The Email Marketing Guru's Are Wrong? Statistics inside...

14 years ago

Hi Andrew,

I cannot believe that you get such low openings. When I see a letter coming from you, I always open it right away, and read it with high interest, because I know I have something great to expect.

Now, this is not said to be flattering, but because I mean it. 'Nuf said...

This finding is truly interesting. I think it might be related to Internet Marketing. Now, I've stopped sending out HTML mails for the most part, so I cannot track opened mails, only clicks, but when I did, for my computer tips I was close to 100% opens. My last mail even had 211,1% opens

But when I wrote about IM in English, almost nobody cared to read, what I wrote. <sob>

But your findings is worth considering. Do we sent out offers faster? Or go for other niches than IM?

Thanks

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

If the open rate drops off that dramatically, the readers are losing interest. This could be for a number of reasons.

- They're not receiving the kind of information they expected.
- The information is common knowledge to them.
- The subject lines of the emails aren't intriguing enough to cause them to open the emails.
- Too many emails are getting lost to spam filters.
- The topic isn't as interesting as they thought it would be.

I could list several more reasons, but the point I want to make is that you don't have to send content emails seven times then a marketing email. Send content and marketing together, starting from the first email. Always test everything for yourself to find out what works for you.

Of course, building a list through freebies means you'll get a lot of tire kickers that just don't stick around.

[ 2 ] Thanks

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Derek Allen

14 years ago

My open rates are usually between 95-65% all the way to the 12 follow up email. For one of my internet marketing niches. I have built this list by giving away free reports.

I don't write great copy or anything. I just keep it short, sweet and to the point.

Thanks
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AndrewHansen

14 years ago

That's fascinating Deezy, and a great result - well done!

I'd love to hear more about how you achieve that. Any tips? If you write an ebook, I'll buy it

Andrew

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AndrewHansen

14 years ago

And Dennis,

Thanks for your thoughts. The reason I'd found the drop off particularly strange was that I was convinced the emails were being received super well... all of the feedback being like Britt's comments above (Thanks Britt, and good to see ya here!) - people loving the content.

Very interested to hear other people's experiences on this.

Andrew

Thanks
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Jesus Perez 14 years ago

I can attest to the fact it's not the "relationship" with your audience, Andrew. I'm on your list and I also open your emails rather quickly due to the solid reputation you've built. And since you're using Aweber, I doubt it's the deliverability.

I wonder if it's the "niche" marketing demographic in general. Maybe it's a bit on the unstable side?
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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AndrewHansen

And Dennis,

Thanks for your thoughts. The reason I'd found the drop off particularly strange was that I was convinced the emails were being received super well... all of the feedback being like Britt's comments above (Thanks Britt, and good to see ya here!) - people loving the content.

Very interested to hear other people's experiences on this.

Andrew

Andrew, I took Britt's comments into consideration. She also subscribes to my list and I know her to be well-informed and intelligent. That's why I suggested some reasons that people may stop opening your emails that weren't related to the actual quality of the content.

I don't market like most marketers. I'm more of a publisher that markets rather than a marketer that markets - at least for my primary income sources. I do it much as I stated:

Content + marketing material = a newsletter!

If you're marketing in a similar way to the seven-to-one formula you mentioned in your OP, you're basically doing the same thing only you're segregating your content from your marketing material. No reason to do that, if you ask me. I find the newsletter format much more effective. Only rarely do I send an email that isn't my newsletter.

That's why I suggested you send a mix of content and marketing. They can enjoy the content as they walk right into your marketing offer, and since your open rate is much greater early on, more people will see the marketing offer you're making.

Thanks
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Britt Malka

14 years ago

Hi Dennis (Boogie Jack

)

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Andrew, I took Britt's comments into consideration. She also subscribes to my list and I know her to be well-informed and intelligent. That's why I suggested some reasons that people may stop opening your emails that weren't related to the actual quality of the content.

Why, thanks

Just for the record, your emails are also among those, few, that I read right away

In the long run, don't you think that content will win over just plain sales pitches?

I know that I unsubscribe from more and more of those who only send me sales pitch after pitch.

Thanks
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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Britt Malka

Hi Dennis (Boogie Jack

)

Why, thanks

Just for the record, your emails are also among those, few, that I read right away

In the long run, don't you think that content will win over just plain sales pitches?

I know that I unsubscribe from more and more of those who only send me sales pitch after pitch.

I couldn't agree more, Britt. I believe people are tiring of the pitchfests and those who offer real content will thrive, while the pitch men and women will struggle to grow. It's a lot easier to get people to sign up than to keep them around, I think.

Thanks
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AndrewHansen 14 years ago

Dennis,

You're right. That mix between content and marketing is the biggest challenge.

And Terry,

Thanks for the reminder about the time factor. I'm going to test shortening the space between AR messages and watch how that affects open rates through the sequence.

Andrew
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Richard Tunnah

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Britt Malka

Hi Dennis (Boogie Jack

)

Why, thanks

Just for the record, your emails are also among those, few, that I read right away

In the long run, don't you think that content will win over just plain sales pitches?

I know that I unsubscribe from more and more of those who only send me sales pitch after pitch.

Hi Britt,
I agree with you. I too subscribe..see which way my subscription is going and will usually unsubscribe from those that pitch only. I think the problem particularly in IM is that you get most copying and pasting the same copy for the latest 'big' launch. It's a real turn off seeing the same pitch from 10 different people on the same day in my inbox.

Rich

Thanks

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Terry Hatfield

14 years ago

It may be more a time factor than just the number of emails.

I come from the offline world where when you mail to a list you have what is called hotline names. Basically those who are buyers in the last 30 days are the best names to rent.

The older the names get the less they are responsive.

I'm not one of those marketers that focus on relationships. So online I take the attitude to email them fast and often because the older they get the colder they get.

Just look at your own interest, are you into the same thing now that you was burning hot six months ago? I know my interest change a lot in a couple of months time. I look back at stuff I spent a ton a year ago that you couldn't get me to spend $10 on today.

Thanks

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Joseph91

14 years ago

I agree I have found that with promoting Affiliate Products that after they Opt-In and receive their "Free Gift" I send them Directly to my Offer then if they do not buy then when they Read my Free Report it Pre - Sells them with my Affiliate links. Then if they still don't Buy then I send out Pitches until they Buy or Unsubscribe =) Cuz you see I'm here to make money not give All the Content away for Free.

Thanks

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neno

14 years ago

Lots of great thoughts here on Email Marketing.

Of course, building a list through freebies means you'll get a lot of tire kickers that just don't stick around.

Hey Dennis. Can you please elaborate this thought? Is building a list by giving free stuffs not a good idea?

Thanks

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Shaun Lee

14 years ago

Now that's solid test results.

Here's a tip for email marketers: I open emails based on the Sender column, not the Subject column.

I don't know about other people, but that's me.

It appears that building a brand is more important than the content you give.

-Shaun

Thanks
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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun Lee

Now that's solid test results.

Here's a tip for email marketers: I open emails based on the Sender column, not the Subject column.

I don't know about other people, but that's me.

It appears that building a brand is more important than the content you give.

-Shaun

I tend to be the same way. I look at the Sender first. Most of the time I'll open it
based on who it is.

One thing I've noticed for a long time now is most email marketers don't send much
quality content. At least the ones I've subscribed to, and that includes the more
recognizable names. I'm on lists of very successful marketers, and the ones I'm with
usually only send offers once in a while. I'll forget I'm on their list until I see another
email offer and think, oh yeah I forgot I'm subscribed to him, or her.

After reading this, I thought about myself and noticed I tend to read less and less
from a lot of people.

Here's a thought for you, Andrew...

I was just looking through my inbox, and I saw emails from a successful marketer,
Sean d'Souza of Psychotactics. World class products, content, and all that. But I
don't read his emails anymore. There's too much info. It's all great stuff, but I'm
usually too busy to go through it. I've saved his emails, and I could probably rewrite
it and sell it as an ebook. I wouldn't, of course, but that's how much he sends.

And, he always includes marketing in his emails. So I think there are a number of
reasons for your experiences. I'm not pretending to know or offer answers, just
feedback.

Thanks
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AndrewHansen

14 years ago

Hey Ken,

Also very interesting. That would seem to indicate that it's worth testing also a longer frequency, because getting too much great info too often lessens it's value in your prospects eyes? Do you think you'd be more inclined to open his emails if there weren't so many of them?

Andrew

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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AndrewHansen

Hey Ken,

Also very interesting. That would seem to indicate that it's worth testing also a longer frequency, because getting too much great info too often lessens it's value in your prospects eyes? Do you think you'd be more inclined to open his emails if there weren't so many of them?

Andrew

I don't think that's the main problem. Just took a look. The first one was
on Feb 27, so almost a month ago. I've received 12 emails from him. So
maybe that's part of it. I never took much notice about the frequency
until just now.

The other thing about his stuff is that right now, hate to say it but his
stuff is a bit pricey. I think his article writing course is about $1200, and
in one of his emails he said he's raising the price.

I'm a little turned off by him because he seems to be a bit aggressive
about how he markets. I think for one of his products, maybe the article
writing product, he stated on his site that you must have bought another
product before you can buy the article writing one. I looked at both, and
it's not rocket science. It's not like you won't understand the article
writing thing if you didn't get the other one, first. Also, he tends to be
pretty quick on the trigger with price increases. That always comes across
as trying to force me to buy. Yes I understand it, but if it's too over the top
then it creates negative feelings.

But he sends good content. He does offer text content. But some things
are only available in audio mp3's. I don't like audio or video. My reading skills
are fine, and I prefer to read.

So maybe the thing is it's a cumulative effect of getting rubbed the wrong
way in multiple ways plus the mismatch with content format preferences.

Thanks

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TheGraduate

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AndrewHansen

Hey Ken,

Also very interesting. That would seem to indicate that it's worth testing also a longer frequency, because getting too much great info too often lessens it's value in your prospects eyes? Do you think you'd be more inclined to open his emails if there weren't so many of them?

Andrew

This is what you are dealing with in the IMing niche:

Most prospects in this niche are signed up to MANY internet marketing type lists, for the most part these are people who are out there looking for a way out of their financial situation, as a result they sign up for everybody and their mothers.

Most of them receive more than 50 or more emails a day from IMers alone to their same inbox, if you do not hit them with your pitch right on the same download page for the free gift your next emails will end up not being read because they do not have the time to go through 50 emails just to make sure that they read yours because you were a nice guy.

It is even better to take them to your opportunity even before they have to come back to their inbox for the confirmation link. if they do not buy that time they probably won't anyways.

Every time I find one of those guys telling me: "within the next 3 weeks you will receive X blah blah" I go: "good luck with that, if you do not tell me what you want me to buy from you now, I won't be able to find your emails later, the email I use to sign up for stuff receives more emails than the white house does"

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AndrewCavanagh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AndrewHansen

When email marketing, your goal is to get people on to your list with a free offer, and gradually, by sending them content that's valuable over time, you build a relationship with them in order to eventually close the sale.

Actually I prefer to get people on my list who've already bought something from me.

Easier to do if you use affiliate marketing and give great commissions to your affiliates.

Making any assumption about the "best" way to market with email is not smart.

You need to test.

The sales process that's most effective will be different for every list.

Incidentally if you really want to convert off your list you should seriously consider using snail mail and especially the telephone as part of your follow up.

That is if you're seriously interested in getting maximum return for your list instead of just arguing over what series of emails or content to pitch ratio will work best.

Telephone follow up will usually increase the return from an email list ten fold...even 100 fold.

Snail mail often gets 2-5 times the return over just using email alone.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

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WealthWinners

14 years ago

When I subscribe to an IM, I already know what is coming. My thought process is, just hurry up and get my the (ebook/video access/boobie prize) so I can hurry up and decide if what you are going to try to pitch me on later is even something I am truly interested in.

Once I get that, I may look at a few more of your emails.

What stops me from reading is when I open the email and I can see it goes past the fold. TOO LONG. So I don't bother reading, just look for the link to see what the pitch is, if there is one.

See, being an internet marketer, I know that the goal of the list is to eventually get someone to buy. So me being on the list means you want me to eventually buy.

If the content is of good quality (like it sounds like yours is), then I would stay on your list.

However, don't email me every day. In fact, after a couple, maybe hold off for a few weeks then surprise me. Has anyone tried that approach?

I swear, I got on a list of someone (who is actually on this forum and apparently a money maker), and I got emails daily and sometimes more than one a day. I got so tired of getting the emails I unsub.

I should not have to open my email and have more than one email within a 24 hour period. That is such a turn off.

Thanks

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Scott Million

14 years ago

Thanks for sharing. Like you said, there are a lot of factors to consider... one that comes to mind is:

- Content of your second email - is there something there that's turning people off?

I've never done the 7 day in a row ecourse deal... that might be viewed as pretty aggressive or intrusive?

Don't know, but again, thanks for sharing your results.

Thanks
1 reply

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AndrewHansen

14 years ago

I started this thread to share and hopefully help others but I've come away from it having learned far more than what I feel I gave.

It is fascinating to hear everyone's different approach to their email marketing, and Andrew like you said, there's no right or wrong, every list has to be tested independently.

In that regard email marketing must be unique as a practice in the online marketing arena in that, for example with SEO or PPC, there's not multiple completely opposing ways to make progress with it... it's not like some people prefer building links and some people find that building links doesn't work haha.

We need more discussion like this, more testing and more experience sharing.

Thanks for the great discussion.

Andrew

Thanks
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Shaun OReilly 14 years ago

Here's my thoughts...

Firstly, it's useful to make offers early on so that people
who want to buy, can buy and you can begin to segment
your list quickly into subscribers and buyers.

Otherwise, hyper-buyers can go cold before being presented
with an offer.

Also, the first content that you give to a new subscriber
is absolutely crucial.

Even giving them great content isn't always the best
strategy.

Why?

Because other people can compete with you easily by
sharing equally good content.

Therefore, find out what makes you and your information
uniquely beneficial to the reader and emphasize that early
on.

Work hard on making your information unique and hard
to ignore.

That way, you position yourself as a person with unique
ideas and as someone who's worth listening to above
the rest of the noise.

Give people unique, fascinating information and they'll
stay with you for longer and be more inclined to open
and read your follow-up messages.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun
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- radhika 14 years ago
  
  First reason I'd thought is the type of niche. I have a list (not related to IM) Health related. Email opening rate is 70% - 85%. In IM niche sometimes it will be 10%. So I strongly believe the niche plays a very important role.
  
  Second reason is the interest of the subscribers. Initially they expect something/want to check and put their feet in the waters and test it ... Once they get to know what your way of presentation, they might lost interest or they are used to the same pitch/content. If you can maintain their interest in first 2 - 3 email, they'd like to open other emails in the ecourse.
  
  .
  
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- Reeveso 14 years ago
  
  Andrew, I think you "may" have gotten 2 things mixed up.
  
  I've always heard that people might not BUY until the 7th time they've seen an advertisement...but I don't think I've ever heard that you shouldn't even give any kind of pitch until the 7th email...
  
  I personally "train" my list by giving them pitches right off the bat, so they're used to it. However it's not ONLY pitches - I also give them ridiculously good content mixed in with it.
  
  I actually just got interviewed for a teleseminar series as an email marketing expert and talked about this same thing - weird I came on and saw this post
  
  Anyway just focus on 3 things and you'll see your CTR's go up.
  
  1) Give high quality content. If you're afraid you're "giving away the farm", that's a GOOD thing (just don't do it too often or you won't have a product to sell!)
  
  2) Be personable - Share stories and make them fall in love with you. This also includes being DIFFERENT than everybody else.
  
  3) Try this "template":
  
  Subject line with a very curiosity-driven theme instead of benefit-oriented. In the body copy, send them to your blog with a video of you giving content, then a pitch
  
  Works like gangbusters, as they say
  
  I hope that helps!
  
  Thanks
  
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Scott Million

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AndrewHansen

I started this thread to share and hopefully help others but I've come away from it having learned far more than what I feel I gave.

It is fascinating to hear everyone's different approach to their email marketing, and Andrew like you said, there's no right or wrong, every list has to be tested independently.

In that regard email marketing must be unique as a practice in the online marketing arena in that, for example with SEO or PPC, there's not multiple completely opposing ways to make progress with it... it's not like some people prefer building links and some people find that building links doesn't work haha.

We need more discussion like this, more testing and more experience sharing.

Thanks for the great discussion.

Andrew

I love this stuff, and am very glad you shared. Maybe a 'list builders' section in this forum would provide a valuable addition - dedicated to list building and list conversion discussion.

Thanks
1 reply

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Dennis Gaskill 14 years ago

Originally Posted by neno

Hey Dennis. Can you please elaborate this thought? Is building a list by giving free stuffs not a good idea?

No, I'm not saying that at all. Freebies work. I'm just saying that when you build a list using freebies as an incentives, you can expect a much higher attrition rate. Many will join to get the freebie but have no intention of reading your emails or sticking around long.
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David Mcalorum

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AndrewHansen

Hey Warriors,

So, tell me if you've heard this one before:

When email marketing, your goal is to get people on to your list with a free offer, and gradually, by sending them content that's valuable over time, you build a relationship with them in order to eventually close the sale.

or "You should send 7 quality free emails before any kind of "pitch""

Generally good advice right?

I know that's always what I was told by the "guru's" about email marketing.

Let me share some test results that seem to flip that theory (in particular the "7 email" part) on it's head.

Keep in mind this example is from the online marketing niche, and may not be typical.
Also, if you have your own autoresponder, you can check these statistics for yourself (in Aweber it's under Reports >> Reports for your chosen list)

Looking at the statistics for open rates and clickthroughs across a series of auto responder messages, I noticed the same pattern on virtually every list in this market, with different autoresponder series of different lengths.

Invariably, the first two emails you'll send have terrifically high open and CTR rates - 40-50% not being uncommon.

But after that, it starts to drop off.. DRAMATICALLY. For my lists (and I send some SERIOUS content... I'm a big believer in the "free line") by emails 6 and 7 (all great free content) the open rate and CTR has dropped to as low as 5-6%! Same thing across so many lists.

That means that by email 6 or 7 you've got 5-10 times LESS people seeing what you have to say... 1000% LESS people seeing your offer, if you wait until email 6-7 to show it to them.

Again, maybe it's just the IM market, being so bombarded with pitches and emails, but while perhaps less dramatic, I can imagine a similar effect taking place in all markets. Everyone has real lives, everyone has other commitments than their quilting, or dog training etc, and the time when they're most excited about what you have to say is the moment they make that decision to sign up... right?

Of course there are a lot of variables at play and it's impossible for me to say from this that you should change strategy and hit people with your pitch as quickly as possible. But it's definitely something to think about, that's for sure.

Personally, I'm going to be doing a little more testing.

Hope you found this valuable.

Andrew

I`m not affiliate, but I believe list control by frank kern can help you
our with this.

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Vanquish 14 years ago

I feel that within the first 3 mails customers go through a state of buying intensity in which they find this exciting report they got for free then they are excited about the possiblities and I think most would take the next step in purchasing but instead we begin to develop a relatiojship with them which isn't bad but their period of "buying intenisty" dies down and they get bored and move onto something new. Hence the drop in open rates and sales
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Raydal

14 years ago

Before any "conclusion" could be had you need to provide
more information. What is the timing of the emails?

What of the subject lines? How do you get these
subscribers? What do you promise them to get
in your list.

If all your list are showing the same pattern then
there must be a common 'mistake' you are making
with your email series. That drop-off is too significant
to think otherwise.

-Ray Edwards

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

Andrew, IMO, it doesn't have to be either or.

I give content with almost every email I send.

I also make a pitch almost every email I send.

Once the relationship is established (I have some people on my lists for 4
years now) you can then mix things up...while still providing relevant info.

I'm not saying this will work for everybody, but it has worked for me since
I started instituting this strategy.

And it's really very simple.

1. Give them the content up front. Make it really good, either with a free
report, email opener or both.

2. Make the product pitch explaining how it relates to the content you
just gave and why you feel it will help them.

It's really no different from a sales page leading to a sale. The only difference
is that instead of a straight sales pitch, it's prefaced with an article of
some kind.

Think of it as an article at EZA leading to a product review leading to a
sales page leading to a close.

The sales process is very flexible and there's no reason why things that
people restrict to article marketing through directories or whatever, can't
be incorporated into list building in a compact form.

I hope I've explained this well, but if not...feel free to ask questions.
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- AndrewHansen 14 years ago
  
  Shaun,
  
  That is killer mate. A LOT to think about there. I'll be testing stuff from this thread all year.
  
  Steve,
  
  Some good points too, I think I get what you mean.
  
  Since this is such a subjective topic, I'd really like to hear from anyone who's done testing with these theories. We can all talk about what we do and what we think's best but to have someone translate them into results and say "I get XX% open rate and XX CTR across XX emails by doing this and this and this" would be supremely valuable IMO.
  
  Deezy, I'm still anxiously awaiting your reply.
  
  Andrew
  
  Thanks
  
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Sylvia Meier

14 years ago

This is how one of my lists goes...

65.00%
56.00%
50.00%
33.00%
0.00%
42.00%
25.00%
40.00%

With 5 being just added into the mix, so I don't think you should be seeing that dramatic of a drop from one email to the next. This list is in the IM area, and emails are sent every 3 days. In those 8 emails 3 are pitches, and the majority of those that have opened have purchased (around 50% open-purchase rate) Granted I am offering them $5-$10 reports, but those do add up. So no I don't agree 7 free emails per pitch.

Another list I have doesn't do quite as well, but it is a freebie seeker list:

42.00%
21.00%
16.00%
24.00%
18.00%
21.00%
15.00%
18.00%

Same thing 3 of those emails contain pitches. Emails sent to this list differ from every 2-4 days.

And then of course are the non-IM niches where I don't think people are so overwhelmed by email marketing, where I do MUCH better.

76.00%
67.00%
57.00%
57.00%
47.00%
54.00%
46.00%
56.00%
54.00%

And with this one every email contains information, but also a pitch and is sent every 4 days.

So I think it all depends very much on the market, your marketing style, repoire with your list and your own testing. Other than that, take all information you are given with a grain of salt and see if it works for you, if it doesn't change it up and try again.

Sylvia

Thanks

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My Bipolar World ~ My Published Book: "Living Bipolar" ~ My Next Book: "Woman Broken, A Child Lost"

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The Email Marketing Guru's Are Wrong? Statistics inside...

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