Newbies Please!

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

You can get you ranked #1 tomorrow if you write an article or web page about "dancing monkeys wearing shirts that are orange."

Not to derail your thread, but did you have to give away my next niche? I only hope I can get that domain name before some thief beats me to it.

I know what you mean though. I don't even look at threads about certain repetitive topics anymore, like duplicate content, for example.

Here's a tip to avoid Zeus66's lightning bolts...try the "search" feature.

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

If you want/expect traffic from Google that you don't want to pay for (PPC), for god's sake, learn how to do proper keyword research.

Where?

I mean, I'm not exactly stupid - and I spent close to $2,000 on a couple dozen products to learn decent keyword research, but I STILL don't think I've very good at it. The vast majority of what I've learned has come from my article writing clients, and it took about five months to get a reasonably grasp of the process. I feel that I'm scratching at the bottom edge of "competent" at KW research.

So what's the newbie to do? If it took me five months and $2k to learn it, how long is it going to take the undirected and overwhelmed newbie?

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Where?

I mean, I'm not exactly stupid - and I spent close to $2,000 on a couple dozen products to learn decent keyword research, but I STILL don't think I've very good at it. The vast majority of what I've learned has come from my article writing clients, and it took about five months to get a reasonably grasp of the process. I feel that I'm scratching at the bottom edge of "competent" at KW research.

So what's the newbie to do? If it took me five months and $2k to learn it, how long is it going to take the undirected and overwhelmed newbie?

Hey, where you been hiding, bro? Glad to see you back. You know, all you really need to find good keywords is the free Google keyword tool - https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal - and another free tool called Traffic Travis - Free SEO Software | The Best PPC & SEO Management Tool -Traffic Travis

Use the Google tool set to Exact (not Broad) and search for anything you're interested in making an article or site about as a phrase. You want phrases that get a decent search volume (under Exact, not Broad). When you find a few you like, fire up Traffic Travis, click on SEO Analysis, and search that phrase you want to check out. TT will show you how competitive the Top 10 or Top 20 at Google is. TT has video tutorials and it's all free.

That's literally all you need to do this! It's not complicated and it isn't time consuming.

Great, now I've gone and done what I ranted against doing in the OP. At least it was for you, CD, and not a newbie.

A Less Angry Fake Deity

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Don Schenk

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

A Less Angry Fake Deity

He is NOT a fake diety! Please be careful or you will anger the real One. Is your surge protector up to snuff?

Of course, you realize by next week this post will be forgotten and a new group of newbies (Hmmm is that new to the power of 2?) will be here asking the same question.

:-Don

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Don Schenk

He is NOT a fake diety! Please be careful or you will anger the real One. Is your surge protector up to snuff?

Of course, you realize by next week this post will be forgotten and a new group of newbies (Hmmm is that new to the power of 2?) will be here asking the same question.

:-Don

Don, me and the real Big Guy have an understanding. Then again, the gods of Olympus are well known to change allegiances and do things purely on a whim. So yeah, I might want to watch out. Thanks for the heads up.

I know the rant here is next to worthless, but sometimes you gotta get it out or it festers inside. And if it stops even one case of reckless newbism, I'll have done my job.

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Jeremy Kelsall

14 years ago

Keyword research is overrated

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Zeus66 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Keyword research is overrated

OK well, so be it. Consider yourself smited. Smote? Smitten? Whatever... write your will real quick, bub.
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NicheHunter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Keyword research is overrated

WHAT???????? Why do you think that Jeremy.

Gary

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by NicheHunter

Why do you think that Jeremy.

Because it's true.

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Because it's true.

The first sentence in my OP was this:

If you want/expect traffic from Google that you don't want to pay for (PPC), for god's sake, learn how to do proper keyword research.

So if anyone can explain how you get that without worrying about keyword research, I'm all eyes. I think Jeremy might have been being a bit facetious when he said keyword research was overrated. If you want to throw up sites and articles and whatnot without a care about keywords, be my guest.

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SuzanneH

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

The first sentence in my OP was this:

If you want/expect traffic from Google that you don't want to pay for (PPC), for god's sake, learn how to do proper keyword research.

So if anyone can explain how you get that without worrying about keyword research, I'm all eyes. I think Jeremy might have been being a bit facetious when he said keyword research was overrated. If you want to throw up sites and articles and whatnot without a care about keywords, be my guest.

Here's how to do it without keyword research: Have a site with good content written for people (not search engines), with relevant information and/or, depending on the niche, tools to help them (e.g.: weight loss industry = fitness calculators, food database, etc.) I created a site that I couldn't find online -- that is, I found sites with certain elements about weight loss, but couldn't find all those elements under one roof. So, I created that site.

I've never done keyword research in my life. Started out 7 + years ago, on my own, and put up a quality site in a niche I was interested in. The whole theory back then (or all that I heard about) was to make a site "sticky". So, that's what I did. (Oh, boy, am I sounding like a grumpy old lady?? "Back in the old days..." LOL! But it's true! Back then, it was: make your site sticky, make sure your visitors can navigate the site easily, etc.)

Over the years, I've learned about SEO and I'll keep that in mind. But SEO won't trump a title that pulls in a reader when I'm creating a title.

But that's my own experience and it's worked out amazingly well. Your mileage may vary...

Suzanne

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NicheHunter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Because it's true.

Now why waste peoples time with a dumb answer like that. Can you please clarify and give some examples why you think this is a true statement Dark.

Gary

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Killer Joe 14 years ago

John,

I started out as a newbie, and now I'm a rank ametuer.

So there is hope...

KJ
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- Zeus66 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Killer Joe
  
  John,
  
  I started out as a newbie, and now I'm a rank ametuer.
  
  So there is hope...
  
  KJ
  
  Killer Joe, if you're a "rank amateur" I might still be in newbie status myself and should probably just zip it. LOL We're all newbies at some point. It's not like I have no sympathy for 'em. I just don't have any for whiny "do it for me!" types who want to shortcut the learning phase. Got no use for 'em, no sir.
  
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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by NicheHunter

Now why waste peoples time with a dumb answer like that. Can you please clarify and give some examples why you think this is a true statement Dark.

There are plenty of people out there ranking and making money just fine without doing ANY keyword research AT ALL. So it's clearly not necessary.

There are also plenty of people out there who spend hours on end doing keyword research who can't rank and aren't making any money. So it's clearly not sufficient.

So because keyword research is neither necessary nor sufficient to succeed in this business, painting it as a critical skill simply doesn't make sense.

Hence, it's overrated. That doesn't mean it's worthless... just not as important as people pretend it is.

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Bryan Zimmerman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

There are also plenty of people out there who spend hours on end doing keyword research who can't rank and aren't making any money. So it's clearly not sufficient.

And there are plenty of people who read 1000 ebooks, spend 10K on coaching programs and wind up never making one dime let alone ranking for anything.

You want to learn how to do keyword research? TEST TEST TEST TEST. You never learn something as well as when you figure it out for yourself. Test out some keywords, how you found them and what you did with them. Write down your results, expand and go at it again..........and again .........and again. If you work at it with an actual plan of LEARNING how to do it, you will eventually learn what needs to be done.

You don't walk into an auto shop and play around for a week and now all of a sudden you know how to rebuild a high performance engine. It takes time and the drive to spend that time figuring it out.

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NicheHunter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

There are plenty of people out there ranking and making money just fine without doing ANY keyword research AT ALL. So it's clearly not necessary.

There are also plenty of people out there who spend hours on end doing keyword research who can't rank and aren't making any money. So it's clearly not sufficient.

So because keyword research is neither necessary nor sufficient to succeed in this business, painting it as a critical skill simply doesn't make sense.

Hence, it's overrated. That doesn't mean it's worthless... just not as important as people pretend it is.

Thanks Dark,

I appreciate the explanation. Would you mind mentioning some of them so I may research these areas?

I am always interested in learning more.

Gary

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

There are plenty of people out there ranking and making money just fine without doing ANY keyword research AT ALL. So it's clearly not necessary.

There are also plenty of people out there who spend hours on end doing keyword research who can't rank and aren't making any money. So it's clearly not sufficient.

So because keyword research is neither necessary nor sufficient to succeed in this business, painting it as a critical skill simply doesn't make sense.

Hence, it's overrated. That doesn't mean it's worthless... just not as important as people pretend it is.

Is it really that over rated? Without keyword research you are basically guessing, is it ever good to guess in business or should you do what the numbers tell you? Doing keyword research is very sufficient, without keyword research you wouldn't even know the traffic for your keyword. If you don't do it, you just have a random word which you think will be good when in all reality, it is simple to find out if that keyword is bad or not.

Research IS necessary because with out it, you are just guessing.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Is it really that over rated? Without keyword research you are basically guessing, is it ever good to guess in business or should you do what the numbers tell you? Doing keyword research is very sufficient, without keyword research you wouldn't even know the traffic for your keyword. If you don't do it, you just have a random word which you think will be good when in all reality, it is simple to find out if that keyword is bad or not.

Research IS necessary because with out it, you are just guessing.

Exactly. Here's an example of how your strategy can be affected by guessing:

low cost hosting - 4,400 exact match searches per month
cheap hosting - 40,500 exact match searches per month

Without keyword research you wouldn't know one search phrase has over 10 times the number of searches per month. I do keyword research when I'm hunting for domain names, when I'm building a new site, and when I'm adding new web pages. It takes so little time there's really little reason not to. It doesn't work out like we want every time, but it works out better than just guessing IMHO.

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Without keyword research you are basically guessing, is it ever good to guess in business or should you do what the numbers tell you?

The numbers tell you people are looking for things.

They do not tell you why.

So you have to guess. Is it ever good to guess in business?

No, it's not. But it is frequently necessary.

The other day, I went out looking for pictures of swim meets. I made probably fifty searches trying to find the kind of picture I wanted. All of that goes into the search stats, and I'm part of a statistic about how many people are searching for swim meets.

What they don't tell you is that I was using a swim meet as a metaphor for SEO. Indeed, there is nothing that can tell you such a thing. You have to guess why I'm looking for swim meets, then try to find a product that will appeal to me, and build a site that can sell it to me.

Are you going to build a site about SEO?

Think about the searches you've made. There's a very funny parody of Poe's "The Raven" about midget pornography. I've had several people tell me I just have to see it, and go type "midget pornography" into a search engine before I can say I already did. That's just me. At least four searches for "midget pornography" have been made to show me that poem. How many others are there?

Do you think the numbers on the keyword phrase "midget pornography" indicate some kind of untapped niche?

There are subtleties to keyword research that nobody is talking about. That's why I consider myself scraping the bottom edge of competent: I can see these problems, but I cannot see the solutions. And what I have not yet determined is whether the SEO "experts" have solved these problems, or simply don't know they exist.

I have faith that the problems are solved... but that faith erodes a little each day.

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butters

14 years ago

The numbers tell you people are looking for things.

They do not tell you why.

No, the next stage of market research tells you why...

Keyword research is a small part of the actual research needed to determine if a niche is viable. The rest of the research will give you a better picture and tell you if that niche is actually viable. All keyword research does is give you some keywords and some numbers, market research tells you what that market wants, where they are and how to sell to them and it all combines into one big pool of data where you can set out a plan.

To say it isn't necessary, well, let me put it likes this. If I do my market research, I have to guess less, the more intense the research, the less guessing involved. If you do none, you will be going into a niche blind and it will take more time and effort on your part. You will have to guess what keyword is right and wrong, so extra time will be spent there writing content and SEOing it, just to see if it is right or wrong. Good research tells you exactly what you need to do and what areas you need to target, without that research, its just trial and error.

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

No, the next stage of market research tells you why...

The part that is NOT keyword research, you mean.

I suggest that "why" without "what" is better than "what" without "why."

Keyword research is overrated.

There are plenty of systems that don't work without keyword research, but there are plenty of others that do. Indeed, twenty years ago, there was NO SUCH THING as keyword research - and people ran businesses all the same.

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

The part that is NOT keyword research, you mean.

Yes I know that isn't keyword research, as I stated below that... But keyword research is done along with market research. There is a process you go through to make a start, first being market research, then keyword, then further market research for the keywords you find. If you don't do the keywords and just some market research, you are still guessing... One doesn't work with out the other.

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Yes I know that isn't keyword research, as I stated below that...

Keep in mind that my argument is that people place TOO MUCH EMPHASIS on keyword research.

You're describing a very large process with keyword research in it.

How much do you hear about the rest of that process?

Is it proportionally accurate, given how much you hear about keyword research?

If not, would you say you hear TOO MUCH about keyword research, given the amount of time, energy, and effort it represents in your process?

Because that would be pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Keep in mind that my argument is that people place TOO MUCH EMPHASIS on keyword research.

You're describing a very large process with keyword research in it.

How much do you hear about the rest of that process?

Is it proportionally accurate, given how much you hear about keyword research?

If not, would you say you hear TOO MUCH about keyword research, given the amount of time, energy, and effort it represents in your process?

Because that would be pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

I guess it comes down to what you want your site to be, if you want a site which is pulling in traffic from google then I think that keyword research is a must... If you are using other methods to get traffic, I guess it wouldn't matter so much.

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ArizonaJay

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

. Indeed, twenty years ago, there was NO SUCH THING as keyword research - and people ran businesses all the same.

Twenty years ago, "keyword research" was done by looking through your local yellow pages. That gave you a glimpse into what consumers were searching for, what category your business should be listed under, the competition, if you needed to pay for additional advertising with an inline ad, etc.

It was necessary then, just as it's necessary now.

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ArizonaJay

Twenty years ago, "keyword research" was done by looking through your local yellow pages. That gave you a glimpse into what consumers were searching for, what category your business should be listed under, the competition, if you needed to pay for additional advertising with an inline ad, etc.

It was necessary then, just as it's necessary now.

Even though I agree with you but I see his point... Not all business need keyword research because all don't care about search engine ranking. It all depends on what you want your traffic sources to be.

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Frank Donovan 14 years ago

Originally Posted by NicheHunter

WHAT???????? Why do you think that Jeremy.

If you read John's OP, you'll notice he stipulates that keyword research is important if you want to rank high in the search engines without paying for the privilege.

Obviously, if your business model does not primarily rely on SEO, identifying suitable keywords may be less of an issue. Personally, these days I hardly ever start a new site without firing up my favorite keyword tool, but that's because, for me, it lays the best foundation for my sites. Others will have their own methods.

However, newcomers to IM are always asking about the best way of identifying profitable niches. To my mind, if you can get to grips with an effective keyword research system, you'll never be short of niche ideas. There are just so many potential niches to discover.

But also bear in mind that most searches are still unique. So, while a good keyword research tool is a great help - and definitely a boon for kickstarting an idea - your own intuition is going to be your best weapon in many instances. That's what makes it such fun

Frank
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pup

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Hey, where you been hiding, bro? Glad to see you back. You know, all you really need to find good keywords is the free Google keyword tool - https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal - and another free tool called Traffic Travis - Free SEO Software | The Best PPC & SEO Management Tool -Traffic Travis

Use the Google tool set to Exact (not Broad) and search for anything you're interested in making an article or site about as a phrase. You want phrases that get a decent search volume (under Exact, not Broad). When you find a few you like, fire up Traffic Travis, click on SEO Analysis, and search that phrase you want to check out. TT will show you how competitive the Top 10 or Top 20 at Google is. TT has video tutorials and it's all free.

That's literally all you need to do this! It's not complicated and it isn't time consuming.

Great, now I've gone and done what I ranted against doing in the OP. At least it was for you, CD, and not a newbie.

A Less Angry Fake Deity

Thanks so much for the links, I knew Google's Keyword Tool but not about Traffic Travis... on my way to check it out now...

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Louise Green

14 years ago

SEO is easy enough to learn without paying someone to do it, only pay someone if you don't have the time to learn it yourself.

And once you learn it you'll be able to re-use it over and over on every site you make. It's all part of being an Internet marketer.

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lowjo

14 years ago

Hi Zeus,

Well the old "give the man a fish and he'll eat for a day" saying does come to mind.

I've had the unfortunate experience of having some people turn a little nasty on me the moment I try to guide them rather than hand them.

Must admit that I'm still a little soft and have a heck of a time saying no but I really do appreciate where you are coming from.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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bcbuster

14 years ago

I was very fortunate that I stumbled across this forum early in my IM career (which was like last week!) and purchased Micro Niche Finder...awesome tool. However, now I want Market Samurai for all the bells and whistles! So far I've made exactly $280.15 with my IM....however I've spent at least $300. Oops! But I needed some tools to get started!

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lowjo 14 years ago

Originally Posted by bcbuster

So far I've made exactly $280.15 with my IM....however I've spent at least $300. Oops! But I needed some tools to get started!

Ummm, actually that's pretty awesome! You've generated revenue and down less than $20....

...welcome to the top 5% of all Internet marketers!
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- John Reed 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by lowjo
  
  Ummm, actually that's pretty awesome! You've generated revenue and down less than $20....
  
  ...welcome to the top 5% of all Internet marketers!
  
  Yup, even though I'm now beginning to make progress it'll be some time yet before I get anywhere near that percentage success! I've got several years worth of catching up to do!
  
  Stick with it, making a small improvement and then repeating it would earn a living!!
  
  John
  
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Kim Standerline

14 years ago

If you started IM very recently and have already made money, then kudos to you

Kim

Originally Posted by bcbuster

I was very fortunate that I stumbled across this forum early in my IM career (which was like last week!) and purchased Micro Niche Finder...awesome tool. However, now I want Market Samurai for all the bells and whistles! So far I've made exactly $280.15 with my IM....however I've spent at least $300. Oops! But I needed some tools to get started!

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bcbuster

I was very fortunate that I stumbled across this forum early in my IM career (which was like last week!) and purchased Micro Niche Finder...awesome tool. However, now I want Market Samurai for all the bells and whistles! So far I've made exactly $280.15 with my IM....however I've spent at least $300. Oops! But I needed some tools to get started!

Most don't make anything the first week, so you've done very well.

Even if its a net loss now, you're on you're way up, up, up, cause you don't IM buy products every week. You've done better than most for your first week.

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NicheHunter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bcbuster

I was very fortunate that I stumbled across this forum early in my IM career (which was like last week!) and purchased Micro Niche Finder...awesome tool. However, now I want Market Samurai for all the bells and whistles! So far I've made exactly $280.15 with my IM....however I've spent at least $300. Oops! But I needed some tools to get started!

Those are the best 2 keyword tools out there. I also want them both, but not just yet. Gotta make some money first.

Gary

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bcbuster

14 years ago

Oh, and PS...now I'm addicted to keyword research....When you find a gem it's like winning a game woohoo!

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bcbuster

Oh, and PS...now I'm addicted to keyword research....When you find a gem it's like winning a game woohoo!

Oh hell yes! They say you can get hooked on crack the first time you try it. Whatever. That's nothing compared to finding your first real hidden gem keyword. Try breaking that addiction. Fuggedaboutit.

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lowjo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Oh hell yes! They say you can get hooked on crack the first time you try it. Whatever. That's nothing compared to finding your first real hidden gem keyword. Try breaking that addiction. Fuggedaboutit.

So...you compare the two based on your personal experience with both?

Might explain the wee flip flop you just did ....

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petelta

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Oh hell yes! They say you can get hooked on crack the first time you try it. Whatever. That's nothing compared to finding your first real hidden gem keyword. Try breaking that addiction. Fuggedaboutit.

haha, that's so true.

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Troy_Phillips

14 years ago

From a recent Friday night experience ... I am convinced John has a monkey fetish

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Zeus66

14 years ago

I don't know from crack, but I do have a Dachshund who goes under my deck every time I let him out and does something mysterious under there. I think it might be a crack lab. He's started wearing a lot of bling and he's flashing wads of cash too. If I start seeing skinny neighborhood dogs hanging around looking anxious, I'll know for sure.

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lowjo

14 years ago

Thanks for making me spit out a big mouthful of coffee...I needed a good laugh.

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Todd S

14 years ago

Hey being a newbie myself I take no offense at what Zeus said (even though he did go off on a Raging Rant lol) if more newbie's would take the time to read how to use the forum and spend some time actually doing some research and then come to the forum with specific question their results might be different. I've been a member of the forum since Aug 09 and have spent time reading posts and more importantly actually implementing the things I learned I've only made a few bucks in my short career as an IMer but I think the most important thing I learned was to ask the right questions to get the right answers. I also believe that in order to achieve success in anything you must model successful people. The fastest way to success is to find a mentor who can guide you in the right direction IMHO.

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ILUVCA$H

14 years ago

NICE YOU ARE RANKING #1

dancing monkeys wearing shirts that are orange - Google Search

LOL

Originally Posted by Zeus66

If you want/expect traffic from Google that you don't want to pay for (PPC), for god's sake, learn how to do proper keyword research. Please stop asking us all to help you get to the top of Google for your websites, articles, etc. You can get you ranked #1 tomorrow if you write an article or web page about "dancing monkeys wearing shirts that are orange." But nobody's searching for that! Get it? Got it? Good!

Now go learn how to figure out which words and phrases ARE being searched for and base everything you do on that. It's not that hard, but I'm sick to death of so many newbies coming here and begging us to help them take shortcuts. It's annoying and it's frankly rude. We all had to learn to do it ourselves... or we're well off enough to pay someone else to do it for us. We're not asking others to do it for free.

Same goes for a lot of these other newbie threads I keep seeing asking someone to do for free what others charge pretty good money for - just to save you the "trouble" of learning yourself or paying to have it done.

And to my fellow more experienced Warriors - we do the new folks no good by catering to them on this stuff. I'm guilty of it, too, so no stones in glass houses here. I'm vowing to police myself. Please do the same, if you care at all.

</rant>

An Angry Zeus With Lightning Bolts Locked & Loaded

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ILUVCA

NICE YOU ARE RANKING #1

dancing monkeys wearing shirts that are orange - Google Search

LOL

Yep, I'm that good at SEO. Now pay me $400/hour and I'll get you ranked for all of the following:

hamster scientists doing yoga
apricot flavored french fries
nearsighted chinchillas earning their PHD's
Jeremy Kelsall's smoldering remains after being mysteriously struck by lightning on a sunny day

Probably only cost you about $10,000. But think of all the traffic!

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ILUVCA$H

14 years ago

LOL - where do I sign up !

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Yep, I'm that good at SEO. Now pay me $400/hour and I'll get you ranked for all of the following:

hamster scientists doing yoga
apricot flavored french fries
nearsighted chinchillas earning their PHD's
Jeremy Kelsall's smoldering remains after being mysteriously struck by lightning on a sunny day

Probably only cost you about $10,000. But think of all the traffic!

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valerieSONORA

14 years ago

I think its a law that every so often someone must post a thread telling newbies to use the search function instead of asking questions.

A lot of newbies haven't heard of keyword research or have heard of it but don't know a thing about it.

Oh and it CAN be very time consuming, depending on the amount of research. Don't make it sound like it can be done in 5 seconds especially if you find a lot of oversaturated niches/phrases you don't want to touch.

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neodarth 14 years ago

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

A lot of newbies haven't heard of keyword research or have heard of it but don't know a thing about it.

Thanks God for that, that's means we still have people to sell IM products!

The IM niche isn't dead yet!
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racso316

14 years ago

Zeus I got an easy method for you. Look at the title of the thread and if you decide you're too good for it to answer and help somebody in need of help, don't click on it and keep scrolling up

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Katie Rich

14 years ago

Originally Posted by alexm

Lol rant somewhere else. This is pathetic not gonna lie. Suck it up, and welcome to the world that apparently you've been hiding from the majority of your life.

Because are gonna want to ask questions.

Suck it up buttercup.

WHAT??

I have no idea what the heck that means, but I would suggest that addressing a senior warrior in that tone (what the hell does 'suck it up' actually mean?) is a good way to ensure you get no future help whatsoever!

Read the posts. Zeus just gave two excellent pieces of information which will help any newbie, and some of us who are not so new!

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Zeus66

14 years ago

You know, life's all about choices... at least in the world's "free" countries, within one of which I was lucky enough to be born. And people love to blather on and on about those choices. What they rarely mention is the dark side of making choices: repercussions.

If you want to join a forum like this and right out of the gate start whining that you can't make money and somebody please do my work for me so I can, ok. That's YOUR choice, and guess what Skippy? It has repercussions. One of them is to be called out for doing something rude. You maybe didn't know or intend to be rude, and that's fine. I'm not saying hang 'em all by the neck til their feet stop moving. But it's best you learn early on that this is not a place to come to get someone else to do it all for you. So let me be clear. I'm not taking newbs to task who just need to be pointed in the right direction. If you ask what's a good tool to use to find out how to get more search engine traffic, that's a whole nother kettle of fish from asking someone here to go find you some keywords or show you how to build a website from scratch via PM or anything like that.

I'm all about choices. I'm also all about you reaping the results of your choices. So those who think people like me should "suck it up" or just ignore threads full of whiny, lazy, "do it for me!" language, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post.... wait, sorry, movie line. Just think it all the way through before you knee-jerk something. That's all. No biggy. Not worth starting a flame war over. Not even close.

John

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by alexm

Lol rant somewhere else. This is pathetic not gonna lie. Suck it up, and welcome to the world that apparently you've been hiding from the majority of your life.

Because are gonna want to ask questions.

Suck it up buttercup.

Do you think that was clever? With your whole 19 posts, do you think it was wise to tell a well-respected, long-time member to take his rant elsewhere, and then to cap it off by calling him buttercup?

If you want to disagree, that's fine, but please learn to do it respectfully like an adult.

Hey John, you're in good company...

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.
-Abraham Lincoln

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mello

14 years ago

Newbies get overload.

They get confused.

There are too many bright shiny objects. Too much 'used car salesman' 'get rich quick' stuff.

It's not necessarily that they don't want to take action or are lazy or want someone to do it for them. Just they find themselves stuck in the middle of a very thick forest with no landmarks and unsure which way to turn to find their way out.

Lots of people are standing near them whispering that for a price they have the magic solution to get to where they want to go.

Not everyone who starts in IM is clear, focussed, action oriented and full of confidence. Some tred with doubt and fear but a burning conviction that this is their path. But most are resourceful and keen.

They just need Senior Warriors who are great in pointing them in the right direction and suggesting tools they might pick up along the way.

Because IM came naturally and easy to you don't assume that those for whom it doesn't are less capable and need to go get a job.

Give 'em a break. If they ask a question you think they shouldn't, click to the next thread that grabs you and leave them alone. No need to bag them out for it ... even though it can be so frustrating when you read some!! :-)

I'm thinking we need a forum section for rants - they seem to be more frequent these days!!

Cheers
Mel

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mello

Newbies get overload.

They get confused.

There are too many bright shiny objects. Too much 'used car salesman' 'get rich quick' stuff.

It's not necessarily that they don't want to take action or are lazy or want someone to do it for them. Just they find themselves stuck in the middle of a very thick forest with no landmarks and unsure which way to turn to find their way out.

Lots of people are standing near them whispering that for a price they have the magic solution to get to where they want to go.

Not everyone who starts in IM is clear, focussed, action oriented and full of confidence. Some tred with doubt and fear but a burning conviction that this is their path. But most are resourceful and keen.

They just need Senior Warriors who are great in pointing them in the right direction and suggesting tools they might pick up along the way.

Because IM came naturally and easy to you don't assume that those for whom it doesn't are less capable and need to go get a job.

Give 'em a break. If they ask a question you think they shouldn't, click to the next thread that grabs you and leave them alone. No need to bag them out for it ... even though it can be so frustrating when you read some!! :-)

I'm thinking we need a forum section for rants - they seem to be more frequent these days!!

Cheers
Mel

Mel, don't assume that a non-newbie IM'er who has "made it" had it come easy to them. I hate that kind of thinking. It's as if some think guys like Frank Kern and Mike Filsaime and Marlon Sanders, etc. had a rich Uncle who left them everything. Those guys worked their asses off to make it big. Then there a ton of us little fish who worked our asses off just to get to where we didn't have to work for someone else to earn a living. A lot of the newbies here today will make it. I wish them all the success they can attain.

I just don't know how to make this any clearer than I did right from the first post...

Ask for DIRECTIONS. That's great. I'm one of the first to jump and help someone here who does that. It fires me up to see a newbie who wants to roll up his sleeves and learn and grow his/her business. I love that kind of hunger and I reward it if I can by helping in any way I can to point them in the right direction.

But there is what I see to be a growing segment here at WF who join and start right in with wanting someone to do things for them. See how that's not the same thing? In my own case, just in the last 2 months I've had probably 15 PM's from newbies and about 10 of them were essentially asking me to lay it all out for them for free. Not "Hey, can you tell me how to do _______?" - which is fine. Most were "Hey, can you find me some good keywords" or "Can you show me your sites so I can see how you do it?" I know I'm not alone in this because several other Warriors who have been around a while have commented to me about seeing the same thing in recent weeks. All I'm saying here is stop asking to have it done for you. Ask away if you just want to know where to go and what you should do FOR YOURSELF.

John

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mello

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Mel, don't assume that a non-newbie IM'er who has "made it" had it come easy to them. I hate that kind of thinking. It's as if some think guys like Frank Kern and Mike Filsaime and Marlon Sanders, etc. had a rich Uncle who left them everything. Those guys worked their asses off to make it big. Then there a ton of us little fish who worked our asses off just to get to where we didn't have to work for someone else to earn a living. A lot of the newbies here today will make it. I wish them all the success they can attain.

I just don't know how to make this any clearer than I did right from the first post...

Ask for DIRECTIONS. That's great. I'm one of the first to jump and help someone here who does that. It fires me up to see a newbie who wants to roll up his sleeves and learn and grow his/her business. I love that kind of hunger and I reward it if I can by helping in any way I can to point them in the right direction.

But there is what I see to be a growing segment here at WF who join and start right in with wanting someone to do things for them. See how that's not the same thing? In my own case, just in the last 2 months I've had probably 15 PM's from newbies and about 10 of them were essentially asking me to lay it all out for them for free. Not "Hey, can you tell me how to do _______?" - which is fine. Most were "Hey, can you find me some good keywords" or "Can you show me your sites so I can see how you do it?" I know I'm not alone in this because several other Warriors who have been around a while have commented to me about seeing the same thing in recent weeks. All I'm saying here is stop asking to have it done for you. Ask away if you just want to know where to go and what you should do FOR YOURSELF.

John

John I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet, just in different parts of the chorus.

I've been online since 98 and learnt html coding to cut my first website way back when. Most of my internet life has been about my offline businesses. But I consider myself a newbie as I've not tried to make online money until relatively recently. No matter how resourceful I am I find it all confusing so I empathise with the rank newbies who haven't a clue. There's lots of pieces of the puzzle missing for many and they don't know what they don't know.

Agree, give a hand where needed but don't expect someone to do it for you.

Cheers
Mel

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mello

14 years ago

Btw - was thrown by part of your reply but now I get it. :confused:

My apologies ... this comment wasn't directed at you personally but another poster on this thread. I don't assume anyone successful got a free pass.

You're a well respected warrior and I appreciate your contributions and have learnt from them.

Cheers
Mel

Because IM came naturally and easy to you don't assume that those for whom it doesn't are less capable and need to go get a job.

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Mel, don't assume that a non-newbie IM'er who has "made it" had it come easy to them. I hate that kind of thinking. It's as if some think guys like Frank Kern and Mike Filsaime and Marlon Sanders, etc. had a rich Uncle who left them everything. Those guys worked their asses off to make it big. Then there a ton of us little fish who worked our asses off just to get to where we didn't have to work for someone else to earn a living. A lot of the newbies here today will make it. I wish them all the success they can attain.
John

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mpx305 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

But there is what I see to be a growing segment here at WF who join and start right in with wanting someone to do things for them.
John

John,
I am a newbie myself and although I like to do things myself and I have never asked for anything on a silver platter. I have to say that it seems like recently most IM services are geared towards "doing it all for you". Maybe some newbies think that the WF is just an extension of the "we will automate everything for you" trend that seems to be happening.

All I'm saying is that most new people are clueless and the first thing that they see are all these Guru's telling them that they can automate everything for them and they get the wrong impression of the business.

Regards,

Mario
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Terry Hatfield

14 years ago

Guess you are ranking for "Newbies Please" also. Pretty impressive I've been trying to crack that one for 13 years.

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scrofford

14 years ago

I'm looking for a dancing monkey wearing a shirt that is orange! Do you have one John? That would be a great coincidence!

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Jason Perez O'Connor

14 years ago

Can't blame the average joe for joining the internet, not knowing how it works around forums and its search functions and instead outright ask.

If it annoys you, do not answer

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Yeah, sure, ask away. If you're new ask a lot of questions. No problem. I'll even help where I can. Heck, I ask lots of question because I'm still a newbie about a lot of things in this business. Don't know a thing about PPC or CPV, for example. But what I won't do and wouldn't have done even when I first started in IM is ask someone to do it for me.

That's all I have a problem with here. I think I've made it abundantly clear. So those of you who refuse to accept the difference between newbies asking questions to learn and asking other Warriors to do it for them - go pound sand. I have no time for you. Address what is actually the point in a thread or go back to school and have someone teach you basic reading comprehension. It's not my problem if nuances aren't your strong suit.

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shopbic

14 years ago

I'm a newbie. I started programing when disks were 12"in diameter and data entry was by punch card. Everyone has to start somewhere. The problem is that a lot of people now want it handed to them. They expect the government or others to help or should I say give it to them. People need to remember that you must make your own way. Search all the post, Google every thing, and you will succeed.
Just my thoughts...

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JayXtreme

14 years ago

Keyword research is obselete

It's being used by marketers as the holy grail of internet marketing. And in doing so they are guiding each new "generation" of n00bs down a frustrating and dead end path.

We should be telling people to learn:

How to connect with the end user over the internet

How best to find their target market

How to analyse niche trends and be ahead of the curve

Which ways are best to use content, showcasing that content without worrying about a x% keyword inclusion etc..

Keyword research bites, keyword inclusion sucks! and the quicker we start showing people how they REALLY make money, the happier they will be.

Let me ask you this..

Does keyword research make or break YOUR niche business?

It doesn't mine...

Does keyword research make you money in your niche business?

Peace

Jay

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by JayXtreme

How to connect with the end user over the internet

How best to find their target market

How to analyse niche trends and be ahead of the curve

A lot of people think keyword research does these things.

If you know what someone is searching for, you can be that thing! And you connect with that end user! Who is in your target market, because he's searching for what you've got! And those monthly search stats, those are the trends!

What they're trying to do is run the maze backwards. Instead of starting from a product and trying to take it to their customers, they are starting from the customers and trying to lead them to the product. But this is a trap; when you're trying to entice a random person into wanting what you have, you're playing a dangerous game where it's EASY to think unethical and immoral and even illegal things are perfectly okay.

That way leads to the Dark Side.
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Zeus66

14 years ago

If anyone has read this thread and is tempted to believe the things that folks like Jay and Suzanne are saying - that keyword research is unimportant, etc. - I urge you to do a test. Start 2 new sites. For one, spend some time finding a niche that advertisers are spending lots of money in and then pick a few keywords in that niche that you learn from your research are being searched for at Google, say, at least 5,000 times a month. Then use Traffic Travis or something comparable to quickly determine how competitive those keywords are. Focus on the less competitive ones. Then use those keywords in the pages of your brand new site. Use them in the titles, the description meta tags, and here and there in your page text.

For your 2nd brand new site, just do it about something you enjoy and would like to make money from. Don't worry at all about anything but pleasing your readers. Don't do anything to focus on words and phrases that you know from research you do that people are actually searching at Google for.

Let both brand new sites age for a couple of months. Then compare how much free traffic each site is getting from Google (and Yahoo, Bing, etc.). That's all. Just do that simple test. There's no need to take any of our words for it. Prove this to yourself.

John

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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

If anyone has read this thread and is tempted to believe the things that folks like Jay and Suzanne are saying - that keyword research is unimportant, etc. - I urge you to do a test.

Let both brand new sites age for a couple of months. Then compare how much free traffic each site is getting from Google (and Yahoo, Bing, etc.). That's all. Just do that simple test. There's no need to take any of our words for it. Prove this to yourself.

John

:confused:

You want me to "work?"

You can't just give me an answer NOW!

I need money like yesterday. Come on. I'm sure you can do better than that.

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JayXtreme

14 years ago

I have to agree with John here...

We might not agree with the point in the OP, but what is certain is, you need to TEST these things for yourself...

Don't take anybody else's data as your own

Test, track, analyse

Peace

Jay

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SuzanneH

14 years ago

A more fair test would be two sites in the same exact niche, and then see what happens. But again, it all depends what you want out of a site, right? I find that gearing it towards people instead of search engines allows for other kinds of free traffic: referrals, word-of-mouth, return visitors.

Keep in mind, I didn't say keywords are unimportant (I know you didn't say that I said that; just want to emphasize a point). You need to have words on your page that people use -- e.g. if you call it a "widgetizer" but everybody else calls it a "widget," you're going to paint yourself into a corner.

My experience has been that, with good, relevant content, the traffic comes in. I don't need to look for longtail keywords, for example, because it's already taken care of in the content.

Apologies for sidetracking the thread! :-)

Suzanne

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Lisa Gergets

14 years ago

Because are gonna want to ask questions.

I think are need to learn to how speak first.

Blerg.

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pyles

14 years ago

So is there a tutorial we can follow to help with keyword research?

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Zeus66

14 years ago

I was not referring at all to business models that don't rely on free search engine traffic. I think I made that pretty clear in the OP. So these arguments about not needing to do keyword research are correct... they just don't pertain to the point of this thread. LOL

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Matt Bard

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

If you want/expect traffic from Google that you don't want to pay for...

No. I don't think that was clear. Just what do you mean

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Online Bliss

14 years ago

I think its a law that every so often someone must post a thread telling newbies to use the search function instead of asking questions.

Everything except the newest gadget must be in the archives.
There wouldn't be any posts if we all new the answers.

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scattermouse

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

If you want/expect traffic from Google that you don't want to pay for (PPC), for god's sake, learn how to do proper keyword research. Please stop asking us all to help you get to the top of Google for your websites, articles, etc. You can get you ranked #1 tomorrow if you write an article or web page about "dancing monkeys wearing shirts that are orange." But nobody's searching for that! Get it? Got it? Good!

Now go learn how to figure out which words and phrases ARE being searched for and base everything you do on that. It's not that hard, but I'm sick to death of so many newbies coming here and begging us to help them take shortcuts. It's annoying and it's frankly rude. We all had to learn to do it ourselves... or we're well off enough to pay someone else to do it for us. We're not asking others to do it for free.

Same goes for a lot of these other newbie threads I keep seeing asking someone to do for free what others charge pretty good money for - just to save you the "trouble" of learning yourself or paying to have it done.

And to my fellow more experienced Warriors - we do the new folks no good by catering to them on this stuff. I'm guilty of it, too, so no stones in glass houses here. I'm vowing to police myself. Please do the same, if you care at all.

</rant>

An Angry Zeus With Lightning Bolts Locked & Loaded

Dancing Monkeys Wearing Shirts That Are Orange

Believe. Act. Achieve! - dcr Blogs dot Com Blog Archive Dancing Monkeys Wearing Shirts that are Orange

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

You see? This is what happens when you reveal your niche on a public forum. Now you'll never be able to rank for the monkeys!

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hushy

14 years ago

Well as a newbie(n00b) or any other word you want to describe me. The problem I see it is this. You can go through all the signatures on this forum or any other forum and see people are advertising all the information for "free".

So when a newbie asks a question of whether or not to be able to see a site and go from there. It maybe because he is more of a visual person thean trying to read it. Or it might be the way he is asking the question that gets you all upset.

Besides the fact there are many successful IMers out there and there and about 100 times more different people giving advice thean there are succeassful IMers. So for me to ask certain questions about things, I am actually needing advice.

Do I want someone to give me the answers? YES, I do expect an answer. Am I expecting them to do it for me? NO, but a step by step direction would probably help to get to an area where I can start to make money.

Don't forget there are a lot of New people in the business that have zero clue as to what you are talking about when discussing PPC,WSO, SEO, ADSENSE, KEYWORDS, or a host of other phrases you would like to use.

Jason

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hushy

14 years ago

Well as a newbie(n00b) or any other word you want to describe me. The problem I see it is this. You can go through all the signatures on this forum or any other forum and see people are advertising all the information for "free".

So when a newbie asks a question of whether or not to be able to see a site and go from there. It maybe because he is more of a visual person thean trying to read it. Or it might be the way he is asking the question that gets you all upset.

Besides the fact there are many successful IMers out there and there and about 100 times more different people giving advice thean there are succeassful IMers. So for me to ask certain questions about things, I am actually needing advice.

Do I want someone to give me the answers? YES, I do expect an answer. Am I expecting them to do it for me? NO, but a step by step direction would probably help to get to an area where I can start to make money.

Don't forget there are a lot of New people in the business that have zero clue as to what you are talking about when discussing PPC,WSO, SEO, ADSENSE, KEYWORDS, or a host of other phrases you would like to use.

Jason

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tryinhere

14 years ago

I think if information was clearly available newbies maybe would not ask so many questions.

most just want accurate and reliable information to follow. right now it is so confusing with 101 people all giving a Chinese whisper version of what is right and what is not.

my own experience led to pure frustration with this very topic.

I want to fish for my own meal not have the fish placed on the plate, so tell me what fishing gear i need, the best bait and the best waters ? the reply comes back 100 fold all variable with the best answer being well there is no way really, just find a lake , jump in and try and catch a fish with your hands, and when you do lets hope is not a shizzy fish.

if not a gold fish then keep trying to invent ways to catch them, never really got a solid answer on how to catch one, so i can agree with cdarklock where he has spent $ and there are no real answers out there as such people get frustrated and ask, this is not because they are lazy it because of lack of informative accurate information that covers what process is needed.

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

I think if information was clearly available newbies maybe would not ask so many questions.

most just want accurate and reliable information to follow. right now it is so confusing with 101 people all giving a Chinese whisper version of what is right and what is not.

my own experience led to pure frustration with this very topic.

I want to fish for my own meal not have the fish placed on the plate, so tell me what fishing gear i need, the best bait and the best waters ? the reply comes back 100 fold all variable with the best answer being well there is no way really, just find a lake , jump in and try and catch a fish with your hands, and when you do lets hope is not a shizzy fish.

if not a gold fish then keep trying to invent ways to catch them, never really got a solid answer on how to catch one, so i can agree with cdarklock where he has spent $ and there are no real answers out there as such people get frustrated and ask, this is not because they are lazy it because of lack of informative accurate information that covers what process is needed.

First of all, fun fish analogy

Secondly, $ isn't needed to learn this, I didn't spend one cent on market research, except market samurai which is a tool which makes it simple, I can still do it with out. I learnt this all by combining various guru videos and tutorials and then put them together and made a research plan.

If I gave 100 newbies a exact plan on how to make 100,000 a year, maybe a few would try it. Newbies don't want accurate and reliable, they want quick and easy.

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Zeus66 14 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Newbies don't want accurate and reliable, they want quick and easy.

If there's such a thing as a truism in IM, this sentence qualifies. Unfortunately, it's also true for way too many people who aren't newbies any more.

John
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tryinhere

14 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

First of all, fun fish analogy

Secondly, $ isn't needed to learn this, I didn't spend one cent on market research, except market samurai which is a tool which makes it simple, I can still do it with out. I learnt this all by combining various guru videos and tutorials and then put them together and made a research plan.

If I gave 100 newbies a exact plan on how to make 100,000 a year, maybe a few would try it. Newbies don't want accurate and reliable, they want quick and easy.

i will settle for an overview, happy to fish for myself, so any tips on baiting up my rod are welcome.

Thanks
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butters 14 years ago
Originally Posted by tryinhere

i will settle for an overview, happy to fish for myself, so any tips on baiting up my rod are welcome.

Ok so this is how I basically do Market Research & Keyword research since they are so intertwined.   
- Pick a market, (Look at ebay etc for ideas)
-  See how the market is trending
- Look at the sites and see if there is money being made (If so, carry on with research)
-  If money is being made, how? (Note down all the ways the sites are making money, top 10 in google usually)
-   What do people discus in this market (Forums and twitter are a good source, take down top 5 reasons)
- Where are they discussing it
- Why are them topics the top 5
----- Now I move on to do some keyword research -----
- I look at the top 5 topics and start to generate my self a list of keywords around them
- Get the list, narrow down the keywords by searches, I look for exact match 25+ daily searches
- I then take them keywords and look at the top 10 sites in google SEO... PR / DA / BL, is the keyword in the: Title / Desc / Headers / URL
- If I like the looks of the SEO I will continue, if not, dump the keyword. rinse and repeat for all keywords.
- Once I have a list of good keywords I put them each in google and look if the top 3 sites are doing anything different to make money, if so, note it down in the money making section. I also see if they have lists, twitter etc... So I can follow what they do.
---- Back to market research ----
- Keywords have given us our competition, now we look at how well the competition has done over the years. I go to web archives and see how there sites have evolved and note down all dramatic changes.
- I look at how old the domain name is especially since this will tell me how long they been in this market.
- I look at other sites they have and see if any of them relate to the niche, if so, write down what I see fit about them.
- I then take all information and start to plot out how I can make an effective site and how I can incorporate money making methods.
- Pick a product
This is of course a rough outline and could go much more in depth but this is a nice over view. I might of missed something so sorry if I did .
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bravo75

14 years ago

Keyword research is overrated. If you are going to write an article about "article writing", then of course the keywords "article" and "writing" are going to pop up. Same goes for Latent Semantic Indexing. If your article content is semantically distant then you are simply not providing relevant content. It's natural. If you are going to write an article about Brittnay Spears, don't you think it's natural that her name will pop up several times throughout an article alongside terms like pop music, music industry, celebrities, music videos etc. Taking that into consideration, then keywords and LSI are overrated. I think that's what the long haired one meant anyway. Trying to rank for a certain keyword is a different story though. That's where keyword research does come in handy.

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Keyword research is overrated. If you are going to write an article about "article writing", then of course the keywords "article" and "writing" are going to pop up. Same goes for Latent Semantic Indexing. If your article content is semantically distant then you are simply not providing relevant content. It's natural. If you are going to write an article about Brittnay Spears, don't you think it's natural that her name will pop up several times throughout an article alongside terms like pop music, music industry, celebrities, music videos etc. Taking that into consideration, then keywords and LSI are overrated. I think that's what the long haired one meant anyway. Trying to rank for a certain keyword is a different story though. That's where keyword research does come in handy.

Yep and a newbie can rank for "britney spears" "Music" "Article Writing"... Keyword research is a MUST for newbies, especially if they want any sort of google traffic / article traffic.

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bravo75

14 years ago

That's obvious. Of course it will be easier to rank for "Brittnay Spears Purple Knickers In A Twist". That's the point. But as far as content goes, keyword research is overrated. If you write about something, the "keywords" will be there naturally

Originally Posted by butters

Yep and a newbie can rank for "britney spears" "Music" "Article Writing"... Keyword research is a MUST for newbies, especially if they want any sort of google traffic / article traffic.

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

That's obvious. Of course it will be easier to rank for "Brittnay Spears Purple Knickers In A Twist". That's the point. But as far as content goes, keyword research is overrated. If you write about something, the "keywords" will be there naturally

Sure keywords will be there naturally but you could get a lot more traffic if you place specific keywords in there (Which you researched). Once you know them keywords, that allows you to optimize for them, with out that research, your optimizing a guess.

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