Ask me anything about developing/marketing/selling software

60 replies
I've recently had a bunch of PM chats and Skype conversations with people looking for advice about getting into/progressing in the software business. It's a shame that the conversations weren't shared with a wider audience since a lot of good stuff came up. So I thought, why not run a thread where people can ask me stuff in a more open environment.

I don't claim to know everything on the subject but I do have an extensive background in software development and management thereof. I have experience of everything from information forensics through to desktop and web based applications. I've worked on the front line doing development as well as a ton of engineering/project management and operational stuff after that.

Please stay away from questions like, "How do I cloak links in PHP" or "What's wrong with this code?" We have a whole forum for that. Instead try to focus on bigger picture topics such as the differences between desktop and web based software, enforcing copyright, open source licensing etc.

So have at it people ...
#software
  • Profile picture of the author Wide
    That is kind of you, this is going to be sweet

    Biggest issue for me is getting ideas for new software programs.

    Normally I go to download.com and see what people are interrested in, however - almost all kind of software have free alternatives. Do you need to make everything better and smarter to charge for it?

    Guess you can just find a popular application on download.com, make a similar program and sell it on Adwords?
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by Wide View Post

      That is kind of you, this is going to be sweet

      Biggest issue for me is getting ideas for new software programs.

      Normally I go to download.com and see what people are interrested in, however - almost all kind of software have free alternatives. Do you need to make everything better and smarter to charge for it?

      Guess you can just find a popular application on download.com, make a similar program and sell it on Adwords?
      That strategy can work because not everyone looking for a solution to a problem knows enough to seek out free alternatives. But I would advise against it. Starting out by looking for apps that already have free options isn't a great way to get started.

      Instead consider marketing 101, "people pay for solutions to problems". They don't care if that solution is software, hardware, a book or a pigeon with a flamethrower. They care that your product makes pain go away. So instead of looking at download.com for existing solutions get out into the world and find people with problems. Solve them and charge them for the value you've added.
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    • Profile picture of the author ButterflyGarden
      Originally Posted by Wide View Post

      That is kind of you, this is going to be sweet

      Biggest issue for me is getting ideas for new software programs.
      My problem is just the opposite! Too many ideas and not enough time to develop them all.

      Incidentally Andy Fletcher you may be interested in the Software Industry Conference SIC - Software Industry Conference for ISVs and MicroISVs its a great value for the money. It designed specifically for software developers, software marketers, ISVs, MicroISVs and internet marketers. This year its scheduled for Dallas Texas July 15-17th, I'm hoping to go.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
        Originally Posted by ButterflyGarden View Post

        My problem is just the opposite! Too many ideas and not enough time to develop them all.
        I had this problem for a long time too. Now I keep an ideas book by me at all times. If something comes to me I'm allowed 10 minutes and one page to note down everything I can think of for it. Then I close it and get back to business.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          Hey Andy,

          Hope all is well!

          The main reason I've stayed away from software product creation is support. As a non-programmer I would have to hire someone to develop the software then I guess I would need to have them on contract for support.

          How much time do you spend handling support issues? And how would you recommend a non-programmer as myself to setup support for the software.

          What are your thoughts of Odesk for hiring developers?
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          • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
            Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

            Hey Andy,

            Hope all is well!

            The main reason I've stayed away from software product creation is support. As a non-programmer I would have to hire someone to develop the software then I guess I would need to have them on contract for support.

            How much time do you spend handling support issues? And how would you recommend a non-programmer as myself to setup support for the software.

            What are your thoughts of Odesk for hiring developers?
            Damn good question!

            There are two ways to model support for a software company. You can see it as an expense or you can see it as an investment.

            Companies that see support as an expense outsource it to a cheap country and give them cheat sheets to follow that rarely help the end customer (we've all been there on those phone calls, I don't think I need to elaborate).

            Companies that see it as an investment realise that customers who have support issues are basically doing your job of figuring out what is wrong with your software for you. When that "annoying" guy complains that your software doesn't do X, what he is actually saying is, "there is a demand for feature X, you'd get more customers if you implemented it".

            Before I go through my favoured support model let me talk for a moment about setting a baseline.

            You will have massive time sink clients who demand tons of help and support for even the smallest fee. Either get them on to a paid for support plan where they are paying for the time they eat or refund them and tell them you no longer wish to do business with them. 80/20 rule in effect. 20% of your customers will generate 80% of your support issues. In many cases I've found it's not so much 80/20 as one client generating all the hassle. Fire them!

            Now let's deal with one fact about software development that you can't ignore ... no matter how much everyone tries.

            You have to test and you have to support.

            Fact two. If you make your developers do more than the tiniest amount of either of those they will leave and go to work for Google.

            So build these functions in from the very beginning. Even for the smallest software projects (unless you are going to do *everything* yourself) hire someone who is going to take on the role of spec writer/reviewer, tester and support.

            Before any code gets written you need a rough spec. We all know that the spec will get changed a hundred times but you have to start with a rough plan or your developers will have nothing to work off. Instead of writing this yourself, get your assistant to hear your big ideas and write it up. This way you can get on with thinking big thoughts and they get to know what the software is supposed to do.

            As development begins you can start to split your assistants time between spec writing and testing. Since you have stopped adding features (you have stopped adding features right?) there is less to specify and more to test. The bonus here is that your tester knows what the software is supposed to do because they wrote the spec.

            Once you start to release software into the wild your assistant can transition again. This time splitting their time between testing and support. Because now they not only know what the software is supposed to do but how it does it. This makes them the perfect person to assist customers that need help and feedback the real issues to the developer involved.

            Now, depending on the size of your project you can scale up the team responsible for this to whatever size necessary. This model will work for projects requiring up to about half a dozen developers, 2-3 assistants with appropriate project/program/product management. After that you're in different territory that I won't even begin to address here.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post


              You will have massive time sink clients who demand tons of help and support for even the smallest fee. Either get them on to a paid for support plan where they are paying for the time they eat or refund them and tell them you no longer wish to do business with them. 80/20 rule in effect. 20% of your customers will generate 80% of your support issues. In many cases I've found it's not so much 80/20 as one client generating all the hassle. Fire them!
              Boy, aint that the truth brutha.

              You also get to the point where you can tell who will eat up your time even before they purchase. I normally talk them out of purchasing.
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    • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
      Originally Posted by Wide View Post

      That is kind of you, this is going to be sweet

      Biggest issue for me is getting ideas for new software programs.
      Study a line of business and see what functions can be automated. For example, receiving digital payments can lead to automating your accounting and reporting.

      All business software should begin with the method. Take a look at the business function (job), streamline it and automate it where possible. How this is done is using the original business forms and rules the business follows (if this then that).

      Millions of businesses need these. For instance, my rental businesses would have did better with an automated way landlords could let their tenant's create their own receipts.

      Look for business problems in forums and see if automation can help them.
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      I have no agenda but to help those in the same situation. This I feel will pay the bills.
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  • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
    Hey andy

    To go way back to basics

    What would your next step be if you

    1. have a product that is proven to sell AND solve problems, plus you have great customer feedback, in my case on the danish market

    2. The product have sold a bit on your very bad international website

    3. you know the product is solid, and that it can sell.

    4. a new better website is about a month away from launching
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    • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
      Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

      Hey andy

      To go way back to basics

      What would your next step be if you

      1. have a product that is proven to sell AND solve problems, plus you have great customer feedback, in my case on the danish market

      2. The product have sold a bit on your very bad international website

      3. you know the product is solid, and that it can sell.

      4. a new better website is about a month away from launching
      5. if you don't already have a list filled with satisfied customers
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      • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
        Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

        5. if you don't already have a list filled with satisfied customers
        Is this one hypothetical? It seems to contradict your other points.
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        • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
          Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

          Is this one hypothetical? It seems to contradict your other points.
          Well yes and no

          My list is all danish customers with no apparent link to international businesses.
          What I plan on doing is moving onto the international market, and as such my list mus be worth more or less nothing (Yes perhaps there is a few out there with international ties, but I don't think this is the way to go.)
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          • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
            Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

            Well yes and no

            My list is all danish customers with no apparent link to international businesses.
            What I plan on doing is moving onto the international market, and as such my list mus be worth more or less nothing (Yes perhaps there is a few out there with international ties, but I don't think this is the way to go.)
            Ah, I see.

            If you've got such a well established base of Danish customers personally I'd be looking to sell other stuff to them rather than trying to go international with your existing product but if you're after going down that route.

            Step one really needs to be to establish what your target market is after in the other countries. Start by contacting companies that sell complimentary products and see what advice you can get. You may even get easy access to their customer lists.

            Let me expand on that with a quick analogy. Let's say you were trying to sell shoe polish. It's not good to call up the companies that make and sell shoe polish since you're a direct competitor. Instead you want to call up shoe stores.
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            • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
              Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

              Ah, I see.

              If you've got such a well established base of Danish customers personally I'd be looking to sell other stuff to them rather than trying to go international with your existing product but if you're after going down that route.

              Step one really needs to be to establish what your target market is after in the other countries. Start by contacting companies that sell complimentary products and see what advice you can get. You may even get easy access to their customer lists.

              Let me expand on that with a quick analogy. Let's say you were trying to sell shoe polish. It's not good to call up the companies that make and sell shoe polish since you're a direct competitor. Instead you want to call up shoe stores.
              The main problem with my danish customer base is that until now I have not really been aware of aftersales possibilities, and as such I have not had much communication with my list except to inform them of new updates on the software etc.

              When this is said however I do have a new feature ready for my danish customers that I will try to sell to my list (when you want to sell to the danish government you have to supply them with the invoice in an electronic xml format, I have created a feature that does this totally automatic, I plan on marketing this for a one time fee followed by a small per-invoice fee)
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              • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                The main problem with my danish customer base is that until now I have not really been aware of aftersales possibilities, and as such I have not had much communication with my list except to inform them of new updates on the software etc.

                When this is said however I do have a new feature ready for my danish customers that I will try to sell to my list (when you want to sell to the danish government you have to supply them with the invoice in an electronic xml format, I have created a feature that does this totally automatic, I plan on marketing this for a one time fee followed by a small per-invoice fee)
                Perfect. That's far more like the kind of business I prefer than taking a product to an international market.
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                • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
                  Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

                  Perfect. That's far more like the kind of business I prefer than taking a product to an international market.
                  Hehe I would imagine

                  Only trouble is volume, the product I sell does not cost very much (under$100) and the recurring fee from 500-1000 customers would not be super large either. what I need is more volume of sales.

                  This is why I am looking towards the international market, here we have the possibility for large volume (1000 customers over two years on a <$100 product just does not cut it for me. Now if I could sell 500 copies a month that would be another story, this however is not possible in Denmark (6 million residents) but worldwide is another matter.
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                  • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
                    Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                    Hehe I would imagine

                    Only trouble is volume, the product I sell does not cost very much (under$100) and the recurring fee from 500-1000 customers would not be super large either. what I need is more volume of sales.

                    This is why I am looking towards the international market, here we have the possibility for large volume (1000 customers over two years on a <$100 product just does not cut it for me. Now if I could sell 500 copies a month that would be another story, this however is not possible in Denmark (6 million residents) but worldwide is another matter.
                    And like I said before, I know the product can sell, and I know it can sell on the international market, my task now is to get the volume skyrocketing

                    First task is to make the website better, this I am already working on

                    Thread on my new website

                    Now I need to learn about steps two and three
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                    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                      Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                      Hehe I would imagine

                      Only trouble is volume, the product I sell does not cost very much (under$100) and the recurring fee from 500-1000 customers would not be super large either. what I need is more volume of sales.

                      This is why I am looking towards the international market, here we have the possibility for large volume (1000 customers over two years on a <$100 product just does not cut it for me. Now if I could sell 500 copies a month that would be another story, this however is not possible in Denmark (6 million residents) but worldwide is another matter.
                      Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                      And like I said before, I know the product can sell, and I know it can sell on the international market, my task now is to get the volume skyrocketing

                      First task is to make the website better, this I am already working on

                      Thread on my new website

                      Now I need to learn about steps two and three
                      Just don't lose sight of the profitability of your existing customers. You're right, you won't make your millions selling the product you have just in Denmark but it's almost always more profitable to selling more things to the same people than the same thing to more people.
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                      • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
                        Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

                        Just don't lose sight of the profitability of your existing customers. You're right, you won't make your millions selling the product you have just in Denmark but it's almost always more profitable to selling more things to the same people than the same thing to more people.
                        How right you are, and I do intend on making at least four figures this year on the existing customers here in Denmark. But my main focus right now is to get the sales volume up. but also through a nice newsletter to keep the existing customers, and hopefully be able to market to this new list of new great customers
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                        • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                          Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                          How right you are, and I do intend on making at least four figures this year on the existing customers here in Denmark. But my main focus right now is to get the sales volume up. but also through a nice newsletter to keep the existing customers, and hopefully be able to market to this new list of new great customers
                          Good luck and keep me updated on how you're getting on.
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                          • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
                            Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

                            Good luck and keep me updated on how you're getting on.
                            Will do

                            right now im looking forward to recieving a bunch of copy from the copywriter over the next couple of days, than I can get to work on the website

                            One question.
                            I plan on creating a series of newsletters for my future international list, and then using mailchimp to deliver them.

                            How would you suggest I plan these newsletters?
                            one every week or would that be to much

                            should I start by giving a bunch of great information in the first 3-4 newsletters before I start making them great offers, or should I start marketing to them only after a long period with many newsletters?
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                            • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                              Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                              Will do

                              right now im looking forward to recieving a bunch of copy from the copywriter over the next couple of days, than I can get to work on the website

                              One question.
                              I plan on creating a series of newsletters for my future international list, and then using mailchimp to deliver them.

                              How would you suggest I plan these newsletters?
                              one every week or would that be to much

                              should I start by giving a bunch of great information in the first 3-4 newsletters before I start making them great offers, or should I start marketing to them only after a long period with many newsletters?
                              You're not going to like this one

                              Test. Test. Test.

                              Get in the habit as early as possible of testing stuff with different segments of your list. Start half of them on weekly newsletters and the other half on monthly. Or give half tons of content and few offers and the other half tons of offers and little content.

                              You absolutely *have* to establish your own baseline for your industry and customer list. There is no "one size fits all" for this stuff.

                              Told you you wouldn't like it
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                              • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
                                Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

                                You're not going to like this one

                                Test. Test. Test.

                                Get in the habit as early as possible of testing stuff with different segments of your list. Start half of them on weekly newsletters and the other half on monthly. Or give half tons of content and few offers and the other half tons of offers and little content.

                                You absolutely *have* to establish your own baseline for your industry and customer list. There is no "one size fits all" for this stuff.

                                Told you you wouldn't like it

                                Hehe you are right I don't like it one bit

                                You are probably right, I'll just have to think this through and then talk it over with my copywriter. perhaps have a baseline setup, and then try and change a few things around every few days

                                For a baseline I'm thinking about making 8 weekly newsletters, all with around 200 words content, and then throw in a nice offer or two in the final 4 newsletters, than after a few months I'll be able to change a bit around (or earlier if I get a ton of unsuscribers) how does that sound?
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                                • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                                  Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                                  Hehe you are right I don't like it one bit

                                  You are probably right, I'll just have to think this through and then talk it over with my copywriter. perhaps have a baseline setup, and then try and change a few things around every few days

                                  For a baseline I'm thinking about making 8 weekly newsletters, all with around 200 words content, and then throw in a nice offer or two in the final 4 newsletters, than after a few months I'll be able to change a bit around (or earlier if I get a ton of unsuscribers) how does that sound?
                                  You'll get far more information if you split your list in two and change one variable at a time. In your case I'd start by sending one half the weekly newsletter and the other half the monthly.

                                  Then if you're getting good feedback from the weekly ones you can increase the rate for everyone. If you've got a lot of complaints/unsubs you can decrease the rate for everyone.

                                  Also, don't fuss too much about delivering tons of content. Focus on emailing them when you have something to say, even if that's just "buy this, it's awesome". My main SEO list pretty much only ever here's from me when I have something to sell them (either of mine or someone else's) but I get amazing conversions on it because they know what to expect. They know I only promo the highest quality stuff so they stay subscribed because it saves them hunting down this stuff for themselves.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
                                    Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

                                    You'll get far more information if you split your list in two and change one variable at a time. In your case I'd start by sending one half the weekly newsletter and the other half the monthly.

                                    Then if you're getting good feedback from the weekly ones you can increase the rate for everyone. If you've got a lot of complaints/unsubs you can decrease the rate for everyone.

                                    Also, don't fuss too much about delivering tons of content. Focus on emailing them when you have something to say, even if that's just "buy this, it's awesome". My main SEO list pretty much only ever here's from me when I have something to sell them (either of mine or someone else's) but I get amazing conversions on it because they know what to expect. They know I only promo the highest quality stuff so they stay subscribed because it saves them hunting down this stuff for themselves.
                                    Is it enough to have sold them some great software once and then start mailing them offers on other stuff right away, shouldn't you deliver some great content at the first few mails to begin with before starting to offer them stuff?

                                    I actually figured Id start out by reminding them once a week about a great feature in the software, and how it would solve their problem, (Perhaps devide my list into people who have bought the cheap version and then explaining a feature that is in the full version, and ending it with an offer on an upgrade)
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                                      Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                                      Is it enough to have sold them some great software once and then start mailing them offers on other stuff right away, shouldn't you deliver some great content at the first few mails to begin with before starting to offer them stuff?

                                      I actually figured Id start out by reminding them once a week about a great feature in the software, and how it would solve their problem, (Perhaps devide my list into people who have bought the cheap version and then explaining a feature that is in the full version, and ending it with an offer on an upgrade)
                                      The first thing I'd do is find out what problems they are having and start solving them. That makes far better email content than stuff you think they might want to hear about.

                                      Put yourself in their position. If you were the customer would you rather get an email detailing a feature you may already know about or may not care about or an email saying,

                                      "Hi, we feel our support has been lacking up until now and don't like to think of our customers suffering in silence. If you've got any problems with the software at all, hit the reply button and let us know so we can get on with our job of solving them."
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          • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
            Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

            Well yes and no

            My list is all danish customers with no apparent link to international businesses.
            What I plan on doing is moving onto the international market, and as such my list mus be worth more or less nothing (Yes perhaps there is a few out there with international ties, but I don't think this is the way to go.)
            Another thought. Don't forget you don't have to sell the software direct. You could consider selling rights to it in other countries. Perhaps offer a white label version that people with existing marketing channels can quickly leverage to make money.
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            • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
              Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

              Another thought. Don't forget you don't have to sell the software direct. You could consider selling rights to it in other countries. Perhaps offer a white label version that people with existing marketing channels can quickly leverage to make money.

              Wouldn't I need to show a nice sales record (international market not danish market) before i can interest other people with my product?
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              • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
                Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

                Wouldn't I need to show a nice sales record (international market not danish market) before i can interest other people with my product?
                As long as your product meets these three criteria you'll be fine -

                - Solves a problem the resellers' customers have
                - Isn't already solved by something they already sell
                - Has sufficient margin left for them to profit

                That makes it a no brainer for them to take on your product.

                Since I seem to have an analogy thing going on in this thread let's do one here as well ...

                My dentist has recently started selling their own brand of vitamin tablets that help keep your teeth strong. It's possible that they went out did the R&D necessary to find the vitamins that help. Got all the certification required to sell a pill of this form. Found a factory that fabricates the designs. A distribution company to supply them etc.

                More likely someone walked in and said "here is a white label vitamin that you can start selling tomorrow as your own product, here's 100 units you can sell for free and after that it'll be 5 quid a box."
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

      Hey andy

      To go way back to basics

      What would your next step be if you

      1. have a product that is proven to sell AND solve problems, plus you have great customer feedback, in my case on the danish market

      2. The product have sold a bit on your very bad international website

      3. you know the product is solid, and that it can sell.

      4. a new better website is about a month away from launching
      Hehe. I've pretty much just answered this one in the other thread as you were posting

      If you've already got a well established customer base then your absolute best source for expanding it is your customers themselves (assuming they like your product )

      Internet Marketing affiliates expect huge commissions for their work but people in offline businesses will give you referrals for 25 bucks worth of Amazon vouchers. Try sending all your customers a message (email or phone call) saying, "we're growing and we'd like your help". Offer them an voucher and the people they refer an discount off the software for every referral they make. You'll be amazed at how many referrals you'll get this way.

      Andy
      And to expand a bit.

      If you've got a solid customer base as it sounds like you've already got. There's usually more money in finding value added services for them than in expanding out to find new customers that you don't have a link to (ie using Adwords as opposed to customer referral).

      Have you tried ringing a subset of your customer base to find out what other problems they have and developing an add-on module that solves it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Wide
    Question,

    In another topic you say:

    Affiliates want products that solve a problem and convert well. Make that your number one priority and then fill in the blanks when affiliates say, "it'd be great if you had X". Affiliates love a responsive vendor and it'll stop you getting bogged down worrying about a load of little things that people may never even want/need.
    The most successful software projects I've worked on are ones that found customers and solved their problems rather than guessing at what people wanted and working on it to get it "right".

    Release early, release often
    Let me get this right, you find a problem and create a very basic program for that problem, just to get it out. You then update the program with additional features they want afterwards.

    Your not afraid to loose sales because you didnt use time to add some of the features found in related/competive products/programs?
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by Wide View Post

      Question,

      In another topic you say:





      Let me get this right, you find a problem and create a very basic program for that problem, just to get it out. You then update the program with additional features they want afterwards.

      Your not afraid to loose sales because you didnt use time to add some of the features found in related products/programs?
      Basic is the wrong word. Niche is the correct word. Let me try to illustrate with an example.

      Let's say you wanted to get into the Word Processor market (hint, don't).

      Option one is to spend the next 5 years implementing everything MS Word can do then realising they're still five years ahead of you. Never release and the company dies before you ever ship v1.0.

      Option two is to target a very specific niche. Let's say the word processing needs of biological chemists working in government departments. Throw away the 95% of the stuff Word can do that biological chemists in government departments don't use and implement the 10% of stuff that they need that Word doesn't do.

      Then you can grow your company in two directions. The first direction is to expand the base of people your product appeals to. Eg lose the focus on government departments and just target biological chemists. And deeper by selling addons that solve additional problems that your existing customers already have.
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      • Profile picture of the author Wide
        Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

        Basic is the wrong word. Niche is the correct word. Let me try to illustrate with an example.

        Let's say you wanted to get into the Word Processor market (hint, don't).

        Option one is to spend the next 5 years implementing everything MS Word can do then realising they're still five years ahead of you. Never release and the company dies before you ever ship v1.0.

        Option two is to target a very specific niche. Let's say the word processing needs of biological chemists working in government departments. Throw away the 95% of the stuff Word can do that biological chemists in government departments don't use and implement the 10% of stuff that they need that Word doesn't do.

        Then you can grow your company in two directions. The first direction is to expand the base of people your product appeals to. Eg lose the focus on government departments and just target biological chemists. And deeper by selling addons that solve additional problems that your existing customers already have.
        That made me thinking
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  • Profile picture of the author mannawealth
    Thank you for the offer. It's good to know that people are willing to help for free.
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  • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
    Andy, I'm most interested in mobile software apps. I have no idea where to find decent developers in the Philippines that do not have too large a salary requirement.

    The other problem is WHAT do they develop to meet the largest audience of devices. In other words, do they only make an iphone app, sms controlled app, etc.

    I have so many business plans that involve mobile software but do not have any experience in it or know where to locate decent workers that do. One project we had was estimated at 100K for development and the investors thought we were nuts! They thought we should develop one working function for a few grand first and prove the concept.
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    I have no agenda but to help those in the same situation. This I feel will pay the bills.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by RentItNow View Post

      Andy, I'm most interested in mobile software apps. I have no idea where to find decent developers in the Philippines that do not have too large a salary requirement.

      The other problem is WHAT do they develop to meet the largest audience of devices. In other words, do they only make an iphone app, sms controlled app, etc.

      I have so many business plans that involve mobile software but do not have any experience in it or know where to locate decent workers that do. One project we had was estimated at 100K for development and the investors thought we were nuts! They thought we should develop one working function for a few grand first and prove the concept.
      You're in luck today. I was Technical Operations Manager at a mobile development house for 2 years so I have some decent experience in this area.

      The first thing you need to realise is that outsourcing to low cost countries only works when you have standard requirements. If you have a bog standard business process and you want to slap a web interface on it then outsourcing to these countries works incredibly well.

      If you want to do cutting edge development then you need to hire in your own country for a number of reasons.

      The first, and easier hurdle to overcome is that so many outsource agencies in low cost countries will sell you developer time from people that don't have the necessary skills to pull off the project. Many Indian firms I've worked with in the past have a day rate for "graduates" but what they don't tell you is that they have graduated with any degree, not necessarily something technical and receive the bare minimum training.

      If you have the right contacts or the time to fly out there this problem isn't hard to over come. It's not too hard to find agencies that have sufficiently experienced staff. I'm certainly not trying to claim that the good Phillipine/Indian dev firms are some how stupider than American/UK ones.

      Unfortunately you've then got another problem and this is far harder to solve. And that's communication. Language barriers tend not to be an issue. Everyone involved in software speaks English well enough for this to be a bit of a non-issue. However the time gap involved can be an incredible drain.

      Since I seem to be picking on Indian/Phillipine firms in this thread I'm going to pick on an American one for my example. When I worked for a UK company providing social network software to universities, we white labelled an American company's solution. Unfortunately that involved a 6 hour time lag so they were only just starting work as we finished our day. This meant a great many late nights for us and often we had to leave questions and wait until the next day to get answers. Often to get replies such as, "I don't understand question 2, please clarify". Needless to say that project was stillborn.

      OK. This post is becoming epic. I'm going to get some caffeine then I'll come back and come back to answer the other parts about finding a mobile agency and targeting handsets.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by RentItNow View Post

      Andy, I'm most interested in mobile software apps. I have no idea where to find decent developers in the Philippines that do not have too large a salary requirement.

      The other problem is WHAT do they develop to meet the largest audience of devices. In other words, do they only make an iphone app, sms controlled app, etc.

      I have so many business plans that involve mobile software but do not have any experience in it or know where to locate decent workers that do. One project we had was estimated at 100K for development and the investors thought we were nuts! They thought we should develop one working function for a few grand first and prove the concept.
      Round Two .... FIGHT.

      Auditioning development agencies (or any professional service firm for that matter) is pretty much a solved problem if you do it right. Since there's tons of readily available material on the subject I'll cover the basics and then answer specific questions if you have any.

      - Know what you want - A good agency will be able to help you figure out what you really need but you have to at least know what problem you want to start with.
      - Start small - Don't give the first agency that comes along a $100,000 contract. Find something they can do for a small part of the fee to test them out. But *NEVER* try to get the first part done cheap "as a test". The good agencies will laugh in your face and the bad ones will take the job. Neither is a good outcome.
      - Audition many and fire fast - The same as hiring someone to work for you don't just audition one company and see if they fit the bill. Talk to 10 and give a small starting assignment to 5.

      Finally, here's one that more specific to the software industry.

      - Beware any company that has a (capital M) Methodology and tries to sell it to you. "Industry best practice" is a term you want associated with your accounts not your software. If it's something that can be product on an assembly line then someone is already selling a boxed software version of it. If it's not you want creative, innovative developers, not ones that know how to tick all the ISO9001 standard boxes.

      Now let's talk a bit about targeting handsets since this is a big topic in the mobile space at the moment.

      Given the vast array of platforms and standard involved at the moment it is cost prohibitive to make something work across all of them so your first job is to understand the target market of your application then select a platform (then handset range) based on that. Don't trust any mobile dev firm that promises to make it work on every handset. They're either lying or going to send you an astronomical bill.

      As a starter for 10 here's the most common market/platform match ups -

      - Anything media - iPhone
      - Anything executive - Blackberry
      - Anything chez geek - Android
      - Anything you want to work on a grab bag of handsets with no real focus or hope for success - J2ME
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  • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
    Andy, that is some detailed answer! Thank you soooo much!

    One of my advantages is that I was a damn good high-paid lead analyst at a fortune 500 company. I hooked up with some good developers and business people and we were ready to start full-time development on one mobile app in particular. The lead developer was actually from the Philippines so communication would have been relatively easy (he would have lead the development team and I would communicate specs to him only).

    However, the largest problem was in the investing end. We had investors but of course the numbers were wrong for them. So we decided to back burner it. But I have been re sparked on it as the more I think about it, we may be able to build a sub function that is an entire product to itself.

    However, we are at the same point. People don't work for free. A lot of the money I am making from IM is going into it but the pace is snail.

    Sometimes I think it may have been for the best that it didnt work out a few years ago because of the handset compatibility issues you mentioned.

    I mostly needed a direction to point the guns so to speak.

    We all used to work on multi-million dollar budget projects together and it is VERY hard to go on a small budget.

    Anyway thank you so much for all the details on the mobile scene.
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    I have no agenda but to help those in the same situation. This I feel will pay the bills.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by RentItNow View Post

      Andy, that is some detailed answer! Thank you soooo much!

      One of my advantages is that I was a damn good high-paid lead analyst at a fortune 500 company. I hooked up with some good developers and business people and we were ready to start full-time development on one mobile app in particular. The lead developer was actually from the Philippines so communication would have been relatively easy (he would have lead the development team and I would communicate specs to him only).

      However, the largest problem was in the investing end. We had investors but of course the numbers were wrong for them. So we decided to back burner it. But I have been re sparked on it as the more I think about it, we may be able to build a sub function that is an entire product to itself.

      However, we are at the same point. People don't work for free. A lot of the money I am making from IM is going into it but the pace is snail.

      Sometimes I think it may have been for the best that it didnt work out a few years ago because of the handset compatibility issues you mentioned.

      I mostly needed a direction to point the guns so to speak.

      We all used to work on multi-million dollar budget projects together and it is VERY hard to go on a small budget.

      Anyway thank you so much for all the details on the mobile scene.
      I don't have masses of experience of the investment process but it's generally been the case that investors want to see something tangible. First round angel investors willing to part with their money for nothing more than an idea are few and far between.

      However, if you can bootstrap the organisation to the point that you've got the basics of a development process in place and have a working prototype the number of interested parties will go up by an order of magnitude.

      If you manage to bootstrap to the point that you're ramen profitable and can take or leave the VC then you'll be fighting them off with sticks.

      One common bootstrapping option is the consultancy method. Hit up all your contacts and generally get the word out that you have access to a great dev team and you're looking for work. Hire the team out for 50% of their hours (or whatever % you need to breakeven on the projects they do, commonly 66% by standard agency pricing structures) then sink the rest of the time into getting your product made.

      If you go down that route you'll generally need to do it with some scale and have several developers so you can have a dedicated consultancy team and product team or at least something like spending the first 3 weeks of the month consulting and the rest on product. Otherwise the team's time becomes too fragmented and then won't finish either project.

      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      Boy, aint that the truth brutha.

      You also get to the point where you can tell who will eat up your time even before they purchase. I normally talk them out of purchasing.
      Haha. This is so true. I remember working in an internship position during my university holidays. It was a smallish company with less than 50 staff so everyone knew what everyone was up to. One week the whole company was building up to this big pitch to a potential major new client. The MD and the CFO (or whatever his title was at the time) went and gave the pitch themselves. While they were out everyone else seemed to be at a standstill waiting to hear how it went.

      Just before the end of the day they got back and called an all hands meeting. The MD was beaming as he delivered the result.

      "We told them to f*** off"

      He then went on to explain that they were price obsessed and clearly going to require more support than would be profitable to give them. So instead of taking on this major client that would've done wonders for the short term bottom line of the company. He passed them up and secured the long term future of the business.

      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      Hello Andy,

      Quick question here: where do you find reliable and advanced PHP programmers? I've tried elance and scriptlance in order to outsource the script creation part of the business, and I spend more time chasing these guys around so they fix bugs and meet deadlines than actually getting the job done. And when I find a good one and he works for me on two or three projects (and I pay him religiously whatever he asks for, I never bargain), then they simply disappear on me without further notice!

      Any input on finding outsourced programmers will be highly appreciated. Thanks!
      Unfortunately (for answering this question) I am a reliable and advanced developer and as a result I know a great many reliable and advanced developers. In the same way as I'm sure you know a great many other people that are good at what you do. As a result I have a lot of experience of hiring out in the real world but not a lot of experience hiring people off freelance sites.

      Let's start with the root of the problem. The freelance sites themselves. They have basically created modern day coding sweat shops where cheapest price rules the day. This drives prices down to fantastic levels for buyers who can't believe what a bargain they are getting.

      After all, you say you pay whatever they ask for and never bargain. That says to me that the price is low enough that you don't feel you need to. Unfortunately, such prices just are sustainable for the developer involved. He might be able to live on that amount if he had a constant stream of work but these freelance guys never factor in finding the work, customer care etc.

      Your great value developer does your 2 week project and suddenly realises he has nothing left over to show for it and needs work now. He'll jump from low paid gig to low paid gig and take whatever work comes his way.

      So, what can you do about it?

      The absolute best way to ensure available development talent is to hire them full time. Yeah, suddenly not so cheap are they but strangely enough, that guy needs to eat when you don't hire him too

      Failing that, get your best guys on a monthly retainer. Maybe you can't afford/don't have the work for the guy full time (particularly if you have a multi-faceted project that requires 2-3 guys with different skill sets) but at least mark out X amount of guaranteed, work-or-not, paid time each month. And make sure it's at least a week.

      Also, make sure you hire the absolute best guy you can to help you recruit your people in the first place. There are a ridiculous number of "developers" out there just trying to win the lottery. They'll apply for every position that comes up and just hope the person hiring doesn't know enough to say no.

      One company I worked for had half a dozen Java contractors on £300-£400 a day when I started. Pretty much only one of them could really write code the rest had won the lottery. The guys in charge didn't know anything about software development so they assumed that anyone charging so much for their time must be good .... they were not.

      When I helped fix their hiring process I foolishly left it up to their recruitment agent to send over "the best people on the books". I have a pretty standard interview technique (in person). I'll spend a couple of minutes putting someone at their ease with questions like "how are you?", "hope london transport wasn't too bad for you" etc. Then offer them a ridiculously simple coding question to help them beat the nerves and find their feet.

      Only that day, NONE of "the best people on the books" could even answer question 1 despite all claiming 5-10 years senior development experience. And believer me, this wasn't some trick question. It was a question that anyone that had done any real development for a couple of months or the first semester of a uni course could answer.

      So to bring this ramble to a close.

      Find the best guy you can to help you hire people.
      Interview *lots* of people and be quick to say "no". It's far better to let a good one go than hire a good one because ...
      Put your good people on retainer or preferably hire them full time.

      Originally Posted by Wide View Post

      Andy, do you have your software on Download.com?

      If so, any suggestions how to make a software popular? You promote your software and tell your visitors to download it from download.com and that way get some activity to the program?
      Originally Posted by HenrikPoulsen View Post

      that is a good question

      plus how would you obtain a editors review on download.com
      Sorry, I've never used download.com.

      I'm a direct marketer at heart and all the software I've sold for myself has pretty much all been sold direct via JV mailings and compliment company deals.

      In my experience it's far more profitable to have a niche burger and take it to where that niche goes to eat than to setup shop next to McDonalds.

      (Yes I know my analogies are terrible this morning but I haven't had enough caffeine. Leave me alone )
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  • Hello Andy,

    Quick question here: where do you find reliable and advanced PHP programmers? I've tried elance and scriptlance in order to outsource the script creation part of the business, and I spend more time chasing these guys around so they fix bugs and meet deadlines than actually getting the job done. And when I find a good one and he works for me on two or three projects (and I pay him religiously whatever he asks for, I never bargain), then they simply disappear on me without further notice!

    Any input on finding outsourced programmers will be highly appreciated. Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    Ducking out for the evening now. I'll get through the new stuff in the morning.

    Keep the questions coming guys
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  • Profile picture of the author nyrsimon
    Andy - awesome thread here.

    Guys some great info!

    Simon
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  • Profile picture of the author Wide
    Andy, do you have your software on Download.com?

    If so, any suggestions how to make a software popular? You promote your software and tell your visitors to download it from download.com and that way get some activity to the program?
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
      Originally Posted by Wide View Post

      Andy, do you have your software on Download.com?

      If so, any suggestions how to make a software popular? You promote your software and tell your visitors to download it from download.com and that way get some activity to the program?
      that is a good question

      plus how would you obtain a editors review on download.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Andy, thanks for entertaining questions. I've got an unusual one, but first a bit of background...

    Years ago I had an idea for a software program. I found someone to program it for 50% of the profits. Things went great for several years. I made promoted the program and made the sales, he improved the program and handled the tech support that I couldn't, and we split the money. We made tens of thousands of dollars each.

    Then he disappeared. Don't know what happened to him. The program is old and needs updated in both features and OS compatibility. It doesn't sell anymore because the last version it was designed to work with was Windows 98. It will run on XP in compatibility mode, but that's a drawback, not a selling point. You can probably see the problem coming...

    I don't have the source code. I think it's written in Visual Basic. If I hired someone to update it, would they be able to decompile the program to get to the code to update it, or would they have to start from scratch? Would that be legal? What would be the best way to go about resurrecting this program?

    Thanks, Andy.
    Signature

    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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    • Profile picture of the author HenrikPoulsen
      Hi Dennis

      What kind of software are we talking about here? is it hugely complicated or very straight forward. does it rely heavily on databases?

      If the software is outdated (VB really isn't the best language) but relatively simple I would think it easier to just write the software again (This way it will be possible to update it all over)

      You are welcome to PM me with software details and I can get my programmer to give his impression on whether or not it would be favorable to just start from scratch.



      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Andy, thanks for entertaining questions. I've got an unusual one, but first a bit of background...

      Years ago I had an idea for a software program. I found someone to program it for 50% of the profits. Things went great for several years. I made promoted the program and made the sales, he improved the program and handled the tech support that I couldn't, and we split the money.

      Then he disappeared. Don't know what happened to him. The program is old and needs updated in both features and OS compatibility. You can probably see the problem coming...

      I don't have the source code. I think it's written in Visual Basic. If I hired someone to update it, would they be able to decompile the program to get to the code to update it, or would they have to start from scratch? Would that be legal? What would be the best way to go about resurrecting this program?

      Thanks, Andy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Andy, thanks for entertaining questions. I've got an unusual one, but first a bit of background...

      Years ago I had an idea for a software program. I found someone to program it for 50% of the profits. Things went great for several years. I made promoted the program and made the sales, he improved the program and handled the tech support that I couldn't, and we split the money. We made tens of thousands of dollars each.

      Then he disappeared. Don't know what happened to him. The program is old and needs updated in both features and OS compatibility. It doesn't sell anymore because the last version it was designed to work with was Windows 98. It will run on XP in compatibility mode, but that's a drawback, not a selling point. You can probably see the problem coming...

      I don't have the source code. I think it's written in Visual Basic. If I hired someone to update it, would they be able to decompile the program to get to the code to update it, or would they have to start from scratch? Would that be legal? What would be the best way to go about resurrecting this program?

      Thanks, Andy.
      Disclaimer: This post contains stuff that will sound like legal advice. It's not, I'm not a lawyer. Today I'm posing as a software developer giving legal advice

      First of all let me just highlight the underlying problem. I'm sure you don't need reminding of this but hopefully some other people will learn from the mistake.

      Always, always, always get the source code. If your developer tells you that you don't need it that's protectionism, fire him on the spot.

      Most of the time developers disappear for genuine reasons (it's referred to as "hit by a bus" syndrome in the trade). But regardless of why he's gone, when it happens you need to be able to replace him ASAP and you can't do that if the new guy has to start over.

      Now on to the specifics.

      You own the rights to the software so there should be no legal reason for you to get someone to decompile it for you.

      There are a number of moderate VB decompilers kicking around but I haven't used one in over a year (and that was for a quickie job anyway) so I'm loathe to make any specific recommendations. Even if you do manage to decompile chunks of it you're still looking at decent development effort required to get it into a maintainable project. You definitely won't be able to just click a button and have your guy get to work.

      If the last OS it worked on with Windows 98 you'd probably be looking at a rewrite job anyway but it's hard to say for sure without know what it is/what it does/etc.
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  • Thank you Andy for all the answers!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      Thank you Andy for all the answers!!!
      Hehe. I'm an arrogant software guy who just likes to think he has all the answers

      But you're welcome all the same. I read your sales funnel mindmap, that's good stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ruka
    Andy, wonderful thread, thank you!

    I have a question.

    I would like to sell iphone apps - got some exciting ideas ready for a future roll out.


    I bought a product on how to do this, but it didn't answer the questions I have.

    Main thing is -

    How can I ensure, as much as possible, that the developer I choose doesn't just take my idea and share it with others?

    I know I can get them to sign a non-disclosure agreement, and there is some room to stop them selling on the product they actually made for me.

    But whats to stop them teaming up with someone else, changing the idea a little and creating a new app?

    ... How do I find someone trustworthy? (& also who does not just double-outsource out to someone else)


    Support for iphone apps: I don't want to give support for the app. if I can help it (even outsourced)

    Is is realistic to set out a one-time free contract, where they deliver the finished product to me fully tested 100%, no faults & therefore no support required?

    (ie. I can just sell it the the apple store)


    many thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by chickenlittle View Post

      Andy, wonderful thread, thank you!

      I have a question.

      I would like to sell iphone apps - got some exciting ideas ready for a future roll out.


      I bought a product on how to do this, but it didn't answer the questions I have.

      Main thing is -

      How can I ensure, as much as possible, that the developer I choose doesn't just take my idea and share it with others?

      I know I can get them to sign a non-disclosure agreement, and there is some room to stop them selling on the product they actually made for me.

      But whats to stop them teaming up with someone else, changing the idea a little and creating a new app?

      ... How do I find someone trustworthy? (& also who does not just double-outsource out to someone else)


      Support for iphone apps: I don't want to give support for the app. if I can help it (even outsourced)

      Is is realistic to set out a one-time free contract, where they deliver the finished product to me fully tested 100%, no faults & therefore no support required?

      (ie. I can just sell it the the apple store)


      many thanks
      I'm sorry to be the harbinger of doom on this but it sounds like you want all of the upside without any of the downside.

      If it were as simple as hiring someone with no risk, them guaranteeing a perfect app and you selling it with no support then everyone would be doing it.

      First of all, if you're worried about someone ripping off your idea and running with it themselves then you've got to ask what you are bringing to the table. I'll happily share any idea I have with anyone because there are significant barriers to entry and it will require considerable work for someone to do it themselves both technically and marketing wise.

      Secondly, the way to avoid a lot of the problems you described in the development phase (such as someone who acts as a middle man and just re-outsources your project) is to invest the time necessary to find a well established provider. If all you do is put a loose spec up on rentacoder and take the lowest bid, you'll get what you paid for. (comments about peanuts/monkeys etc).

      I've discussed support in an earlier post so I'm not going to dwell on it but the reality is this.

      You have to test and you have to support.

      Deal with it, or don't bother.
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  • Profile picture of the author enwereuzo
    Thank you so much for coming up with this thread. I am in the process of building a blog on softwares. I have bought a domain name for it. Actually, is going to be on software reviews,tutorial,information and news in the industry. i have done my keyword research. I need your advice on best way to go about it. The best comparison script or plugin to use or should i make my own? and the best review plugin you can recommend for me.
    Thank you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by enwereuzo View Post

      Thank you so much for coming up with this thread. I am in the process of building a blog on softwares. I have bought a domain name for it. Actually, is going to be on software reviews,tutorial,information and news in the industry. i have done my keyword research. I need your advice on best way to go about it. The best comparison script or plugin to use or should i make my own? and the best review plugin you can recommend for me.
      Thank you.
      Definitely don't make your own. There are loads of script and plugins to do stuff like this.

      I've never run such a site so I can't guarantee anything but this is a product that should solve your problems and is made by a fellow warrior -

      http://www.wpreviewsite.com/
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      • Profile picture of the author enwereuzo
        Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

        Definitely don't make your own. There are loads of script and plugins to do stuff like this.

        I've never run such a site so I can't guarantee anything but this is a product that should solve your problems and is made by a fellow warrior -

        http://www.wpreviewsite.com/

        Thank you for that link. I think am done with review plugin . It is the price comparison script or plugin that is remaining.Can you recommend one for me?
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        • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
          Originally Posted by enwereuzo View Post

          Thank you for that link. I think am done with review plugin . It is the price comparison script or plugin that is remaining.Can you recommend one for me?
          Sorry. I haven't got any experience of those at all.
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          • Profile picture of the author enwereuzo
            Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

            Sorry. I haven't got any experience of those at all.
            Okay, thank you as well. One last one please, i want to be a reseller for major software companies, Please what is the best way to go about it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
              Originally Posted by enwereuzo View Post

              Okay, thank you as well. One last one please, i want to be a reseller for major software companies, Please what is the best way to go about it.
              That's a pretty broad question. I'm not exactly sure what you're after here.

              In short I'd start by affiliate selling/reselling anything you can lay your hands on that has an existing program. Demonstrate a great track record and then start contacting bigger and bigger players to add their products to an established system.
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              • Profile picture of the author enwereuzo
                Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

                That's a pretty broad question. I'm not exactly sure what you're after here.

                In short I'd start by affiliate selling/reselling anything you can lay your hands on that has an existing program. Demonstrate a great track record and then start contacting bigger and bigger players to add their products to an established system.

                Thank you so much for your time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ruka
    Thank you Andy, much appreciated.

    Interesting approach.

    As far as I can see, the options for iphone app idea protction are:

    1. Get a good non-disclosure agreement

    2. As soon as work begins on it, get it to market super fast. After all, as soon as it is selling, if it is any good it will be copied anyway

    3. Of course, ideally, have your own trusted in-house team of company employees. This is the way a friend of mine is doing it (for mobile technology) & it is probably the most fail-safe method. Also the most expensive!

    I'd be interested to hear anyone else's take on this.

    As for testing I would expect the app to be fully tested by the developer, written into the contract. When you say, "you have to test" I am not quite sure what you mean ... testing is surely essential not optional?! Maybe you are referring to extra testing down the line.

    Hmmm I was hoping that with a simple iphone app, support might not be necessary (beyond a ticket system for bug reporting, ideas, questions not covered in a FAQ).

    Thanks again for helping people out on this thread - it's making for interesting reading.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by chickenlittle View Post

      Thank you Andy, much appreciated.

      Interesting approach.

      As far as I can see, the options for iphone app idea protction are:

      1. Get a good non-disclosure agreement
      Not worth the paper they are printed on, especially if you outsource development to a foreign country. Are you really going to go over there and figure out their legal system to fight your case? No, and they know it.

      2. As soon as work begins on it, get it to market super fast. After all, as soon as it is selling, if it is any good it will be copied anyway
      Agreed and this is essential regardless of what you are developing.

      3. Of course, ideally, have your own trusted in-house team of company employees. This is the way a friend of mine is doing it (for mobile technology) & it is probably the most fail-safe method. Also the most expensive!
      It depends how you define expense. Despite all the stories you read about massive successes of outsourcing stuff like this for everyone 1 success story there are 1000s of burn out projects that don't make it. Having your own, in house, team massively increases your chances of success.

      I'd be interested to hear anyone else's take on this.

      As for testing I would expect the app to be fully tested by the developer, written into the contract. When you say, "you have to test" I am not quite sure what you mean ... testing is surely essential not optional?! Maybe you are referring to extra testing down the line.
      Testing is essential, not optional but if you want the development house that builds it for you to do extensive testing (and you should if you're not going to do it yourself) you have to budget for this. Otherwise all you will get is the basic level of positive functional testing a developer will do.

      While you may feel all warm and fuzzy thinking you will just not pay them if they don't deliver that won't help you when you don't have a working app and someone else does.

      Hmmm I was hoping that with a simple iphone app, support might not be necessary (beyond a ticket system for bug reporting, ideas, questions not covered in a FAQ).

      Thanks again for helping people out on this thread - it's making for interesting reading.
      You have to test and you have to support.

      Deal with it or don't bother.

      Looks like this thread has run it's course and I'm off for the evening now. If anyone has more questions over night I'll happily answer them in the morning. If not I'll let the thread die out.
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