Do you have a business or are you just doing IM?

51 replies
Hi Warriors,

I've spoken to a few people lately offline (including many warriors) and I keep seeing something that I decided I'd ask you about.

There are many reasons why people turn to making money online, predominantly it seems that most people are doing it to get away from some sort of negativity in their normal life - a job they hate, a sense of failure or hopelessness, debt problems etc....

The fact that all you need is a computer and internet connection (or access to one) to get started also means that you don't really have much to lose when you start except your time.

This seems to result in many people not actually taking their business seriously and treating it like a hobby or a get-rich-quick attempt which will probably fail.

Sometimes people get hooked on learning all the cool sounding techniques and technologies and forget that they meant to use it to earn money too.

So, what I keep seeing is people either thinking of IM strategies as a business in their own right, or thinking that IM fits everything and trying to 'IM' everything they see.


While you can certainly keep yourself busy doing IM things, that's not the same as building a business and the approach and structure you would normally use to build a business often seems lacking with IM businesses.

I used to do every IM strategy I could also so I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this - but these days I have a more pragmatic view and realise that not every IM strategy is appropriate for all situations, and in fact trying to fit them into all situations can have a negative effect on business.

So it made me wonder how many Warriors are keeping busy doing IM activities but don't actually have a business on which to focus those things, and so are left trying things and 'hoping' for good results without actually having any good reason to expect them except for maybe that someone else said it worked for them.

I know that not many people are likely to accept that they're still dabbling rather than creating a business but I thought I'd ask the question just so that people could consider it and maybe look at how to improve their model to the point where they can realistically expect the results they want rather than doing things and hoping for results.

I think the recent Twitter flurry reminded me of this as it's another one of those things that people are now jumping on in the hope that it will somehow make them money just because other people are telling them it does.

I think that before you spend any amount of time on something you should at least get clear about what your expectations are and whether they're realistic.

Your friend.

Andy
#business
  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    for me the only thing that is keeping me from actually making a business instead of just promoting some affiliate products or some low price products of my own is the fact that I don't have the money and the knowledge yet to make all the stuff "legal", Like you guys have in the US LLC or Inc and stuff like that, those cost some money to make and also some money to keep them going.

    I realized that the actual way to make good money online is to have a business online and not just promoting stuff, there is a big difference between those 2.
    A good example would be: lets take site flippers, they make websites and then sell them..most of them (at least from alot that I know) do the work themselves and make 3-4K$ ,some more, now that is just promoting some stuff/selling some stuff.

    A business is when you know how to flip websites...you know how to sell them...and to get to point of making 10-15K$ or more you have to start outsourcing the content creation, thus investing some of the money back so you can make more. You can go to the next level and really create "business in a box" type of websites, and invest money in PPC and stuff so you have some traffic coming and then sell it for alot more.

    There are alot of stuff that one can do to go from just promoting to making a business.
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    • Profile picture of the author jboyd
      I recently made a decision to bow out from a paid IM forum that I have belonged to for the past year. I started "monkeying around" with IM one year ago September. Below is a reprint of my exit post. I thought it was somewhat relevant to your topic. It was only when I fell back and regrouped with all the seriousness I could gather, did my project start to blossom.

      *Reprint*
      I have chosen the path of marketing hard goods, but in an online venue. I am not able to put to use most of the tips, trick and techniques that work for the IM Market. Within my niche, my goal is to extract income from a pain based transaction, by making it as painless as possible and by being the authority within my niche. I know that in and of itself this parallels IM, but I still feel the need to move on and now concentrate on what appears to be working and apply my resources to growing my active niche.

      I do want to leave you with a piece of advice that I know gets touched on from time to time, but seems to always be overshadowed by an ever increasing environment of micro thoughts and plans.

      MAKE A PLAN, MAKE IT BIG and STICK TO IT!!!

      Back in January I was trying to build BANS sites, creating a Squeeze Page, Working Clickbank, Adsense, Linkshare and trying every little tip, trick and technique that was being discussed here on MST and over on Warrior. One day I just collapsed. It hit me. Unless I come up with the next eBay, YouTube or some other revolutionary idea, (and trust me, this brain is all but empty) I was going to starve, period! I know that multiple streams is the theme of MST, and for many it is good, but for Jay, it is not. I am wired different.

      So, I sat down and made a plan. I planned out the rest of 08, all of next year, and to the end of 2010. I mapped out every move over the course of the next 22 months and have stuck to that map like it was my GPS. The plan included the physical needs, the content needs, the division of responsibility, financial, and the collection of needed resources.

      Our sites have been built and after implementing the above plan to the letter, along with adjustments in course (that is part of the plan too ya know:-) our business is starting to take off. For the first few months we proved our abilities. We built and launched our sites, we received orders and processed them. We started rinsing and repeating as we improved on areas we saw holes in and stayed with the things that were working. We advertise, we create content and we continue to keep it fresh. After our first quarter in business, the expected (part of the plan) and greatly anticipated (and needed) growth started to happen. We are starting to get daily requests for quotes and information which fills up our pipeline (funnel for you IM folks) which in turn results in conversions. We are experiencing daily sales, and having customers place $3,000 - $4,000 orders in our shopping cart and check out without ever picking up the phone is starting to become common place. This is a testament to having created a site that works for the buyer. We do not touch a single item as everything is drop shipped. I sit in gym shorts and tee-shirt and conduct all of this business. I have only bought one tank of gas in a month and I am starting to be able to communicate with my cats. In this regard, I guess I fit the profile of the IM guy.

      In closing, I want to repeat; Jim's site is great and is a wealth of information for those seeking the multiple stream approach. I want to thank Jim, Ron and others who made this site available. On a fateful day about a year ago, I was sitting in a coffee shop with my laptop and found MST. It was a good day!

      Jay Boyd
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  • Profile picture of the author ShayB
    I have a business, and I am using IM to promote it.

    I am not doing this to escape a job. I am a homeschooling mom - a "job" I will have for at least another 14 years. (Talk about job security! LOL)

    We have a comfortable life. Not flashy or rich, but comfortable. Very little debt, money for fun stuff.

    But I know, deep down, that if I want true financial freedom, it will come from what I am doing now - building a business from home with my computer.

    That is why I am doing this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Emailrevealer
      I have a business. I came to WF learn how to promote my web site.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Long
    Hi Andy!

    Miss seeing you on Phil Wiley's old board.

    Whoo boy, can I relate to this one.

    I've been at this for a very long time now. I started studying internet marketing as a hobby way back in 1999. (Anyone remember AllAdvantage.com and the "Paid to Surf" schemes?) Because I was more interested in studying IM then actually making money in it, I didn't earn my first dollar online until April 2003.

    Then I started to get more serious. I quit my job and went full time in IM late in 2004.

    I've generated over half a million dollars online since then.

    And now I'm starting all over again from scratch.

    What in the world happened?

    Simple really. Starting with the page generation tidal wave, I devolved into some exceptionally bad habits. I started chasing the quick, easy money instead of using solid foundations to build a lasting business.

    In short, my "business" wasn't a business at all. It was just a series of money-makers that had no long-term future. I'd throw a bunch of "stuff" at the wall, and luckily, enough of it has stuck to keep me self-employed for the past four years.

    Having finally seen myself for what I have become (an opportunist instead of a businessman) I am determined to use all of the knowledge I've gained over the past 9 years, and put it to good use by building a long-term, sustainable business that will give others at least as much (if not more) value from it then I receive in compensation.

    It's one of the reasons I've come back here after nearly three years away, and why I'm using my real name instead of hiding behind a "handle" as I did previously - even though it might look better to use my old account from a "how long he's been a Warrior" standpoint, and even though I have to start all over again with my post count.

    To anyone reading this who wants to do IM full-time, but doesn't think of the process in traditional business terms, I hope my story serves as a warning. If I weren't making this massive change right now, I'd be back to working for someone else within 6-12 months. I have too many years invested in this to go that route.

    Build a real online business, and use a basic offline business model as your foundation. Create value for others, provide unreal customer service. Do the things required of any business - online or off - and you'll find success that's both effective and lasting.

    ~Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Hi Mike,

      I really appreciate you being open enough to share your story - it's exactly the message I was hoping to share with the thread.

      I'll drop by Phils forum and say hi.

      I'll be in Australia and New Zealand next month so I'll see if Phil's around.

      Regards,

      Andy


      Originally Posted by Mike Long View Post

      Hi Andy!

      Miss seeing you on Phil Wiley's old board.

      Whoo boy, can I relate to this one.

      I've been at this for a very long time now. I started studying internet marketing as a hobby way back in 1999. (Anyone remember AllAdvantage.com and the "Paid to Surf" schemes?) Because I was more interested in studying IM then actually making money in it, I didn't earn my first dollar online until April 2003.

      Then I started to get more serious. I quit my job and went full time in IM late in 2004.

      I've generated over half a million dollars online since then.

      And now I'm starting all over again from scratch.

      What in the world happened?

      Simple really. Starting with the page generation tidal wave, I devolved into some exceptionally bad habits. I started chasing the quick, easy money instead of using solid foundations to build a lasting business.

      In short, my "business" wasn't a business at all. It was just a series of money-makers that had no long-term future. I'd throw a bunch of "stuff" at the wall, and luckily, enough of it has stuck to keep me self-employed for the past four years.

      Having finally seen myself for what I have become (an opportunist instead of a businessman) I am determined to use all of the knowledge I've gained over the past 9 years, and put it to good use by building a long-term, sustainable business that will give others at least as much (if not more) value from it then I receive in compensation.

      It's one of the reasons I've come back here after nearly three years away, and why I'm using my real name instead of hiding behind a "handle" as I did previously - even though it might look better to use my old account from a "how long he's been a Warrior" standpoint, and even though I have to start all over again with my post count.

      To anyone reading this who wants to do IM full-time, but doesn't think of the process in traditional business terms, I hope my story serves as a warning. If I weren't making this massive change right now, I'd be back to working for someone else within 6-12 months. I have too many years invested in this to go that route.

      Build a real online business, and use a basic offline business model as your foundation. Create value for others, provide unreal customer service. Do the things required of any business - online or off - and you'll find success that's both effective and lasting.

      ~Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Barbara Eyre
        My online story is a LONG one, so I won't bore ya with the details. Basically, I started an online store almost 2 years ago, learning on my own how to do a bunch of webmaster related stuff ... so it took longer than the norm to get it going.

        I have dabbled in IM but have been unsuccessful as I wasn't learning the right things at the time or I wasn't understanding them, or a combo.

        However, things have changed and are taking off.

        1) I still have that online store

        2) I am building a 2nd online store

        3) I am beginning to do affiliate/article marketing (Thank you Steven W!)

        4) I work from home building websites for someone's clients ... and will be acquiring the whole business in a few months (100+ clients and hosting company).

        I use everything I learn here at WF and from other sources to work on my client's sites and my own.

        Time management and my health have been the biggest problems for me ... but am slowly getting them straightened out also!
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Thanks Barbara,

          Can I ask - if you have a store (and a second one coming) - Why you're doing affiliate marketing rather than promoting your own stores?

          Since affiliate marketing is less profitable than selling your own products I'm just wondering what made you think it was a good way to divert your time.

          Also with the article marketing - I very often use articles to support my websites, but I stopped using them for affiliate marketing a few years ago since the revenue from affiliate marketing never matches promoting my own products in the long term and you're just making money for other peoples business rather than building your own.

          I do quite often put affiliate product recommendations (where appropriate) in my own email autoresponders to help my customers get more and to add to my revenue stream, but it's almost always done after they've already come in to my business and not as affiliate marketing being an activity on its own.

          Andy


          Originally Posted by Barbara Eyre View Post

          My online story is a LONG one, so I won't bore ya with the details. Basically, I started an online store almost 2 years ago, learning on my own how to do a bunch of webmaster related stuff ... so it took longer than the norm to get it going.

          I have dabbled in IM but have been unsuccessful as I wasn't learning the right things at the time or I wasn't understanding them, or a combo.

          However, things have changed and are taking off.

          1) I still have that online store

          2) I am building a 2nd online store

          3) I am beginning to do affiliate/article marketing (Thank you Steven W!)

          4) I work from home building websites for someone's clients ... and will be acquiring the whole business in a few months (100+ clients and hosting company).

          I use everything I learn here at WF and from other sources to work on my client's sites and my own.

          Time management and my health have been the biggest problems for me ... but am slowly getting them straightened out also!
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          • Profile picture of the author Barbara Eyre
            Because the affiliate products compliment the niche of my current store (and one for a friend/client site that I am part owner of) because they offer products I currently can not supply otherwise, but I know my target audience is interested in.

            And I do promote my current store - online and offline just fine.

            Sorry - I kept my initial post short because it would take awhile to explain each facet of what I have going and how they tie into each other. But everything I do ties into each other - all within the same or complementary niche.


            Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

            Thanks Barbara,

            Can I ask - if you have a store (and a second one coming) - Why you're doing affiliate marketing rather than promoting your own stores?

            Since affiliate marketing is less profitable than selling your own products I'm just wondering what made you think it was a good way to divert your time.

            Also with the article marketing - I very often use articles to support my websites, but I stopped using them for affiliate marketing a few years ago since the revenue from affiliate marketing never matches promoting my own products in the long term and you're just making money for other peoples business rather than building your own.

            I do quite often put affiliate product recommendations (where appropriate) in my own email autoresponders to help my customers get more and to add to my revenue stream, but it's almost always done after they've already come in to my business and not as affiliate marketing being an activity on its own.

            Andy
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        • Profile picture of the author jhongren
          Hi Andy,

          When I first started, I also started from my wedding blog which was meant to be a gift for my wife.

          When I got more serious into IM, I find that what I knew at that time was not enough.

          I was really puzzled when my first mentor told me that he was not here to help me make more money, but he was going to build my business mindset.

          I was feeling confused then..."Hey I signed up for your mentoring to make more money. Why am I learning all these mindset stuff?"

          In my own opinion, now I thank him for what he had taught me and how he had opened up my mind in identifying possibilities and understanding how consumers buy.

          When I relate it back now, it is similar to finding the hot niche and fitting the right product for that niche. And whatever we do, it has to be aligned with our interest and what we really enjoy doing.

          I was reading the E-Myth revisited and one thing that dawned on me is that am I building myself in the business or building on my business?

          Another question posed in the book is if my business is serving me or the other way round?

          These two questions may sound simple but at least 80 - 90% of small business owners design the business with them inside the system and they work hard for their business.

          They can't seem to be a day they can take a break.

          I am guilty of that too. I have to keep checking my emails, working on my products, sales pages, more customer supports and so on. It is an endless cycle.

          I finally understood these two principles and now I am designing how do I liberate myself from the system and make it as automatic as possible.

          As for making sure that I do not work like a slave for my business, I am asking myself which part of my business is giving me 80% of the profits and only taking up 20% of my resources.

          In fact, I took the last weekend off (it is not easy to not touch my pc) and spent time with my wife. And what had pulled me through somehow then was Andy's reminder in one of his earlier post...he can chill out any time he wants and I am going to learn that...

          "I can take a break anytime I want..."

          My 2 cents,
          John
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Those are good points John.

            Some people start their IM business without considering that if it really was successful - would they be happy with what that meant. (i.e if success means you end up spending all your time doing something that makes you no more than your old job and you'd rather be doing something else with your time - perhaps you should reconsider the model before you start).

            Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
    Interesting thread Andy as usual.

    I actually own a corporation but I didn't decide to join twitter for that reason,

    but instead to use it as it was intended, as a social network just because

    I felt like connecting with some others who are using it and because of the novelty of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by DougBarger View Post

      Interesting thread Andy as usual.

      I actually own a corporation but I didn't decide to join twitter for that reason,

      but instead to use it as it was intended, as a social network just because

      I felt like connecting with some others who are using it and because of the novelty of it.
      Funnily enough - I own a company too, but my use of twitter has nothing to do with that. I would have to be pretty warped to try and shoehorn the use of Twitter into that business model just for the sake of it.

      That business actually still has zero online marketing done. I haven't found the need or desire to mix IM in with it yet and it's now 2 years old and selling a $100k software product.
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      • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        Funnily enough - I own a company too, but my use of twitter has nothing to do with that. I would have to be pretty warped to try and shoehorn the use of Twitter into that business model just for the sake of it.

        That business actually still has zero online marketing done. I haven't found the need or desire to mix IM in with it yet and it's now 2 years old and selling a $100k software product.

        I can only imagine how many lines of code or what the software does!
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by DougBarger View Post

          I can only imagine how many lines of code or what the software does!
          If you PM me - I'll tell you.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    Andy,

    I was surprised the other day to hear how many people make almost nothing with their IM efforts. This is precisely the point. The people are making IM efforts, not IM businesses. They come to forums like this and jump from one idea (blog flipping included) to another looking for that big score. In the meantime, they waste years of their lives dissipating their efforts instead of focusing them and profiting from them.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      I knew I couldn't be the only person here who sees things in this sort of way.

      Thanks for the replies, I hope a few people get the power of what's been said and repeated here.


      Andy
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      • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
        Andy, if we think about it, this kind of business activity is as old as the hills. If we take your question,

        "Do you have a business or are you just doing IM?"

        Well that could easily be, "Do you have a business or are you just a mobile hairdresser?" (or a window cleaner, or a party planner etc)

        Lots of folk start with the perceived money-making element of a business and just jump right on in and attempt to make money. They might never have the intention of starting a business as such, it's just a way of making extra cash.

        Once they begin to make money they might start calling it their business and sometimes will frantically attempt to bolt on decent business practices around their 'job'.

        I did this with my first business. I was 19 and a friend asked me to build him some speaker cabinets for his PA company. He paid me in cash and pointed me to other folk who could be customers. I didn't have a clue about business, I could make boxes though so that's what I did and that's all I was interested in. But the business wasn't built with any foundations, if you like, it was top heavy, with me just making things for customers that I happened to meet. It toppled over and collapsed because I wasn't running it as a business, it had no structure, it wasn't based on a business model of any kind and was always doomed to fail.

        Maybe I needed to experience this, but it helped me realise that any business, not matter how small, no matter how 'lifestyle', needs to be built from the ground up, with the appropriate structure and elements of a good business.

        Peter
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    • Profile picture of the author David Neale
      I have owned an Internet business since 1995. I make all of my income from selling to small business. I don't think I've ever sold anything to another individual. Not yet anyway.

      I've watched with interest the latest trend of selling to the "offline" world of business and the local market. That presents a far greater possibility of success in my view than everybody trying to sell to each other. It's also easier to see yourself as a business when you are selling to other businesses.

      I also find it rather amusing when the the term "Internet Marketer" is used so freely. In my opinion the vast majority of the individuals doing business here are actually "Internet Salespeople".

      Big difference.

      Marketing to me is what you do before you make the sales presentation. Your brand, reputation, image etc. Not many bother thinking about that and instead call themselves an Internet Marketer just because they are using the Internet to make money.

      If somebody simply uses AdWords to send traffic to a review page to earn commission from an affiliate product for example I don't think that makes them an Internet Marketer.

      That makes them a commissioned salesperson.

      Thus they aren't building a business. They have just created what may be a very cool job (or not).
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  • Profile picture of the author James Schramko
    I run a business. It exists to create and retain clients.

    Coming from a high paid senior managerial role I have approached my IM stuff like a business even though it is also my passion and I derive a lot of joy from it. In fact - that is why I chose it.
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  • Profile picture of the author laynee
    Hi Andy,
    I'm one of those who treats what I do here as a hobby, because it is a hobby for me. I don't really aspire to have a full-fledged business, I wouldn't have the time for it anyway. (Who knows, that may change at some point...if it does, I'll have a fair bit of accumulated marketing knowledge at my disposal from hanging out here). I have other work that I quite enjoy...I just happen to like building websites and putting together projects too. What can I say...some people like to golf...some knit...some design websites.
    Cheers,
    Laynee
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    • Profile picture of the author richdirtygirl
      Now we are talking!

      Bottom line: not everyone has the knowledge and organization skills to run a business.

      If you do and get into IM or Internet sales... you will do it as a business.

      If you are a "professional" and get into IM, you bring that mindset with you.

      If you are an employee, you bring it with you.

      I am not talking about how you make your living, but how your brain is wired.

      The good news... everything can be learned... to have a business too...

      The next question would be: why should I?

      Well... I don't know. Different people have different expectations and it is OK.

      Going after the last trick is not right or wrong... it has consequences. That's it.

      As long as you really try it and go all the way, you will be learning. That's good enough for me...

      it all comes back to the same, isn't it? take action?

      No matter how many books you read... you only get good in bed doing it.

      BUT, there is always a but... the truth is: nobody can do real money working alone in the long run. You need the work of others added. So to do real money, you will need a business.

      What is it gonna be?

      RDG :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I'm not sure I believe that you need a business to make great money - it's so easy to do it without a business, but the thing that is missing when you're a dabbler is a realistic expectation about what the future holds and how to make your desired future happen.

    You can make money in many ways but if your gig is article marketing, you end up in a boat you don't control and waiting for results you can't predict. It's not the way you'd run an offline business where you're expected to understand the ROI of any particular type of activity.

    I've made money in lots of ways online, some of the quick and easy, some not - but when I first started realising how to make 6 figures I still didn't actually have a business plan and I was just doing more of whatever I liked and knew would make money.

    I could start 100 different types of website tomorrow and know they'd make money but that's completely different to deciding what I want for my future and creating a vehicle to get me there - i.e a plan for how to create the result I want on purpose, rather than just doing stuff to make money and hoping I end up in a position I like.

    Andy
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    • Profile picture of the author richdirtygirl
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      I'm not sure I believe that you need a business to make great money - it's so easy to do it without a business, but the thing that is missing when you're a dabbler is a realistic expectation about what the future holds and how to make your desired future happen.

      You can make money in many ways but if your gig is article marketing, you end up in a boat you don't control and waiting for results you can't predict. It's not the way you'd run an offline business where you're expected to understand the ROI of any particular type of activity.

      I've made money in lots of ways online, some of the quick and easy, some not - but when I first started realising how to make 6 figures I still didn't actually have a business plan and I was just doing more of whatever I liked and knew would make money.

      I could start 100 different types of website tomorrow and know they'd make money but that's completely different to deciding what I want for my future and creating a vehicle to get me there - i.e a plan for how to create the result I want on purpose, rather than just doing stuff to make money and hoping I end up in a position I like.

      Andy
      Mmmmm Is it because I'm blond?

      Language is interesting... every word matters...

      Of course you can do great money working alone if you have a good nose for money...

      But in the long run, working alone you hit the wall. Why? Suppose you want to have a second honeymoon with your wife and you work alone... money will probably go on coming in for a while, but you will have to pause ads and without pimping the organic links might lose weight and fade.

      Now, I see a business as an organization that has life being you there or not. In that case, you give some instructions and everything go on working smoothly without you (hopefully).

      Shhhhhhhhhh I run out of fun things to say... will better go out and go shopping with my friends...

      RDG :p
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  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    At the moment, while I'd consider I'm running my graphics venture like a business - it is merely a mechanism to pay off existing personal debts.

    Therefore, no money is going back into "the business" in order to invest into its future.

    Once those personal debts are paid off, I will be starting from scratch (in terms of being a business entity) - re-evaluating my position and making crucial decisions on the direction I wish to take myself.

    I estimate this to be sometime before the start of the new tax year.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I do both...I have a business and I also do stupid sh*t.

      I have my products, funnels and traffic generation in place. I make my
      steady income from most stuff that has been built up over the past few
      years.

      I also do nonsensical things like go to Google Hot Trends, find something
      stupid, put it up on a blog, social bookmark it and actually make an extra
      $500 in a day. It's fun, doesn't take a lot of time and doesn't take away
      from my "business".

      Having said that, if people don't want to have a business, why should they
      be forced to have one? Not everybody wants a business. Some folks just
      want to make a few extra bucks a month to pay off their Honda Civic that's
      costing them $350 a month.

      My problem is with those in their ivory tower who feel that if you're not
      running a "business" complete with front end, back end, funnel, automated
      traffic generation, a site that can take down wall street and all the other
      fancy doodads, that they're not serious and shouldn't be doing anything
      at all.

      Well, maybe they're not serious. So what? But to say that they're wasting
      their time doing stupid sh*t is not for us to say.

      If somebody wants to just pay off their Honda, they can do that by just
      doing IM.

      If somebody wants to make $20,000 a month or more, then yes, they
      better build a business, cause I don't see taking pot shots at Google
      Hot Trends as having that kind of potential.

      Point is, a business isn't for everybody and if it's not for them, it shouldn't
      be shoved down their throats.

      Please note, I am not saying that anybody here is trying to shove a
      business down anybody's throat. I am just speaking in general.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi,

        Some threads I feel it's much better for me to just lurk and learn. This is one of them, and I'm learning a lot. This is a subject I'm really interested in as I design and tweak my own plan.

        I want to creep out of lurk mode and just add that all of the posts here are helping me and are appreciated. I'm pleased to see that two opposing points of view are developing because as long as no-one takes the hump, I think this thread is about to get to that point where the really important stuff arrives (when both opposing sides start to 'meet' and the participants and lurkers can really learn about the underlying principles of either side's businesses/hobbies ).

        One thing that would make this thread perfect (but probably isn't going to happen) is if Allen would join in. I read as much of what he writes as I can find, and the reason I would like that is because many of the ideas that he shares are quite opportunistic and the way he explains those ideas they are more 'money-maker' than 'business' (using business in the most rigid sense) - therefore I would love to see his input here.

        I'm at a pivotal point in my online career, where many of the efforts I have made in the last couple of years in a certain direction have turned out to be more of educational value than financial - which is fine (although that wasn't the plan), as I am still partly in student mode.

        But this needs to change and so does my direction, and it will imminently. So my main point is - thanks for sharing your thoughts in this thread as it is helping me to brainstorm my plan, and please continue to add more if you would be so kind.
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        • Profile picture of the author TheRealDomainer
          This is a great thread!!

          You make more money on IM when you make it a business and not the get-quck money mindedness.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    If I pay taxes on the money I earn online, it's a business, and I really don't care what anyone else's OPINION of what a business is or isn't.

    Hey Andy...If I have a plan or not, build a list or not, doesn't mean I have a business or not. If I make money, I have a business. Could some things help improve the efficiency of my business? Yes.

    But they also may get in the way of my living a lifestyle I want to live, which is why I have a business in the first place. My business must fit around my lifestyle, not the other way around.

    And I don't understand your point that creating 100 different types of websites that make money isn't a business?

    Again, I define "business" as making money...And, the majority of definitions given by the define: business Google search agrees with my definition:
    define: business - Google Search

    It seems this definition has been distorted by some that feel in order to have a "business", everything you do should be to make more money.

    But, if it makes everyone (not directed at Andy) feel better, you can say I have a "money making hobby"...That's fine with me. But the IRS (our tax agency) still calls it a business, if you make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tuzic
    Banned
    hi,

    great thread, thanks a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Long
    Some good points have been brought up regarding exactly what constitutes a business, in addition to the very fair (and real) point that some people have no intention or desire to do this full time.

    I think in both instances, you might be able to boil it down to two things:

    1) Do you have some sort of plan you are following?
    2) Do you want to make money (even a small amount) consistently over the long term?

    If your answer to #2 is yes, then I think it follows that your answer to #1 also needs to be yes.

    I don't know if anyone is saying that you need to seek out an attorney, and write up a 40 page business plan for your company in order to be considered a "real business" (at least I'm definitely not).

    But again, speaking from some unfortunate personal experience here, I think *anyone* who wishes to earn any amount of money online for an extended period of time needs to have some sort of a plan of action, and needs to follow it on a pretty consistent basis without straying too far from it.

    The old tired adage "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail" does seem to fit very well in the IM world, whether your goal is to make $50/month online or $50,000/month.
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    • Profile picture of the author jbsmith
      Mike - there may be one more important fundamental thing at play here...

      - Are you committed to offering ongoing value to a market segment you can both
      reach and understand

      To me, the difference between someone who is operating an ineffective business versus a very effective, long-term, growing business is the degree to which they 1) focus on their market 2) Understand the underlying challenges, desires and emotions of their market and 3) is committed to ongoing delivery of value to that market.

      I remember back in 2000 when I first decided to develop my own training products and market them online -- after years of doing so offline.

      I (along with many others at the time) read through Corey Rudl's "Insider Secrets" course and couldn't believe the huge potential IM offered to reach markets and distribute products...BUT THEN

      A few days after reviewing his entire course I thought, this course is ONLY useful for those who already have a business...who already KNOW what they want to offer their market AND understand that their market wants what they have to offer.

      What I saw happening was a massive number of business opportunity seekers who looked at IM as a business in itself...that magically by putting some products in front of internet users they would want what they were offering...therein lies the trap.

      Instead - businesses are built on a deep understanding of their customers, a fundamental committment to delivering value (either through services or products).

      It was shortly after reading Corey's course that I put out my first product which was exactly to fill that gap - a business and product idea generator and testing system so that people would have a process and system where they could get a handle on WHAT business they were in first, then be able to use the amazing marketing techniques he was teaching at the time.

      Since then, I've started 3 different businesses where IM was involved - 1 is sold and 2 others continue growing. Lots of fun!

      Jeff
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Allen
    There was a discussion a couple of weeks ago on this same topic. I forget who the woman was, but she had a lot of great points. One that stood out in my mind was that by focusing on building a business, you're actually creating an asset that you could potentially sell down the road.

    It seemed as though for some reason a lot of people couldn't grasp that idea.

    Everybody is unique in what exactly they want to accomplish. And that's great. That's their choice.

    But for me, I'd prefer to build "virtual real estate" that I can sell down the road for even more money.
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  • Profile picture of the author bondingmuc
    These are all great points. When it comes down to it, the businesses that alway survive are ones that consistently attract a particular clientel. IM as a business itself, with no real product or concept to stand on, may work temporarily but not in the long run. IM should merely be an aid--another form of sales/advertising to back up an already existing or conretely up and coming business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    To be honest, there is only one part of my online income that I run as a business.

    The rest is just doing different things. Don't get me wrong, I still keep records of everything, and am in it to profit. But the majority of what I do feels more like having fun than anything else.

    That being said, of the many things I do online the one I treat like a business makes as much as all of the rest combined.

    Looks like it's time for me to focus.

    ~Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author surfnowworklater
    is it a business or not a business...who cares! Are you making money? Yes? OK stick to it and make some more.
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Boisvert
      I think that someone who performs "techniques" or uses them for profit will certainly see short term gains, while someone who thinks more "business minded" will see sustainable long term profits.

      Everyone has a certain mindset as stated in this thread. IM can be anything to everyone, it's all what YOU want out of it.

      I like playing around with different techinques and continuing to learn daily. For example I started using Twitter yesterday for the first time. Not only do I find it interesting and different, I can also use it for business reasons as well. I can monitor what others are doing so I can learn new things, I can keep in contact with friends, and I can use it for promotion so others know what I am doing and working on.

      Twitter for example is a "system" or a "tool" that I can use how I see fit. Would I base my business around it? Hell no. But technically one could...teaching others how to use it and selling info about it, developing applications for it...all could be a business.

      FOR ME, I come from a business owning background. I am online to make money and make friends. I look at everything as a business opportunity, and that is my makeup. But if someone just wants extra cash each month, more power to them. IM can be whatever you want it to be.

      My goal is to own multiple small online businesses that run on autopilot. Autopilot meaning that it doesn't rely on ME 100% to run it. I could have employees and managers handle the day-to-day operations while I look for other ventures and opportunities. The $$ generated from my businesses pays my bills and keeps my employees happy. That is MY goal. Should my goal be yours? Nope. To each their own.

      Some people enjoy just "putzing" around online trying new things, and makeing a couple hit and miss dollars here and there. If they like it, then as stated, I am happy for them.

      We are ALL individuals with a common interest and uncommon purposes. We can all coexist and learn from each other...its what each of us does with that knowledge that seperates us. There is no wrong or right here.

      ~Keith
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    • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
      Originally Posted by surfnowworklater View Post

      is it a business or not a business...who cares! Are you making money? Yes? OK stick to it and make some more.
      I started full-time IM in September last year (my choice based on things that were going on in my life).

      I'd found a method/technique/scheme to make money and dove in. With effort, I have been able to pay my bills and some months add to savings. I could have taken it further, but to do so I would have had to cross some lines into blackhat territory, and that's not something I'm willing to do.

      I knew there would come a day when this income stream would end, but due to my cashflow situation, I had to keep at it while it was still available. That day has come - this method no longer works.

      Fortunately, I have spent my spare time developing a real business, and it should be where it needs to be to pick up before my savings run out.

      So I'm proof that there is a HUGE difference between a method/technique/scheme and a business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by surfnowworklater View Post

      is it a business or not a business...who cares! Are you making money? Yes? OK stick to it and make some more.
      Almost everyone I've ever known with that attitude either had to go and get a job (when the things they were doing stopped being as effective) or had to step back and create a proper plan for a sustainable business model.

      Jumping from branch to branch grabbing money while you can may work for a while, but with IM at some point most things run their course and you better have a plan B when it happens.

      I always knew while I was able to make over $1000 a day with Adsense that I couldn't have it as the only thing I did since ultimately Google control it and can turn it off at any time - some people just chased the money and when it stopped - cashflow became a problem and they went back to having a job. I've seen the same thing with other models too.

      This is why I started this thread - to remind people that while you might think that all you want is to make money - without a plan you may find it stops, so at least make sure you're putting it to good use while it's coming so that you can create something resiliant with it to use as your backup plan.

      Andy
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        Almost everyone I've ever known with that attitude either had to go and get a job (when the things they were doing stopped being as effective) or had to step back and create a proper plan for a sustainable business model.

        Jumping from branch to branch grabbing money while you can may work for a while, but with IM at some point most things run their course and you better have a plan B when it happens.

        I always knew while I was able to make over $1000 a day with Adsense that I couldn't have it as the only thing I did since ultimately Google control it and can turn it off at any time - some people just chased the money and when it stopped - cashflow became a problem and they went back to having a job. I've seen the same thing with other models too.

        This is why I started this thread - to remind people that while you might think that all you want is to make money - without a plan you may find it stops, so at least make sure you're putting it to good use while it's coming so that you can create something resiliant with it to use as your backup plan.

        Andy

        Andy does make a good point here, I have to admit. I have personal
        friends who did the MFA sites thing and lost their income overnight
        when Google put the kabash on the MFA sites.

        It was ugly and it hurt a lot of people.

        That's why ironically, while Andy might think that my business model is
        a bit fashimult, it is diverse. If one thing goes south on me, I have 19
        other things to fall back on and I'm always creating more sources of income
        each day.

        Yes, it's a bit of a hodgepodge, but it's been working for 5 years so I'm
        not going to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.

        If 20 things dry up on me overnight, then I have a serious problem.

        Until that time comes...I'm not going to worry about it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Andy does make a good point here, I have to admit. I have personal
          friends who did the MFA sites thing and lost their income overnight
          when Google put the kabash on the MFA sites.

          It was ugly and it hurt a lot of people.

          That's why ironically, while Andy might think that my business model is
          a bit fashimult, it is diverse. If one thing goes south on me, I have 19
          other things to fall back on and I'm always creating more sources of income
          each day.

          Yes, it's a bit of a hodgepodge, but it's been working for 5 years so I'm
          not going to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.

          If 20 things dry up on me overnight, then I have a serious problem.

          Until that time comes...I'm not going to worry about it.

          That's the beauty of the Internet - there are so many ways to do things and we can all pick methods that suit our goals and preferences.

          I would never judge someone for how they live their life - I'm just trying to get people to think about what they're doing so that I don't have to see other people running into the same problems as many people already have done.

          I would never tell anyone to make money the way I do - most people wouldn't want to, but then I don't want to spend my time writing articles all day either, so it's all good

          I quite often sit around for hours reading books and thinking "I should probably be doing some work on my IM business now" - and then carry on reading and order another coffee or go for a swim.

          My laziness may come back to bite me some day but I'm more into enjoying the moment and the future is a side effect of doing good things in the present - so I'm also saying these things because I need to remind myself too.

          Andy
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

        Almost everyone I've ever known with that attitude either had to go and get a job (when the things they were doing stopped being as effective) or had to step back and create a proper plan for a sustainable business model.

        Jumping from branch to branch grabbing money while you can may work for a while, but with IM at some point most things run their course and you better have a plan B when it happens.

        I always knew while I was able to make over $1000 a day with Adsense that I couldn't have it as the only thing I did since ultimately Google control it and can turn it off at any time - some people just chased the money and when it stopped - cashflow became a problem and they went back to having a job. I've seen the same thing with other models too.

        This is why I started this thread - to remind people that while you might think that all you want is to make money - without a plan you may find it stops, so at least make sure you're putting it to good use while it's coming so that you can create something resiliant with it to use as your backup plan.

        Andy
        Hey Andy,

        And having a plan doesn't ensure a business will make money, or remain in business. There's plenty of businesses that have gone out of business, or never even really got started.

        Also, I believe taking advantage of trends, even if they are short lived, is a business model.

        Sure, it may be shortlived, but that just means the owners of these types of businesses need to be aware it may end at any time.
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Hey Andy,

          And having a plan doesn't ensure a business will make money, or remain in business. There's plenty of businesses that have gone out of business, or never even really got started.

          Also, I believe taking advantage of trends, even if they are short lived, is a business model.

          Sure, it may be shortlived, but that just means the owners of these types of businesses need to be aware it may end at any time.
          Absolutely!

          I know a few MBAs who created great business plans - but were so disassociated from the actual business (i.e they ran the numbers and decided it made sense but had no interest in the actual niche the business was in) that they were almost destined to fail.

          Like I said, you can make money in many ways, the issue I'm trying to root out of all of this is that you need to have a strategic view of the context in which you're taking your actions.

          If you're clear that your business is to take advantage of trends and you're sure that you can multitask well enough to get the next one started before the previous one has become less effective, you can certainly build a large foundation on which even when everything is less effective - you have so much coverage that you're not put in a difficult position.

          It's more about your vision and ability to sustain your income (i.e putting control of it back into your hands rather than relying on a one search engine or article service which could disappear tomorrow), and understanding what using the model you're working means as far as growing your revenue, securing your revenue and ending up in a place which was where you wanted to be,

          Andy
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi,

            ExRat thanks everyone for the great posts (rather than individually adding them to each poster's post.)

            Sidenote - a few hours ago I watched a video where a highly respected IMer was explaining how every single one of his businesses contains a continuity element ('you must have this or you're dead') and how they all lead towards high-ticket coaching.

            Not trying to sound dense, or like I don't get the point, but I can see why people get confused when they try to absorb ideas from others and why they talk of conflicting information - if someone arrived from Mars and was introduced to IM for the first time and listened to a cross section of IM gurus, they would quickly be wondering whether if their business plan didn't always lead to 'high-ticket coaching' then was it really a real business plan in the first place?

            What if they have no desire to step into the realm of high-ticket coaching because in general it is 'upper-class scamming with caviar on the side'? What if they could only stomach scamming if they didn't have to actually show their face?

            It's as if someone who had a product in mind and simply wanted to sell it/build a list/sell more at some point, reads these 'you must do this' strategies, should cancel all of their simple plans because they didn't realise that the ONLY way to do things is to create a funnel, with multiple OTOs, upsells, cross-sells, down-sells and inside-out-sells.

            And just to make the student feel like even more of a dunce, they tell them that this flow-chart that appears to just have arrows going from every single box to every other single box (with the emphasis on sucking more money out of the funnel-victim at each turn) is 'really simple.' On paper, perhaps it is. On a server, perhaps not so easy.

            The guy from Mars walks away pondering that to become an IM guru it's imperative that you have the ability to complicate simple things in order to make yourself look like an expert and therefore charge more for your strategies - the same system that has been used successfully by lawyers, doctors and beaurocrats - bullshit baffles brains.

            Please excuse the cynical tone, I've just been tidying up my inbox.
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            • Profile picture of the author Chris Monty
              I see that there is a lot to read here so I will keep this brief.

              I was "monkeying around" until recently...very recently. Now, however, I am focused like a laser on getting my business going, and it's working.

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  • Profile picture of the author Hugh
    I have owed and operated an offline business quite successfully for
    over 20 years. When I found this forum a looong time ago, I started
    to dabble with various ideas. Time and time again, my offline business
    forced me to neglect my online efforts. At this point, I guess it's safe to
    say my online tinkering is just a hobby. But I can see a day in the
    future where I sell my offline business and just "Play" with IM.

    Hugh
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  • Profile picture of the author Bishop81
    I've been working on building my business for a while now, but my foundation has not yet been based on anything reliable yet. I don't have extra money to throw at my business from my full time job (well, I'm just not allowed to ), so all of my money that I spend on the business has to come from the business.

    Therefore, my "business" so far has been freelancing, website flips, and that's about it. Now, though, I've recently focused on building up one site as a foundation to my business and just focusing more in general. I still have to freelance to have money to invest back into myself, but after all this time I'm actually realizing how I need to do this and do it right.

    So until now, my extra stuff has been to fund my business, which is in reality starting now. My goal is to do this full-time. I'll probably never stop freelancing, just because I love doing it. My goal is to quit my job, and freelance only when I want to.
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