14 replies
Yet another keyword research discussion.. I know there have been quite a few lately..

When using the terms allintitle, allinurl, & allinanchor is it necessary to put quotes around the keyword?

Ex: allintitle: "keyword phrase" vs allintitle: keyword phrase

The difference in results is very dramatic between the two.

According to google when these terms are used, the results shown are pages that use all words of your main keyword in any order- though not necessarily your keyword phrase as typed.

So isn't it necessary to put these keywords in quotes when using these parameters? Won't those results be your true keyword competition- the very same reason quotes are used over a 'naked' search in the first place?
#keyword #research
  • Very interesting question. Thanks for asking. I am not a guru in keyword search but I try allintitle:"running" and allintitle:running and both show 43,000,000. There is no difference. I am not saying that all cases both will be the same. Personally, I am taught by my instructor to do the version with quotes. It will be very good if some experts in WF can point out the difference. Again, thanks.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672510].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Hamish Jones
    Originally Posted by pjsweeting View Post

    Yet another keyword research discussion.. I know there have been quite a few lately..

    When using the terms allintitle, allinurl, & allinanchor is it necessary to put quotes around the keyword?

    Ex: allintitle: "keyword phrase" vs allintitle: keyword phrase

    The difference in results is very dramatic between the two.

    According to google when these terms are used, the results shown are pages that use all words of your main keyword in any order- though not necessarily your keyword phrase as typed.

    So isn't it necessary to put these keywords in quotes when using these parameters? Won't those results be your true keyword competition- the very same reason quotes are used over a 'naked' search in the first place?
    The reason for the "" is that it gives you an idea of how high your real competition is- i.e. people using an exact keyword phrase as opposed to having all those words in their webpage in no particular order.
    Signature
    Best Business Deals - The World's Most Customer Focused Telecommunications Company. Servicing Customers in Australia, Canada and the USA.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672533].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Single keyword, no need; multiple keywords, yes.
    Signature

    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672536].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author carlos123
    I believe that...

    allintitle:black tuxedos

    Will return all pages with the word "black" in the title AND/OR all pages that have the word "tuxedos" in them somewhere.

    allintitle:"black tuxedos"

    Will only return those pages that have the complete phrase "black tuxedos" in exactly that order in the title.

    Carlos
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672611].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author pjsweeting
      Perfect, thanks for the responses. This is not something I have seen talked about much around here.

      However after I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes and thought about this a little more, I had to disagree with my original post.

      When a user searches for a term, let's say 'green monkey'... google will return results showing pages optimized for the terms 'green' and/or 'monkey.' It will not return pages with the two words in that order unless the user uses quotes... which they do not.

      So when doing an allintitle: green monkey search (without quotes), wouldn't that in fact be my true comp? These are the results the user will see. While these pages are not necessarily optimized for the entire term 'green monkey' in that order, doing an allintitle without quotes will still return the results the average google user will see.

      Now not sure which is right... fighting between my own logic and what the warrior experts are telling me! :confused:


      Carlos, this is what I first thought as well. However that is not the case.
      Allintitle: black tuxedos - will only return results that have both 'black' and 'tuxedos' in the title.

      Google Search Operators - Google Guide
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672660].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by pjsweeting View Post

        So when doing an allintitle: green monkey search (without quotes), wouldn't that in fact be my true comp? These are the results the user will see. While these pages are not necessarily optimized for the entire term 'green monkey' in that order, doing an allintitle without quotes will still return the results the average google user will see.
        Not really. All else being equal, Google will rank a site that has all the keywords, and in that exact order, ahead of a site that has only some of the keywords or doesn't have them in the same order. Because a searcher doesn't optimize his search query doesn't mean Google doesn't optimize the results.

        Having said that, what I said may not appear to be true all the time because all else is seldom equal. Title is only one ranking factor of about 200. He with the most optimization advantages wins!
        Signature

        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672700].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author pjsweeting
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Not really. All else being equal, Google will rank a site that has all the keywords, and in that exact order, ahead of a site that has only some of the keywords or doesn't have them in the same order. Because a searcher doesn't optimize his search query doesn't mean Google doesn't optimize the results.

          Having said that, what I said may not appear to be true all the time because all else is seldom equal. Title is only one ranking factor of about 200. He with the most optimization advantages wins!
          That's what I was hoping you would say.
          Thanks, Dennis

          Cheers
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672727].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author AkuVn's Blog
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672701].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      I stand corrected about what I said. My understanding of it was not correct.

      Apparently...

      allintitle: black tuxedos

      will return all pages that have the words "black tuxedo" in their title. Not as I originally thought.

      What is strange though is that...

      allintitle: black tuxedos

      And...

      allintitle:"black tuxedos"

      Return the same exact top ten pages but where the count of pages is a bit over half of what the same search without the quotes returns.

      Carlos
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672737].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post

        I stand corrected about what I said. My understanding of it was not correct.

        Apparently...

        allintitle: black tuxedos

        will return all pages that have the words "black tuxedo" in their title. Not as I originally thought.

        What is strange though is that...

        allintitle: black tuxedos

        And...

        allintitle:"black tuxedos"

        Return the same exact top ten pages but where the count of pages is a bit over half of what the same search without the quotes returns.

        Carlos
        Google is a mysterious maiden, Carlos. Alluring, attractive, seductive, and one heckuva tease!
        Signature

        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672749].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author pjsweeting
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Google is a mysterious maiden, Carlos. Alluring, attractive, seductive, and one heckuva tease!
          I've come to learn very quickly..
          as they say..

          Can't live with her. Can't live without her.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1672761].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author J1218
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1673165].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by J1218 View Post

      I know a lot of factors go into how well you rank but how big of an advantage would you guys say you get from Google if you have the exact keyword phrase in the title for what someone is searching for.

      So to use the "green monkey" keyword example from above, if the title to the first result is "How to train a monkey that's green" and I make a site or article with the title "How to train a green monkey." are my chances much higher to rank or just slightly? Given that the 1st result isn't like a PR 8 with 10k backlinks...
      It's hard to tell. I mean to some degree all SEO is just guessing. Guessing as best we can but still guessing since Google does not make their algorithm public and is constantly tweaking and refining it. We all would love to have SEO be a perfect science but it will never be that as long as Google keeps changing it's algo.

      But I would say that generally speaking you should definitely have your keywords in your page title somewhere. Closer to the beginning is better.

      So instead of "How to buy Black Tuxedos" (assuming the keyword phrase you are targeting is Black Tuxedos) you would want to use "Black Tuxedos - How to Buy Them" type of thing.

      I am talking about from a search engine perspective. Sometimes it's better to use a title that is yummy for the search engines and not so good for visitors. Other times the other way around depending on whether you rank well or not based on other factors and can keep that ranking despite page title changes.

      From all that I have read on SEO and some of my own observations based on my own sites it definitely seems helpful to have a title and to have the keywords in the title. How much it helps to have the keywords at the front verses the back is less certain but I think having them at the front makes sense. I haven't seen any variation in positioning by changing the title assuming my keyword phrase is already in there somewhere.

      Ezine who knows a lot about titles recommends that keyword phrases be at the front.

      Carlos
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1674473].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author J1218
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1675456].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author carlos123
          I second what Dennis said about the 200 factors though I would add that of those 200 there are only a relative few that really, really count when going up against competitors in relatively uncompetitive niches.

          It's when you come up against competitors in very high competitive niches that the remaining factors come into play.

          In other words Google has to present something to searchers right? So in relatively uncompetitive niches they will not be sticklers for a site having all those 200 factors perfect before they rank them. Simply because most of the competitors in that uncompetitive niche don't have all their 200 perfect either.

          A bit more below your further comments...

          Originally Posted by J1218 View Post

          The reason I was asking is because a lot of times I will find what appears to be a good keyword to target, but then I notice that the top few results don't even have the exact keyword phrase in the title or even in the description or URL. They are ranking purely on PR and backlinks and they might have a word or two of the complete keyword phrase scattered throughout.
          I may be a tad bit more experienced than you in some things from the sounds of it but bear in mind that I am a relative newbie at this stuff myself so take what I say with a grain of salt.

          Having said that I would add this...ranking is NOT purely a matter of PR or backlinks. PR has very little of anything to do with ranking on a SERP page. Quite frankly I don't know why Google keeps showing PR on their Toolbar. Probably because if they dropped it a lot of people would uninstall their Toolbar but that's just speculation on my part.

          But it's clear that Google has de-emphesized PR as a ranking factor in recent years to the point where it does not seem to take the PR of a site into account at all.

          Some people say that backlinks from high PR sites are key but I have read convincing arguments from very experienced and very successful marketers that what is more important is relevant backlinks. Whether they come from high PR sites or not.

          What I mean to say is that a backlink from a high PR, non-relevant site, means dittly squat for ranking value in my understanding. Though a lot of internet marketers might disagree with that. I've seen convincing proof otherwise.

          If a site does not have the target keyword phrase in their title or scattered about in a seeming haphazard way they might be a good target to try and outrank but there are also other factors to consider. While the PR of a site doesn't matter directly for ranking purposes it DOES matter with respect to how difficult a site will be to outrank since PR is indicative of the authority that such a site has in Google's eyes.

          So for example if you see a PR 5 or higher site in the SERP's that site is probably going to be impractical for you to try and outrank. I personally don't try and outrank any sites that are over PR 3 myself. I especially like it when sites have PR0's, and 1's, and perhaps 2's with less than 50 backlinks of any kind.

          I wasn't sure if it would be pretty easy to knock them out of the top if I have a keyword rich title/description/URL and build some backlinks since Google might see my page as more relevent.
          If they don't have a relevant title/description/URL and their backlinks are either non-existant and/or not relevant (i.e. having keyword relevant anchor text from pages that are related to the theme or topic being targeted) then yeah...there's a possibility of that niche being a good one overall.

          Just be aware that a page may have all that but be encased in a domain that has very, very high authority. Like Wikipedia, Amazon, or otherwise. Google does take into account in my understanding the authority of the domain as well as given page within that domain.

          Not definitively so but it does take that into account.

          I do bum/article marketing so the goal is to not spend TOO much time on any one article to make it rank but rather submit a few good backlinks and hope that Ezine has the pulling power to get it where I need it to be.

          What would your opinion on this be?
          I personally would not spend a whole lot of time if any trying to get articles to rank with backlinks. Why bother? I prefer to try and get my own site pages to rank highly. I'm not into giving places like ezine too much of my valuable work or effort for free.

          My own experience tells me that Google is not giving full link juice for articles at places like ezine anymore. I've been told as much at Google's own Webmaster forum and that makes sense to me. I mean Google is not entirely dumb. They realize that every marketer and their neighbor is trying to obtain quick backlinks through places like ezine so why would they make it easy to manipulate their SERP's and give such backlinks full weight? I don't think they do though I am sure many marketers here might disagree with me on that.

          I would suggest diversifying your backlinks without relying too much on places like ezine. Forum signature links, RSS feeds to your site pages, in content guest blog postings, you name it. A little of it all spread out over time and done manually in my opinion.

          Again take what I say with a grain of salt but that's what I would do.

          Focus on becoming an expert keyword researcher and the rest should fall into place in time. Study the top ten in different niches and try to develop a feel for why they seem to rank well.

          In the end it's all guessing. I mean we can't tell with absolute certainty how to rank at the top in Google. But we can certainly improve our guessing to the point where we hit it big once in a while.

          By the way when I said sites above I should have said site pages since Google doesn't rank sites...just pages within sites.

          Carlos
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1676436].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by J1218 View Post

      I know a lot of factors go into how well you rank but how big of an advantage would you guys say you get from Google if you have the exact keyword phrase in the title for what someone is searching for.

      So to use the "green monkey" keyword example from above, if the title to the first result is "How to train a monkey that's green" and I make a site or article with the title "How to train a green monkey." are my chances much higher to rank or just slightly? Given that the 1st result isn't like a PR 8 with 10k backlinks...
      There are too many variables to say, both on your site and on your competition's sites. Google had around 200 factors they consider in their ranking algorithm, before their most recent caffeine update. Who knows how many there are now?
      Signature

      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1675484].message }}

Trending Topics