How many warrios like blackhat methods?

16 years ago

Maybe this makes me an idiot (I've been called worse) but I don't know
what blackhat methods are. I know what the term means, but if you asked
me to even name ONE blackhat method, I couldn't.

I think too many people get hung up on methods instead of just using
common sense such as simply creating useful content for their sites and
using established forms of legit promotion.

Too simple you say?

I don't know. I've been doing that for over 5 years and it hasn't hurt me none.

I sometimes wonder if blackhat is overrated. In other words, the methods are
short lived, if they work at all, and if not, are they really blackhat at all?

Anyway, I'll just keep doing things the way I do them and let others worry
about blackhat, grayhat or whatever.

[ 1 ] Thanks

Signature

My Soundcloud Music Channel

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171278].message }}

GeorgR.

16 years ago

BH is always "illegal" in some way, otherwise it wouldn't be black hat.

From a certain point of view BH is interesting, even more "gray hat" techniques which reside somewhere in a fuzzy area where it is not clear whether it's "illegal" or not.

However, for many, their income depends on their sites/campaigns/ways of marketing...so serious "Black Hat" techniques could endanger their income. If you act against TOS, say, Google, Clickbank etc..etc....you wont have a benefit if all your sites are on Google's ****list and if you get banned by any known affiliate program. In other words...it can be your ruin if a lot of money depends on it.

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

*** Affiliate Site Quick --> The Fastest & Easiest Way to Make Affiliate Sites!<--
-> VISIT www.1UP-SEO.com *** <- Internet Marketing, SEO Tips, Reviews & More!! ***
*** HIGH QUALITY CONTENT CREATION +++ Manual Article Spinning (Thread Here) ***
Content Creation, Blogging, Articles, Converting Sales Copy, Reviews, Ebooks, Rewrites

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171284].message }}

JayXtreme

16 years ago

Almost everything we do as internet marketers would be considered BlackHat by Google...

Writing articles for the purpose of better rankings goes against googles guidelines..

The same with optimising your pages for keywords...

But going by the masses definition of BlackHat.. it really pisses me off, take a look around some of the blackhatter forums out there and see the attitudes on these guys.... it's absurd

Peace

Jay

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Bare Murkage.........

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171305].message }}

Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JayXtreme

Almost everything we do as internet marketers would be considered BlackHat by Google...

Writing articles for the purpose of better rankings goes against googles guidelines..

The same with optimising your pages for keywords...

But going by the masses definition of BlackHat.. it really pisses me off, take a look around some of the blackhatter forums out there and see the attitudes on these guys.... it's absurd

Peace

Jay

Jay, I'm totally confused. How is writing articles black hat as per Google?

If that's the case, why do they rank EZA so high? You'd think that their
site would be totally sandboxed or whatever.

I mean, that's all they do is print articles for people who are looking to
get traffic to their sites.

Please explain...I'm lost. :confused::confused::confused:

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

My Soundcloud Music Channel

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171363].message }}

JayXtreme

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Jay, I'm totally confused. How is writing articles black hat as per Google?

If that's the case, why do they rank EZA so high? You'd think that their
site would be totally sandboxed or whatever.

I mean, that's all they do is print articles for people who are looking to
get traffic to their sites.

Please explain...I'm lost. :confused::confused::confused:

Steve...

Have a look here:

Webmaster Guidelines - Webmaster Help Center

Specifically this bit:

"Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings. A good rule of thumb is whether you'd feel comfortable explaining what you've done to a website that competes with you. Another useful test is to ask, "Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"

Would you submit articles to EZA if it didn't end up ranking in the search engines?.... keyword focused articles are tricks intended to improve search engine ranking...

EZA ranks well because of the inbound links from expert author icons and plenty of good content that is NOT designed to trick the SE's...on the flipside of that is the masses of poor content they accept... EZA suffers it's ranking because it allows users to manipulate the search engines.. it'd be a powerhouse if it tightened it's ship

Peace

Jay

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

Bare Murkage.........

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171402].message }}

Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JayXtreme

Steve...

Have a look here:

Webmaster Guidelines - Webmaster Help Center

Specifically this bit:

"Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings. A good rule of thumb is whether you'd feel comfortable explaining what you've done to a website that competes with you. Another useful test is to ask, "Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"

Would you submit articles to EZA if it didn't end up ranking in the search engines?.... keyword focused articles are tricks intended to improve search engine ranking...

Peace

Jay

In that case Jay, every Internet marketer who creates any kind of content
at all should be banned from Google.

Don't you think maybe this is stretching the "definition" of blackhat a
little too far?

I mean, I don't know. I see a lot of very well respected marketers who
submit articles to EZA.

Are they all using blackhat methods?

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

My Soundcloud Music Channel

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171410].message }}

JayXtreme

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

In that case Jay, every Internet marketer who creates any kind of content
at all should be banned from Google.

Don't you think maybe this is stretching the "definition" of blackhat a
little too far?

I mean, I don't know. I see a lot of very well respected marketers who
submit articles to EZA.

Are they all using blackhat methods?

I added an edit after you quoted me Steve..sorry dude..

Don't get me wrong Steve...

I submit myself....

BUT

Answer me this....

Do you think you write your articles with the intention of getting a good ranking?...

I know I do, so by definition we are using a trick to gain a better ranking in the search engine...

Am I saying it is right or wrong?.. NO

But it is what it is

Peace

Jay

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

Bare Murkage.........

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171424].message }}

JayXtreme 16 years ago

p.s.

For anyone looking at blackhat methods of marketing... not including my little off topic posts above...

You would do better to abosrb everything you can about this:

L.S.I.

Latent Semantic Indexing

Peace

Jay
- Thanks
Signature

Bare Murkage.........
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171432].message }}

Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JayXtreme

I added an edit after you quoted me Steve..sorry dude..

Don't get me wrong Steve...

I submit myself....

BUT

Answer me this....

Do you think you write your articles with the intention of getting a good ranking?...

I know I do, so by definition we are using a trick to gain a better ranking in the search engine...

Am I saying it is right or wrong?.. NO

But it is what it is

Peace

Jay

Hmmm...interesting take on the subject for sure. I really never looked at
it this way.

So, I guess I'm a blackhatter after all.

Who'd a thunk it?

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

My Soundcloud Music Channel

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171434].message }}

ExRat

16 years ago

Hi Steven,

I agree with Jay.

Check this page-

http://www.google.com/support/webmas...n&answer=35769

If you scroll down to quality guidelines, you'll see this -

Quality guidelines - basic principles

Make pages primarily for users, not for search engines. Don't deceive your users or present different content to search engines than you display to users, which is commonly referred to as "cloaking."
Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings. A good rule of thumb is whether you'd feel comfortable explaining what you've done to a website that competes with you. Another useful test is to ask, "Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"
Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's ranking or PageRank. In particular, avoid links to web spammers or "bad neighborhoods" on the web, as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those links.
Don't use unauthorized computer programs to submit pages, check rankings, etc. Such programs consume computing resources and violate our Terms of Service. Google does not recommend the use of products such as WebPosition Gold™ that send automatic or programmatic queries to Google.

Look at the second point above, in particular -

Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings

and

"Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"

So there is nothing inherently wrong with submitting articles in google's eyes. But it only takes one little step further than that...

BUT

To put this all into perspective - Google are a business that have become insanely wealthy by scraping our website content and using it to build a website ranking system (without our explicit permission).

It is most definitely not 'illegal' in any way shape or form to try and game their SERPS. Just because a business makes a lot of money does not mean that their guidelines automatically become law. If any new laws arrive due to companies making a lot of money, they should be purely to control the actions of those companies and to protect the masses - in my oh so humble opinion.

Their guidelines should definitely not stop people from saying and sharing what they want to say and share. That would be 'evil'. Google do not own the internet (or any part of it) any more than we do (except their and our websites respectively).

There is nothing wrong with running an online business and being ignorant of black hat techniques, but there is also nothing wrong with being aware of them, and if you get the opportunity it's well worth it even if you don't plan on using the more hardcore ones, because it may help you to -

a) advise your customers/subscribers

b) protect your money streams

c) give you the bigger picture, which is always wise in my opinion.

HTH

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Roger Davis

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171469].message }}

JayXtreme

16 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Steven,

I agree with Jay.

Check this page-

Webmaster Guidelines - Webmaster Help Center

If you scroll down to quality guidelines, you'll see this -

Look at the second point above, in particular -

and

So there is nothing inherently wrong with submitting articles in google's eyes. But it only takes one little step further than that...

BUT

To put this all into perspective - Google are a business that have become insanely wealthy by scraping our website content and using it to build a website ranking system (without our explicit permission).

It is most definitely not 'illegal' in any way shape or form to try and game their SERPS. Just because a business makes a lot of money does not mean that their guidelines automatically become law. If any new laws arrive due to companies making a lot of money, they should be purely to control the actions of those companies and to protect the masses - in my oh so humble opinion.

Their guidelines should definitely not stop people from saying and sharing what they want to say and share. That would be 'evil'. Google do not own the internet (or any part of it) any more than we do (except their and our websites respectively).

There is nothing wrong with running an online business and being ignorant of black hat techniques, but there is also nothing wrong with being aware of them, and if you get the opportunity it's well worth it even if you don't plan on using the more hardcore ones, because it may help you to -

a) advise your customers/subscribers

b) protect your money streams

c) give you the bigger picture, which is always wise in my opinion.

HTH

VERY true Roger... and to be honest it was a conversation I had with you on this very forum that made me look at things differently...

We are all a part of the same hypocrisy... it's how we work within it that makes our mark...

Thanks Roger... you rock dude...

Peace

Jay

Thanks

Signature

Bare Murkage.........

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171483].message }}

Frank Donovan

16 years ago

Originally Posted by JayXtreme

Webmaster Guidelines - Webmaster Help Center

Specifically this bit:

"Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings. A good rule of thumb is whether you'd feel comfortable explaining what you've done to a website that competes with you.

OK. With all due respect to the big G, that has to be the dumbest piece of advice ever offered by a successful company.

Why on earth should any business feel "comfortable" about revealing its marketing or operating strategy, however legitimate, to a competitor?

Maybe Google should divulge its own algorithm rules to Yahoo?

Frank

Thanks

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171488].message }}

Tuzic Banned 16 years ago

hi,

i never thought of using blackhat & i dont even know what it is!
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171353].message }}

derekwong28

16 years ago

I am being forced to go to the dark side...

Thanks

Signature

Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171472].message }}

dvduval

16 years ago

After getting burned 3-4 years back by participating in Link Vault and the DP coop program, I decided it wasn't worth it, and I don't generally make "throw away" sites. I make sites that will be here for years to come.

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

It is okay to contact me! I have been developing software since 1999, creating many popular products like phpLD.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171476].message }}

ExRat

16 years ago

Hi Derek,

I am being forced to go to the dark side...

I've also been forced to consider my approach (it's constantly under review anyway) but my recent findings suggest that these two factors -

a) search engines getting wise to 'gaming' techniques and reducing their impact

b) search engines giving more weight to user actions while viewing sites

...are making a difference, therefore I'm heading even 'whiter' and simply building with the user's satisfaction as the focus because my off page efforts appear to be producing neutral or negative results.

But there are things to be considered - how many sites (reach) a person/business has and how that affects their findings (in other words, I'm just a little guy in the big scheme so ignore my findings). Plus, different types of sites respond differently to off page efforts (I have found).

But as there are so many types of 'dark side' activities (EG gaming SERPS, gaming affiliate programs etc) and I'm just talking about 'improving SERPs' therefore my point might be entirely irrelevant to you Derek

And I'm not about to ask you to clarify.

Edit - Hi Jay,

VERY true Roger... and to be honest it was a conversation I had with you on this very forum that made me look at things differently...

We are all a part of the same hypocrisy... it's how we work within it that makes our mark...

Thanks Roger... you rock dude...

Peace

Jay

Thanks mate, but in the interest of full disclosure, I think it was Kurt who originally made me think along those type of lines. So I'm just riding the re-cycle like everyone else.

Oops! I wasn't meant to mention that was I? ;-)

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Roger Davis

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171500].message }}

JayXtreme 16 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

So I'm just riding the re-cycle like everyone else.

Oops! I wasn't meant to mention that was I? ;-)

Ain't we all?...

Peace

Jay
- Thanks
Signature

Bare Murkage.........
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171530].message }}

IM_Geek

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dvduval

After getting burned 3-4 years back by participating in Link Vault and the DP coop program, I decided it wasn't worth it, and I don't generally make "throw away" sites. I make sites that will be here for years to come.

Guess I'm too new and perhaps too naive, but I fully support this opinion. I'd rather put my time into something worthwhile, something gratifying and something I can look back on.

Not loot and pillage upon the wallets of unsuspecting surfers, whilst filling the web with wastes of space.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171542].message }}

Ricter 16 years ago

I think marketers and google co-evolve as a result of the competition between "blackhat" methods, and google's increasingly sophisticated algorithm. The result of that is a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it remains a challenge to some of us to avoid the peddling of goods online when it's quiet knowledge we seek. On the other hand, this natural selection gives the internet, in so far as google "is" the internet for some, a degree of immunity to scarier challenges, like those potentially created by the bestial, the hysterical, or the tyrannical among us. I don't know, perhaps I overstate this.
- Thanks
Signature

- For your import/export/customs questions or problems, send PM.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171647].message }}

Curt Dillion

16 years ago

I agree with most of Jay's views. I've never considered black hat to be illegal. Although, illegal methods of making money do fall into that category.

Essentially there are two camps for IM; business men and opportunists.

White hat usually involves building a business that increases income over time.

The opportunists fall more into the black hat area. Often it's a quick cash fix and on to the next one. It's not necessarily illegal, or even immoral. Who wouldn't jump at a back door entrance after we've been beating on the front door without success? Who wouldn't jump at an opportunity for a quick cash infusion?

I've personally been bitten by well known IMers who did a big launch for products in the $200 to $1000 range, but the real worth was less than $50. They had "testimonials" from other big IMers, who were also selling the product. It's not illegal, but it certainly falls under black hat in my view.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171489].message }}

Fabian Tan

16 years ago

Do both, build two sites, one driven by white hat methods and the other using black hat methods.

Either that, or go 'grey hat' and use tactics from both sides.

Don't make up your mind too easily.

Fabian

Thanks

Signature

High Quality Solo Ads: Get 100 To 1,000 Quality, Targeted Clicks In The Internet Marketing Niche!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171517].message }}

derekwong28

16 years ago

Roger, I confirm that it is not for improving SERPs

Thanks

Signature

Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[171658].message }}

How many warrios like blackhat methods?

Trending Topics

How do I effectively build and nurture an email list for affiliate marketing purposes?

Are billboards still effective in driving customers?

Are Solo ADs the Most Cost Effective Way to Promote your Product?

Been a while! Any of you Old Timers here?

How much does the rebranding affect CR ?