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Not sure how to handle an outsourcing issue

by grayambition
30 replies
I'm frustrated.

I just outsourced my first set of articles. I used someone from the Warrior Forum who has gotten outstanding reviews, I mean NOT ONE negative review - they're all GLOWING!

I'm going to go out of my way here to avoid identifying the writer, but if moderators feel I'm doing anything out of line by talking about this, please feel free to delete.

Anyway, I sent my list of keywords/articles and figured I was in good hands. The initial communications were great; emails were responded to within a day. Then... nothing for 5 days. I wasn't terribly upset with that, although the timeline was supposed to be shorter and I had asked to get the articles as they were completed, which didn't happen. I emailed the writer requesting an update, and received 8 of the 16 articles.

Here's the real problem. Several of the articles are (at least in my opinion) virtually unusable. I'm not a complainer. Sure, I can be a bit of a stickler for grammar and syntax, but I fully expected to have to correct some of that. Not a big deal. But the problem goes way beyond that.

First, a lot of the language is incredibly awkward and stilted. (Yes, I do realize that's a subjective opinion). I was surprised, as I HAD looked at a few samples.

Second, the articles were keyword stuffed (at least one instance per paragraph in 500 word articles), and keywords were added in an unnatural manner.

Examples of awkward word usage: "Big bandwidth space also means that a bigger number of users can visit your website without crashing"
"If your website turns out first on the search engine," (am I expecting too much for a native English speaker to know that this isn't the way people writer or talk)?

Example of keyword stuffing and muddy writing: "Owners of virtual dedicated hosting or virtual private server hosting are typically given around 500 to 3000 gigabytes for web space, which leaves them a lot of room to pretty much customize their websites the way they like them. This makes virtual dedicated hosting or virtual private server hosting an attractive option for many business-minded web administrators, as it gives them a lot of allowance to really advertise their products without the constraint of server space."

These 2 keyword phrases (virtual dedicated hosting, and virtual private server hosting) are repeated in precisely this sequence at least once in every paragraph.

Third, and most egregious, at least 30% of the information was factually incorrect and/or did not conform to the instruction I had given.

Examples:

In an article on reseller hosting: "While the major difference between Windows reseller hosting and cPanel reseller hosting is the platform" Huh? When did cPanel turn into a platform?

In an article comparing Bluehost to Hostgator:

"The best web site hosting of course would be free and not require a monthly fee, but usually, you compromise your site's domain name when you opt for a completely free site"

About dedicated hosting (this paragraph makes no sense to me):
"If you own a business and would really like to expand it through online advertising, you may as well invest in virtual dedicated hosting or private server hosting. This is indeed a great option for entrepreneurs and businesspeople as it gives them flexibility on how to design and customize their websites to make the most profit or sales."

In an article on Fantastico, the writer neglected to mention Wordpress installs as one of its tools. C'mon!

The writer confused websites and hosting (using both interchangeably), didn't seem to understand dedicated hosting or bandwidth, etc. etc.

And (last example, I promise), for a comparison of Bluehost and Hostgator, I specifically instructed the writer to compare apples to apples, comparing Hostgator's Baby plan to a similar Bluehost plan. Instead, the writer compared Bluehost's unlmited plan to Hostgator's plan that allows you to host only one domain, and came up with this muddled conclusion: "In terms of service, we like Hostgator's flexibility over Bluehost. If you do not plan to create a big website yet then it is better to go for a smaller, shared domain which would work quite as well. But if you're looking for sheer reliability and security, Bluehost is also a good choice with its wide range of options for putting up your website." Aarrgghh!

OK. Sorry that was so long, but wanted to give you an idea of what I got. Here are my questions.

1. What level of competence should I expect in a writer? I know that's an open-ended question, and I realize no one is perfect. To be more precise, if a writer has garnered pages of exceptional feedback in here, should I still have to train that person? Writers, what kind of instructions do you expect beyond keywords/article titles and notes on specific items to include in the articles?

2. How much research should be expected? I realize there are a lot of variables here. But here's what I expect, and please tell me if you think I'm way off the mark. If I give a writer a set of keywords/article titles and that person tells me it's not problem and asks no further questions about the topics, I assume that the writer either knows the subject or knows how to research it. At the very least, I would expect the writer to tell me if he/she doesn't understand something and ask for assistance.

3. How much rewriting should I have to do? I didn't expect to get the articles back and just be able to plunk them onto my site (although that would have been terrific), but I DID outsource to save time, which has definitely NOT turned out to be the case.

4. What would you do at this point? I'm still expecting 6 articles, and there are another 4 for which I haven't submitted keywords. I guess I could find out how many of the 6 articles the writer has completed, and cut it off there. But if the writer's already done some research for the additional articles, am I obligated to let the writer proceed?

For the writers out there, how much responsibility do you take for being factually correct? Do you ever kind of "fudge" the facts when you're not sure? (I'm really not trying to be insulting; I just want to know what's considered acceptable). And if you're not clear about a particular topic, how do you handle it?

I want to be clear that I take full responsibility here, and that I've learned a lot in terms of how to communicate with writers in the future. I'm not trying to start an argument or war. I just want to get out of this as gracefully as possible.

I paid half up front for a 20 article order. Do you feel I'm responsible for paying for the additional 10 articles even if I choose not to have the writer complete them?

I realize my questions may not be entirely clear, because I'm feeling kinda muddled about the situation. Any feedback you have will be greatly appreciated. And for those of you who actually read through this tome, you have my gratitude (and sympathy).
#handle #issue #outsourcing #writers
  • Profile picture of the author Mark Blaze
    Im guessing we used the same people (i used 'them' a few weeks ago and got a refund).

    They outsource all their articles to someone else and yet advertise themselves as a UK writer! Not right at all... but looks like they are struggling for business at the moment because of their influx of threads offering cheaper and cheaper article writing services.

    Mark Blaze
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  • Profile picture of the author GSX Enterprises
    They may be using article spinning software which I've had the unfortunate opportunity of running into outsourcers like this. Honestly, try and talk with them and work something out, if not, lesson learned. I always give outsourcers a trial run before making a big order for this precise reason, then you're only out $3 or $4

    -Safe Travels
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    • Profile picture of the author howinfo
      I have used website called Guru for my articles, I usually pay $ 20 -30 for an article, as I saw some of the prices offered for an article in this forum It made me wonder how they can do it so cheap $ 5 -10 per article. Just to research the topic alone would take two three hours and then at least another hour or two writing it, it will give a writer a hourly income about $ 2 Who would bother to work for that sort of money?:confused:
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      1. What level of competence should I expect in a writer? I know that's an open-ended question, and I realize no one is perfect. To be more precise, if a writer has garnered pages of exceptional feedback in here, should I still have to train that person? Writers, what kind of instructions do you expect beyond keywords/article titles and notes on specific items to include in the articles? I'm afraid that most of the time there may be further training needed. Every single client has different requirements and it does take a certain amount of getting used to each other to get it right, sometimes. Any additional information can be helpful at times, but it all depends on the topic and what is desired.

      2. How much research should be expected? I realize there are a lot of variables here. But here's what I expect, and please tell me if you think I'm way off the mark. If I give a writer a set of keywords/article titles and that person tells me it's not problem and asks no further questions about the topics, I assume that the writer either knows the subject or knows how to research it. At the very least, I would expect the writer to tell me if he/she doesn't understand something and ask for assistance. This is the one area that is often affected by how much you pay. Not always, mind you, but often. For example, if you pay someone $6 for an article, do you really expect them to have time to do in-depth research? On the other hand, the writer should be able to tell the topic will take too much time and price accordingly most of the time - or at least be up front with the client that they won't be spending much time researching.

      3. How much rewriting should I have to do? I didn't expect to get the articles back and just be able to plunk them onto my site (although that would have been terrific), but I DID outsource to save time, which has definitely NOT turned out to be the case. You should not have to do any rewriting, ideally, but since no one is perfect, an occasional edit or rewording to add your own voice is expected. Anything else should be done by the writer, if they did not meet your stated requirements. Unfortunately, anything that you didn't tell them is your responsibility.

      4. What would you do at this point? I'm still expecting 6 articles, and there are another 4 for which I haven't submitted keywords. I guess I could find out how many of the 6 articles the writer has completed, and cut it off there. But if the writer's already done some research for the additional articles, am I obligated to let the writer proceed? No you are not obligated and in this case, it doesn't sound like they did much, if any, research to begin with. You should be asking for these to be fixed, at least, but it will be according to the terms of the offer. Some offer revisions and guarantees but others don't. There is nothing wrong with telling them you wish to cancel the remaining order and tell them exactly why.

      For the writers out there, how much responsibility do you take for being factually correct? I research carefully and get my information from multiple sources to ensure that my facts are accurate. As the head of a team of writers, if my writers produce inaccurate work, I personally fix errors, whether I catch them or the client does. Do you ever kind of "fudge" the facts when you're not sure? Absolutely not!(I'm really not trying to be insulting; I just want to know what's considered acceptable). And if you're not clear about a particular topic, how do you handle it? If I'm not clear, I ask questions. I've outsourced enough to realize that not all writers do that, however. When you order, you need to give the writer clear directions as to what you want.
      You will likely get a variety of answers but this is one writer's point of view, at least.

      Tina
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  • Profile picture of the author SirHarrrison
    I have never used the warrior forum for outsourcing help, i use getafreelancer its a great site and has man,many users. In my experience i have found not to do business with people who are in the same business. It always turns out screwy.

    As for those articles i'm sorry, that happens a lot, sounds like a rookie writer who doesn't know how to properly pack there keywords.
    I always have GAF in my resource box because it is that useful and i don't want anybody else to go through the same crap i went through with poor freelance writer(which seems to be what you're going through)
    It is free and great, but look around for the gold members and the well priced Americans who know their English. There are a lot of foreigners on the site who claim to write in fluent English.
    The truth of it is they can't. Post exactly what you want and wait for the best bid.

    Best of luck to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      When you specify the keywords - you can also state exactly how often they are to be used. You can say "once in first paragraph, once in middle and once in last paragraph" - and that's clear.

      I do think it's asking a lot for a writer to have to email each article to you as it's completed. I know I often do no proofing until I finish a job and sending 16 separate emails is time consuming for a writer.

      When using a new writer, ask him to send the first article draft to you and that will give you an idea of what the articles will be like. Also, if you already have good articles on the general topic - it may help to send the link to those to the writer so he has an idea of what you expect.

      Some of the text you quoted as examples is not atypical of what to expect from lower priced articles. As stated above - there's no room for significant research at the low priced end.

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      • Profile picture of the author grayambition
        Kay - You're absolutely right about specifying keyword density, and I'll know better next time! I'll know better about a lot of this. The reason I didn't do it this time, and the reason I went with 20 articles right off the bat, was because of the literally pages of glowing reviews, which included repeated assurances from the writer that made me think he/she knew at least basic SEO. Believe me, I've learned.

        And re "I do think it's asking a lot for a writer to have to email each article to you as it's completed." - That's not what I did. (I didn't go into details because the post was already so long). To clarify, I didn't make any special delivery requests until I hadn't heard anything for 5 days, at which point I asked the writer to send me articles in batches as they were completed, rather than waiting until the whole project was complete. I understand what it takes to be a writer; I used to write computer books, and have worked as a tech writer and paid blog contributor. So I get it. On the other hand, I always had to meet deadlines and submit interim work. For a book, that might be a chapter at a time. But deadlines and pressure are part of the game.

        "Some of the text you quoted as examples is not atypical of what to expect from lower priced articles. As stated above - there's no room for significant research at the low priced end." OK, I'll buy that may be a reason for the bad writing (although I'll never understand how people who can't write make livings as writers). But as for the factual errors, sure, there may be no room for significant research. But does that mean it's then ok to write whatever nonsense you think might fit? I don't expect miracles. If someone says they can do it, do it. Or ask questions. That's it. I could have fixed bad writing in 5 minutes, but fixing the jumbled facts took a lot more time.

        And yes, these articles were at the lower end of the price range, but they're not $4 or $5 articles. More like twice that.

        And even if the articles were $4 each, it's still a matter of a person promising a service they can't deliver.

        All I expect is for people to do what they say they can do. And at the same time, I'm fully aware that's a naive and foolish expectation. :rolleyes:

        Thanks so much Kay, and everyone else, for your well-considered feedback!!
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  • Profile picture of the author dougp
    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post

    I'm frustrated.

    I just outsourced my first set of articles. I used someone from the Warrior Forum who has gotten outstanding reviews, I mean NOT ONE negative review - they're all GLOWING!

    I'm going to go out of my way here to avoid identifying the writer, but if moderators feel I'm doing anything out of line by talking about this, please feel free to delete.

    Anyway, I sent my list of keywords/articles and figured I was in good hands. The initial communications were great; emails were responded to within a day. Then... nothing for 5 days. I wasn't terribly upset with that, although the timeline was supposed to be shorter and I had asked to get the articles as they were completed, which didn't happen. I emailed the writer requesting an update, and received 8 of the 16 articles.

    Here's the real problem. Several of the articles are (at least in my opinion) virtually unusable. I'm not a complainer. Sure, I can be a bit of a stickler for grammar and syntax, but I fully expected to have to correct some of that. Not a big deal. But the problem goes way beyond that.

    First, a lot of the language is incredibly awkward and stilted. (Yes, I do realize that's a subjective opinion). I was surprised, as I HAD looked at a few samples.

    Second, the articles were keyword stuffed (at least one instance per paragraph in 500 word articles), and keywords were added in an unnatural manner.

    Examples of awkward word usage: "Big bandwidth space also means that a bigger number of users can visit your website without crashing"
    "If your website turns out first on the search engine," (am I expecting too much for a native English speaker to know that this isn't the way people writer or talk)?

    Example of keyword stuffing and muddy writing: "Owners of virtual dedicated hosting or virtual private server hosting are typically given around 500 to 3000 gigabytes for web space, which leaves them a lot of room to pretty much customize their websites the way they like them. This makes virtual dedicated hosting or virtual private server hosting an attractive option for many business-minded web administrators, as it gives them a lot of allowance to really advertise their products without the constraint of server space."

    These 2 keyword phrases (virtual dedicated hosting, and virtual private server hosting) are repeated in precisely this sequence at least once in every paragraph.

    Third, and most egregious, at least 30% of the information was factually incorrect and/or did not conform to the instruction I had given.

    Examples:

    In an article on reseller hosting: "While the major difference between Windows reseller hosting and cPanel reseller hosting is the platform" Huh? When did cPanel turn into a platform?

    In an article comparing Bluehost to Hostgator:

    "The best web site hosting of course would be free and not require a monthly fee, but usually, you compromise your site's domain name when you opt for a completely free site"

    About dedicated hosting (this paragraph makes no sense to me):
    "If you own a business and would really like to expand it through online advertising, you may as well invest in virtual dedicated hosting or private server hosting. This is indeed a great option for entrepreneurs and businesspeople as it gives them flexibility on how to design and customize their websites to make the most profit or sales."

    In an article on Fantastico, the writer neglected to mention Wordpress installs as one of its tools. C'mon!

    The writer confused websites and hosting (using both interchangeably), didn't seem to understand dedicated hosting or bandwidth, etc. etc.

    And (last example, I promise), for a comparison of Bluehost and Hostgator, I specifically instructed the writer to compare apples to apples, comparing Hostgator's Baby plan to a similar Bluehost plan. Instead, the writer compared Bluehost's unlmited plan to Hostgator's plan that allows you to host only one domain, and came up with this muddled conclusion: "In terms of service, we like Hostgator's flexibility over Bluehost. If you do not plan to create a big website yet then it is better to go for a smaller, shared domain which would work quite as well. But if you're looking for sheer reliability and security, Bluehost is also a good choice with its wide range of options for putting up your website." Aarrgghh!

    OK. Sorry that was so long, but wanted to give you an idea of what I got. Here are my questions.

    1. What level of competence should I expect in a writer? I know that's an open-ended question, and I realize no one is perfect. To be more precise, if a writer has garnered pages of exceptional feedback in here, should I still have to train that person? Writers, what kind of instructions do you expect beyond keywords/article titles and notes on specific items to include in the articles?

    2. How much research should be expected? I realize there are a lot of variables here. But here's what I expect, and please tell me if you think I'm way off the mark. If I give a writer a set of keywords/article titles and that person tells me it's not problem and asks no further questions about the topics, I assume that the writer either knows the subject or knows how to research it. At the very least, I would expect the writer to tell me if he/she doesn't understand something and ask for assistance.

    3. How much rewriting should I have to do? I didn't expect to get the articles back and just be able to plunk them onto my site (although that would have been terrific), but I DID outsource to save time, which has definitely NOT turned out to be the case.

    4. What would you do at this point? I'm still expecting 6 articles, and there are another 4 for which I haven't submitted keywords. I guess I could find out how many of the 6 articles the writer has completed, and cut it off there. But if the writer's already done some research for the additional articles, am I obligated to let the writer proceed?

    For the writers out there, how much responsibility do you take for being factually correct? Do you ever kind of "fudge" the facts when you're not sure? (I'm really not trying to be insulting; I just want to know what's considered acceptable). And if you're not clear about a particular topic, how do you handle it?

    I want to be clear that I take full responsibility here, and that I've learned a lot in terms of how to communicate with writers in the future. I'm not trying to start an argument or war. I just want to get out of this as gracefully as possible.

    I paid half up front for a 20 article order. Do you feel I'm responsible for paying for the additional 10 articles even if I choose not to have the writer complete them?

    I realize my questions may not be entirely clear, because I'm feeling kinda muddled about the situation. Any feedback you have will be greatly appreciated. And for those of you who actually read through this tome, you have my gratitude (and sympathy).
    That can happen at times when your outsourcing. Bare in mind, we're in an industry that constantly recommend content from article spinners to generate traffic and perhaps your content was a result of that. I never understood the hype with article spinners as you will never build a long term reputable site off of spun content, sorry its not possible. I would recommend finding a couple of individual article writers. I never deal with freelancers that farm out my work to other freelancers.

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  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    I think I can take a wild stab in the dark as to what might have happened here.

    My guess is the person you hired has found themselves with more work than they can handle due to the good feedback they have received so far. My guess is that they have then tried to expand their business to accommodate demand. Instead of raising their prices, they may have found cheaper writers to delegate some of the work ordered to, but those cheaper writers have then turned out not be up to the standards they have set for their service. Just a guess.

    If this is the case, the person you hired may or may not be aware of the standard of the articles created for you. Regardless, if they were going to outsource the work you were entitled to be advised.

    I do also think that you are entitled to a base level of quality that is in line with the amount you paid. At the same time, whatever the amount paid was, if your brief was agreed to the work should deliver on it.

    In my own writing service my philosophy is that once you agree to a brief it is your responsibility to make sure you deliver on it. If you have questions on a brief or you feel it is outside the scope of your offer, you need to bring up any issues prior to accepting a job. Once a project is outlined, accepted and paid for that's it, you need do what you have said you will do.

    I would still see if you can get the contractor to deliver on what you have asked of him/her however. You may find that when you bring the issue to their attention and point out that what you received is not in line with what was agreed upon, they may still work to bring the writing up to scratch.

    Regarding how much research should be expected, did they advise what is included in their service description? If so then again, they should ensure that they deliver on whatever they advised they would do for you. If not, the articles should at bare minimum be factually correct. I think it is fair to assume that any non-fiction writing work will be fact checked.

    As a writer myself, I believe it is your responsibility to be as factually correct as you can be, and if there is some ambiguity to any topic, then you need to mention that in your content. For example, "Some experts believe _________, however there is much debate and other people state ________."

    Just being plain wrong without so much as a Google search is not on though.

    All in all, if it were me I would give the writer a chance and ask them to bring the articles in line with the quality that was advertised and the brief that was agreed to. If they can, in the end, deliver you with a satisfactory service perhaps you will still feel inclined to pay them the remaining 50%. If they don't wish to proof and edit the articles for you, I think it would be fair to say you are entitled to withhold funds proportionate to the agreed service that was withheld.

    Good luck with sorting everything out, and I hope you won't hold this against the other Warriors who freelance on the forum. There are a great many superb professionals here who offer fantastic services and always deliver. Perhaps even this person may come through once they are fully aware of the issues. I hope so!
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    • Profile picture of the author reapr
      I had a similar situation several months ago. The articles looked like they were spun; they had wrong synonym choices, but they did pass copy scape. Considering how lackluster my writing skills are I was extremely disappointed and just wrote it off as a learnin' lesson after several email exchanges. I have been writing and spinning my own since.

      Keyword density is overrated/underrated depending on the niche and often misunderstood. I always suggest keeping it under 2% unless you really know the niche your targeting inside and out and you will find some niches as high as 9% when researching the only results that matter ... the first page of Google. Something to consider along with LSI.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marx Vergel Melencio
    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    [SNIP]Here's the real problem. Several of the articles are (at least in my opinion) virtually unusable.[/SNIP]

    [SNIP]First, a lot of the language is incredibly awkward and stilted.[/SNIP]

    [SNIP]Second, the articles were keyword stuffed (at least one instance per paragraph in 500 word articles), and keywords were added in an unnatural manner.[/SNIP]

    [SNIP]Examples of awkward word usage: "Big bandwidth space also means that a bigger number of users can visit your website without crashing"
    "If your website turns out first on the search engine,"[/SNIP]

    [SNIP]Example of keyword stuffing and muddy writing: "Owners of virtual dedicated hosting or virtual private server hosting are typically given around 500 to 3000 gigabytes for web space, which leaves them a lot of room to pretty much customize their websites the way they like them. This makes virtual dedicated hosting or virtual private server hosting an attractive option for many business-minded web administrators, as it gives them a lot of allowance to really advertise their products without the constraint of server space."

    These 2 keyword phrases (virtual dedicated hosting, and virtual private server hosting) are repeated in precisely this sequence at least once in every paragraph.[/SNIP]

    [SNIP]Third, and most egregious, at least 30% of the information was factually incorrect and/or did not conform to the instruction I had given.[/SNIP]

    [SNIP]The writer confused websites and hosting (using both interchangeably), didn't seem to understand dedicated hosting or bandwidth, etc. etc.[/SNIP]


    Believe that was bound to happen. You most likely sent tasks to someone who possibly knows nothing about such topics (instead of asking a person with specialized knowledge and experience in similar subjects). And, of course this person should have knowledge and experience in writing for your target readers.

    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    1. What level of competence should I expect in a writer? I know that's an open-ended question, and I realize no one is perfect. To be more precise, if a writer has garnered pages of exceptional feedback in here, should I still have to train that person? Writers, what kind of instructions do you expect beyond keywords/article titles and notes on specific items to include in the articles?
    For writers ("writers" = people trained, knowledgeable and experienced in research & writing) with specialized knowledge and experience in particular subjects, I expect great quality content from them if the topics were relevant to their expertise.

    For subjects outside their expertise, I expect good quality content from them if they have great research and writing skills, knowledge and experience, or even great quality content though I reckon it'd take them more time to do so.

    People have different SEO beliefs, especially when it comes to keyword content placement. I suggest you provide specific instructions for this (something like = main keyword between 1st and 20th word per 100-word block; 1st relevant keyword = between 21st to 50th word per 100-word block, 2nd relevant keyword = between 51st and 100th word per 100-word block).


    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    2. How much research should be expected? I realize there are a lot of variables here. But here's what I expect, and please tell me if you think I'm way off the mark. If I give a writer a set of keywords/article titles and that person tells me it's not problem and asks no further questions about the topics, I assume that the writer either knows the subject or knows how to research it. At the very least, I would expect the writer to tell me if he/she doesn't understand something and ask for assistance.
    More time for subjects beyond the writer's expertise. Most would know how to research such topics, but of course the only things which'd guarantee quality and technical accuracy = their comprehension and analytical skills as well as the time they need to completely understand stuff they know nothing (to little) about.

    In this case, it's most likely they wouldn't want to lose the business your bringing in by asking you a lot of questions or even honestly telling you they can't do it.

    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    3. How much rewriting should I have to do? I didn't expect to get the articles back and just be able to plunk them onto my site (although that would have been terrific), but I DID outsource to save time, which has definitely NOT turned out to be the case.
    The least possible rewriting. If you provide samples outlining writing style, approach and content richness, then you'd possibly reduce rewriting work by 80%.

    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    4. What would you do at this point? I'm still expecting 6 articles, and there are another 4 for which I haven't submitted keywords. I guess I could find out how many of the 6 articles the writer has completed, and cut it off there. But if the writer's already done some research for the additional articles, am I obligated to let the writer proceed?
    You aren't.

    I'd ask for all completed work, pay them for acceptable stuff and hire someone "better" to rewrite their content.

    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    [SNIP] For the writers out there, how much responsibility do you take for being factually correct? Do you ever kind of "fudge" the facts when you're not sure? (I'm really not trying to be insulting; I just want to know what's considered acceptable).[/SNIP]
    Hmmm... I tend to "fudge the facts" when writing fiction.

    ...but in this case: no, and I for one take full responsibility in validating the factual accuracy of non-fiction stuff I write.


    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    [SNIP]And if you're not clear about a particular topic, how do you handle it?[/SNIP]
    I'd ask Google first, then people I know with expertise in the subjects, and next = reporting to the buyer what I've done to bounce ideas until we finalize things (hey, if someone hires me to write something, of course I'd know research and completely understanding relevant stuff are prerequisites of the larger task).

    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post


    [SNIP]I paid half up front for a 20 article order. Do you feel I'm responsible for paying for the additional 10 articles even if I choose not to have the writer complete them?[/SNIP]
    IMO, if you tell the writer to stop and just send everything that's been done, you can review the content then just pay for acceptable stuff (of course clearly detailing why some articles aren't).
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  • Profile picture of the author Dhira
    SOunds like spinners were used or synonym replacements with generic text.


    Get your money back IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
    Originally Posted by grayambition View Post

    I'm frustrated.

    I just outsourced my first set of articles.

    Third, and most egregious, at least 30% of the information was factually incorrect

    For the writers out there, how much responsibility do you take for being factually correct? Do you ever kind of "fudge" the facts when you're not sure?
    Sorry to hear you've had such a rough experience!

    Factually correct? That's a deal breaker, in my opinion. There's no reason to fudge the facts. If they're unclear about something, leave it out. My sites are animal related, and I have to stand behind that content. It reflects badly on me if there's something wrong and at worst, it may give people the wrong idea about their pet's well being.

    I have only ever outsourced articles for my own sites when I'm too busy writing for other clients. I've found that everyone who has helped me has done fine, I just sometimes have to tidy them up a little. That's only because they don't sound like me

    You've paid for half the articles, and so far that's all you've got. I'd be inclined to let the writer know that you don't want him to finish your order, and leave it at that. Alternatively, I like the other suggestion that if they have done your articles (and that sounds like a long shot), offer to pay for what meets your standards.
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  • Profile picture of the author Minte
    Give them feedback and try to get your money back
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    • Profile picture of the author grayambition
      Thanks for all the fabulous feedback, everyone!

      Based on my experience and the feedback in this thread, I hereby submit my Warrior Writers Outsourcing Manifesto. Feel free to make additions, suggestions, throw rotten tomatoes.... On second thought, no tomatoes please

      (I'm calling this the Warrior Writers Manifesto to be kinda silly and alliterative, but of course everything here applies to hiring writers from other venues).

      Hope this keeps a few folks from falling into the trap that I and other unwary warriors have fallen prey to!

      ------------

      1. Never hire a writer based solely on their reputation, feedback, or reviews. Even if the entire Warrior membership sings the writer's praises, that doesn't mean he or she is the right writer for you.

      2. Never get sucked in by a writer's sales pitch. It's just that. A pitch.

      3. Always ask to look at writing samples. Ideally, the samples should be in a format similar to what you want. If you want articles, get article sample. If you want reviews, get samples of those. If you want an ebook... well, you get the idea.

      4. Always ask if the writer is a native English speaker (if that's any kind of an issue for you).

      5. Always ask if the writer will be personally doing the work.

      6. If the writing will be outsourced, get the following information:
      - Are all writers native English speakers (maybe it doesn't matter to you, but you should know)
      - What kind of quality control takes place?
      - Does the "head" writer proof all articles?
      - Who makes edits, if required

      7. Always place an initial order for ONE article and use that article to determine whether the writer meets your needs. Don't start with a package of 10 or 20 articles, no matter how attractive the discount may be.

      8. If possible, provide the writer with samples of articles on the topic and in the style you want. Or at least write a few paragraphs to give the writer an idea of your style.

      10. Don't make assumptions.

      11. Under the heading "don't assume," specifically instruct the writer NOT to use a spinner (unless of course that's part of your project).

      12. Be clear about your expectations regarding SEO and keyword density. There's debate on this topic; again, the important thing is to make your expectations clear. Yes, you should be this specific (if it's important to you): "Try to use the keyword once within the first 20 words, then once in the second paragraph and once in the final paragraph. Don't use the keyword more than 4 times in a 500 word article unless you don't see a way to make the writing flow naturally without using it." Of course, you don't have to use my example; replace it with whatever kw density formula you choose.

      13. Confirm the timeline for project completion and agree about intervals at which communication and updates should take place. The writer might think it's fine to accept your work and disappear into a cave for 10 days, while you're expecting regular updates and draft in two days.

      14. Speaking of drafts, make sure you get them, at least until you've worked with the writer enough to know that you instructions will be followed. Find out upfront if the writer will be willing to make edits, and if so, how many.

      15. Confirm research expectations. Even if the writer says that he or she can write about a particular topic, find out if it's an area they're already familiar with. If it's not, ask how they plan to research it and how much research do they expect to do. Yes, this is often related to price - you won't get as much research for a cheaper article, but the point is to make sure you're both on the same page. And whether the writer is doing research or not, instruct him or her to ask you questions or simply not write about anything that's unclear. Tell them that leaving information out is preferable to misstating facts or writing muddled or confusing conclusions.

      16. Encourage the writer to communicate any questions, problems or issues.

      17. Be very clear about what constitutes an acceptable end product for you.

      The key to most of the above is communication. Ask questions and make yourself clear at the beginning, and you'll be more likely to end up with a product that pleases you. Keep in mind that the writer would much prefer to give you a product you're happy with. If you're not happy, you're not going to be a repeat customer.

      Well, I was gonna do a top 10, but hey, top 17 has kind of a ring to it, doesn't it?
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      • Profile picture of the author Han Fan
        What a great list..


        Been a unique article wizard article writing provider... I have seem a lot of issue can resolved by simply clarify on communication..

        When a client email you, don't panic.. Just explain, to get great quality it takes time to research and writing... to ensure the quality we are going to take couple more days...

        If client gets nasty, stop the writing and refund the money. It's just not worth your time, to work with someone who is difficult.. he/she is going to be trouble later on anyway, so save you both the trouble, refund the money and dis-continue the business relationship... some of them actually come back to you, because they know they can't get your quality of service anyway else.... Serve the people who loves you... Life is to short... and Time is limited...

        Now I am talking about get it done in timely fashion, not turn into a 2-3 days of assignment into 3 month project...

        So far, everyone has been very happy and understanding...

        Han Fan the Article Man.




        Originally Posted by grayambition View Post

        Thanks for all the fabulous feedback, everyone!

        Based on my experience and the feedback in this thread, I hereby submit my Warrior Writers Outsourcing Manifesto. Feel free to make additions, suggestions, throw rotten tomatoes.... On second thought, no tomatoes please

        (I'm calling this the Warrior Writers Manifesto to be kinda silly and alliterative, but of course everything here applies to hiring writers from other venues).

        Hope this keeps a few folks from falling into the trap that I and other unwary warriors have fallen prey to!

        ------------

        1. Never hire a writer based solely on their reputation, feedback, or reviews. Even if the entire Warrior membership sings the writer's praises, that doesn't mean he or she is the right writer for you.

        2. Never get sucked in by a writer's sales pitch. It's just that. A pitch.

        3. Always ask to look at writing samples. Ideally, the samples should be in a format similar to what you want. If you want articles, get article sample. If you want reviews, get samples of those. If you want an ebook... well, you get the idea.

        4. Always ask if the writer is a native English speaker (if that's any kind of an issue for you).

        5. Always ask if the writer will be personally doing the work.

        6. If the writing will be outsourced, get the following information:
        - Are all writers native English speakers (maybe it doesn't matter to you, but you should know)
        - What kind of quality control takes place?
        - Does the "head" writer proof all articles?
        - Who makes edits, if required

        7. Always place an initial order for ONE article and use that article to determine whether the writer meets your needs. Don't start with a package of 10 or 20 articles, no matter how attractive the discount may be.

        8. If possible, provide the writer with samples of articles on the topic and in the style you want. Or at least write a few paragraphs to give the writer an idea of your style.

        10. Don't make assumptions.

        11. Under the heading "don't assume," specifically instruct the writer NOT to use a spinner (unless of course that's part of your project).

        12. Be clear about your expectations regarding SEO and keyword density. There's debate on this topic; again, the important thing is to make your expectations clear. Yes, you should be this specific (if it's important to you): "Try to use the keyword once within the first 20 words, then once in the second paragraph and once in the final paragraph. Don't use the keyword more than 4 times in a 500 word article unless you don't see a way to make the writing flow naturally without using it." Of course, you don't have to use my example; replace it with whatever kw density formula you choose.

        13. Confirm the timeline for project completion and agree about intervals at which communication and updates should take place. The writer might think it's fine to accept your work and disappear into a cave for 10 days, while you're expecting regular updates and draft in two days.

        14. Speaking of drafts, make sure you get them, at least until you've worked with the writer enough to know that you instructions will be followed. Find out upfront if the writer will be willing to make edits, and if so, how many.

        15. Confirm research expectations. Even if the writer says that he or she can write about a particular topic, find out if it's an area they're already familiar with. If it's not, ask how they plan to research it and how much research do they expect to do. Yes, this is often related to price - you won't get as much research for a cheaper article, but the point is to make sure you're both on the same page. And whether the writer is doing research or not, instruct him or her to ask you questions or simply not write about anything that's unclear. Tell them that leaving information out is preferable to misstating facts or writing muddled or confusing conclusions.

        16. Encourage the writer to communicate any questions, problems or issues.

        17. Be very clear about what constitutes an acceptable end product for you.

        The key to most of the above is communication. Ask questions and make yourself clear at the beginning, and you'll be more likely to end up with a product that pleases you. Keep in mind that the writer would much prefer to give you a product you're happy with. If you're not happy, you're not going to be a repeat customer.

        Well, I was gonna do a top 10, but hey, top 17 has kind of a ring to it, doesn't it?
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  • Profile picture of the author EyeInTriangle
    Doing trial-runs of articles from any article writer is a must. You should see what they can offer you first.

    For instance, you could ask to for a sample of 5-10 unique articles, and offer to pay for them and others, if you like them, and they pass copyscape. You don't always have to pay for everything upfront. Some writers are willing to work a little extra for your business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    All sounds pretty reasonable to me.

    You know you might want to copy and paste that into the All In One outsourcing thread because it would really apply just about anywhere.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...g-secrets.html
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    • Profile picture of the author grayambition
      Originally Posted by Kezz View Post

      All sounds pretty reasonable to me.

      You know you might want to copy and paste that into the All In One outsourcing thread because it would really apply just about anywhere.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...g-secrets.html
      Thanks for pointing me to the All In One thread, Kez! Tons of great tips there. Hope mine will add a bit more value to the thread.

      A few tips I found especially noteworthy:

      From Dan C. Rinnert - For your first, and perhaps first few, projects, you might want to have a friend or family member review your project description and make sure it is clear to them. A second set of eyes can be a good benefit to making sure you don't overlook anything important!

      From Lance K. - For bigger projects, make it known in your listing that you expect daily status updates. Not only will this keep you up to date on what's getting done, but it will also give your outsourcers a chance to get clarification/guidance on any issues that pop up.
      Just swap instant messanger details and make sure you touch base every day. As long as you make it known that this is an expectation before accepting a bid, all should go well.

      From John C. Taylor - Put a question in your request that requires a specific answer. If the answer isn't in the bid, you have probably got a canned response or a bot.

      From Tiffany Dow - Copyscape everything. They'll say they understand what plagiarism is, but either they don't, or they don't care.

      From Maria Gudelis - just like with employees...FIRE FAST! If someone isn't working out - you have to say next - it is your business, your bottom line you must be very aggressive here...this is one area where 'being nice' can kill your business, your own food on the table gets hit if you know what I mean!

      From Bev Clement - When you hire a person be it a writer, coder, VA, we can't read your minds. If you know what you want then let us in on the secret, if not then you might not get what you thought you wanted.

      And when you do find a good source, from Brent Turner - Treat your outsourcees with respect, praise their good work, correct them on their mistakes in a friendly way and just be friendly and nice to them in general.

      The above just barely scratch the surface. If you do any outsourcing or are thinking about it, I highly recommend reading http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post1784512.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Though it might be useful for outsourcing major programming projects - don't expect a writer to touch base with you daily. Asking for a weekly update is fine if the project is longer than one week.

        Give exact instructions - examples if you have them - and let the writer know the deadline is a deadline. If you want certain formatting - say so. If you want the finished product in doc or text, say so. BE specific. As Bev pointed out - we aren't mind readers.

        It is not realistic to order one article - unless you are prepared to pay a premium price. Good writers will not waste their time researching one article on a topic. Order at least five at a time.

        Ask WHO will be doing the work. These days that is necessary.

        It's great to show examples of the type writing you prefer - but don't ask a writer to mimic your personal style and expect it to be exact. The ONLY dissatisfied buyer I've personally had a elance gave very general instructions - when I asked for more specific he didn't give me any more to work with except "write 1000 words on something to do with XXX".

        He approved the draft I sent him as "very good" - paid immediately - and then complained it wasn't what he wanted. Looking at the customer's record there I could see he had done this multiple times - he didn't know what he wanted until he got finished products and decided it wasn't what he wanted. Unbelievably - he asked me to write more for him. No way!

        Copyscape everything -and in your original details tell the writer you will be doing this.

        John Taylor's advice is spot on when it comes to elance. Ask the person to add two words in their bid - and put those words in the last paragraph of your job description. Those who are bidding on everything don't take the time to read thoroughly - and you will weed out a lot of writers who are outsourcing the work.

        I also agree with Dan R's advice to show your instructions to someone (preferably someone who can write) to see if they are clear and precise.

        A few months ago I had an elance buyer send me a list of 30-40 questions for me to "answer if you want this job". Two of the questions I remember were "are you willing to contact me daily with a progress report" and "what hours do you work each day". This was a project for 20 articles! Had I answered - the answers would have been "no" and "none of your business".
        Instead my reply was "please withdraw my bid".

        As for edits - you should expect a writer to make quick changes if there is something wrong with information in an article or errors are present. However, writers are wary of clients who ask for "unlimited edits" because that is used by too many buyers to try to get freebie articles by requiring "rewrites".

        One thing that might help you in creating a job description is to look at the descriptions placed by very experienced elance buyers - you'll notice how detailed those job ads are.

        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author jedz
    Banned
    Hi grayambition,

    I feel for you. We had several clients who experienced the same situation of yours. That's the risk when you're just hiring a freelancers. I suggest to better trust an outsourcing company because they have a personnel managers who ensure the quality and productivity of their work. You can easily reach your staff because they are permanent workers who are doing their job in a business office.

    If you still need some writing job, do not hesitate to contact us just check my sig for more information.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ash R
    Hi grayambition - seems like you got something good out of this, i.e. detailed tips for those wanting to outsource

    My best content clients (I no longer accept new content clients) always give me a detailed brief.
    They check copyscape, and I expect them to not do any re-writing/editing.

    Good luck for the future
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  • Profile picture of the author Zentech
    How much were you paying? You get what you pay for. I don't mean to be confrontational, but that's just a fact.

    Nevermind, I scrolled up and read more. You imply they were $8-10 articles. That's actually a pretty good rate in the abysmally low-paying article writing market, so I can't fault you there.

    So, I dunno. Just don't use this writer again, I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author :Elective-
    Press for a refund. Pester him till he breaks. If you can't, I dunno. Don't use him again, or come to me lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author NeilC
      Some good tips and guidance here, probably the best is to keep your first order to just a small quantity so you can really get a feel for the type of articles.

      It's important to remember that we often have different expectations and that articles can be written in different styles for different purposes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrea Wilson
    Sometimes good feedbacks are not enough to justify ones ability to write article as each one of us has some specific preferences on what a good quality article is. As suggested above, its recommendable to try out a writer with a few assignments before trusting him/her with bigger projects.

    In case you mind some alternatives: Odesk can be a good source for freelancers. You can be in a contract and they will be bind in it while you are still working together.
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    • Profile picture of the author :Elective-
      I would not use Odesk, as since we are on warriorforum, it is always ideal to try another warrior first before turning to anyone else.
      Warriors FTW.
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