most forums

Scott was kind of paraphrasing a newbie's post. And reminding us that we all were beginners at certain point in time...

With a few thousand posts and 3 years spent in this forum - I doubt he wouldn't know what HTML is.

P.S. I enjoyed your short history of the HTML, even if I knew the facts
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- Mr. Enthusiastic 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath
  
  Scott was kind of paraphrasing a newbie's post. And reminding us that we all were beginners at certain point in time...
  
  Ah, I didn't catch that he was writing on behalf of others who are new. Thanks for clarifying.
  
  Thanks
  
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Floyd Fisher

14 years ago

Ok, Scott. Time to name names.

Who has been bullying you about this?

Maybe it's time for me to do some of this to them:

http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:u...tv.com:1621252

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Rhoody

Banned 14 years ago

Actually John spoke out of my heart, not only for HTML, I did have this issue several times (also in real life) and was just scared to ask certain things due to reactions by people i could observed beforehand.

I was a lurker here and just decided today to join as it appears to me that on this great Forum are less "I know all" persons.

cheers