26 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
26 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

When Buying is unethical or is it? You tell me.

by Mike Anthony
21 replies
Okay out in the wild (the offline business world) when a competitor buys your product its usually to scope you and your product out.

I recently became aware of a competitor signing up for my membership kind of indirectly. We sell the same kind of service including the same kind of information. I would never buy his product because it would be just too tempting and easy for the information to well lets just say

"pass into my product by osmosis in one way or the other."

I've been very strict about this. I don't buy any of my competitors products. Now I know there are sellers in IM that buy others IM products. I can see that because even a guru (which I am not) doesn't know everything and we can learn from each other but what about when the products are just too similar? Aren't they just there to get ideas for their own product?

TO CLARIFY: HIS PRODUCT IS TO MINE DATA and my product mines the same data.

Isn't it a no brainer to kick the person to the curb? I don't want to be quick to judge but I can't see anything else thats in it for him.

have you ever had one of your customers just buy to create a copy of your product or service? What did you do?
#buying #unethical
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    have you ever had one of your customers just buy to create a copy of your product or service? What did you do?
    What I was already doing: perpetually improving my product.

    I have a head start. So long as I keep moving, my copycat can never catch up. It's the tortoise and the hare; the hare would have won if he didn't stop and take a nap. So I don't stop.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754445].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I have a head start. So long as I keep moving, my copycat can never catch up. It's the tortoise and the hare; the hare would have won if he didn't stop and take a nap. So I don't stop.
      Thanks. Don't you ban him from buying in the future? Or you just love the challenge?
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754459].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Thanks. Don't you ban him from buying in the future? Or you just love the challenge?
        Actually, I want to know where he is.

        If I block him from buying, he'll just go off where I can't see him and hire someone else to buy.

        If I don't, he'll sit there laughing and say "What a doofus! I can still buy his product! He doesn't even try to stop me!" while I observe his every move.

        This is the same reason I think all kinds of distasteful and disgusting things should be legal: so we know who and where the people who do them ARE.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754510].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          Actually, I want to know where he is.

          If I block him from buying, he'll just go off where I can't see him and hire someone else to buy.

          If I don't, he'll sit there laughing and say "What a doofus! I can still buy his product! He doesn't even try to stop me!" while I observe his every move.
          Hmm. Okay that is an interesting perspective.I'll chew on that for awhile and see if I can figure out a way to "observe his every move"
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754546].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author iYingHang
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      What I was already doing: perpetually improving my product.

      I have a head start. So long as I keep moving, my copycat can never catch up. It's the tortoise and the hare; the hare would have won if he didn't stop and take a nap. So I don't stop.
      Yea you are right. Everyone gotta improve themselves. Don't you think those big guys like Apple doesn't have competitors? They do but they upgrade their products!

      Cheers,
      iYingHang
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1762878].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by iYingHang View Post

        Yea you are right. Everyone gotta improve themselves. Don't you think those big guys like Apple doesn't have competitors? They do but they upgrade their products!
        Umm that might be an interesting since a lot of Mac people will tell you MS ripped them off.
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1765058].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
    Hi Mike

    One of the tests of a successful product/enterprise is how many will try to emulate it. It's often unavoidable.

    What you do is continue to improve yours. There are ways to differentiate your product, such as: better value, better quality, better marketing, better customer service etc. And you should also be constantly looking to the market to see how your product/service is measuring up.

    Don't forget that trying to compete isn't the only solution - if there's a competitor with a similar product, you might be able to work together on a joint venture.


    Frank
    Signature


    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754462].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John S. Rhodes
    My opinion, based on more than 3 years of selling
    on the Warrior Forum and beyond...

    First, competitors will always be hunting you. The
    more success you have, the more you will be a
    target in the market. You have to learn to accept
    this and even embrace it. The best things to do:
    • Create products faster
    • Market better
    • Build a following; loyalists
    • Develop "moats" around your core business
    People are always copying us. They are always
    stealing from us. They are trying to figure out
    what we are doing.

    What these folks don't understand is that what
    you see on the surface of our business is less than
    10% of our whole business.

    Sidebar: ALL of our web IM web sites melted down
    last year for more than a month. This put a very
    small dent in our business. We recovered (mostly)
    and our business continues to grow and prosper.

    Second, instead of taking a negative posture about
    your competition you should seek to develop a good
    relationship.
    • Competitors are potential affiliates
    • Competitors help you expand awareness
    • Competitors can be JV partners
    • Competitors might have product YOU can sell
    This list goes on and on. It's smart to find these
    people and work with them, not against them. You
    must break out of the "Us vs. Them" mentality. It
    limits your growth potential.

    Finally, if you're not buying products that are offered
    by your competition you're letting yourself get weak.
    You need them as much as they need you.

    Of course there will be "bleeding" from one product to
    another! This *should* happen. Here's why...

    Give two people EXACTLY the same ideas. The same
    tools. The same system.

    But --

    When a competitor takes that "stuff" and spits it out,
    it's going to be new and different. The same holds
    true for you. We all put a unique spin on information.
    We all have our own experience and opinions.

    I could go on and on about this... but I won't. I'm sure
    you understand.

    To summarize:
    1. There will always be competition; so what?
    2. Turn competition into an opportunity; JVs and partners
    3. Learn from your peers; it's easy to be unique
    ~ John
    Signature

    Important message from John S. Rhodes:
    I think you're awesome.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754463].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by John S. Rhodes View Post

      This list goes on and on. It's smart to find these
      people and work with them, not against them. You
      must break out of the "Us vs. Them" mentality. It
      limits your growth potential.
      John like I said in the OP I completely understand that scenario. Generally in IM there are many opportunities that overlap and I'll do JVs and partner with about 90% of IMers out there. Thats NOT my mindset.

      I think what you says work well for information products and how to etc and ton loads of scenarios. My service mines data. His mines the same data. I dont think all business models favor joint ventures. I don't think you are going to have Dreamhost and Hostgator JV on linux hosting services.

      So believe me I get it generally but I don't think it applies to EVERY situation. Besides in this scenario the buyer is not offering a JV and he's even shown some hostility to how I view our niche (but he obviously likes the service. he's been "subscribing" for months.
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754521].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by John S. Rhodes View Post

      Second, instead of taking a negative posture about your competition you should seek to develop a good

      relationship.
      I have a pair of beliefs that surprise a lot of people, but that I earnestly believe are important.

      1. NOBODY should have more than 40% market share.

      2. EVERYBODY should have at least two competitors.

      When you look at an industry where this is the case, great things are getting done.

      When you look at an industry where NEITHER is the case, nothing is really happening.

      So I like competitors. It means I'm onto something. And as long as they're trying to copy me, it means they're not onto anything.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754547].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author John S. Rhodes
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        So I like competitors. It means I'm onto something. And as long as they're trying to copy me, it means they're not onto anything.
        Amen.

        ~ John
        Signature

        Important message from John S. Rhodes:
        I think you're awesome.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754587].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        Mike,

        If your competitors have (legal) access to the same data as you, your business is always going to be at risk. If any collaboration is out of the question, then you've got to develop or strengthen your USP.

        Are there ways to position your service as the original and best? Are you the go-to guys, the cool kids, in your sector? Is there something you can add to your service that others couldn't easily copy? Could you use the fact that you're being copied as a marketing/positioning advantage?

        A successful business without a USP is just asking to be copied/usurped by a larger, better resourced or more creative competitor.


        Frank
        Signature


        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754617].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    I would personally ignore it unless you see some strong evidence of them grabbing your stuff. I have a few people buying my linkpacks whose email names match usernames on this forum, and I KNOW they are selling links and one of them is a linkbuilding service, so I ahve my suspicions. But why start a war, life's to short to get involved!
    Signature
    CONTENT WRITER. Reliable, UK-Based, 6 Years Experience - ANY NICHE
    Click Here For Writing Samples & Online Ordering
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754603].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      I have a few people buying my linkpacks whose email names match usernames on this forum, and I KNOW they are selling links and one of them is a linkbuilding service, so I ahve my suspicions.
      If I were selling linkbuilding services here, I would want to get everyone else's link packs so I could REMOVE those links from my personal list - because I wouldn't want my clients' investments in those packs devalued. That would be the best thing I could do for my clients.

      Not that I don't think anyone else would just buy the packs and jack the links rather than do research, but it certainly isn't the way I'd do business. And from your end, there's no way to tell which approach someone is using... well, unless you bought the linkbuilding service in question.

      But how would that look?
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754639].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        If I were selling linkbuilding services here, I would want to get everyone else's link packs so I could REMOVE those links from my personal list
        I don't want to make this about my product so I can't respond after this post to specifics but you can't really do that because some subscribers only use one system and you'd be removing perfectly useful and powerful sites from their portfolio. There are ways when doing the research to determine how used some data has been though. Plus that list is ever growing on all sides. Its impossilbe not to offer at least a few that are or will be in the future on someone else's list.

        That fact makes it even easier for the stalker on your list who is in the same biz.

        Anyway I am thinking about your approach of just watching unless I see where he is using the data with a service that would compromise what I said I would try to deliver - some level of exclusivity. Thanks again for the perspective . It was very helpful.
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754726].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      and I KNOW they are selling links and one of them is a linkbuilding service, so I ahve my suspicions. But why start a war, life's to short to get involved!
      Well I was trying not to get too specific with the product but I do have to say goodbye to linkbuilding services. Sure they can always circumvent the rules and even buy again but I did promise my customers limited distribution and I have to at least try and deliver.

      So I might get blasted for not being open but I made a promise on my side and I try to keep it. I have some tricks up my sleeve so its not totally futile. That single service can represent hundreds of users with a link building service and yes this person also seems to offer it and thats a concern as well.
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754656].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ChrisBa
    I've had this as well, in the end - if they want in they are going to get in, there are far too many ways around it - proxies, etc..

    Just focus on building your product better
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1754866].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    There's ways to market the exact same product in a totally different way.

    For example, your linkbuilding services... there's a way that you can market those services that will shut every single competitor you have OUT (for the people who know what value is, that is).

    You just have to find that angle.

    And, that's the goal in marketing ANY product or service. Perhaps, the other person offers the same thing, same result.. but they never actually say anything about that particular point-- they assume the end user already knows their service includes that result. What if you SPELL IT OUT and make a point about it? That sets you apart from the other guy... you told the person, the other guy didn't. You may have the exact same thing, but if you explained it better (ie marketed it better), you get the business.. he doesn't.

    That was probably confusing, wasn't it?

    Warmly,

    Brandi
    Signature
    My niche is feeding my family... What's yours?
    http://www.DoOrDieMarketing.com
    Watch Us as We Do It Or D.IE... Are you Along For The Ride
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1755059].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      There's ways to market the exact same product in a totally different way.

      For example, your linkbuilding services... there's a way that you can market those services that will shut every single competitor you have OUT (for the people who know what value is, that is).
      Hi Brandy. I got you but I'm not really concerned with marketing. thats gone decently enough. I'm not sure once you do get an influx of users in how you can lock people out. I actually don't do auto signups, I do a little checking into background (not FBI or pull credit lol) etc.

      How can you lock someone out of something they consider valuable enough to to get?



      That sets you apart from the other guy... you told the person, the other guy didn't. You may have the exact same thing, but if you explained it better (ie marketed it better), you get the business.. he doesn't.

      That was probably confusing, wasn't it?
      Not really. I get you but I have done that. I may offer the same kinds of data (not exact) but I took it beyond that into a full fledged application and service not just an info packet so I think I distinguished it pretty well. At the end of the day though the data itself IS valuable and I can't see how you can lock out someone willing to spend to get it. Let me know what you had in mind.
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1755112].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Hi Brandy. I got you but I'm not really concerned with marketing. thats gone decently enough. I'm not sure once you do get an influx of users in how you can lock people out. I actually don't do auto signups, I do a little checking into background (not FBI or pull credit lol) etc.

        How can you lock someone out of something they consider valuable enough to to get?





        Not really. I get you but I have done that. I may offer the same kinds of data (not exact) but I took it beyond that into a full fledged application and service not just an info packet so I think I distinguished it pretty well. At the end of the day though the data itself IS valuable and I can't see how you can lock out someone willing to spend to get it. Let me know what you had in mind.
        I would never, ever lock them out. Ever.

        It's an extra XX in your pocket book

        I totally agree with what Mr. CDarklock said earlier...

        EVERYONE should have competition. Why? That's the only way something (a product or service) improves! If you have no competition, you tend to become stagnant.

        Now you just need to return his favor-- subscribe to his service (yup, I'm serious!) Seriously, this is an OPPORTUNITY, not a stumbling block!

        If I have a competitor in my market, I totally scope them out and see what they are doing and what I can do to one-up them OR market my existinb product/service in a way that adds more value than theirs.

        Don't block the guy. Encourage him! Join his service.

        What's that saying... "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"?

        Use it to catapult you to the top... or if you are there... use it to keep you on your toes and remind you that there's someone there, at the ready, to swoop down, get your market and take the #1 spot.

        Warmly,

        Brandi
        Signature
        My niche is feeding my family... What's yours?
        http://www.DoOrDieMarketing.com
        Watch Us as We Do It Or D.IE... Are you Along For The Ride
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1755162].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    I've decided on the advice of you guys that I'll let him stay. Like some said it is a form of flattery that he's " in the biz" and still wants to have my product.

    Now all I have to do is get him to say somewhere that its the best he's ever used. LOL!
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[1762865].message }}

Trending Topics