Unused little customer research trick

14 years ago

You'll have to explain to me how to read those numbers in your example, they don't make sense to me. How can a group be 154% male?

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Scott Ames 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

You'll have to explain to me how to read those numbers in your example, they don't make sense to me. How can a group be 154% male?

Steroids would be my guess.
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Frank Donovan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ProductCreator

I think it's a copy and paste error. If you visit the link, you get the full stats.

No, the numbers look strange because the site uses 100% as an average. That particular example is also pretty useless as the site being quoted is actually Plenty Of Fish, the dating site, and is based on their data. You have to figure that not many members are going to list the term "money making" very high on their interests :rolleyes:

Frank

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R Hagel

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

Perhaps others could tell me if they spend a lot of time researching there 'customer avatar' and what tools they use.

My favorite way to research my customers and better understand them is to become a part of the target market. Hang out with them. Do what they do to understand the limitations and strengths of the solutions they're using. Talk to them.

Yes, looking at data is useful. But the way to really understand a person's emotional hot buttons, hopes, fears and desires is to become the Jane Goodall of marketing and live among your market for a while to study 'em up close.

Cheers,
Becky

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cindybidar

14 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

But the way to really understand a person's emotional hot buttons, hopes, fears and desires is to become the Jane Goodall of marketing and live among your market for a while to study 'em up close.

Cheers,
Becky

This is fantastic! I see a sticky note above my desk in the very near future.

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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

Like Becky, I prefer to meet them where they live. Demographic information is fine as far as checking whether a given group has the wherewithal to purchase a product and enough members to be worth pursuing. That's a starting point.

I like to lurk in forums and see what they talk about and how. I'll look at the magazines they read to see which topics seem to be evergreen. I'll look at the reviews on Amazon, looking for what trips their trigger and what pushes the wrong buttons. All this time, I'm building my own little phrase book like I would if I were trying to learn a foreign language.

As for the Plenty of Fish site, there's a bug somewhere in their script. No matter what you put in the search box, you get percentages over 100%. If you put in a term like 'fishing' as an interest, how can more than 100% of a given demographic group indicate that as an interest? If I'm not reading that properly, they need to explain better what I'm seeing.

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Frank Donovan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

If you put in a term like 'fishing' as an interest, how can more than 100% of a given demographic group indicate that as an interest?

John, given the name of the site, I think the fish get a vote too.

Frank

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Slow down and read the post. I said that particular example was useless.

You'd get a very different return from a database of Warrior members, for instance.

Sorry Frank, read over it quickly

And of course, always take into consideration the source.

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Not sure why you're assuming none of us do customer research.

This is something I've spoken to quite a few people about, so there's definitely people talking about it - maybe you should widen your circle of friends

Andy, where did I assume nobody did customer research? And no need for the comment at the end?

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

I like to lurk in forums and see what they talk about and how. I'll look at the magazines they read to see which topics seem to be evergreen. I'll look at the reviews on Amazon, looking for what trips their trigger and what pushes the wrong buttons. All this time, I'm building my own little phrase book like I would if I were trying to learn a foreign language.

This is just what I was looking for (and is also mentioned by Eben)

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Frank Donovan 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

Sorry Frank, read over it quickly
And of course, always take into consideration the source.

Steve, no problem. If you understand the composition of the database, it's certainly a useful resource to add to any marketer's research tools. Good share.

Frank
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Andyhenry 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

Andy, where did I assume nobody did customer research? And no need for the comment at the end?

Perhaps I read too much into the tone (it seemed at first read all 'Eban Pagen this, and Eban Pagen that, and "I haven't seen anyone else...." My bad.

The comment at the end was a joke.... That's the problem with posts -you can mind-read all the wrong things.

Also, you haven't been a member here that long so you probably don't know my sense of humour, so - err, it's your fault I said the wrong thing
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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ProductCreator

It's not a bug. 100% is an average. If it's less or more than 100% then it shows whether this interest group is under or over-represented in that particular category, compared to the overall average across all interest groups.

Okay, let's see if I'm getting this right...

I went to the site in the OP, and entered one of their suggested terms - music - and got the following:
Results for: "Music"

GENDER:
Male: 79.58% (expected is 100%) Female: 129.15% (expected is 100%)
What I should be reading is that among males, music is indicated as an interest ~20% less often than expected, while among females music is indicated ~30% more often than expected.

Have I got it right? Close?

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Nonny

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

I went to the site in the OP, and entered one of their suggested terms - music - and got the following:
Results for: "Music"

GENDER:
Male: 79.58% (expected is 100%) Female: 129.15% (expected is 100%)
What I should be reading is that among males, music is indicated as an interest ~20% less often than expected, while among females music is indicated ~30% more often than expected.

If that's what those stats mean, then they are pretty much useless without knowing what the expected interest level was.

For example, if it was expected that 90% of men would be interested in music, but only 71.6% indicated that interest, then you would get your 79.58% number for men.

If it was expected that 40% of women would be interested in music, but really 51.66% of women indicated that interest, then you would get your 129.15% number for women.

But overall, a significantly higher percentage of men are interested in music than women (71.6% vs. 51.6%).

If the original expectations were different the interpretation of the numbers would be totally different.

It puzzles me why PoF isn't giving a the real demographic breakdown for the different terms.

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Yeah, it uses 100% as average!

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

That particular example is also pretty useless as the site being quoted is actually Plenty Of Fish, the dating site, and is based on their data.

How can you say this data is useless, that is
ridiculous. This data is up to date, 100% real
and the userbase is in the millions.

"money making" was just a quick example. The
list of interests you can use is endless. Me and
others always use this resource for research.

What sites do you use Frank?

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Frank Donovan 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

How can you say this data is useless, that is
ridiculous. This data is up to date, 100% real
and the userbase is in the millions.

Slow down and read the post. I said that particular example was useless.

With any set of data you have to understand the source. The Plenty Of Fish database might be useful to research if you had a product or service likely to appeal to that target market. But just entering a random term and extrapolating from that any general trend isn't going to work. You'd get a very different return from a database of Warrior members, for instance.

Frank
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Andyhenry

14 years ago

Steve,

Not sure why you're assuming none of us do customer research.

One of the things I always teach my clients is to take a holistic approach to their marketing and fully understand their target market.

It's pretty important and can make a massive difference in your approach to helping them and what products you can sell.

For example - if I was targeting house buyers, I'd also be looking at the reasons people buy a house (job promotion, redundancy, inheritance etc.) and what activities are directly related to buying and selling a house (DIY, electrical/plumbing certification etc.) to fully get into their mindset and all of the things they'll want/need help with.

If you miss out this type of research you would end up just trying to sell loans/mortgages etc.

This is something I've spoken to quite a few people about, so there's definitely people talking about it - maybe you should widen your circle of friends

Andy

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Scott Ames

14 years ago

How many "takeaways" can we get from such data? By takeaway I mean something useful that we can apply. I am wondering how others think and use the data.

Mostly male: Our offers should be slanted more toward the male population. I've often wondered what to do if its a 50 / 50 split. What would you do? As it stands, would you totally ignore the females at 29%?

Income: $50,001 - $75,000 How does that help me? Would the person in the $35,001 - $50,000 range be as likely to buy my stuff as well?

Thin/ Overweight - Almost a split but most seem Average or Athletic. What do I do with this?

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

Mostly male: Our offers should be slanted more toward the male population. I've often wondered what to do if its a 50 / 50 split. What would you do? As it stands, would you totally ignore the females at 29%?

Income: $50,001 - $75,000 How does that help me? Would the person in the $35,001 - $50,000 range be as likely to buy my stuff as well?

Thin/ Overweight - Almost a split but most seem Average or Athletic. What do I do with this?

It's a tough one! If it's 50:50 I have no idea! Perhaps try and consider which sex is more likely to purchase something online :confused: If they have more money perhaps you could consider a higher price point

These factors are different for every niche I guess! What does everyone else think about the above? Is it useful data that could help you improve conversion by at least 1%..

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R Hagel

14 years ago

Scott's questions illustrate why the data is just a starting point, but you really need to eavesdrop on or become a part of the target market to really understand the market.

For example -- what do the income levels mean for those selling to online marketers?

A high income might mean folks can afford to buy your stuff. Does that mean they'll buy more than any other group?

Not necessarily...

It could be that the lower income folks are REALLY motivated to buy whatever it is you're selling. After all, they're the ones who really want or need to make more money. And perhaps their desperation will get them putting your products on their credit cards, no matter what the cost.

**

Point is, numbers are numbers. In order to really understand what these numbers mean to your target market, you need to understand that target market. And again, that means putting the charts away and actually talking and listing to the people in your niche.

Cheers,
Becky

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Very true but not many of us are in a position
to do that as I'm sure you can understand

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R Hagel 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

Very true but not many of us are in a position
to do that as I'm sure you can understand

Why not?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any niches that you can't eavesdrop on or join in order to learn more.

The Internet makes it easy. As John mentioned, you can join niche forums, read reviews, become part of the discussions on niche blogs, find your niche on social networks, etc. Lots of interaction opportunities are available to everyone.

In many cases, you can join these groups offline, too. For example:

--Selling to golfers? Time to hit the links and the golf outfitting shops.

--Selling to bodybuilders? Get thee to a BB's gym. And to bodybuilding competitions. And to stores selling BB equipment.

-- Selling to rockhounders? Join the rockhounding groups in your area. Go on their trips. Talk to the members.

Not only can you talk to the actual niche members, but you can also talk to people who serve that niche. They may have some insights for you.

For example, if you want to drop into the bodybuilding market, go talk to someone at a supplement/vitamin shop to find out what types of protein, creatine, and other supplements are selling.

You don't have to be "snoopy" or intrusive -- just a casual talk will reveal a lot about the owner's customers. He/she might say something like, "A lot of my customers {whatever, whatever here}." That kind of stuff is priceless, especially when you see patterns.

Side note: You can even start building relationships with these other business owners so that you can do future JVs with them.

And so on.

Cheers,
Becky

Bottom line: If you can't "reach" into a market to study it, how will you ever "reach" in far enough to market to it?
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- Steve Ranger 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by R Hagel
  
  Why not?
  
  Because a lot of my time is spent in foreign counties
  where they don't speak English. I usually target US
  and UK markets.... how do I eavesdrop on these?
  
  I know how to do research if I'm back in the UK, I
  imagine most of us do! And for the record I know
  about niche forums etc etc etc!
  
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Brian Tayler

14 years ago

Sorry but nothing can replace human interpretation. Meaning, physically getting involved with the market and customers. There is no computer program or automation process that can replace that.

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

Sorry but nothing can replace human interpretation. Meaning, physically getting involved with the market and customers. There is no computer program or automation process that can replace that.

Do you mean interaction ?

Nobody said you can replace human interaction?

That is the best way to get inside someones
mind and find out what triggers them buying s
something.

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digigo

14 years ago

demo data is good but just by looking at them won't give me much insight of customer behavior... those data may be very useful in larger scale like you are selling to the billions and have to decide where your next big marketing spending should be directed.. for smaller scale operation.. I would prefer interacting with customers as early as possible and optimize the sales pitch along the way..

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DogScout

14 years ago

I agree, building 'avatars' of the largest segments of your client base is essential to target content and sales copy correctly. It is done by all the good large corporations and all the best sales copywriters and has served them well. Every good book on writing sales copy includes a chapter on this exact same thing.

Both demographic info AND interacting with them will give you the best raw data to create an accurate avatar 'herd'. (You cannot usually just make one, there is generally 3-7 needed to cover 75% or more of any given niche.) Just one or the other can easily lead you in a wrong direction. Demographic info is only so accurate and when interacting, you can only inter-act with the avatar that is social in nature.

The take away is this now really helps you understand your customer base's emotional needs. Sell to their emotions, justify by logic.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Steve Ranger,

It is DUMB to assume nobody has done this sort of thing. You DID say "One tool that I have been using that I've seen nobody else use is:
Relevant Demographic Targetted Advertising.", AND you named the thread "Unused little customer research trick"! HECK, One project I was on even took this a step farther! And can people PLEASE stop trying to change the language!?!?!?

av⋅a⋅tar /ˈævəˌtɑr, ˌævəˈtɑr/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [av-uh-tahr, av-uh-tahr] Show IPA
Use avatar in a Sentence
See web results for avatar
See images of avatar
-noun 1. Hindu Mythology. the descent of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape; the incarnation of a god.
2. an embodiment or personification, as of a principle, attitude, or view of life.
3. Computers. a graphical image that represents a person, as on the Internet.

Steve

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

The one problem with using any data from a dating site is figuring out what percentage of the people lied...lol. A good many people will plug in what they THINK the other sex wants instead of the actual truth. I should think that would make the statistics pretty unreliable.

Tina

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R Hagel

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

The one problem with using any data from a dating site is figuring out what percentage of the people lied...lol. A good many people will plug in what they THINK the other sex wants instead of the actual truth. I should think that would make the statistics pretty unreliable.

Tina

Wait, what are you saying?

I thought that if you read it on the Internet, it must be true.

Are you saying my assumption is wrong? Are you saying that people might -- *gasp* -- pad their profiles to impress others?

Nah, can't be. Say it ain't so. And here I thought every man on that site really has a head full of hair, an athlete's body and a $100k a year job...

Cheers,
Becky

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

The one problem with using any data from a dating site is figuring out what percentage of the people lied...lol. A good many people will plug in what they THINK the other sex wants instead of the actual truth. I should think that would make the statistics pretty unreliable.

Tina

Yeah, you have to wonder. A person in IM may say they make MILLIONS, while they are BROKE! On some sites, you find males posing as females or vice/versa. Education ALSO may be lied about. AND, if it is an OPEN PROFILE and they made a statement elsewhere, they may lie to cover up another lie, even though it doesn't make sense in the current context.

HEY, I will NOT tell a normal site my birthdate, and will not give my PRECISE age or the city I was born. It should be obvious why. Check my posts here. I am VAGUE about it. You can MAYBE get to the right decade, but that is it. For my city of birth? Well, you can figure it is in california. My interests are VERY eclectic, so don't try profiling my art or music preferences. BESIDES, words have been messed around SO much, that no genre is really meaningful. A few days ago some IDIOT appeared on "bank of hollywood"(A show where people try to propose a business to judges who, if they like the idea, will provide some funding, etc...) to spread the word about how rock isn't dead, and to keep rock alive. She CLAIMED to have been taught how to write, read, play music from an early age. Frankly, her performance was HORRIBLE! It was contrary to EVERYTHING she claimed. Thankfully, all the judges agreed with me.

If my income is open to all, I may not even be accurate THERE. And some people just DON'T like being profiled.

Still, maybe there is a misunderstanding here. HERE is how this is SUPPOSED to work..... BTW this is a VERY old idea, so don't TRY to give credit to ANYONE currently on line, etc... This existed BEFORE even COMPUTERS!!!!

1. Determine the IDEAL profile that YOU have for your product. For GOURMET dog food, for example, you probably want upper income dog owners. With THAT IDEAL, dog shows may be a good place. Pet groomers may be nice. Stay out of poor areas, areas where people HATE dogs, etc... You can run small market tests to tweak and test your ideas.

2. Advertise to those areas.(THIS is why "plenty of fish" has THEIR surveyed demographics on their site. If they include enough of YOUR demographic, that may be a good place to advertise. ) If sales are poor, try to figure where you went wrong in #1.

3. Run surveys to try to tweak #1. If your customers mostly agree with your demographic, you probably did a good job. If most of your hits, that didn't buy, fall outside your demographic, maybe you should test the advertisers.

4. Start from #1 again.

Steve

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

...But the way to really understand a person's emotional hot buttons, hopes, fears and desires is to become the Jane Goodall of marketing and live among your market for a while to study 'em up close.

You got that right . . . Jane. Here's a tip: when the monkeys start de-flea-ing you, it's time to leave the jungle.

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

Sorry but nothing can replace human interpretation. Meaning, physically getting involved with the market and customers. There is no computer program or automation process that can replace that.

Very good point. As Mark Twain so aptly pointed out, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

One can easily be fooled by statistics. Context and interpretation are crucial. For example, statistic may show 60% of internet users are male. One might consider gearing his product offers to men, but another statistic may reveal that women are more likely to be buyers. I'm not saying either of the stats are true, mind you, just using it for an illustration.

I think these stats are designed to appeal to their most likely advertisers. I wouldn't trust them for anything outside of the dating niche.

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Perhaps I read too much into the tone (it seemed at first read all 'Eban Pagen this, and Eban Pagen that, and "I haven't seen anyone else...." My bad.

The comment at the end was a joke.... That's the problem with posts -you can mind-read all the wrong things.

Also, you haven't been a member here that long so you probably don't know my sense of humour, so - err, it's your fault I said the wrong thing

No probs

Yup! My fault I think

Originally Posted by seasoned

It is DUMB to assume nobody has done this sort of thing. You DID say "One tool that I have been using that I've seen nobody else use is: Relevant Demographic Targetted Advertising.", AND you named the thread "Unused little customer research trick"! HECK, One project I was on even took this a step farther!

Steve, I think you have got confused. The forum
automatically takes the HTML title tags from the
website that people are linking to and uses that
text instead of just the URL - I wasn't saying I
hadn't seen anyone using 'relevant demographic
targeted advertising', I was saying I had never
seen anyone using the PlentyOfFish.com user
database for research but I can understand your
confusion :rolleyes:

As for people lying, you're right! But don't forget
research firms pay millions to those people on
the street with clipboards - people could be lying
to them as well. I actually think they would be pretty
honest on a dating website as eventually they
have to actually meet the people they're chatting to
on these sites - that's the general idea.

And Eben Pagan calls them 'customer avatars', if
you want to say he shouldn't do that you do it! I
personally like to learn from and take in the advice
of people in this industry that make $5 million per year +.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

Steve, I think you have got confused. The forum
automatically takes the HTML title tags from the
website that people are linking to and uses that
text instead of just the URL - I wasn't saying I
hadn't seen anyone using 'relevant demographic
targeted advertising', I was saying I had never
seen anyone using the PlentyOfFish.com user
database for research but I can understand your
confusion :rolleyes:

Well, the tag(which I KNOW comes from the site title, though the thread title does NOT) implied it. The title stated it. The pleenty of fish stats are only for THAT site, and if you don't own the site, how would YOU know?

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

As for people lying, you're right! But don't forget
research firms pay millions to those people on
the street with clipboards - people could be lying
to them as well. I actually think they would be pretty
honest on a dating website as eventually they
have to actually meet the people they're chatting to
on these sites - that's the general idea.

Whether the POF stats are true is WORTHLESS and MEANINGLESS unless you are advertising on their site(product or yourself). Still, if you are asked a question you MUST answer, you consider it invasive, and you answer it wrong, I think the term LIE is a bad one. They are DEMANDING you say something, and you can't tell them the truth, so they are basically ASKING you to lie. ALSO, will they be UPDATED!?!?!? What is true TODAY might not be true tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

And Eben Pagan calls them 'customer avatars', if
you want to say he shouldn't do that you do it! I
personally like to learn from and take in the advice
of people in this industry that make $5 million per year +.

You can't even be sure he makes that much, but he certainly doesn't make more by giving them a dumb name. Why doesn't he name them roses, it would make as much sense.

Steve

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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

Wait, what are you saying?

I thought that if you read it on the Internet, it must be true.

Are you saying my assumption is wrong? Are you saying that people might -- *gasp* -- pad their profiles to impress others?

Nah, can't be. Say it ain't so. And here I thought every man on that site really has a head full of hair, an athlete's body and a $100k a year job...

Cheers,
Becky

I thought most guys on dating sites just used a rolled up sock... :p

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips

I can and I do in the real time every day .

Are you ?

Yes - but with lots of research first. Perhaps I'm
doing something wrong

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, the tag(which I KNOW comes from the site title, though the thread title does NOT) implied it. The title stated it. The pleenty of fish stats are only for THAT site, and if you don't own the site, how would YOU know?

You can't even be sure he makes that much, but he certainly doesn't make more by giving them a dumb name. Why doesn't he name them roses, it would make as much sense.

I don't really understand what you're saying
here about me owning the site, perhaps forget
it! And yes he should call them roses :confused:

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Troy_Phillips 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

Yes - but with lots of research first. Perhaps I'm
doing something wrong

I never said you way was wrong or my way was right for that matter . I just have a quick way of researching and very easily could leave something out .

I have spent time and money and missed before . The longer I do it the less I miss though.

I don't need to know what someone had for breakfast if they are searching for hickory flavored bacon. I just provide the bacon .
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Troy_Phillips

14 years ago

I can hit the search button in a related forum, Do a quick research for the keywords , check out the volume of adwords competition and tell you in 15 minutes if I am interested or not .

Didn't even have to consult with Eben on that one .

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Steve Ranger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Troy_Phillips

I can hit the search button in a related forum, Do a quick research for the keywords , check out the volume of adwords competition and tell you in 15 minutes if I am interested or not .

Didn't even have to consult with Eben on that one .

Can you create a successful info product with
that data though? Can you create a sales page
that engages with them? Can you create an e-mail
marketing campaign that will have them desperately
wanting to buy from you?

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Troy_Phillips

14 years ago

I can and I do in the real time every day .

Are you ?

Originally Posted by Steve Ranger

Can you create a successful info product with
that data though? Can you create a sales page
that engages with them? Can you create an e-mail
marketing campaign that will have them desperately
wanting to buy from you?

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StaffPartyTrivia

14 years ago

I'll break it down for you:

Women 18-25 want new boots
Women 26-31 want a marital commitment
Women 32-39 want to look they are women 18-25
Women 40-50 want half *

Men 18-25 want women 18-25
Men 26-31 want the wedding to be over with asap
Men 32-39 want her to be the way she was when they first met
Men 40-50 want women 18-25 ... hence the *

Fill those needs and you are going to earn a lot of money.

Thanks
1 reply

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Vikuna2009+

14 years ago

Originally Posted by StaffPartyTrivia

I'll break it down for you:

Women 18-25 want new boots
Women 26-31 want a marital commitment
Women 32-39 want to look they are women 18-25
Women 40-50 want half *

Men 18-25 want women 18-25
Men 26-31 want the wedding to be over with asap
Men 32-39 want her to be the way she was when they first met
Men 40-50 want women 18-25 ... hence the *

Fill those needs and you are going to earn a lot of money.

So, if you are a woman over 50, are you supposed to f**k a street bum? Ridiculiuos (probably mis-spelled but anyway), get a grip. Women over 50 got plenty of $, why disregard?

Just sayin'...

Thanks

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Miriam Higginbotham

14 years ago

Hi all, I think that Eban Pagan is on to something researching his demographics. It does help to understand who and what to target. However, I think that getting to know your customers through list building and developing a relationship is the way to go for me. Once you have established a relationship you have a very good idea of their demographics.

Thanks

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debra

14 years ago

Want to know about Demographic Profiling and Marketing.

Here...I originally wrote it almost 3 years ago. Since then...it seems that a lot of ppl have given it several new names just to make it sound like something New.

No opt-in...just a pdf download:
http://www.traffic-n-more.com/market...techniques.pdf

Thanks

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Unused little customer research trick

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