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People Need to STOP selling products and start offering services

by kchui1028
78 replies
People have gotta STOP trying to sell more products and start offering valuable services in IM! Coz that's the only way One can Really make good money and feel accomplished in this biz.

I've seen a lot of advise telling newbies to stop after they see a positive cash flow, be it 5/10/50 dollars a day, either by using PPC/adwords/Organic SEO methods, etc. They were told to stop, create another site, another niche, and expand their marketing until they get to 10. 50, 100. or most i've read, 300 sites to make a decent living.
That's INSANE.

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO..

1. GET FOCUS. PICK A NICHE and STAY IN IT.
If you like music, DO MUSIC. If you like sports, GO SPORTS. If you like partying, GO PARTY. WHATEVER You choose, YOU STAY IN IT. (at least 1 year)

2. OFFERING A SERVICE.
Create your own forum within this niche, be it music, sports, party scene. Start a Blog about it. Create a Q&A site for it (great way to make money on adsense with other people's content).

3. CREATE A VALUE.
Once you have started a service, your traffic will start flowing, you'll have more visitors, and they will create content for you. (THIS IS NO LONGER A One-Side Internet) The more content you have, The higher your site will value, no matter how small.

4. MONETIZE.
The value your site have is going to bring people back and bring more people in. At that point, you can finally begin monetizing, from adsense, CPM, Affiliates to any other form of ads and start making $$$ (10-50X what you would be making by creating a single landing page 6 months ago and leave it at that.

Not one site will be sustainable for long without offering any kind of true value. Your traffic will not increase without repeated visitors.

And the only way it'll happen organically, passively, is when you stop selling and start offering.

AND THE MORE YOU GIVE IN LIFE, THE MORE YOU GET IN RETURN.


P.S. i'm not saying 300 small earning sites will not be a success, but are you really accomplished by that? Not to mention how long can half of those sites sustain. IF you ever need to make more $$, you will have to create another, and another. The time to maintain 300 sites, you could be making 100X more by focusing on just 3 sites and actually think like a business, not a reseller.
#offering #people #products #selling #services #start #stop
  • Profile picture of the author kelana
    kchui1028 - although I see how creating many small earning sites could be beneficial, I would have to agree with you.

    Creating / giving value, providing services, over-delivering etc...the money will come in. This seems to be the ethos of many successful IMers.

    Cheers - Keith
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    • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
      Originally Posted by kelana View Post

      kchui1028 - although I see how creating many small earning sites could be beneficial, I would have to agree with you.

      Creating / giving value, providing services, over-delivering etc...the money will come in. This seems to be the ethos of many successful IMers.

      Cheers - Keith
      few successful sites focus on making money right off the bat. You hear stories about a hobby site turning into a biz that makes millions overnight. It's all about services and what you can provide, not what you can take and take.

      "If you've got something the American public wants,
      everything else falls into place." - Small Time Crooks
      Think like Sunset Cookies
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I'm sure you mean well, but you're saying this like it's "the best" way and with respect it's just your opinion.

    I have sites that do very well that do not follow your model at all.

    Telling people what to do may be what some of them want, but don't confuse what you think with what other people need to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    Well, we're crushing it offline by offering services.. when I say crushing it I mean almost every business in a certain offline niche, in 3 towns around us (including our own city), use us - and only us.

    So you might have a point there. But it's not the only way, we also sell info products that bring in massive amount of sales.

    I don't think there's much difference between the two business models when it comes to the amount of money you can make, the only difference is how you make it.
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    • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
      Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

      So you might have a point there. But it's not the only way, we also sell info products that bring in massive amount of sales.
      I am not saying the only way to make money is to offer service, but without service, it's hard to retain value. Though it's hard for me to see the actual pictures of many marketers here since many of them are selling their "IM programs/guides" you really rarely see any other niche of marketing sites being promoted in this forum. (i don't blame them, afterall it's an internet marketing forum full of opportunities catering to newbies), but i wonder if they actually offer anything else other than a concept of Internet Marketing to make money.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

        Though it's hard for me to see the actual pictures of many marketers here since many of them are selling their "IM programs/guides" you really rarely see any other niche of marketing sites being promoted in this forum. (i don't blame them, afterall it's an internet marketing forum full of opportunities catering to newbies), but i wonder if they actually offer anything else other than a concept of Internet Marketing to make money.
        THAT explains why your thread title comes across with a negative tone.

        I see you've only just joined the forum and so you don't realise how many of us make money in this niche (and outside it) in many ways including selling information products.

        I've been coming to this forum since it started and I know many fellow warriors who make good money selling information products.

        For many people offering services turns into something too much like having a job and setting up a network of sites selling products is their preferred way of making significant recurring revenue that doesn't need much maintenance.

        Since my own business is a mix of most models I can see the benefits of all strategies and some of the downsides, but the last thing I would do is tell someone else how to run their business.

        I think that's what pushes my buttons, when people think they know what's best for others based only on what they like to do.

        Over the last decade I've made money using pretty much all of the popular business models that have come along and I know that what works for me won't necessarily work for others.

        Selling services is fine and there are lots of ways to do it - but it's not a requirement or a necessity, or even a preference for many people.

        I guess if you'd said "if you're selling products, here's why you should consider selling services aswell" I'd have probably just agreed with you.

        Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
    Banned
    Good point..

    Here is my take on this..

    A service is a viable long-term business model. Services are good and people will always use your service if you have an excellent brand and you provide good customer service.

    A product is good but once you launch a product its effectively dies. All products have a life cycle and in the end the product itself becomes outdated.

    I was actually thinking of offering a service myself at some point - you cannot really go wrong in offering a service and still make a lot of money. Although, I would think you need a good team of guys working for you
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    • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
      Originally Posted by Imran Naseem View Post


      A product is good but once you launch a product its effectively dies. All products have a life cycle and in the end the product itself becomes outdated.
      I honestly do not understand this. I have heard other people say it, yet I fail to see where these "vanishing" markets disappear!

      I am not doubting you, I would just like to know what types of markets you are in that peoples wants and needs are changing so quickly?

      I have several ebooks and a couple courses, two of which have been out for a year after I launched them ... they are still going strong, in fact they make more now than they did when I launched it.

      If a product offers a solution to a problem, or whatever it does, I dont see how it could die.

      Ashley
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      • Profile picture of the author Imran Naseem
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        Originally Posted by AshleyAA View Post

        I honestly do not understand this. I have heard other people say it, yet I fail to see where these "vanishing" markets disappear!

        I am not doubting you, I would just like to know what types of markets you are in that peoples wants and needs are changing so quickly?

        I have several ebooks and a couple courses, two of which have been out for a year after I launched them ... they are still going strong, in fact they make more now than they did when I launched it.

        If a product offers a solution to a problem, or whatever it does, I dont see how it could die.

        Ashley

        Hi Ashley.

        I think you misunderstood my point.

        The point I was making is you cannot keep relying on the same product to make you sales.

        A product is an asset - in the short term yes - but you have to keep the momentum and keep releasing good quality products, stay in tune with the market.

        I have several ebooks and a couple courses, two of which have been out for a year after I launched them ... they are still going strong, in fact they make more now than they did when I launched it.
        I prefer to move on and stay in tune with the market.

        New information is much better than outdated information. I am not doubting your "e-books" although I do not like to use the term E-book I would rather use the term "Guide".


        If a product offers a solution to a problem, or whatever it does, I dont see how it could die.
        That is true but the information has to be excellent and up to date.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
          Originally Posted by Imran Naseem View Post

          Hi Ashley.

          I think you misunderstood my point.

          The point I was making is you cannot keep relying on the same product to make you sales.

          A product is an asset - in the short term yes - but you have to keep the momentum and keep releasing good quality products, stay in tune with the market.
          Of course, I agree, one product - at least generally - wont provide lifelong income, at least not at the same level as when it came out.

          Yet I get a wave of actual sadness when I hear people talk about how they make 5, 10 even 20 products a month, one after another just to stay afloat.

          To me, that defeats the point of what IM means to me. Not that it isnt a good business model, just not for me.

          Originally Posted by Imran Naseem View Post

          I prefer to move on and stay in tune with the market.

          New information is much better than outdated information. I am not doubting your "e-books" although I do not like to use the term E-book I would rather use the term "Guide".
          Agreed, outdated information is never any good, but that doesnt warrant creating a whole new product. I have updated my products several times since releasing them, at some point when the information warrants new "packaging" then of course I will.

          But that is entirely different to having a product die out. The way you worded your response made it seem like you create a product, promote it, get a few sales, then move onto the next.

          And yes I never call ebooks "ebooks" - except for here on the WF. If I say guide people may think I mean an actual paper book... and ebook is a lot easier to write then digital guide

          Ashley
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Imran Naseem View Post

          The point I was making is you cannot keep relying on the same product to make you sales.
          An oversimplified illustration of the point.

          50 people would like your book on cats.

          You sell 5 copies every month.

          In ten months, all 50 people have your book.

          You can't sell it anymore.

          Now, in reality, more people will begin to want your book. Last month, Joe didn't care about your book on cats; this month, he moved in with a girl who has a cat, and he's become interested. So you can sell one more copy.

          But in a nutshell: if you are selling your product faster than people are becoming interested in it, your market will eventually vanish.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by precious007 View Post

            Everyone gets a market share be it online or offline.
            The very reason we have a notion of an "evergreen" market is because most markets are not. They run out. You can sell this product to them for a while, and then you can't. You need to change the product to match their needs.
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author InternetSuccess001
      Actually I'd disagree with you. There are many products that are still successful, hundreds of years later. Cars were invented about 100 years ago, people still drive them. Shakespeare wrote his plays almost 500 years ago, people still study them in school and perform them.

      Crappy products, however, yes, have a short life cycle. Products designed to capitalize on current trends, have a short life cycle. There is a difference between a product to show how to make money marketing through facebook, and a product showing how to apply good marketing principles to any business you run.

      Services also do well. With services it tends to be easier to get repeat customers and grow faster, simply because you don't have to make new products, but simply make sure the customers you have are happy, and then tweak your business model to increase your profits while maintaining a high quality level of service and satisfied customers.

      Products and services both work. It depends what your interest is, and how you implement the strategy.

      Originally Posted by Imran Naseem View Post

      Good point..

      Here is my take on this..

      A service is a viable long-term business model. Services are good and people will always use your service if you have an excellent brand and you provide good customer service.

      A product is good but once you launch a product its effectively dies. All products have a life cycle and in the end the product itself becomes outdated.

      I was actually thinking of offering a service myself at some point - you cannot really go wrong in offering a service and still make a lot of money. Although, I would think you need a good team of guys working for you
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  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Rufus
    I agree with Andy.

    It's a given that you need to be creating and giving value to your prospects, subscribers and customers. The psycological power of recipriocity is well known.

    But as for not creating products and starting to offer services, that's crazy.

    Creating 100 different sites in 100 different niches is not the most efficient way to do things, but there are ways it can be done with the right knowledge and outsourcing.

    It's not the way I would choose, but others have done so very successfully.

    Like you I believe in staying in one niche.

    I would create as DEEP a sales funnel as you can in that niche, offering a MIXTURE of services and products.

    The beauty of this model is that you can start off small and then as you create more things, you can just bolt them on to the end of the funnel.

    Example. Eben Pagan with Double Your Dating. He starts off by trying to sell you a $20 ebook.

    That one squeeze page, and that $20 ebook has turned into a $30 million dollar a year sales funnel.

    I bet it didn't start off that way though. Just one squeeze page and a $20 ebook. The value he offers comes in the form of the emails that he sends, with just good helpful advice.

    It's the reason people entered their name and email address in the first place. For advice.

    That's my favourite model, BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE.

    Million ways to make a million dollars online. Just choose one. MASTER IT. Then move onto the next when you feel you're ready.

    Anyway, I'm off.

    Reach new heights

    Nathan
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    • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
      Originally Posted by Nathan Rufus View Post

      Example. Eben Pagan with Double Your Dating. He starts off by trying to sell you a $20 ebook.

      That one squeeze page, and that $20 ebook has turned into a $30 million dollar a year sales funnel.

      I bet it didn't start off that way though. Just one squeeze page and a $20 ebook. The value he offers comes in the form of the emails that he sends, with just good helpful advice.

      It's the reason people entered their name and email address in the first place. For advice.

      That's my favourite model, BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE.
      i agree there's not just one model that works. But i bet "Double your Dating" wouldn't be as successful as it'd been Had IT just let people enter their name and email address, FOR BUYING or SELLING EBooks, instead of Free Good Helpful advice. That's a service that he provides that will intrigue readers to buy his ebook after a sounded advice he's given. It's no rocket science to his method why he would succeed.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nathan Rufus
        Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

        i agree there's not just one model that works. But i bet "Double your Dating" wouldn't be as successful as it'd been Had IT just let people enter their name and email address, FOR BUYING or SELLING EBooks, instead of Free Good Helpful advice. That's a service that he provides that will intrigue readers to buy his ebook after a sounded advice he's given. It's no rocket science to his method why he would succeed.
        Your original post sounded like you were saying to stop selling products and provide services.

        Maybe it should have said stop trying to sell straight away, and provide good value first.

        He's providing value through the info in his messages. But do you REALLY think that he is at the helm providing this "service". It is almost certainly an autoresponder that has been tested and tested again to invoke recipriocity and persuade the person to buy the ebook.

        Once they have bought that they'll be put on a different autoresponder, trying to sell them something, probably for $97.

        Yaro Starak did a brilliant post on this a while back. All about sales funnels.

        He is providing good content, but its definitely all on autopilot and that content has been purposely designed to influence your buying decision.
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        • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
          Originally Posted by Nathan Rufus View Post

          Once they have bought that they'll be put on a different autoresponder, trying to sell them something, probably for $97.

          Yaro Starak did a brilliant post on this a while back. All about sales funnels.

          He is providing good content, but its definitely all on autopilot and that content has been purposely designed to influence your buying decision.
          I agree, but still no newbies would be able to do what he does at initial stage of the biz... all the autoresponders, tuning and designing a system that works again and again come later after you've got your "craft" (for the sake of not cursing) together.
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          • Profile picture of the author Nathan Rufus
            Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

            I agree, but still no newbies would be able to do what he does at initial stage of the biz... all the autoresponders, tuning and designing a system that works again and again come later after you've got your "craft" (for the sake of not cursing) together.

            What's your definition of a newbie?

            Of course someone just starting out is not going to create a $30m dollar business straight off the bat.

            But if you're talking about success and creating a profitable business, how many "stories" do you want me to give you of what you could call a "newbie" making four/five figures per month on the internet.

            If we call a newbie under 12 months online then there are plenty of success stories out there.

            All using different business models, all running profitable businesses, which is a success in itself.
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            • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
              Originally Posted by Nathan Rufus View Post

              If we call a newbie under 12 months online then there are plenty of success stories out there.

              All using different business models, all running profitable businesses, which is a success in itself.
              I agree with that.. i think i know where you're coming from.
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  • Profile picture of the author wiseleo
    The only challenge to this is scalability.

    My time can't be extended beyond 24 hours in a day. Thus, I productized my service offering, dropped its price to a level that will make me many enemies (at 3-year membership level, you buy my time for less per month than my hourly rate is today), and will focus on scalability to make real money.

    On the other hand, 300 sites on full autopilot is not a bad little gig.

    Let me show you an example: Teddy Shabba (TeddyShabba) on Twitter

    This entire account is an autoresponder BOT set to tweet once every 40 minutes! The pattern is a bunch of inspirational quotes, promo link, a bunch of quotes etc... Now check out how many followers it got. I can assure you, there is zero manual input on that account.

    He's not spamming. He just uses obvious copywriter-style headline tweets to drive traffic. I'd wager he makes quite a bit of money from that site as the links haven't changed much in the last 2 years or so.

    I just noticed that account stopped tweeting in November of 2009. Wouldn't know why, but it's not suspended. Total autopilot and no one at the switch to restart the stalled engine?
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    • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
      Originally Posted by wiseleo View Post

      Let me show you an example: Teddy Shabba (TeddyShabba) on Twitter

      This entire account is an autoresponder BOT set to tweet once every 40 minutes! The pattern is a bunch of inspirational quotes, promo link, a bunch of quotes etc... Now check out how many followers it got. I can assure you, there is zero manual input on that account.

      He's not spamming. He just uses obvious copywriter-style headline tweets to drive traffic. I'd wager he makes quite a bit of money from that site as the links haven't changed much in the last 2 years or so.

      I just noticed that account stopped tweeting in November of 2009. Wouldn't know why, but it's not suspended. Total autopilot and no one at the switch to restart the stalled engine?
      I have seen twitter accounts like these hundreds, if not thousands of times, they always have almost the same # of followers as they follow.
      Which basically mean, the whole thing is an "i follow you, you follow me back" thing. Now i bet most of the followers are the same as him trying to sell people stuff, rarely would they buy in what others are selling. It creates no true value and no sales. The whole thing is a sham really.
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  • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
    Originally Posted by precious007 View Post

    What type of services have you thought about?

    Are you referring to private coaching, instead of a normal product/ebook? Because if that is the case, they're two completely different beasts.

    Al.
    Are "coaching people how to make money" the only service being provided in America? A Food critic blog could be a service if you know how to spin it creatively.
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  • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
    Have all you guys read the Emyth ???
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    • Profile picture of the author sdentrepreneur
      Originally Posted by freelance4money View Post

      Have all you guys read the Emyth ???
      Love the E-Myth by Michael Gerber, I went through their Mastery Course.

      I sell Internet Education Products online but I back it up with live training and mentoring.
      I do the same for retail businesses and self employed individuals who want to learn how to drive traffic and become expert Internet Marketers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
    Fact is, the money is not in labor, it's in management.

    ..the potential revenue for product creators far outweighs that of people providing services. On top of that, when you provide services [generally], your earnings are active as in the more you work, the more you earn.

    Whereas people who own products [or scalable, resell-able services] have passive incomes.

    I wish it were true, but sadly it's not. I offer services, but I'm working on a few products.

    Real money is in doing something once and reaping the rewards over and over.
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    • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
      Originally Posted by Damien Roche View Post

      Fact is, the money is not in labor, it's in management.

      Real money is in doing something once and reaping the rewards over and over.
      i couldn't agree more. After the 4th step of monetization, the 5th step would be outsoucing.

      I outsouce all my work from SEO, Marketing, Programming, Development to Indians (great techies) on Elance.com
      I just sit at home everyday and manage and keep track of all these work being done and plan ahead on what my competitors and the market will do ahead of time. Now that's BUSINESS.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Rufus
      Originally Posted by Damien Roche View Post

      Fact is, the money is not in labor, it's in management.

      ..the potential revenue for product creators far outweighs that of people providing services. On top of that, when you provide services [generally], your earnings are active as in the more you work, the more you earn.

      Whereas people who own products [or scalable, resell-able services] have passive incomes.

      I wish it were true, but sadly it's not. I offer services, but I'm working on a few products.

      Real money is in doing something once and reaping the rewards over and over.
      Nail on head Damien.

      Time for money, whether it's your time or someone elses. It doesn't matter. The fact that "somebody" has to provide a service puts a cap on your earnings by the amount of time that the person has to provide that service.

      kchui1028, a 6 month $97 dollar membership site "coaching people how to make money" is both an information product and it's providing a service.

      Look what it comes down to is this.

      Whether product or service.

      Are you delivering what you promised?

      Better still, are you over delivering on what you promised?

      If so, then no matter what business model you are using, you customers will become repeat customers and you'll end up a success.

      Different business models, choose one and make it a success
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  • Profile picture of the author raycowie
    I agree too. I don't see how you're supposed to make a profit with loads and loads of small niche sites, which you have to pay for yourself. If you needed 300 sites to get rich, you'd have to cope with being broke first, because there's $3000 worth of domain names to pay for (and that's without whois). Build a few sites (pointing to each other) and make them better.
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  • Profile picture of the author ceryn91
    i totally agree!
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  • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
    kchui...your right on.

    Establish and MONOTIZE a business, put that and the services on auto-pilot...then move on to a new niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Real money is in CAPITAL.... the only true "auto-pilot".
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    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Real money is in CAPITAL.... the only true "auto-pilot".
      Outsourcing is true auto-pilot...you just have to learn how to build teams and hire manager before you can put things on auto-pilot. Not easy..but beyond worth it.

      Aaryn
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

        Outsourcing is true auto-pilot...you just have to learn how to build teams and hire manager before you can put things on auto-pilot. Not easy..but beyond worth it.

        Aaryn

        No. Someone has to manage the outsourcers. And then someone has to oversee the people managing the outsourcers.

        Read a little bit about the foundations of capitalism. Labor vs. Capital. Maybe sit through an econ 101 class somewhere. Read Adam Smith.

        The only true auto-pilot is putting capital to work. That requires no organization of your own. No outsourcers, no labor, no management structure. I don't have to learn squat. I write a check. I get return.

        Invest money.

        Do nothing.

        Get return.

        The end.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          No. Someone has to manage the outsourcers. And then someone has to oversee the people managing the outsourcers.

          Read a little bit about the foundations of capitalism. Labor vs. Capital. Maybe sit through an econ 101 class somewhere. Read Adam Smith.

          The only true auto-pilot is putting capital to work. That requires no organization of your own. No outsourcers, no labor, no management structure. I don't have to learn squat. I write a check. I get return.

          Invest money.

          Do nothing.

          Get return.

          The end.
          Invest money.

          Do nothing.

          The End of YOU as you watch your Investments disintegrate because you did nothing !!


          Incidentally, Steve Cohen, Warren Buffet, John Paulson and many other short term and long term Traders and Investors would wholeheartedly disagree with your naive and flawed Assertion !!!
          Signature

          Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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        • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          No. Someone has to manage the outsourcers. And then someone has to oversee the people managing the outsourcers.

          Read a little bit about the foundations of capitalism. Labor vs. Capital. Maybe sit through an econ 101 class somewhere. Read Adam Smith.

          The only true auto-pilot is putting capital to work. That requires no organization of your own. No outsourcers, no labor, no management structure. I don't have to learn squat. I write a check. I get return.

          Invest money.

          Do nothing.

          Get return.

          The end.
          You're under the impression that investment doesn't take research...

          I'd rather manage 2 managers that oversee 10 teams than to sit down and research on investment for hours on end...

          I trade stocks, the foreign exchange, and sometimes gold...

          I'd rather outsource to be honest with you...

          And I set my company up to where everything is on auto-pilot for me...

          My business partner outsources....

          My work?

          Simple: Research, product development, systems and business modeling...business optimization and leverage.

          I do nothing else...cept I like to put together teams and systems so I join in every once in a while.

          And I know a bunch about economics and game theory btw...I've studied game theory for 3 years and economics for 1...not full time on economics but let's just say I've spent hundreds of hours understanding how it relates to the rise and falls of currencies...which in the end...turned out to be pretty small.

          : 0

          Investing is far from auto-pilot..you don't just buy and leave...SOMEONE HAS TO MANAGE IT.

          Aaryn
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          • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            Invest money.

            Do nothing.

            The End of YOU as you watch your Investments disintegrate because you did nothing !!


            Incidentally, Steve Cohen, Warren Buffet, John Paulson and many other short term and long term Traders and Investors would wholeheartedly disagree with your naive and flawed Assertion !!!
            Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

            You're under the impression that investment doesn't take research...

            I'd rather manage 2 managers that oversee 10 teams than to sit down and research on investment for hours on end...

            I trade stocks, the foreign exchange, and sometimes gold...

            I'd rather outsource to be honest with you...

            And I set my company up to where everything is on auto-pilot for me...

            My business partner outsources....

            My work?

            Simple: Research, product development, systems and business modeling...business optimization and leverage.

            I do nothing else...cept I like to put together teams and systems so I join in every once in a while.

            And I know a bunch about economics and game theory btw...I've studied game theory for 3 years and economics for 1...not full time on economics but let's just say I've spent hundreds of hours understanding how it relates to the rise and falls of currencies...which in the end...turned out to be pretty small.

            : 0

            Investing is far from auto-pilot..you don't just buy and leave...SOMEONE HAS TO MANAGE IT.

            Aaryn
            Yep. Someone does have to manage it.

            I write the check, they manage it.

            They're labor. I'm capital. They work. I don't. My money works for me. For example, I have a natural gas partnership in which I own several units. I've never once lifted a finger since the mid 90s when I bought it. I get a quarterly check like clockwork. I don't do squat. Even in a down market.

            I write checks to a kid who trades illiquid assets for me on secondary private equity markets. He sends letters to owners of shares in REITs that present a buy offer at a very low price based on the real estate market valuations being lower than REIT proformas. Owners of shares are happy to free up liquidity because they're not savvy to secondary market trading and think they're stuck with a dead fish. Kid turns around and sells on private secondary exchanges and doubles or even triples our money in 45-60 days. He brings me back a check.

            I don't do squat. Some days up. Some days down. Always more in the bucket than before I started. I still didn't lift a finger.
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            • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

              Yep. Someone does have to manage it.

              I write the check, they manage it.

              They're labor. I'm capital. They work. I don't. My money works for me. For example, I have a natural gas partnership in which I own several units. I've never once lifted a finger since the mid 90s when I bought it. I get a quarterly check like clockwork. I don't do squat. Even in a down market.

              I write checks to a kid who trades illiquid assets for me on secondary private equity markets. He sends letters to owners of shares in REITs that present a buy offer at a very low price based on the real estate market valuations being lower than REIT proformas. Owners of shares are happy to free up liquidity because they're not savvy to secondary market trading and think they're stuck with a dead fish. Kid turns around and sells on private secondary exchanges and doubles or even triples our money in 45-60 days. He brings me back a check.

              I don't do squat. Some days up. Some days down. Always more in the bucket than before I started. I still didn't lift a finger.
              You just defined outsourcing...

              In outsourcing you send people checks to manage your VAs and contractors and they take care of the job. Managing them is easy...I'll always be in contact because I mapped out my business structure to get feedback on our models/strategies/conversion/etc so I can improve them...how they work etc...I'll always be "managing" but without having to manage...it's just business optimization and leverage...

              That's pretty good though...100% return every 2 months...I only get 60% >.<

              That kid's bad-ass.
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              • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

                You just defined outsourcing...

                In outsourcing you send people checks to manage your VAs and contractors and they take care of the job. Managing them is easy...I'll always be in contact because I mapped out my business structure to get feedback on our models/strategies/conversion/etc so I can improve them...how they work etc...I'll always be "managing" but without having to manage...it's just business optimization and leverage...

                That's pretty good though...100% return every 2 months...I only get 60% >.<

                That kid's bad-ass.

                No, it's not outsourcing because I am not managing some value-adding process that results in some deliverable.

                Outsourcing is done with a specific operational deliverable in mind, but implies business process.

                Outsourcing a business process is not investing.

                Investing is wagering. It's writing a check and waiting on the result.

                He tells me what he thinks he can do.

                I write him a check.

                He comes back with a check for me.

                He's the one outsourcing. He hires a copywriter, a direct mail fulfillment company, etc...

                I'm not even overseeing his efforts. I don't care how he does it.

                If he fails, then we're done. Success or failure is wholly shouldered by him without my oversight.

                Within this context, IF I were to outsource in some capacity, then any financial manager I would hire to oversee his operational efforts would then fall under the auspices of labor.
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                • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
                  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


                  I'm not even overseeing his efforts. I don't care how he does it.

                  If he fails, then we're done. Success or failure is wholly shouldered by him without my oversight.
                  That's exactly how I outsource...

                  I pay mangers by efficiency and drop them if production drops under a certain rate...and how do I "oversee" this efficiency? When I build my systems. Something I have to do no matter what because I develop business information products.

                  I don't babysit people.

                  I pay them so I don't have to worry about that area. Not so I have to babysit.

                  You're just not good at outsourcing because you feel like there's work involved...the only work involved comes in developing your teams and hiring your VAs...if you do that right, you can set it on auto-pilot....

                  What happens when your investor doesn't deliver? Do you just go ohhh no...guess that was a good run...or do you go find another one?

                  I mean didn't you have to find this investor? Or did he just hop on your lap and say...hey I have a proposal?
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                  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                    Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

                    Or did he just hop on your lap and say...hey I have a proposal?

                    Yep.

                    That's what investors do.

                    Listen to proposals.

                    Write checks.

                    Get returns.

                    We don't hire people (well, except the attorney that draws up the agreements).

                    We don't "set things up".

                    We don't pay managers.

                    We don't develop teams.

                    We don't do squat.

                    The capital does the work for us.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations
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                    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                      Yep.

                      That's what investors do.

                      Listen to proposals.

                      Write checks.

                      Get returns.

                      We don't hire people (well, except the attorney that draws up the agreements).

                      We don't "set things up".

                      We don't pay managers.

                      We don't develop teams.

                      We don't do squat.

                      The capital does the work for us.

                      The Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                      That's cute...like I said...I choose to develop my teams because I find it entertaining.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
                        Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

                        That's cute...like I said...I choose to develop my teams because I find it entertaining.
                        That's a different conversation. We all do what we do for our own reasons.

                        None of our individual motivations for why we do what we do change the core, foundational precepts of capital theory.

                        Apples and oranges.

                        I'm older now. I don't find organization building particularly entertaining. I did it for a very long time. As a young man, I was motivated for different reasons - mostly ego... being the top guy... etc...

                        But the idea of "he who has the gold makes the rules" presumes that there are others to follow the rules.

                        Now that I'm wiser, I realize that building organizations are laden with toxic friction, and I'm far less quixotic.

                        But this is so far afield from the original discussion, I'm afraid we've completely hijacked the original post.

                        Good conversation though.
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                        • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
                          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                          That's a different conversation. We all do what we do for our own reasons.

                          None of our individual motivations for why we do what we do change the core, foundational precepts of capital theory.

                          Apples and oranges.

                          I'm older now. I don't find organization building particularly entertaining. I did it for a very long time. As a young man, I was motivated for different reasons - mostly ego... being the top guy... etc...

                          But the idea of "he who has the gold makes the rules" presumes that there are others to follow the rules.

                          Now that I'm wiser, I realize that building organizations are laden with toxic friction, and I'm far less quixotic.

                          But this is so far afield from the original discussion, I'm afraid we've completely hijacked the original post.

                          Good conversation though.
                          Hmm..that makes sense...I have a really weird reason for this...I love game theory and I love to create and put things together...my ego isn't really involved in status...the only status I want is the kid that can do whatever he feels like when he feels like...

                          I'm trying to take all the bs out of building a business and I think I'm doing a good job at it so far.

                          Honestly my only goal is to work when I choose and to not be limited by money...I want to travel & start cool hobbies, meet new people...you know the average IMing dream ; )

                          I think the combination makes business a good starting point in my career....after this I move on to teach trading actually : p...or success and happiness. One of the two....I have a feeling my love for game theory isn't going to be out of juice for 5 to 10 years atleast...grrrr


                          Yeah...we definitely jacked the thread...sorry kchui.
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                          • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
                            Originally Posted by AwesomePossum View Post

                            Yeah...we definitely jacked the thread...sorry kchui.
                            HAHA.. no big deal. I like reading all the random banters between people, quite entertaining, plus it's keep my post alive. LOL
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                        • Profile picture of the author Dana Forsythe
                          I think as long as you do the best you possibly can in each niche then people are fine. Not keep making fast and cheap sites and skipping around all over the place. All that does is saturate the market with a ton of crappy sites lol
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                    • Profile picture of the author AwesomePossum
                      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

                      Yep.

                      That's what investors do.

                      Listen to proposals.

                      Write checks.

                      Get returns.

                      We don't hire people (well, except the attorney that draws up the agreements).

                      We don't "set things up".

                      We don't pay managers.

                      We don't develop teams.

                      We don't do squat.

                      The capital does the work for us.

                      The Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                      Actually...I was wondering if I could befriend you on Warrior and hit you up in maybe a year or so to see how your whole investing thing is working out....I mean would you be chill teaching me how you go about all this investing? I like trading personally...but I can't argue with this way to make money...supplying money to traders is kinda cool too : p
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            • Profile picture of the author David Squires
              Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

              Yep. Someone does have to manage it.

              I write the check, they manage it.

              They're labor. I'm capital. They work. I don't. My money works for me. For example, I have a natural gas partnership in which I own several units. I've never once lifted a finger since the mid 90s when I bought it. I get a quarterly check like clockwork. I don't do squat. Even in a down market.

              I write checks to a kid who trades illiquid assets for me on secondary private equity markets. He sends letters to owners of shares in REITs that present a buy offer at a very low price based on the real estate market valuations being lower than REIT proformas. Owners of shares are happy to free up liquidity because they're not savvy to secondary market trading and think they're stuck with a dead fish. Kid turns around and sells on private secondary exchanges and doubles or even triples our money in 45-60 days. He brings me back a check.

              I don't do squat. Some days up. Some days down. Always more in the bucket than before I started. I still didn't lift a finger.
              Well, you won't have that kid to manage your money very long. If he can double or triple an investment in less than two months time, he'll be making money for himself only soon. I mean $10,000 (a small sum for someone that can create wealth like this kid) turns into $640,000 after only one year if he doubles the money every two months (using your conservative figures). He's up over $4 million year two. And by year three...

              An incredible $2 billion.
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              • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
                Originally Posted by David Squires View Post

                Well, you won't have that kid to manage your money very long. If he can double or triple an investment in less than two months time, he'll be making money for himself only soon. I mean $10,000 (a small sum for someone that can create wealth like this kid) turns into $640,000 after only one year if he doubles the money every two months (using your conservative figures). He's up over $4 million year two. And by year three...

                An incredible $2 billion.
                lol I have no clue what you guys are talking about, that stuff just confuses me ... but that was funny ...

                ... the kid is just a work-a-holic ... he must not do it for the money lol
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by David Squires View Post

                Well, you won't have that kid to manage your money very long. If he can double or triple an investment in less than two months time, he'll be making money for himself only soon.
                You're forgetting that he needs an initial investment. Investment quality goes up dramatically when you can make larger investments. I know several people who make a really good living doing this sort of thing, but they don't make anywhere near enough to do it themselves.

                What a lot of these investment geniuses are doing is pooling lots of capital. They can turn $2 million into $6 million in two months - but they can't even turn $1 million into $1.5 million in four months. If you can't put enough fuel in the tank before leaving point A, you don't get to point B at all.

                And as it stands, that $2 million probably came from a dozen or more investors. They can't do it themselves, either. The whole team is necessary, and nobody can walk out and go it alone.

                (All figures are arbitrary, and do not represent actual levels of investment that do or do not work on any specific system or plan.)
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                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  You're forgetting that he needs an initial investment. Investment quality goes up dramatically when you can make larger investments. I know several people who make a really good living doing this sort of thing, but they don't make anywhere near enough to do it themselves.

                  What a lot of these investment geniuses are doing is pooling lots of capital. They can turn $2 million into $6 million in two months - but they can't even turn $1 million into $1.5 million in four months. If you can't put enough fuel in the tank before leaving point A, you don't get to point B at all.

                  And as it stands, that $2 million probably came from a dozen or more investors. They can't do it themselves, either. The whole team is necessary, and nobody can walk out and go it alone.

                  (All figures are arbitrary, and do not represent actual levels of investment that do or do not work on any specific system or plan.)
                  Yeah that makes sense. As I said I was confused at the start of their conversation.

                  Like the gas tank analogy! Made it clearer.

                  Ashley
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    • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
      The whole reason I got into IM is because of the potential to work smarter, planning so that I didnt need to be at it all the time.

      The "motto" that I have lived my life by (as short as it has been) is that I dont ever want to trade my time for money.

      The thought of exchanging parts of my life for money depresses the hell out of me.

      I even went so far as to tell my school counselors that I would rather live a less than ideal life then work at a job where the amount of time spent each day was in direct connection to how much I made.

      So although I understand your point, for me, and I am guessing quite a few others, it doesnt sound very appealing.

      Ashley
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  • Profile picture of the author discrat
    Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

    People have gotta STOP trying to sell more products and start offering valuable services in IM! Coz that's the only way One can Really make good money and feel accomplished in this biz.

    I've seen a lot of advise telling newbies to stop after they see a positive cash flow, be it 5/10/50 dollars a day, either by using PPC/adwords/Organic SEO methods, etc. They were told to stop, create another site, another niche, and expand their marketing until they get to 10. 50, 100. or most i've read, 300 sites to make a decent living.
    That's INSANE.

    WHAT YOU SHOULD DO..

    1. GET FOCUS. PICK A NICHE and STAY IN IT.
    If you like music, DO MUSIC. If you like sports, GO SPORTS. If you like partying, GO PARTY. WHATEVER You choose, YOU STAY IN IT. (at least 1 year)

    2. OFFERING A SERVICE.
    Create your own forum within this niche, be it music, sports, party scene. Start a Blog about it. Create a Q&A site for it (great way to make money on adsense with other people's content).

    3. CREATE A VALUE.
    Once you have started a service, your traffic will start flowing, you'll have more visitors, and they will create content for you. (THIS IS NO LONGER A One-Side Internet) The more content you have, The higher your site will value, no matter how small.

    4. MONETIZE.
    The value your site have is going to bring people back and bring more people in. At that point, you can finally begin monetizing, from adsense, CPM, Affiliates to any other form of ads and start making $$$ (10-50X what you would be making by creating a single landing page 6 months ago and leave it at that.

    Not one site will be sustainable for long without offering any kind of true value. Your traffic will not increase without repeated visitors.

    And the only way it'll happen organically, passively, is when you stop selling and start offering.

    AND THE MORE YOU GIVE IN LIFE, THE MORE YOU GET IN RETURN.


    P.S. i'm not saying 300 small earning sites will not be a success, but are you really accomplished by that? Not to mention how long can half of those sites sustain. IF you ever need to make more $$, you will have to create another, and another. The time to maintain 300 sites, you could be making 100X more by focusing on just 3 sites and actually think like a business, not a reseller.
    Last time I checked a Product was a Service. Maybe you mean Goods ??
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    I agree, the money always has and will always be in services, such as banking and prostitution.

    However, creating one that is and will always stay in demand is another, and can require SIGNIFICANT capital just for research and development.

    So good luck.


    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetSuccess001
    Good thread, I think you mean well.

    While 'spamming' the internet (for some) has become a viable business model (they have to work at it, but if they make enough and higher the right people, they can enjoy the money while others do the work) -- some people who say do have 300 websites actually have found out how to effectively monetize that while providing a valuable service (as opposed to say google adsense autoblogs, which take other people's content and rehash it on their website, hoping to get marginal profits from people inadvertently clicking on adsense ads, etc).

    I do agree that for someone starting out, focusing on a particular product or service that they are interested in will be infinitely easier (in the long run), as it's something they enjoy doing and it comes through.

    I think many people though see the internet as a gold mine, and just want to 'strike it rich' once and live what they perceive the 'good' life to be. While some do (as some people do win the lottery), for the rest of the people it is good to build a good solid business foundation upon which to build.

    Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

    People have gotta STOP trying to sell more products and start offering valuable services in IM! Coz that's the only way One can Really make good money and feel accomplished in this biz.

    I've seen a lot of advise telling newbies to stop after they see a positive cash flow, be it 5/10/50 dollars a day, either by using PPC/adwords/Organic SEO methods, etc. They were told to stop, create another site, another niche, and expand their marketing until they get to 10. 50, 100. or most i've read, 300 sites to make a decent living.
    That's INSANE.

    WHAT YOU SHOULD DO..

    1. GET FOCUS. PICK A NICHE and STAY IN IT.
    If you like music, DO MUSIC. If you like sports, GO SPORTS. If you like partying, GO PARTY. WHATEVER You choose, YOU STAY IN IT. (at least 1 year)

    2. OFFERING A SERVICE.
    Create your own forum within this niche, be it music, sports, party scene. Start a Blog about it. Create a Q&A site for it (great way to make money on adsense with other people's content).

    3. CREATE A VALUE.
    Once you have started a service, your traffic will start flowing, you'll have more visitors, and they will create content for you. (THIS IS NO LONGER A One-Side Internet) The more content you have, The higher your site will value, no matter how small.

    4. MONETIZE.
    The value your site have is going to bring people back and bring more people in. At that point, you can finally begin monetizing, from adsense, CPM, Affiliates to any other form of ads and start making $$$ (10-50X what you would be making by creating a single landing page 6 months ago and leave it at that.

    Not one site will be sustainable for long without offering any kind of true value. Your traffic will not increase without repeated visitors.

    And the only way it'll happen organically, passively, is when you stop selling and start offering.

    AND THE MORE YOU GIVE IN LIFE, THE MORE YOU GET IN RETURN.


    P.S. i'm not saying 300 small earning sites will not be a success, but are you really accomplished by that? Not to mention how long can half of those sites sustain. IF you ever need to make more $$, you will have to create another, and another. The time to maintain 300 sites, you could be making 100X more by focusing on just 3 sites and actually think like a business, not a reseller.
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    • Profile picture of the author jbsmith
      For many people I know (including my own business) that would BAD advice!

      Here's why...

      About 8-years ago I launched my first product - sold into IM, but also two other niches

      Then 7-years ago I expanded that into a bigger package that included a manual/physical product and tripled my profits

      Then 6-years ago I branched into two additional markets with products

      Then 5-years ago, after avoiding it for two years, my own coaching program and consulting services - but interestingly - my price was substantially elevated BECAUSE of the products and customers I had that had bought my PRODUCTS.

      Then 4-years ago I launched a membership site (product) that was a way to offer an automated service where I create the content once and sell it over and over.

      Look - services are great, but the leverage a product gives you is the KEY to making big profits online and keeping yourself sane to enjoy your profit.

      Today I offer services for three reasons only...

      1. As a favor - either personal or in exchange for another favor
      2. To keep in touch with my market personally which gives me more ideas for products
      3. To "test" or apply a "case study" of a product that I am or have developed.

      That's it -- otherwise it is just not worth my while to lose time offering a service when I could bundle the same information offered in the service as a product that sells again and again and again.

      I just finished working with two consellors in different fields that were working 60-80 hour workweeks and were burned out - we turned their years of offering services into info products and suddenly they have a new life...it is quite amazing.

      Jeff
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

    People have gotta STOP trying to sell more products and start offering valuable services in IM!
    Congratulations, you have found the secret message.

    The internet is full of people in a service industry, labouring under the misapprehension that they are in a manufacturing industry.

    The legacy of the American war between the states was not the end of slavery, but the beginning of the corporate machine - which is our most prolific and insidious export.

    Not everything can be produced on an assembly line.

    Attention is the currency of the future.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author franamico
    I definitely I agree with you on this...
    First of all, if you work on your own, investing in too many niches is extremely time consuming. However, sometimes things don't work out. And you have to find out why.

    Sometimes it's just a bad niche...and it's better to move on.

    However most of the times our main weakness is that we focus on making money rather than providing value. After all we are in business to make money, aren't we?

    Thing is that your prospects will buy from you if they find that you can add value to their business or life.

    So how are we going to add value to our subscribers?
    I believe it could be as simple as finding a nice balance between selling and giving away free stuff.

    How about PLR products?

    It's true that they can be very cheap (sometimes they are not!) but it's also true that, sometimes, you can help your subscribers achieve their goals with the right products at the right time.
    This could be a small piece of software, PLR articles or even a tip on what to look into.

    I think that we buy from those whom we respect and trust. And if you are in business just to make affiliate offers, your subscribers will notice that immediately and eventually bail out.

    It's very tempting, for example to copy and paste the emails provided by the merchant. They are written by professional copywriters, true...

    but what if your subscriber receives the same email by different marketers? on the same day? what do you think she's going to do? or feel about your newsletter? she will ignore it!!

    So, it is true that the money is in your list. and, for this very reason, you must focus on helping others be successful offering the best of the best strategies and products you can find.
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  • Profile picture of the author MalloryMedia
    Some people are going to be more attracted to the "set it and forget it" mentality of multiple sites, or maybe jjust use them for traffic to a main site. Others are going to try to go as deep as possible in one niche. Or you can do some of each. The biggest problem I see is that people are too willing to take one guru's advice while disregrading what would be best for them in the long run.
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  • Profile picture of the author wookiejazz
    I argree with a fair portion what what has been covered here. Too many out there think it's as easy as setting up a blog, filling it with plr articles and then cramming it to buggery with adsense hoplinks and ads, I recently started such a site with just such a theme. As a test, the jury is still out but the verdict looks to be unfavorable to say the least. Adsense wise another blog I have that is totally niche specific is doing better. No plr just good content about a topic that I am fascinated by.
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    • Profile picture of the author Denise Patton
      I believe this may be a better strategy for newbies starting out. I have been exploring affiliate marketing by setting up various niche blogs/sites and honestly I've decided that my time is better spent right now building my service related sites. When I've earned money with the service sites, I can then invest it in other IM ventures.

      It is a matter of preference and a person can do both, however I agree with the OP when they say that building a valuable service based business can elevate your sense of accomplishment in this arena, and in my experience has been the quickest way to earn money and gain credibility.

      I've always considered my service related sites to be more legitimate ventures and that's honestly because my niche sites are really nothing ground breaking, and I'll go out on a limb and say the vast majority aren't either.
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  • Profile picture of the author sainteve21
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by sainteve21 View Post

      Totally agree, with the current saturation of products, some good but most mostly c**p, I believe the IM servicing industry is the place to be positioned
      Go hire some people to write articles and build backlinks.

      The services are mostly crap, too.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Go hire some people to write articles and build backlinks.

        The services are mostly crap, too.
        We're all hustlers then? LOL Trying to shove "crap" to people and take their money, and We're darn good at it.. aren't we? LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
          Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

          We're all hustlers then? LOL Trying to shove "crap" to people and take their money, and We're darn good at it.. aren't we? LOL
          No, not necessarily. It's just Sturgeon's Law - 90% of everything is crap, especially when we're talking about things are creative. Most websites are crap, and most articles on the Internet are crap. Dig past the first page or so of Google to see the real winners.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

          We're all hustlers then? LOL Trying to shove "crap" to people and take their money
          It's a simple matter of time.

          Assume you have a large number of people who all want to create a product or service they can sell.

          The ones creating a quality product or service will take ten or more times as long to create it.

          Because the rest of those people can create a crap product or service really fast.

          So even if the majority of the people are trying to produce quality, the majority of the offerings are still going to be crap. There will always be several times as much crap.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetMarketingIQ
    Should Boeing stop selling airplanes and start selling airline tickets? Absolutes mean nothing.
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  • Profile picture of the author l3vi501
    That is correct on running your own business, not selling other peoples products. From a business owner standpoint affiliates do all the work and build up the business, while the owner continues to "service" the customers. promoters are forgotten the very second someone clicks that link or not. Sure they get most of the earnings on the sale of the product, however the returning customer goes to the business not the affiliate.

    What got my attention on this thread was the title to "STOP selling products and start offering services". Really what you want to do is stop selling other peoples products and start selling your own products, you don't want to be in a service based business as it has the lowest margins in any sector.

    Case in point a company that does SEO for clients, and another company that provides SEO software. The service company has a direct man to service cost (COGS as in Cost Of Goods Sold) that they can not hedge around, however the software company has a unlimited ceiling as far as growth and earnings because the COGS reduce as more products are sold. Keep that in mind. Build one site and make it successful, then you can build another one. But never own more than 5 unless you really think you know what you are doing.

    I owned 50 some sites back in the day and made beer money each month. I dropped all but one and turned that beer money into a very nice career. I have never owned or been in a partnership of more than 5 sites/businesses since them days, and if I cross over that magic number I sell one.
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  • Profile picture of the author FriendlyRob
    Whenever I see a thread that begins with a question "How can I make quick money in IM" at least 80% of the answers are to provide some kind of service. It seems to me that some kind of balance is in order.

    Build a website, teach others to build a website, build a website for others, instantly 3 different income streams. Few will deny that multiple income streams, combined with some kind of autopilot income is the key to earning an online living.
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    • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
      I get your point, I see what you are saying... and I agree with you.

      This relates to digital products. People often believe that their digital products are solid, and will generate an income at a steady level or increase for a long long time. This is untrue. Your income will increase and decrease almost on a curve. It will increase, increase, increase, reach a short term flat line, and then decrease. The level it decreases depends on many factors. Age, how it is being shared, seasonal, value, etc. Why do most big name marketers stop being able to actually sell their product for $500-$3,000, and within a short amount of time, is selling it for peanuts..?

      As someone who sells physical products, I know that I have to be careful at how much of a product I buy and plan on reselling. Eventually what I buy, will become unwanted by consumers.

      Oh, and Boeing is more of a Service than you think.

      To offer a service is to build a business. Most of us get swept up by the lifestyle of internet marketing, but its building a business that offers SERVICE as its product is what it's all about. If you own a restaurant, selling a burger isn't as important as selling quality service. Eventually someone can get a better tasting burger probably for half the price, it's the service that you are selling. It's the service that represents someone or something.
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  • Profile picture of the author divineman
    I think offering service and product online should complement one another. Product can offer quick cash while service can be long time investment atimes.
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  • Profile picture of the author cpa-money
    very true i have 26 sites and its really hard to keep them up. this is why i moved to automatic blogs. hope it will be much easier
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  • Profile picture of the author Chucks Ihebuzor
    Great insights!

    My opinion is to be open to different proven methods (products and services ), test and get results, and from there you can make an informed decision as to which method(s) to mainly go for.

    Different things work for different people!

    To your success,
    Chucks
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  • Profile picture of the author zoobie
    Service actually has a higher value. But a product can be the front end of the whole business model.

    Just like when you are giving away some valuable content for free, you are already creating value with your subscribers. Then you upsell them to small price product, then a higher price product, a home study course, seminar, a "do it for you solution" etc

    The higher end I think always has to be a service... This is what most gurus are doing actually.

    Thanks to Doug Barger (one of the master copywriter) gave me that important note.
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  • Profile picture of the author kyhell
    I think that the end result for either method involves the same amount of work.
    the mass micro site can be more work in the end though.
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  • Profile picture of the author RLfan
    People need both products AND services. So telling people to stop selling products is like telling people to kill the supply of a huge demand.
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  • Profile picture of the author Erica Leggette
    This is something that hit me a few weeks ago. Services are more in demand than products, I think. Most People would rather someone do something for them than to buy a product that they would have to take action on themselves. (I'm guilty of that at times)

    The day a relationship rebuilding product offer the service of sending love texts, love notes, romantic emails, etc to the gf/bf, they will be able to retire in month 1.
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    Be easy.


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