Why I Prefer Confirmed Opt-In

44 replies
Call me crazy, but I prefer using confirmed opt-in for my mailing lists. Here is why:

Deliverability

If they receive the confirmation eMail and reply to it to confirm their subscription, I know that were at least able to receive the first message from the list. That hopefully bodes well for future messages getting through. Without a confirmation, I really don't know if they are actually receiving my messages or if they will just be accumulating in a junk folder or getting deleted before they reach the recipient.

Actionability

If a user goes through the steps of confirming their subscription, I know that they are willing to take action on things. That increases the likelihood that they will become (or remain) paying customers.

Accountability

By confirming their subscription, I have documentation that they really did request to be on the list. From a web form, all I know is someone filled out a web form using an eMail address. Can't be sure that it was the submitter's real eMail address! But, when someone gets an eMail confirmation and confirm their subscription, I know that the owner of the eMail address did, in fact, want to be on the list.

Some people refer to confirmed opt-in as "double opt-in" but that can be a misnomer. As mentioned, you really have no idea who is entering an eMail address into a web form. Most of the time it probably is the person whose eMail address it is. Sometimes, it may not be. It may be someone using it as a fake address; it may be someone playing pranks on their friends, or enemies. You just don't know.

With a confirmation, you know.

Lessened Chance of Spam Reports

You're never going to be able to complete eliminate spam reports, regardless of how clean and legitimately you run your list. Some people will hit the "Report as Spam" button just because they didn't like the content of a particular message. But, confirmed opt-in can reduce some incidents of spam reports.

As previously mentioned, you really don't know who is filling out a web form. Without confirmed opt-in, anyone submitting an eMail address gets added to your list, and begins receiving messages from you.

But, you may say, they can just unsubscribe at any time! However, if people start receiving messages they didn't request to receive, will they unsubscribe or simply report it as spam? I don't know about you, but if I get messages from a list I know I did not subscribe to, I do not unsubscribe. Hitting the unsubscribe link just lets the spammers know they've gotten a live one! So, instead it just gets marked, reported and junked as spam.

So, that unsubscribe link is not going to save you if, for example, one of your competitors subscribed a number of people through your web form and you start getting reported as a spammer because none of those recipients actually opted-in to your list.

Maybe I'm going against the grain here, but I don't see any problem with using confirmed opt-in and, in my opinion, the benefits outweigh any downsides.
#confirmed #optin #prefer
  • Profile picture of the author tkulzer
    Great post Dan! We spend so much time trying to get thru to clients about this, it's
    absolutely the only way to make sure you're only sending email to those who
    requested it.

    Another thing to keep in mind regarding fake email addresses... Comment spam bots
    that appears on blog comments fill out any form on a website they can find. This
    includes opt-in forms that end up with bogus email addresses by the dozens or
    addresses that don't belong to them but belong to other real users who didn't
    request your stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Bainbridge
    Also, if youre using something like Aweber which charge you for your list size then you will be paying more, for the same result really - as your list is 70% people who don't really have full commitment to being on it in the first place anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by submp3s View Post

      as your list is 70% people who don't really have full commitment to being on it in the first place anyway.
      Care to share a source for this statistic?

      I'm not being facetious, it's just that I hear this kind of figure discussed quite a lot in these debates...

      In the daily running of my business, I see the pros and cons of double and single opt-in, using both of them for different situations.

      And not once have I ever felt like a high percentage of the single opt-ins have been ignoring the mail.

      Jay

      p.s. Great post, Dan. You do hit on some good points and I can see why you share those thoughts..
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    Why I Prefer Single-Optin:

    It makes me more money. Period.

    More people on my list means more responses. I've never had an issue with spam reports or deliverability.

    Notice how all the "gurus" that were pushing confirmed-optin 4 years ago have all switched to single-optin and services that allow it? They figured it out.

    I use one of the "name" autoresponder companies and have multiple lists with tens of thousands of subscribers.
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    • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      Why I Prefer Single-Optin:

      It makes me more money. Period.

      More people on my list means more responses. I've never had an issue with spam reports or deliverability.

      Notice how all the "gurus" that were pushing confirmed-optin 4 years ago have all switched to single-optin and services that allow it? They figured it out.

      I use one of the "name" autoresponder companies and have multiple lists with tens of thousands of subscribers.

      This reminds me of a similar debate: should i take the name too or just the email?

      If before they "pro" argument was that if you take the name, you can send a more personalized e-mail and they'll connect with you better, now they say they've grown tired of them.

      I don't believe Americans are growing reticent to emails that have their name in the subject (except probably for the "make money online niche").
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  • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
    Forgive my ignorance but how does one e-mail that got to a subscriber's inbox guarantee that subsequent ones will do the same?
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ovidiu View Post

      Forgive my ignorance but how does one e-mail that got to a subscriber's inbox guarantee that subsequent ones will do the same?
      It doesn't. That's why Dan said it "hopefully bodes well" instead of anything about a guarantee.

      It's usually a good idea to actually read the post before you start asking questions. You know, as a general rule.
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      • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
        And what would make me at least hope that there is a connection between the first and second email? Unless of course you send the guy 2 mails / day in which case you're toast.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by ovidiu View Post

          And what would make me at least hope that there is a connection between the first and second email?
          A general disbelief in nihilism as an accurate life philosophy?

          On the other hand, maybe you're German.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Dan, you were either reading my mind or scouring through my notes.

            What he said folks.

            Yeah, I know unconfirmed opt in means more money...until somebody blows
            your list apart with some bot and gets your account closed with some
            outrageous spam complaint percentage.

            Sorry, not worth the risk in my book.
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            • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              I know unconfirmed opt in means more money...
              No it doesn't... It only makes more money when it is the better option in terms of R.O.I.

              until somebody blows
              your list apart with some bot and gets your account closed with some
              outrageous spam complaint percentage.
              A bit extreme, no?

              Sorry, not worth the risk in my book.
              You are creating a risk in your own mind, one that most people never have to worry about, let alone think about when making their decision about single/double opt-in.

              I'm not saying anything against double opt-in, I use it plenty.. I'm just pointing out some stuff so people can see more than one perspective.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by JayXtreme View Post

                No it doesn't... It only makes more money when it is the better option in terms of R.O.I.



                A bit extreme, no?



                You are creating a risk in your own mind, one that most people never have to worry about, let alone think about when making their decision about single/double opt-in.

                I'm not saying anything against double opt-in, I use it plenty.. I'm just pointing out some stuff so people can see more than one perspective.

                If people want to use single opt-in, no problem. I prefer to be on the
                cautious side.
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            • Profile picture of the author LB
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Dan, you were either reading my mind or scouring through my notes.

              What he said folks.

              Yeah, I know unconfirmed opt in means more money...until somebody blows
              your list apart with some bot and gets your account closed with some
              outrageous spam complaint percentage.

              Sorry, not worth the risk in my book.
              This is illogical.

              Let's say you use confirmed-optin, a "spambot" attacks your form with random email addresses...all those email addresses are still going to get hit with "please confirm" messages and then those people will report THAT message as spam.

              Whenever I ran confirmed-optin I've always been amazed that the number one email that generates complaints is the initially "confirm" email.

              If you're really afraid of spambots then you'd want to use a CAPTCHA. No one does that though because it would murder conversions.

              Don't you think guys like Kern, Reese, etc. are targets for these kinds of attacks? They still go with single-optin in every recent launch I've seen.
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by LB View Post

                Let's say you use confirmed-optin, a "spambot" attacks your form with random email addresses...all those email addresses are still going to get hit with "please confirm" messages and then those people will report THAT message as spam.
                However, the ones who don't are never going to get another email, so they don't get a second chance to report you for spam. So you still get fewer spam complaints on double-optin.
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                • Profile picture of the author LB
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  However, the ones who don't are never going to get another email, so they don't get a second chance to report you for spam. So you still get fewer spam complaints on double-optin.
                  Even so, most autoresponder services are going to want to see a spam complaint rate of like .01% or less.

                  If a spambot hits your form even with confirmed-optin enabled you'll quickly break that percentage and will likely lose your account. No need to worry about followup messages at that point.

                  I'm not totally against confirmed-optin, but I only use it for maybe 5% of my lists.

                  My single-optin experiences have been overwhelmingly positive and profitable.

                  It's just the same as confirmed-optin. Provide your list with what they expect, and complaints will be virtually nil.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                    Originally Posted by LB View Post

                    If a spambot hits your form even with confirmed-optin enabled you'll quickly break that percentage and will likely lose your account.
                    If you can have either a 98% chance of getting shut down or a 96% chance of being shut down - which one do you want?
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                    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by LB View Post

                This is illogical.

                Let's say you use confirmed-optin, a "spambot" attacks your form with random email addresses...all those email addresses are still going to get hit with "please confirm" messages and then those people will report THAT message as spam.

                Whenever I ran confirmed-optin I've always been amazed that the number one email that generates complaints is the initially "confirm" email.

                If you're really afraid of spambots then you'd want to use a CAPTCHA. No one does that though because it would murder conversions.

                Don't you think guys like Kern, Reese, etc. are targets for these kinds of attacks? They still go with single-optin in every recent launch I've seen.

                You run your business your way and I'll run mine my way.
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            • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Dan, you were either reading my mind or scouring through my notes.

              What he said folks.

              Yeah, I know unconfirmed opt in means more money...until somebody blows
              your list apart with some bot and gets your account closed with some
              outrageous spam complaint percentage.

              Sorry, not worth the risk in my book.
              One thing -- now while I'm not sure how often it is done 'now', I do know that that is precisely what some competitors did about 5 years ago.

              It was big fun & games. Not necessarily just to increase the spam complaint percentage, etc, but to fill the list with so much junk (that looked like legitimate e-mails, etc) -- that the list owner would have difficulty sorting through the junk and finding out what real. (That including masking IP addresses, etc, so it couldn't simply be filtered that way).
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          • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            A general disbelief in nihilism as an accurate life philosophy?

            On the other hand, maybe you're German.
            Thank you, that is an irrefutable argument.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by ovidiu View Post

              Thank you, that is an irrefutable argument.
              And how, exactly, did you expect me to respond to your question about what could possibly give you hope?

              I don't know. Who the hell are you? Go away.
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              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author ovidiu
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                And how, exactly, did you expect me to respond to your question about what could possibly give you hope?

                I don't know. Who the hell are you? Go away.
                You don't have to answer a question if you don't have an answer to.

                Regarding my initial comment: it was adressed to the author of this topic.
                I wanted to know why he thinks that if an email gets to the inbox, the others will get there too, and how does this help the debate single versus double opt-in.

                Also, please stop swearing, I didn't curse when I wrote to you.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by ovidiu View Post

                  I wanted to know why he thinks that if an email gets to the inbox, the others will get there too, and how does this help the debate single versus double opt-in.
                  Okay, here's a little mental exercise for you. Try not to hurt yourself.

                  You send an email to Joe, and you don't know if he gets it or not.

                  You send an email to Bob, and he gets it and clicks a link in it.

                  Suddenly, the devil pops out of your computer and says you must now send an email to either Joe or Bob, and if they don't read your email he is going to take your soul to hell for all eternity.

                  Do you email Joe or Bob?
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                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    Okay, here's a little mental exercise for you. Try not to hurt yourself.

                    You send an email to Joe, and you don't know if he gets it or not.

                    You send an email to Bob, and he gets it and clicks a link in it.

                    Suddenly, the devil pops out of your computer and says you must now send an email to either Joe or Bob, and if they don't read your email he is going to take your soul to hell for all eternity.

                    Do you email Joe or Bob?
                    Hmmmmm ?

                    Email Bob

                    But i might just try to sneak in a BCC to joe, cause thats not really emailing him...Thats Just like sending him a copy of the memo out of politness
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  • Profile picture of the author Sco
    Great post! I ALWAYS go double opt-in. A spam issue can be disaster.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dietriffic
    What do you experienced folks make of this? Single Vs Double Opt-In – E-mail Marketing List Options
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  • Profile picture of the author jafris
    I am a newbie, and from what I have been studying and learning that monetization is the natural outcome of your relationship building exercise. Our focus should be towards building relationships than to keep on thinking about money!

    With single opt-in, you may have more responses, but you will not be able to build the much required relationship with your subscribers.

    Confirmed Opt-in is for those who are serious about relationship marketing

    This is just a beginning for me, and I am overwhelmed with the Power of Fear, which has done wonders for millions around the world!
    Simply amazing to transcend yourself into an ultimate world of freedom.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      LB,
      Whenever I ran confirmed-optin I've always been amazed that the number one email that generates complaints is the initially "confirm" email.
      Ummm... Well, yeah. If they didn't ask for it, they're going to treat that as spam. Whether they asked for it or not, they're less likely to treat mail subsequent to a confirmation as spam.

      That has exactly nothing to do with whether COI is a good thing or a bad thing.

      Keeping in mind that I use COI for all my lists at this point, I want to address one thing Dan said that's not necessarily accurate:
      If a user goes through the steps of confirming their subscription, I know that they are willing to take action on things. That increases the likelihood that they will become (or remain) paying customers.
      There have been plenty of examples of this being untrue for given lists. I believe it has more to do with the traffic sources, the conversion process and the follow-up, but the statement as made doesn't stand up to real-world measurements.

      I do not recommend playing with SOI, unless you're very good, and a low-profile target. But if you're that good, you can make the COI process work, so the point is somewhat moot.


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      • Profile picture of the author LB
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        LB,Ummm... Well, yeah. If they didn't ask for it, they're going to treat that as spam. Whether they asked for it or not, they're less likely to treat mail subsequent to a confirmation as spam.

        That has exactly nothing to do with whether COI is a good thing or a bad thing.
        Perhaps I'm painting that with a broad brush...but let me elaborate a bit.

        One of my lists is a customer-only list. To get to the signup form you've already paid me at the minimum $30 and logged into a member site to optin. This form still generates the most spam complaints for the initial confirmation mail compared to any other message.

        It's always amazed me, no matter how I word that initial email people flag it the most. I'm still talking about a fraction of a percent...but it's still the most reported as spam. It's been single optin for a couple years now and my spam complaints have actually dropped.

        I swear it's part of the "indecisive human condition". Ask a small segment of the population to confirm a decision and they freak out.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          LB,

          I don't put customer lists in the same category as free subscriber lists. (By customer, I mean "people who've given you actual cash money in exchange for something." Too many people call anyone who downloads a free book or something "customers.")

          Different issues. Still room for debate, but not the same things in my mind.


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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    I've been toying with something for a while...

    Lately, I've been considering having my "squeeze page" squeeze a download instead of an opt-in.

    Then the download has a link to the opt-in form at the end, but no promise of a freebie or anything.

    The opt-in form, in turn, also doesn't promise a freebie - but once you confirm, there of course is one.

    And then there's a bunch of content that doesn't even try to sell anything, just solid reliable free information.

    And at the END of that content, the subscriber gets moved to the list where you promote things. But until that series is finished, they get no pitches, no JV announcements, no affiliate links, NOTHING trying to get so much as a DIME of their money.

    But at the moment, I have this personal rule that nobody gets on my list unless they buy something, so I haven't tried it yet.
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  • Profile picture of the author cotum
    Great conversation that really made me think - here's my experience:

    When I used Sendfree a couple years back I used single opt-in.

    The past 2 years I've used GetResponse and used double opt-in.

    I've had MORE complaints with double opt-in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dietriffic
      Originally Posted by cotum View Post

      Great conversation that really made me think - here's my experience:

      When I used Sendfree a couple years back I used single opt-in.

      The past 2 years I've used GetResponse and used double opt-in.

      I've had MORE complaints with double opt-in.
      Have you tried to figure out why this is?

      Maybe it's due to the percentage of 'live' emails? i.e. single opt-in list full of dud email addresses who do not complain because they don't exist?
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
    I don't use anything but confirmed opt-in and I have no current intention of switching to single opt-in simply because I've never been sat on huge numbers of unconfirmed subscribers. I think the last time I looked, unconfirmed subs accounted for less than 0.5%.

    For those of you who use both systems, I'd really be interested in your decision making process - what circumstances have to prevail in order to choose SOI over COI or vice versa?

    Peter
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    • Profile picture of the author JayXtreme
      Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

      I don't use anything but confirmed opt-in and I have no current intention of switching to single opt-in simply because I've never been sat on huge numbers of unconfirmed subscribers. I think the last time I looked, unconfirmed subs accounted for less than 0.5%.

      For those of you who use both systems, I'd really be interested in your decision making process - what circumstances have to prevail in order to choose SOI over COI or vice versa?

      Peter
      To be honest....

      My very first thought when making this decision... is the technophobic nature of the niche, or lack of. If I think that confirmed opt-in is going to be an extra step for someone who isn't very computer literate... I will start with SOI, but test both options at some point.

      Factor in various other things to the testing afterwards, but my very first thought is for the niche and how they are likely to act when receiving content via e-mail.

      Jay
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      • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
        Hmm...

        Let's try some math for a minute, shall we?

        If a company touts it has a 97% deliverability, then that means in their estimation, 97 out of 100 emails sent will get to the inbox...

        That means 3 out of every 100 confirmation emails doesn't ever arrive to the subscriber.

        Next...let's talk about Open rates.

        Have you checked your stats lately?

        What is your average open rate for your last email promotion?

        20%...40%...80%...heck, let's say you're the greatest email marketer in America and get a 90% open rate...

        That would still put 10% of your messages in the Trash bin before being read.

        So now, that's 10 confirmation emails that never got opened.

        Then there is your CTR%... which is never 100% for any email, including your confirmation email.




        However
        , why does it have to be Double vs. Single Opt In?

        You can always use Single Opt-In with a "confirmation auto-responder series" and segment your lists.

        That way, you can send them more than one "confirmation message" to make sure that they have had more than one chance to opt in.

        In fact, when you stack enough of those % together...you get closer to that 100% mark.

        Cheers,
        Jack Duncan
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Jack,
          You can always use Single Opt-In with a "confirmation auto-responder series" and segment your lists.

          That way, you can send them more than one "confirmation message" to make sure that they have had more than one chance to opt in.
          This is dangerous stuff. Get spotted doing it, no matter what your intentions, and it looks like spamming. A list should be either COI or not, and COI implies a single email to make sure the person asking for the subscription is the one who owns the address. Emails coming in after that, unless the user has confirmed, look very suspicious.

          There are ways to structure something with the same end result, but you don't want to do it with multiple confirmation messages. That's just asking for trouble.


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          • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
            There are ways to structure something with the same end result, but you don't want to do it with multiple confirmation messages. That's just asking for trouble.
            Sorry if this was confusing...

            I'm not talking about sending an actual confirmation email...like a double opt-in would normally get.

            I'm talking about creating an autoresponder series with a single opt-in list...and if the user doesn't click/open any emails after X mails...then "moving along"...

            You simply segment your lists based on Open rates...as opposed to the COI "1 shot and cross our fingers that it gets 1)delivered, 2) opened, and 3) clicked".

            Cheers,
            Jack
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  • Profile picture of the author matthewzinda
    This is a very interesting debate!

    I, personally, DO use confirmed opt-in!

    If you ask me, the people that confirm right away seem to be more enthused about what you have for them! But, that doesn't mean I completely ignore the people that have not confirmed!

    I send my unconfirmed opt-ins one, and only one, personal email, explaining the benefits of what I have for them, who I am, and why they should listen to me, then give them one more shot to confirm, and if they confirm, great; if not, next!

    That's just my opinion!

    Good luck!

    Matthew Zinda
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  • Profile picture of the author treysmith
    For me it depends on traffic source (and quality of traffic).

    With Viral traffic I go confirmed... also sometimes on front end traffic if it's from a broad traffic source (i.e. PPV)..

    If it's stuff like JV traffic and getting customer email address after they purchase, then I go with single optin.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dietriffic
    I'm in the health niche. I pull my hair out due to the enormity of my unconfirmed submissions.

    Aweber make it difficult to get an exact percentage (can anyone help me with figuring out how to find out this number??) but I know it's huge!! I'm guessing 30% or so.

    I'm very tempted to try SIO.
    Signature

    — Melanie (RD)

    Weight loss/fitness marketers earn 75% per sale with... The Fat Reversal Formula
    Join me: Twitter and Facebook

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    • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
      Originally Posted by Dietriffic View Post

      I'm in the health niche. I pull my hair out due to the enormity of my unconfirmed submissions.

      Aweber make it difficult to get an exact percentage (can anyone help me with figuring out how to find out this number??) but I know it's huge!! I'm guessing 30% or so.

      I'm very tempted to try SIO.
      With your chosen list selected, go to the 'Subscribers' tab, click 'Search'

      Leaving the View Segment as 'All Subscribers' select the following from the first search string:

      'Verification status' 'is' 'Unverified'

      Click 'Search'

      The results will show the unverified optins, both live and expired. It's then a simple case of working out what percentage is this segment of your total list.

      Peter
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      • Profile picture of the author Dietriffic
        Originally Posted by Peter Bestel View Post

        With your chosen list selected, go to the 'Subscribers' tab, click 'Search'

        Leaving the View Segment as 'All Subscribers' select the following from the first search string:

        'Verification status' 'is' 'Unverified'

        Click 'Search'

        The results will show the unverified optins, both live and expired. It's then a simple case of working out what percentage is this segment of your total list.

        Peter
        Thanks for the reply, Peter.

        That seems to pull up a list of those who did verify, but unsubscribed immediately after getting my ebook and only received one email. The 'Last follow up' is '1' not 'Confirmation'.

        Or maybe I'm totally mixed up.

        If I search for 'Stop Status' 'is' 'Sent Verification/No Reply Received' then it seems to bring up the right list, but it's only for the last 30 days.
        Signature

        — Melanie (RD)

        Weight loss/fitness marketers earn 75% per sale with... The Fat Reversal Formula
        Join me: Twitter and Facebook

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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
    Dietriffic,

    Mmm, on closer inspection I see what you mean. Probably best to open a support ticket at AWeber to get the definitive answer.

    Peter
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  • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
    I use single opt in and receive the date, time, subscription url address, ip, name and email address

    emailed to me to handle all the accountability.

    For those who didn't know this was possible but want to use single to make more money,

    all you need to do is look for the field where you can enter an email address
    for aweber (if you're using aweber) to send you notification on new leads immediately upon subscription.

    I've been doing this for quite awhile now and have never had any problems.

    Best part is, I know no one can pull any of the false spam complaint shenanigans
    because their ip address, url they subscribed from, date and proof of their subscription agreeing to the terms of receiving advertisements they requested from me is right there in both my own business records and the list management service provider's too.

    Hope this helps
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