I can't stand Internet Marketing.

[Hecky]

Warriors,

I'm just making this post to express what I think, and to tell you my story.

I came here after spending a number of years at the DigitalPoint forum, where I spent hours each day doing design work and making minimal amounts of money. Straight away I decided to join the prestigous 'War Room' section, in the hope of being able to start off something in the Internet Marketing world that seemed so attractive.

After browsing through various threads, I was quickly won over by bold claims of huge earnings for little effort, and embarked upon my first project. I wont go into details, but it didn't work out. $100 of investment plus the $47 war room fee, and nada. No result. The program claimed that poor performers would pull in $2-4 a day, and yet I made nothing. The niche I used was suggested to me by a fellow warrior, and I wrote all the content I needed to exacting specifications. Yet nothing.

A few weeks later I came back with a fresh mind, looking to start again. I repeated what I had done before, but I did some better research this time, and yet I still got no results. Meanwhile there was nothing but success stories back at the thread, and I was left at the back - without a single cent. 51 clicks, 0 conversions.

Now it was time for me to really throw in the towel and say that this wasn't for me. I decided to look at another thread to try out, and again I've had no results. Nothing I do works, I thought I wasn't cut out for this and became jealous of all those who have succeeded. Nothing much has changed since then.

One thing that just strikes me is the greed and dishonesty that Internet Marketing can bring with it. It's all about squeezing as much money out of people as you can - and there's very little honestly or true kindness. For example, most of the threads in the 'War Room' require you to sign up to their email lists and I still recieve half a dozen emails a day from people who decided to 'kindly' give away some information for free. Truth is, they just found a different way to make money.

I recently bought a WSO here that had pages of good reviews and had more of the dazzling claims of fortunes on it. I read a few pages of the book and realized it's pretty much just a few War Room posts strung together into a book. I posted what I thought, and the thread creator and I took it to PM where he confronted me about what I said - apparently his sales had fallen 50% after what I said and he wanted me to post on the thread to get these back up again. Again, it's all just about sales and money. He did offer me a refund, though.

I also bought some software recently that I saw online. I won't go into specifics, but it didn't actually work. I've tried to contact the seller, but I somewhat doubt that he's the real seller anymore - it was probably some sort of affiliate system because he's posted it and run away, having pocketed $40.

My experience at the Warrior Forum has made me rethink my whole perspective on money. As far as I'm now concerned, money just turns people into desperation, and sometimes as far as greed and dishonesty. Either I'm a magnet for failure, or things just aren't as nice and shiny as they seem - and people only make money here by selling eBooks that tell you how to make money.

All around this forum and others like it are people preaching trickery. Whether it be tricking search engines or people, it's just not fair.

I suppose if I want to leave one message to whoever has read this far, it's to remember that there are people behind those sales and profit numbers. There are people that will be putting their hard-earned money into what you sell, and there are people who's lives you are making harder by trying to make a quick buck.

Every time you claim a system to make $x per month, you raise someone's hopes - and exploiting their human nature to respond to that hope when you know it's not possible is just inhumane.

N.B. This isn't a complaint at WarriorForum in particular, and I hope it isn't against the rules to express my opinion. I would be overjoyed to see someone come and make me change my mind on this issue.

[Cash37]

Self fulfilling prophecy.

[Hecky]

Perhaps reading what I wrote would help you in making a relevant and correct comment

[Robert Puddy]

Originally Posted by Hecky

Warriors,

Every time you claim a system to make per month, you raise someone's hopes - and exploiting their human nature to respond to that hope when you know it's not possible is just inhumane.

But we know it is possible...

I have students ranging all the way from....

Never logged into the training area after paying 2k

All the way to working full time online now

Robert

[Maddi]

I remember a conversation with you in New Castle (in the chinese restaurant] about people not claiming bonuses with your products. bonuses that could potentially save several man hours and actually making the whole product 10x more productive.

Strange but true.

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

But we know it is possible...

I have students ranging all the way from....

Never logged into the training area after paying 2k

All the way to working full time online now

Robert

[Ken_Caudill]

Here's a priceless piece of info for you:

You cannot get rich buying info on how to get rich. You get rich by selling things for a profit.

That'll be 47 bucks.

[Andy Hart]

I understand what your trying to say and totally agree, it really makes my blood boil the amount of scammers but its a battle I can never win.

The hardest part is knowing who to trust and who to listen to, the good news is there are good guys out there, its just really hard to find them as the scammers are so damn convincing.

As a side note I always get really pissed off at the WSO section, it has tons of crap rehashed products whose creators have clearly never followed the methods they are teaching but still get "rave" reviews which are blantantly written by "you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" type of people/contacts, and when you leave negative comments they somehow disappear off the thread???? hhhhmmmm I wonder how!!!

The good news is there are some amazing warriors with fantastic WSO's to offer but again you have to know who to trust and listen to and to do that you have to learn the hard way.

My 2 cents

Thanks
Andy

[Maddi]

Hey Hecky,

The thing is your frustration is absolutely justified as according to your post not only you buying products but actually working on them. More than 97% of people buy information and never put it to use.

But I would suggest that first of all you should start seeing yourself as progressing rather than a failure. Sure one of the methods you tried didn't work out. Sure another one didn't. I would try to identify the reason why it didn't work out and then decide whether to re-do it or to move on to another product with more experience gained from the previous method.

Also there may be a problem with following through. Are you actually following through each method till the end? If yes and you are seeing success stories with people raking in money doing the same thing then there is something gone wrong. Not to do with the method but something didn't go well with you doing it.

Internet Marketing niche is quite competitive and people do make a living just by selling products about how to make money online but most of them times these methods work and we don't. And end up burning out cos of buying product after product with no result. The thing is the product doesn't bring money, action does.

And since you are the action taker type, I don't suggest you become disappointed.

Think about how bad do you want it?
Then pick up a method which comes with on going support and sort of a forum for interaction.
Then follow it till the end.

Thinking about how bad do you want it will keep you going through hard times.
A method with on going support and a forum will keep the interaction and support when you need it.
Following it through till the end will tell whether there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow or not.

Hope it helps.

Maddi

[Dennis Gaskill]

Hecky, it doesn't sound like you've given it much of a chance or worked very hard at it, to be honest with you. Getting 51 click throughs is nothing. IM is hard work. It's about building: mailing lists, relationships, systems, content, sites, and more.

Making money online is just one niche, there are many profitable niches. I started a thread today you might want to read. As one member called it, it's a mini lesson in email marketing. The gist of my main post is to show how I made over $1,800 in just a few hours, and the orders are still coming in. For the record, what I'm selling isn't about making money online, and it isn't expensive.

As for money making products, I never go by the claims being made. Many of those who make the offers aren't regular forum contributors. Some come from Digital Point, like you. You need to read the regular threads and get to know some of the members. There's enough info in this part of the forum to learn to make money without buying anything, although having all the info in one place is easier to deal with.

Some of those products might not be ripoffs. The author could be earning what he says, but isn't a very good teacher. Of course, there are some rotten apples in every group too.

You have to understand that, while I can send an email and make several thousand dollars in one day, I've been building up to this point for years. It's work, it's perseverance, and it's a continual learning process.

I wouldn't necessarily consider what you've spent as wasted money. It all contributes to your pool of knowledge that will one day help you find success...if you don't give up. Hope that helps.

[sbucciarel]

I'll second that. You are just getting poorer buying info products. What exactly have you done? How many websites do you have? Are any getting traffic? You have good offers on them? Any good at writing sales copy?

Instead of buying stuff, pick a plan. You might have to come up with the blueprint yourself. Most successful people do. Many of us do different things. Some flip sites, some create other products, some are purely affiliates, some are into PPC. Study and find something you want to do and then learn to do it and you don't need an ebook to do that. Google it or search this forum.

[richdirtygirl]

Ok Hecky,

my 2 cents here (before they delete this thread for whining)...

Internet Marketing is marketing through the Internet. That said, lets break it down:

-to market means to sell something
-internet is the media used to sell that something

internet marketing is a business. 95% of start-up businesses fail because the owners don't have what it really takes to build a business. What makes you think this will be any different?

what is needed to success in IM is "can do no matter what" attitude, and the ability to learn from everything that happens to you.

the main reason for your failure is because you are not learning from your experiences, so you can't go ahead.

taken the smack part out of the way, you are right in a couple of things...

IM is considered a "desperate" niche. So you will see many falcons coming in. Someone told me once talking about this: They want the magic bullet and don't want to hear the truth, if I don't take their money someone else's will...

if you want to learn and build a solid business:

-stay away from big claims and shiny stuff;

-pay close attention to what you see and the way you feel when you read or see a vid, and you will be learning copy.

-choose good quality products to promote, or build your own (and make them good quality), and don't become a falcon yourself

-be ready to take everything that cross your way as a natural disaster: in a natural disaster you don't waste time claiming for the "shoulds" you cut your loses, learn and see how to move on.

Laura

[thunderbird]

Interesting. I'm a little baffled by this. War room has delivered incredible value. Maybe you're inundating yourself with too many projects? How about approaching this like a marathon rather than a sprint? Yi bu yi bu zou, as my grandfather used to say to me. The great thing about it is that it is your business. You do design and wasted your talent at digital "find cheap deals" forum? Why not connect to more lucrative markets? Guess what, it is just as hard to sell a toothbrush to a poor person as sell a racehorse to a rich person (I've done both).

[kenj]

Hecky

Thank you for your simple and plain honesty

I was right where you are at one time. I could have written this post almost word for word about 18 months ago. I think most visitors here would echo these feelings.
For me things started to change when I went to 2 IM seminars and met some of the successful people. This showed me 2 things.

1. That earning a good income was possible
2. That scammers do not attend seminars. If they did even if they did you would easily smell them out.

The people I met talked to me and cleared the air. The value of this was worth 100 $47 WSO's or whatever. They told me what to do with a product I had written.

Since then I have started to make money. Slowly and surely My monthly income is growing.

I also cannot stand internet marketing in its worst manifestations.
But there are real people who will help a beginner out. Just go and meet them face to face.

kenj

[dle45]

This post really irritates me. Their may be some newbies to this forum that read this and get a negative aspect of IM.

This isn't just a frustration with IM its your frustration with failure in general. Just because you tried a few things and didn't get a response or sale or make $$$ then that doesn't mean that you failed or IMers are greedy or we are taking advantage of people to line our "fat wallets".

It means you learned what doesn't work. I cant even count how many times I've tried things and they didn't work. But Guess what. Thats one more thing that I learned doesn't work so next time I won't waste time on it.

I just picked myself up by my bootstraps and moved on. Test something out, try something else. Maybe a new offer or product.

Maybe there are some unethical marketers out there but thats just not on the internet. Just turn on the TV and they are in every market you can imangine. When someone works or has a product to sell they expect to make money. Some products aren't as good as others. That is to be expected.

But to come on to the forum and basically get the tone in your post that most Imers are con-artist and greedy blood sucking leaches is far fetched.

On one product you said you had 51 clicks and no conversions....Seriously...51. Did you even give this time to run, did you tweak it, test it, try a different offer??

You can make this same rant about some one who tells a kid that you have what it takes to play in the majors. They may have what it takes...but they have to put in the effort. Not 51 days worth ( or clicks)

Those who make it test, try, tweak, or move on.

Dont give up. Try something new. Try it harder or improve upon it.

[DougBarger]

Hecky,

51 clicks isn't nearly enough to come to any conclusion.

That's the trouble with newer marketers in the beginning.

They start one thing and quit before sending enough traffic
to test.

Then they go to another and send the offer another 50 clicks or so.

Meanwhile, it's highly possible you could have sent the first offer 200-1000 clicks
and made a few sales depending on the strength of your offer,
the source of your traffic and your sales copy.

At least then, you'd have a more statistically valid test than the 51.

Even a "shiny new" car still requires putting the key in the ignition,
filling up the fuel tank and depressing the pedal before accelerating.

If you can't stand internet marketing, it may not be for you and that's okay.

PS. This isn't any attempt to discourage you from pursuing any endeavor you want,
but only to encourage you to plan and persist before you decide no sales after
only 50 clicks means 'fail and bail' time.

[Robert Oliver]

Please do not tell my wife this does not work.

Fine dining, cruises and my son's mustang all

from wso's I have bought. Man, I guess I need

to really wonder what this would be if it really

did work.

Robert Oliver

[Sparhawke]

I remember your post on the war room thread you mention, you were asking how you should find available .coms when they all seem to be taken so I showed you my technique...I did not tell you to run out and get any particular domain because it is guaranteed money, that was your choice.

However the domain I did show you was excellent, around 1000 people search for it every month using those exact words, so the issue must be that they cannot find your site.

And why should they when you are at position #56?

Do some aggressive backlinking and submit your site to digg, reddit, and others and I am sure you will start to rise and then once you are on page 1 you will start to see many more people visiting you.

Getting to page 1 of google is the toughest thing to do and the only thing that actually matters, 95% of all searchers stick to the top 10 results and if you are not in there you will not get any views...

My site is languishing in the #15 position out of 13.3M possibles, I cannot seem to get it up there to compete with Amazon, Kelkoo and Bizrate but I am not bitter, it is simply a learning curve.

Get your site to the top ten and you will see a turnaround

[MarketingSPY]

Hecky -

Many newbie marketers feel your pain. It can be quite frustrating to want something very badly and keep failing.

I hope you read this - because "Persistence and Consistency" will always prevail. Find a good mentor you trust. I agree - there are many sharks in the waters, but there are some good compasionate succesful mentors out there too.

I just posted a thread asking successful marketers to provide a easy to follow blueprint for online success. Let's see what happens. Make sure you read it. I hope people post their blueprints.

Keep on keeping on. Don't give up my friend.

Happy Trails!

PS: You're a great writer!!

[butters]

Problem one, you said - After browsing through various threads, I was quickly won over by bold claims of huge earnings for little effort, and embarked upon my first project.

You looked for the easy root and you got burnt, thats your own fault.

Problem two, you said - I repeated what I had done before, but I did some better research this time, and yet I still got no results.

you came back and gave it a half assed attempt and you failed, once again your own fault for not putting in the work.

Problem three, you said - Now it was time for me to really throw in the towel and say that this wasn't for me.

You admitted defeat after trying it a few times and failing, how long do you think a football player kicks a ball around when he is young, how long do you think a professional tennis player plays tennis for. They don’t turn up at training and hit or kick a few balls and think, oh, great that didn’t work, next! No, they don’t give in, they practice and practice, learn and learn until they get it right.

Problem four, you said - Either I'm a magnet for failure, or things just aren't as nice and shiny as they seem.

Your attitude sucks, this is what we call an excuse, oh it can't be me it must be the product I bought...

--

Look, IM isn’t easy, its frickin hard, there are no magic bullets, yes people do rip other people off but that happens in all places around the word, its nothing new. You got to use your head when it comes to IM, if it says it’s going to earn you 1000000 in a day, it’s not, most products don’t mention the hard work they put in to get that in a day. It isn’t as simple as slapping up a webpage, do a few blog posts, a few ezines and a few backlinks and your making money, no, thats like a day or two work.

Yes, people do raise peoples hope but this isn’t only done in IM, it is done with all products around the world. Diet coke for example, it’s still crap for you but because it has diet on the can, everyone thinks it’s healthy.

It is up to you ultimately, yeah you got burnt, everyone gets burnt, deal with it, learn from it and move on.

[scrofford]

Wow, you think that you should just be able to buy an ebook and easily make money? Even if that were true, it still takes something called WORK. Yeah that four letter word that most people online try to avoid and think there are all these short cuts.

Personally, it sounds to me like you are whining and just want to find some kind of magical shortcut to making a butt load of money. Get real! Anything that involves making money (legally) is going to take a lot of hard WORK.

You know what? Yes people are selling their products JUST TO MAKE MONEY! Why else would people be selling something? Now I'm not saying there aren't those out there who really have a desire to help others reach their goals, but they still want to make a living at it and are MONEY MOTIVATED.

You have failed because you have not learned how to market online. You want to cut corners and find the magic pill, bullett, or whatever it is you think will all of a sudden cause you to instantly have money in your bank account. THAT IS NOT REALISTIC. Unless you put in the hard work to build a list, market your website to thousands of people through different techniques and actually LEARN how to market, then you will continue to fail. It's that simple. There are just too many people online who have had successful businesses and have successful businesses to believe you just can't do this.

The truth of the matter is that you want an easy way. You don't want to put in the time and effort it takes. You want to take the short cuts yet have the benefits of a successful online marketer. It just doesn't work that way dude!

[Hecky]

For everyone who's ranting on about 51 clicks, yes it is a small number! I set up micro-niche websites exactly using methods that have such high appraisal, put more than the work that they suggest to put in, and have got just 51 clicks over 5 websites. None of which resulted in sales.

I'm not looking for '$$$', trust me, I'd be over the moon if $2 had found its way into my account from the dozens of hours and some $250 I've put into this. There's a limited amount of times that I can just pretend that I 'did something wrong' or 'learned a bad method'.


I just hate the whole structure of having email lists, 20,000 'buy' buttons, affiliate links in 'free' ebooks. It's all just squeezing as much money as you can out of people - which is just irritating and often misleading.

Those who have immediately categorized me into the 'get rich quick' wanna-be type are mistaken. I specialised in logo design at DigitalPoint, and making some 1,500+ logo and web designs resulted in less than $1,000 total. Each logo takes probably half an hour to make, so I've been working at $0.75 / hour for the last 4 years of my life. That takes commitment.

EDIT :

You know what, actually, I was completely right in my first post.

To everyone who has come here not just assuming the usual that I'm a lazy kid who can't be bothered do to work and has come here to make a quick fortune, thank-you. I have read what you have to say and taken it on board. I just wish kindliness was profitable.

Well done, scrofford in particular, for taking a generic 'lazy kid - do some work' post and putting it here with absolutely no basis for doing so.

Originally Posted by dle45

This post really irritates me. Their may be some newbies to this forum that read this and get a negative aspect of IM.
....

So sorry to hear that a mere newbie such as myself has irritated your highness.

[scrofford]

Originally Posted by Hecky

For everyone who's ranting on about 51 clicks, yes it is a small number! I set up micro-niche websites exactly using methods that have such high appraisal, put more than the work that they suggest to put in, and have got just 51 clicks over 5 websites. None of which resulted in sales.

I'm not looking for '$$$', trust me, I'd be over the moon if $2 had found its way into my account from the dozens of hours and some $250 I've put into this. There's a limited amount of times that I can just pretend that I 'did something wrong' or 'learned a bad method'.


I just hate the whole structure of having email lists, 20,000 'buy' buttons, affiliate links in 'free' ebooks. It's all just squeezing as much money as you can out of people - which is just irritating and often misleading.

Those who have immediately categorized me into the 'get rich quick' wanna-be type are mistaken. I specialised in logo design at DigitalPoint, and making some 1,500+ logo and web designs resulted in less than $1,000 total. Each logo takes probably half an hour to make, so I've been working at $0.75 / hour for the last 4 years of my life. That takes commitment.





So sorry to hear that a mere newbie such as myself has irritated your highness.

Ok then here is a great idea since you hate internet marketing so bad....JUST QUIT! Find something else that suits you. This may not be the "thing" for you. There are still plenty off offline opportunities out there.

The reason I am saying all of this is that you aren't asking for help. You just want to whine about it all. So quit dude. It's really easy. Just stop everything you are doing and find something that will make you money.

[DougBarger]

Originally Posted by Hecky

For everyone who's ranting on about 51 clicks, yes it is a small number! I set up micro-niche websites exactly using methods that have such high appraisal, put more than the work that they suggest to put in, and have got just 51 clicks over 5 websites. None of which resulted in sales.

I'm not looking for '$$$', trust me, I'd be over the moon if $2 had found its way into my account from the dozens of hours and some $250 I've put into this. There's a limited amount of times that I can just pretend that I 'did something wrong' or 'learned a bad method'.


I just hate the whole structure of having email lists, 20,000 'buy' buttons, affiliate links in 'free' ebooks. It's all just squeezing as much money as you can out of people - which is just irritating and often misleading.

Those who have immediately categorized me into the 'get rich quick' wanna-be type are mistaken. I specialised in logo design at DigitalPoint, and making some 1,500+ logo and web designs resulted in less than $1,000 total. Each logo takes probably half an hour to make, so I've been working at $0.75 / hour for the last 4 years of my life. That takes commitment.





So sorry to hear that a mere newbie such as myself has irritated your highness.

Hecky,

I don't think anyone at all ranted about your 51 clicks.

If you may be referring to the post where I mentioned 51 clicks
isn't enough to justify any statistically valid test,

then that's only because it's a fact I shared with you to help you.

Now that the rest of it has come out:

"51 clicks spread over 5 sites and no sales"...

that means you've given yourself even less of a chance so far
to come to any conclusion.

You'll need to send at least 100-200 clicks to each of those sites
before you start to get a clearer picture.

In fact, if you do that, you'll see one of them that gets
more response than the others.

Then you can focus more of your efforts/clicks toward
promoting that offer and leave the others on the backburner.

That way, you're scaling up what has worked for you
and dropping what hasn't so you can get the most for your efforts.

There's not any guarantee that any of those 5 will produce even one sale for you, but at least by sending enough traffic to get a fair reading,
you'll have gained the knowledge you need to proceed.

There could be any number of factors which are variables which can be tested, tracked and then improved upon to improve your results.

It can be your niche, your traffic source, your offer, your price or your copy.

Each of those variables can be tested to see what performs and then tweaked to optimize your response.

No one ranted, only helped.

That's about all anyone can do, is help you by sharing their knowledge from their experience of what works and what doesn't.

It's now up to you to either act on it, disregard it, refute it,
be encouraged and move forward...

or throw in the towel and shift responsibility for your results
projected outwardly to someone other than who is truly responsible for them--> Hecky.

I hope you'll be encouraged, but not to the point of expecting fully baked cakes after only 2 minutes in the oven.

[dle45]

As far as the reason your post irritates me is because some other newbie comes along who has been busting his butt, asking questions and trying to learn, may take this post and think that it isn't worth it or everyone is out to scam them for money and then they too give up.

That is what you did. You are giving up. The road isn't easy. It's called work for a reason.

Maybe if you would have come on hear with the humble attitude of hey guys i need help instead of clumping everyone into a group of greedy marketers then we would have been more than happy to help.

But you have given up on yourself already and bashed the forum. Look at all the success here. Its not an accident.

I have no problem helping someone that needs it, but not some one that has given up and bashes others and stereotypes the whole group.

As far as the your highness comment you made .....you can just call me Sir...hahaha j/k

[dle45]

I like the fully baked cakes only after 2 minutes in the oven comment....

Im stealing it...but i'll credit it back..

[Sparhawke]

You seem to have missed my post Hecky so I will re-illiterate, get some back linking done and get your niche site higher in the rankings, until you do you will not get hardly any views

[AndyBlackSEO]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Here's a priceless piece of info for you:

You cannot get rich buying info on how to get rich. You get rich by selling things for a profit.

That'll be 47 bucks.

Lol. So how much does that work out per 'letter'. That's a bargain if I haven't seen one before. Can you stick a front cover on it and sell it to me as an ebook? :-)

[IM Headlines]

E-books, books, videos etc... are there to teach you, NOT to make you rich.

REMEMBER that.

[TelegramSam]

Hecky,

What the heck?

You obviously have a lot of upset.

I understand that.

But not everyone here rips people off or even sells things in the Internet Marketing niche.

I think it may be wise to quit, but go knowing that not everyone was out to get you.

Perhaps you also need to evaluate your own efforts and thinking. Were you naive in your thinking? Were you looking for a quick solution?

Did you put the work in?

Sam

[redicelander]

Hecky, great points for starting out. However, Cash37 DID make a relevant comment. His point is your attitude sucks. You will never make good money in internet marketing with this kind of attitude, I'm sorry to say. You have to look behind the glitz and promises of all those WSOs and all that sales copy directed at guys like you, and look for the meat, and act on it. You have the act on it part, you are just acting on the wrong stuff. You have to PERSEVERE. Truth is, some people do get up and rolling in month and start making big money fast. Others take much longer. You are of the latter, obviously, and it probably takes longer for most of us. It has for me. But you still have to persevere, no matter what. It's not as easy as all the sales copy makes it seem, because you actually have to work hard at the beginning. What, work hard? But I did this because they all say it's easy! It's not. But once you find something that works, it will be much easier and you can start figuring out how to make your money almost on autopilot, and that IS possible.

So, good points but you need to start thinking positively or you will not succeed. It takes a strong mind, yes, but start filling your mind with good thoughts, balance that with the reality of hard work to get it done and that you must work really hard to get it, and you can start anew. You must be become obsessed with succeeding in this business.

The War Room has been cleaned up a bit. If you didn't notice lately, there are now no forced opt-in threads, there. So if somebody gives something, they cannot force you to join their email list anymore. They can ask you to, but cannot force you to now, they just have to give you what they said they'd give you.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Okay, it's time for a reality check.

Hecky, let me tell you a true story, though I am going to shorten it for
time and because this thread probably won't last long.

In 2000, I lost my job. Last day of work actually was Dec 31, 1999.

When I first turned to Internet marketing in 2003, I got nowhere. I had
no idea what I was doing...none.

So I did some research and got a little bit of education that lead me to
freelancing.

I did that for a while, making a few hundred to a thousand bucks a month
and then moved on to some affiliate marketing, making another few hundred
to a thousand bucks a month.

For a long time, I was only making about $1,500 to $2,000 a month working
online. It wasn't a lot, but it was something.

But somebody made me realize that I was actually doing things that many
people couldn't figure out how to do on their own...and making money
doing it.

Not selling "how to make money" books...but actually making money outside
of that incestuous "hated by many" niche.

That somebody made me realize that I was capable of teaching others
to do JUST what I did.

So I did.

That lead to a $4,000 to $5,000 a month income.

Then I learned about list building. Yeah, for a long time, I never built a list.

Once I did, I slowly built up a responsive list of a few thousand and now
make close to 5 figures a month or more. I am slightly over 6 figures a year.

I do it from a combination of many things, and yes...some of it still from
selling stuff outside of "how to make money".

The problem you have, among many, is you have a distorted view of
earning a living online.

Amazon.com is into Internet marketing.

Would you say that they sell junk to unsuspecting poor slobs who don't
know any better?

I buy DVDs from Amazon almost every month.

And that's just ONE market.

There are many things to sell online that have nothing to do with selling
the dream to marketers.

The problem is, your view of this whole industry is so warped, you can't
see that.

I don't know what tactics you've learned to do whatever it is you've tried
to do. I don't care either.

I could write out a simple plan, right here, that I can prove beyond any
doubt makes me and countless numbers of people money each month,
having nothing to do with selling make money products, and you still
probably won't have any success.

Why?

Because your attitude stinks.

Sorry...but I call 'em like I see 'em.

Things for you aren't going to change unless you change.

How?

I don't know. I'm not you. I don't know what you have to do to get your
head out of that bad place you're in right now.

But I can tell you this.

You have 2 choices.

1. Change your attitude, make a real business plan instead of just throwing
crap at the wall and seeing what sticks.

2. Keep your current mindset and fail or for that matter, just give up.

Because if you hate IM so much, there is no point in you doing this.

There are easier ways to make a living.

[txconx]

Hecky, if I tallied up the amount of money I've spent on failed business ideas, it would be a lot more than you spent on IM, trust me. It doesn't mean they were BAD business ideas or that my money wasn't well spent. Most likely, my execution wasn't what it should be. I worked hard at them, put money into them - and cut my losses when it didn't work out.

Maybe that's what you need to do with IM.

My theory on most "internet marketing" gurus is pretty similar to my thoughts on anyone who will share their secrets for getting rich - they're getting rich by selling seminars and products on how to get rich. Maybe they did make money doing whatever they're telling you to do, but they're REALLY raking it in by turning around and doing seminars and selling products to people. I don't buy them. There's a lot of free advice here in the forums. Heck, many of the gurus even have a lot of free stuff on their sites. Either you have time or you have money - I have time, so I take the time to pick through the information, put what I've learned into practice, then tweak and test and tweak some more. I'm not making a lot of money really fast, but I'm learning a lot, having fun and every day seeing more results from all the work I put into it.

One of my favorite stories is about an executive at IBM who pitched a wild-assed idea that cost the company $3 million to launch - and it fizzled. He was called into the CEOs office and he figured he was going to be fired. He offered up his resignation and the CEO said (something to the effect of - I don't have time to look up the story particulars just now) - I don't want you to resign! We just paid $3 million for your education!

Look on it as a learning experience - and move on, man. Whining about not being successful is just a loser attitude. Either figure out what you needed to learn from it and apply it to IM or some other business - but move on.

[entrepreneurjay]

Wow sounds like someones mad .... The only way you are gonna make it is by actually working and building your business. Do not buy anything online for a while, and concentrate on the techniques needed to actually build your online business. Starting here is a great start just keep educating yourself. Put a blog, or a website together send traffic to it for starters. Once that gets established and you start seeing a reasonable amount of traffic then start an Email list, then write an E-book etc....

You are not gonna build a business by strictly reading E-Books yeah some can give you good ideas but you cn get that information for free most of the time. Concentrate on things that make you money by starting to build your online business. Hell I give away stuff for free ..... Start building, and stop buying at least for now!

Hope that helps! Good luck, and stick with it dont give up!

[JackPowers]

Originally Posted by Hecky

Those who have immediately categorized me into the 'get rich quick' wanna-be type are mistaken. I specialised in logo design at DigitalPoint, and making some 1,500+ logo and web designs resulted in less than $1,000 total. Each logo takes probably half an hour to make, so I've been working at $0.75 / hour for the last 4 years of my life. That takes commitment.

You are not charging enough for your work. Digital Points is for starting out and getting your feet wet. Or offering autopilot services at discount rates. May I recommend Elance (Elance | Outsource to freelancers, professionals, experts, and consultants - Get work done on Elance.) instead. Sounds like you are not confident enough in your skills.

Originally Posted by richdirtygirl

Ok Hecky,

my 2 cents here (before they delete this thread for whining)...

Internet Marketing is marketing through the Internet. That said, lets break it down:

-to market means to sell something
-internet is the media used to sell that something

internet marketing is a business. 95% of start-up businesses fail because the owners don't have what it really takes to build a business. What makes you think this will be any different?

what is needed to success in IM is "can do no matter what" attitude, and the ability to learn from everything that happens to you.

the main reason for your failure is because you are not learning from your experiences, so you can't go ahead.

taken the smack part out of the way, you are right in a couple of things...

IM is considered a "desperate" niche. So you will see many falcons coming in. Someone told me once talking about this: They want the magic bullet and don't want to hear the truth, if I don't take their money someone else's will...

if you want to learn and build a solid business:

-stay away from big claims and shiny stuff;

-pay close attention to what you see and the way you feel when you read or see a vid, and you will be learning copy.

-choose good quality products to promote, or build your own (and make them good quality), and don't become a falcon yourself

-be ready to take everything that cross your way as a natural disaster: in a natural disaster you don't waste time claiming for the "shoulds" you cut your loses, learn and see how to move on.

Laura

You said it best of the bunch Laura (why dirty btw?).

Or as my very successful friend in stock broking (an economist) told me: "Where there are few/small entry barriers, there is a lot of competition".

Now if someone wanted to open a convenience store in real life, they would probably realize that there are tons of other convenience stores and that small time shops don't make a lot of money for long hours of work.

Then maybe the person in question would say: "I wonder how I could offer something better/cheaper/relevant?". Maybe the guy/girl had access to some rare tea from China trough friends or had such a winning personality that customers would drop by for just a chat. Or maybe this guy knew of a small town where a factory just opened. Now that would be a reasonable line of thought.

Not many people think like that in IM though and that's mainly because very few people will tell you that this is either a business or a hobby. I really don't think there is any in between.

If you have no business experience whatsoever, I doubt you will succeed in IM. You need to be able to organize, to work with trusted partners (that includes affiliate networks), identify a market, decide how to compete (because you have to) and lots more.

I decided to take a break from IM cause I was doing mainly affiliate marketing and let be honest and say I am more than a little tired of Clickbanks antics, but it's hard to let go of this thing once you've tasted freedom.

The thing is: You need QUALITY. Something that is different. Something that is BETTER. I think the days of easy internet money with mediocre content is gone. Too much competition.

And I also feel like the IM vultures are a pain in the ass. There's lots of good people on Warrior Forum though. Those are the ones like Laura who tell it like it is.

[EndGame]

Hi Hecky.

I could write a book about what you are talking about. I have worked with/and know some of the biggest Internet Marketing "gurus" I know a fraudster or two and I know people who just started learning all this stuff two days ago. I have seen it from all sides and have made a few conclusions. I will spare this thread and the people here my conclusions, but I wanted to share something with you that might be of interest to you and a lot of other warriors.

Viral Marketing : ViperChill

It's a blog. The guy who wrote it is 20 (I think) but has an exceptional CV/background and is living proof this is possible. His approach to helping people escape the 9-5 is different to that of any other online marketing "teacher" I have ever seen.

I have only been reading his stuff for 2 weeks, but it has been invaluable, interesting and thought provoking. His writing style is clear, concise and he really guides you through things. There are courses selling for $197 a pop that don't even come close in delivering the same amount of value this lad delivers in one blog post.

I encourage anyone who has an hour or two spare in their week to make time for this guy's blog.

[Sparhawke]

Originally Posted by EndGame

I encourage anyone who has an hour or two spare in their week to make time for this guy's blog.

Bookmarked

[EndGame]

You won't regret it Sparhawke. I promise you that.

Again, anyone reading this, take some time to read what the guy says, and then actually apply it. He's a very sharp guy, and a great writer.

[ContentArticleWriter]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Okay, it's time for a reality check.

Hecky, let me tell you a true story, though I am going to shorten it for
time and because this thread probably won't last long.

In 2000, I lost my job. Last day of work actually was Dec 31, 1999.

When I first turned to Internet marketing in 2003, I got nowhere. I had
no idea what I was doing...none.

So I did some research and got a little bit of education that lead me to
freelancing.

I did that for a while, making a few hundred to a thousand bucks a month
and then moved on to some affiliate marketing, making another few hundred
to a thousand bucks a month.

For a long time, I was only making about $1,500 to $2,000 a month working
online. It wasn't a lot, but it was something.

But somebody made me realize that I was actually doing things that many
people couldn't figure out how to do on their own...and making money
doing it.

Not selling "how to make money" books...but actually making money outside
of that incestuous "hated by many" niche.

That somebody made me realize that I was capable of teaching others
to do JUST what I did.

So I did.

That lead to a $4,000 to $5,000 a month income.

Then I learned about list building. Yeah, for a long time, I never built a list.

Once I did, I slowly built up a responsive list of a few thousand and now
make close to 5 figures a month or more. I am slightly over 6 figures a year.

I do it from a combination of many things, and yes...some of it still from
selling stuff outside of "how to make money".

The problem you have, among many, is you have a distorted view of
earning a living online.

Amazon.com is into Internet marketing.

Would you say that they sell junk to unsuspecting poor slobs who don't
know any better?

I buy DVDs from Amazon almost every month.

And that's just ONE market.

There are many things to sell online that have nothing to do with selling
the dream to marketers.

The problem is, your view of this whole industry is so warped, you can't
see that.

I don't know what tactics you've learned to do whatever it is you've tried
to do. I don't care either.

I could write out a simple plan, right here, that I can prove beyond any
doubt makes me and countless numbers of people money each month,
having nothing to do with selling make money products, and you still
probably won't have any success.

Why?

Because your attitude stinks.

Sorry...but I call 'em like I see 'em.

Things for you aren't going to change unless you change.

How?

I don't know. I'm not you. I don't know what you have to do to get your
head out of that bad place you're in right now.

But I can tell you this.

You have 2 choices.

1. Change your attitude, make a real business plan instead of just throwing
crap at the wall and seeing what sticks.

2. Keep your current mindset and fail or for that matter, just give up.

Because if you hate IM so much, there is no point in you doing this.

There are easier ways to make a living.

WOW, STRONG words, but so true. I have to say that I am new to this, "Making money online" thing, and I have two things I owe that to, the bad economy and being laid off, and my wonderful husband who convinced me to put my writing skills to work and make money (actually that was more like three ). At first I was so lost, so confused (sure my husband is my main mentor since he is an IMer), but spending long hours in front of a computer screen was mind boggling to me. Especially after having been a current events reporter, where I was constantly on the go, and only sat in front of my computer to write my story. Anyway, I too encountered the deception and frustration of not making money immediately. I almost quit, but my husband snapped me out of it. He told me I had to believe in myself, believe in my skills and believe in my product. I had to trust that soon enough I would begin to see an increase in clientele and return customers. Needless to say, he was right. I also discovered forum participation because of his insistence, and I do not regret it. I have learned things here that my husband did not get around to teach me, and it has been GRATEFUL. LESSON to be learned, it is all in the ATTITUDE!!!!

[InternetMarketingIQ]

Money follows value.

A lot of people do nothing but copy and rehash what they think they know.

A lot of people are trying to sell shovels to the gold rush.

There are millions and millions of products and services that can be sold online.

The "problem" if there is one is that people don't look at how to create value for the end user.... the guy with the credit card! They get caught up in Traffic, and Link Building, and "Promoting".

Little of which have anything to do with convincing a buyer to make a purchase.

You don't have to be unethical to make money.

And if you are focusing on the teeny tiny IM niches you are probably not going to make it.

Focus on what you know... what are your hobbies, what do you know a lot about, what niches can you set yourself apart in?

I make a lot of money from a couple of sites I run that are specifically related to what I like to do in real life. And my writing in those niches reflects it. And people gravitate to those sites because they can "feel" my passion for them.

Crazy thing is... I get people writing me about one particular site and think I'm a Dealer for the products. When I am very clearly stating through out the site I am not!

So what you really need to do is look at how YOU can create VALUE within a Niche you are passionate about.

The only IM products I purchase are softare tools to manage my business and save me time.

I don't care about this months tip or trick.

Just look at ClickBank... whatever it there today will be gone in a couple of months. No staying power.

Work on "Evergreen" sites. Work "Evergreen" niches.

What's Evergreen? It's things that people will always need and want.

Good luck.

And yes. Everyone isn't cut out for this. Find your passion.

Internet Commerce is an extremely small part of the economy.

[4morereferrals]

Ohhh wait - you mean you cant just throw up a site on the web and it starts raking in cash!!!?

I mean I see all these other sites making money - surely there is no "real work" involved?

Sorry you are having such a rough go. I really wish it wasnt so. I flirted with IM a few years ago - and thought similar to you that this all seemed just one incestious pool of sharks trying to make $$$ solely off poor unsuspecting warrior forum newbs.

Then I learned a GREAT Deal for FREE and for peanuts - compared to what my offline education in marketing and hard knocks cost me ... buying wso's - paying close attention - reading forum threads - asking questions taking copius notes ...

I managed to learn a few skills On The Job promoting a few Non IM related sites and products, and in the process discovered a few tricks and tactics that would also benefit other Online Marketers - and created a few branded products around a gap that was not being filled.

Now I cant wait to get my online income up to par with my "career" income and leave the offline grind in ancient history. I have a ways to go - but progress can be made in rapid succession.

Point is - I too was a bit of a doubter - till I truly applied Elbow Grease and Brain Power.

Create a problem solving product for Frustrated Newbs ... Top 10 Things every newb should do absolutely First before spending $1 on Info Products. Get together with 10 - 20 top warriors and ask them to each answer a question you think newbs should KNOW .. offer to attribute them in the book and give an afilaite link back to their product[s] in your book. Generating a potential affilaite sale for you and sales for them! There's an art to that too btw - read up on it.

Thats just an idear that popped up on the fly as I was posting. Your welcome

OK - I just tried to become Hemingway - over it.

Originally Posted by Sparhawke

You seem to have missed my post Hecky so I will re-illiterate, get some back linking done and get your niche site higher in the rankings, until you do you will not get hardly any views

[richdirtygirl]

Originally Posted by JackPowers

You said it best of the bunch Laura (why dirty btw?).

Why "dirty"? that's an interesting story. One day, maybe, I will tell you.

Originally Posted by JackPowers

And I also feel like the IM vultures are a pain in the ass. There's lots of good people on Warrior Forum though. Those are the ones like Laura who tell it like it is.

thanks baby, smooch!

Laura

[pks1967]

Hecky,

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a bad time. It's sure not easy. It took me several years of trying different products and blowing money on advertising to test different things.

I wanted to give up many times, but I stuck with it, because I wanted to be my own boss and not have to work for someone else.

Five and a half years ago, I started making more online than at my computer networking job. No cake in the break room for me. I hated the job and I was gone.

In that time, I've made a lot of money and I've lost a lot of money. Some years were better than others. For me, it was all about the freedom. I hated going in to work each morning, listening to people talk about nothing in endless and pointless meetings.

And no, I'm not selling anything. I don't have some magic system to make anyone rich. In fact, since the recession hit, nothing has been working for me either.

Now I'm just about broke and the wife is yelling at me to get a job. Can you even imagine how hard it would be to go back to work after being my own boss for over five years? If I have to, of course I'll go and find another job to pay the bills. But I'll never quit online marketing. For the last year or so, I've been working over 50 hours per week, every week. I'm at my computer seven days a week, working on building new websites and building traffic.

My savings is just about gone now. Thank God I socked most of it away when I was having good years. Am I going to quit. Not a chance!

There just is nothing like being your own boss and not having to answer to anyone for anything. When the money was coming in, I didn't have to work so many hours. My time was mine to do what I wanted with.

You just have to ask yourself "how bad do you want it". Enough to keep going? So no, it's not going to be easy. You'll have to put in a lot of hours and a lot of hard work. But once you taste success and see real money coming in after all those years of trying, it's a feeling like no other.


Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


Brad

[bgmacaw]

YouTube - Denis Waitley - Failure is the...

[ozduc]

Originally Posted by Hecky

- and people only make money here by selling eBooks that tell you how to make money.

That is so weird. Imagine that, people on an Internet Marketing Forum making money by selling products that tell you how to make money in Internet Marketing.
And I thought this forum was about dog training

[Jeremy Morgan]

I understand what you're saying. People behind the numbers, etc.

Basically I think you're making a pretty broad statement about marketers that may or may not be true. Yes, there are scammers, and yes there are people who want "squeeze every dime" out of their customers.

But there are also people who truly believe in what they are doing and
truly want to help people. Yes, those people don't make as much money as others, but they enjoy what they do.

I won't pass judgment or say too much, but I think you need to spend more time in the industry before giving up, and try to see more of the positive things as well as the negative.

[armadin]

Hecky, perhaps IM is not your passion, obviously if everyone in the world wanted to do IM, there would be 6 billion marketers writing blogs about their battle with starvation

On the other hand, if you are just disappointed with some marketers or practices, then shrug them off, the number of people who speak with honesty is good and I see most experienced marketers here as genuine people promoting legit products.

IM is quite hard to get started with, most commonly the problem with finding niches that convert or getting your site(s) out there to be seen.

Money is best made when you have a great piece of content, not necessarily unique either, just something that has an interesting spin and that makes people think. Obviously, you can have a passion for igloos but good luck trying to sell them to ordinary people, so it is a combination of finding something that you personally like to promote and something that indeed people will want to buy. Being fresh to IM, you should just give failure its spot, not saying that its impossible to make money from the start but remember that a lot of well known and rich people have started their enterprise in utter misery. In a world where materialism dominates, you got to remind yourself that the subtle fabric of money originates from the mind of people and although not an illusion anymore, its power is still sustained within the minds of all of us. You got to try and manipulate this illusion a bit, if you compare cash and content you will eventually see that money is more common then good ideas or good products.

Cheers mate

[sloanjim]

Sadly I agree. I think people do forget it's hard working people who want to make a litle extra money on the side who often get ripped off so a guru can say "look I made $250,000 las month in your face loser..." I am sick of this "Well it dosn't matter he made money from it" attitude here! Forget being honest or ethical the almighty $$ rules everything.

Not to paint everyone with the same brush but there are a lot of sharks in this industry (as in others where there is money) and there are a lot of them here on this forum. Afew very dangerous ones. They probably see nothing wring in what they are doing. Like O.J Simpson you can convince your-self you are doing the "right thing"

Step back and look at what they are doing....you do not have to pay. Watch what they sell and how they sell it. Now if you can sell your soul to make some money copy them.

I wouldn't give up if I was you.....you can make legit money without sellnig false hope andreams to the desperate. Take abreak and stop buying WSO's 90% are junk .It's gettign like DP forums in here now. The Black Hatters are hitting this forum hard now.

[sloanjim]

No it's not easy and noone should expect it to be but what she is there are so many scams it's geting impossible to pick the good/legitimate ones out.

The big problem on the Net is regulation. People are not scared of the consequens of their copy, prmoises etc. Look at the WSO section. The FTC would have a FIT. I'd say about 20% are ok..the rest.

As far as the reason your post irritates me is because some other newbie comes along who has been busting his butt, asking questions and trying to learn, may take this post and think that it isn't worth it or everyone is out to scam them for money and then they too give up.

That is what you did. You are giving up. The road isn't easy. It's called work for a reason.

[sloanjim]

Steven Wagenheim you are one of the good guys here. I'd trust my house keys with you. 100% legit and there to help. BUT you are a rarity. I think what she is saying is most most outragous claims just to get sales. Knowing most cannot duplicate what they hvae done. I know what you are saying....there is no wrong and right here.
OPM Sign up with Steve....he'll show you how to make legit money online. Scam free zone 100%.

[ShaneRQR]

Hecky, it's clear that you're pretty angry about this whole situation and I really get where that's coming from.

And I'm sure many people reading this thread have had very similar experience.

You're right, there are many dishonest marketers in the IM niche. Some are downright scammers, others simply don't care that much for their customers and produce sub-par products that they can set up as "newbie traps" (big promises, big hype, etc.).

BUT that's only some of them. It certainly doesn't apply to Internet marketing in general.

Try to take a step back from your anger and just look at this thread. Lots of people here are genuinely trying to help you out. Maybe they have a wrong impression of who you are and how much work you've done and maybe the way they express their opinions rubs you the wrong way, but for the most part, they are making an effort to try to help you.