Is Leeching Vids Actually Black-Hat

14 years ago

Is it illegal to steal something from someone who stole it from someone else?

Yes, leeching of any kind is considered black hat.

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VegasGreg

14 years ago

Define leeching. That word can be taken/implied several ways.

If you refer to taking someones video and using it as your own, that is just plain illegal.

If it is on Youtube (or similar) and you simply use the embed code on your site, that is ok. You can surround the video with your own stuff.

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JayPeete

14 years ago

Whenever you are walking a fine line, you pretty much know that you are on the wrong side...

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timpears

14 years ago

I had no idea what the hell 'leaching videos' was until I read this thread. Now I know that 'leaching' is just a fancy word for stealing. Odd.

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BeenThereDoneThat

14 years ago

I believe Frank Bruno said once that any video up on Youtube is fair game and can be copied at will. He's supposed to be an expert on Video Marketing, now I'll have to go back through all of my Ebooks to find it. Most of the WSOs I bought on Youtube marketing have had some kind of "borrowing" included. I wonder if, now that we are observing rule7, we will continue to see the same leeching, borrowing, stealing, copying methods in future WSOs.
Most of the writers of the WSOs were leeching from others as well IMHO.
Stef

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BrainCopy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat

I believe Frank Bruno said once that any video up on Youtube is fair game and can be copied at will. He's supposed to be an expert on Video Marketing, now I'll have to go back through all of my Ebooks to find it. Most of the WSOs I bought on Youtube marketing have had some kind of "borrowing" included. I wonder if, now that we are observing rule7, we will continue to see the same leeching, borrowing, stealing, copying methods in future WSOs.
Most of the writers of the WSOs were leeching from others as well IMHO.
Stef

I think I would still have to confront Youtube. Or which ever company that owns the video.

If your thinking about "leeching" a video as a review or for whatever your needs are, just ask the owner. It's not worth getting in trouble over something as small as an 8 minute video.

Best Regards,
UFG

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VegasGreg

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat

I believe Frank Bruno said once that any video up on Youtube is fair game and can be copied at will. He's supposed to be an expert on Video Marketing, now I'll have to go back through all of my Ebooks to find it. Most of the WSOs I bought on Youtube marketing have had some kind of "borrowing" included. I wonder if, now that we are observing rule7, we will continue to see the same leeching, borrowing, stealing, copying methods in future WSOs.
Most of the writers of the WSOs were leeching from others as well IMHO.
Stef

Originally Posted by PCKen

Youtube is pretty pesky about what is Copyright and what isn't. If it managed to stay on youtube it is fair game to use/reupload and embed imo.

Follow that advice and you will get sued.

You can use the embed code to display the video as-is wherever you want. (If the video has the sharing option enabled)

If you copy it (download it) and re-upload it as your own, you are committing a crime. No ifs, ands or buts. Stealing is stealing.

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Gail Sober

14 years ago

Anyone posting videos has these two options

===========

Embedding

Yes, external sites may embed and play this video.

No, external sites may NOT embed and play this video.

===========

If there is an embed link on the video page then the author consents to you embedding it on your site

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metas 14 years ago

Fantastic responses guys, some very passionate... and quite certain!

I'm trying to figure out what the truth/reality is (as I'd rather choose not to do this for reasons that are accurate), so maybe we could digress for just a moment and try to get clear on a couple things, so those with an already set opinion, perhaps I could encourage you to look at the question and not rush to the conclusion...

So, with the thinking that "stealing" another person's "stolen" video is wrong (certainly logical!), then we must take the position with that line of thinking that the everyday good-natured people that perhaps innocently or at least unwittingly upload copyrighted material (CNN broadcasts, Sports Center clips, blooper reals, et al), which accounts for perhaps 30% of the videos on YouTube (at a minimum), are thiefs and "criminals" themselves. I don't see how you can have one without the other. So, would you consider this assessment accurate?

I'll leave it with that one long drawn-out question for the moment, and see what your thoughts are.

Best, James

p.s. personally I think there is something "wrong" and to be avoided with leeching tactics, but I'm not convinced it is what and for the reasons that most people think. So, my theory is if we can figure out precisely what is "wrong" then everything else becomes an option or a tool. Just a theory.
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R Hagel

14 years ago

Holy crap, there sure is some bad advice/information in this thread.

James, it doesn't matter what other people do. It doesn't matter what they get away with. Just because someone may or may not get away with something doesn't make it ok for you to do it too.

If you want to know if something is ok, it's pretty simple: Ask the person who created the video (the original copyright holder). Tell them what you want to do with the video. Then ask for their permission to do it.

That's your answer.

Beyond that... check the TOS of applicable sites and, if needed and/or still in doubt, consult a lawyer.

Cheers,
Becky

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travlinguy

14 years ago

I love threads like this. Let's see... I re-define the word theft with leeching. Yeah... that really clouds the issue. So, I haven't stolen anything, I've just taken someone else's work without paying and used it to make money. And... as long as I've leeched it and not actually broken into your house to get it, it's okay. But hold on...

It could be okay if the person who posted the video in question actually leeched... er, stole it first. Okay, the conscience I was issued at birth isn't all too bothered when I know I wasn't the first person to leech this information. I guess theft isn't as bad when you're stealing from a thief.

But there's even more mumbo jumbo to be had here... It must be okay to steal someone's property if my intent in using stolen videos is only for personal use and not to resell. That would be like leeching a carton of cigs at the 711 while the clerk's back is turned and then just smoking them all yourself rather that selling individual packs to bargain hunters.

There's gotta be something seriously missing in our society when people have to ask others if it's okay to steal as long as you don't use the word steal.

No wonder this country is circling the drain...

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HeySal

14 years ago

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I have wasted so much money buying stuff, when all I had to do is wait for someone to steal something and mug them for it when they leave the store. Damned.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

There are now about 5 active threads on the Warrior Forum asking about is stealing this or pirating that OK to do?

It's just out of control ... the people who have to ask if it's ok to steal. You don't come in to the WF and ask if it's OK to shoplift at the mall, but anything to with Internet Marketing seems to be fair game. Steal products, share products, steal videos, steal content ...

Just sad.

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metas

14 years ago

Wow, I'm surprised at the "passion" of the last few responses. I agree with them all, however all of them are missing my question - intentionally or unintentionally, I'm not sure.

I'm not asking if it's OK to leech or steal or whatever it is that you wish to call it. Let me try this one more time...

No one's really answered my questions and many have simply rushed to judgement, which tells me that the "answers" don't consider the information that leads to the conclusion. So, why doesn't someone answer these 2 questions...

Are the people that have innocently and/or unwittingly uploaded copyrighted material from their favourite TV show, movie or sport, criminals? Have they committed a crime? I'm not asking if it is OK for me to do it because others have, as some have suggested. Just answer the darn question please.

And then, should YouTube simply delete the copyrighted uploaded videos (which constitute perhaps 25-50% of all the videos on YouTube) tonight because of that? And should these people be sued and/or prosecuted?

By the way, I'm not asking for advice, permission, justifications, judgments or conclusions - in fact, I don't want any of them. I'm asking for thoughts and ideas. More than a few have seen this as an opportunity to preach, admonish and condemn... and that's unfortunate.

Copyright laws are very complicated and you know what... they're archaic and changing very quickly... at least the view on them is changing quickly. In 5-10 years even the big corporations will likely greatly ease and/or eliminate their rigid positions on "sharing" copyrighted material. Inidividuals like David Scott Meerman (Viral Marketing Consultant) now counsel the larger corporations on the fact that a) the "sharing" copyrighted materials is absolutely impossible to stop or even significantly curb and (more to the point) b) why the hell would you want to?! His position which is totally accurate is that a) the people that are "sharing" content are often their biggest customers (do you really want to sue and prosecute your customers... en masse?!) and b) these people are essentially marketing your products and promoting your services often in a viral way that has zero cost and can often be exponentially more effective than multi-million dollar campaigns. Disney just recently leaked some "copyrighted" material on one of their new rides to 8 bloggers who spread it to almost 100 million people in less than 48 hours. I mean, are the trailers of Iron Man 2 that have been "stolen" and uploaded to YouTube "illegally" making more or less people aware of Iron Man 2, and subsequently sell more or less tickets to view the movie?! I mean, wtf, come on here.

Once again, let me be clear, I'm not asking for advice and not looking for justifications. I'm merely trying to understand what people are actually doing and what constitutes a legitimate violation. I'm not sure why so many of you are rushing to the end with these elaborate judgements without first stopping for just a second to see if there's an interesting thought in there somewhere.

But, it's cool, I like the dialogue. I only wish for those first two questions to be answered, without all the thoughts before and after. Who's got what it takes?!

Awesome, thanks, James

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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by metas

Are the people that have innocently and/or unwittingly uploaded copyrighted material from their favourite TV show, movie or sport, criminals? Have they committed a crime? I'm not asking if it is OK for me to do it because others have, as some have suggested. Just answer the darn question please.

Shame posts require 10 letters, Yes and Yes to the other...

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metas

14 years ago

OK, let me give you an example...

If I uploaded the "Top Gun" movie trailer and then put a link in the description box pointing to the official webage at Paramount Pictures, what could be the complaint be? And if you can figure out a complaint, why would there be a complaint if I am promoting awareness of the product and perhaps even assisting in selling the product? I'm not streaming the entire movie or sending someone to an offshore server and offering a pirated version for immediate download at $5. I mean, seriously, does anyone see that there is an interesting consideration here. Or is it completely drowned out by the rantings of major corporations on the "black and white" issue of copyright (and even patents). I think that the laws and the interpretations of the laws should be a little less rigid. And that's why I wrote about them changing in the previous, because many major corporations are waking up to the fact that a "black and white" interpretation of these laws and handling them with iron fists often with their very own customers is not wise re" public relations and is actually contrary to their best interests and their bottom lines.

Now, as an affiliate marketer, using this same example of an uploaded trailer of Top Gun, if I was to point the link to the product on Amazon is this not the same as I am again promoting awareness of the product and actually selling a legitimate copy of said product?

Anyone willing to open up a little and consider this. If not, that's cool; perhaps the conversation is a few years ahead of it's time :confused:! If so, no big deal.

Best, James

p.s. I understand that giving an inch on this may allow some people to take a mile and I understand that many of you might not be willing to risk that - I get it. So, I'm not judging you back

.

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butters 14 years ago

Let me give you a real world example...

Is it ok to steal a car?

Is it ok to steal a car while drunk? (You are unaware of what is happening)
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Johnny Slater

14 years ago

The complaint would be that you do not own the movie trailer and you have no right to post it anywhere, for any reason.

Just because there are others out there that do it does not make it right. You have made it clear you don't want honest answers but want someone to agree with you so that you can ease your mind about doing something that you already know is wrong.

Originally Posted by metas

OK, let me give you an example...

If I uploaded the "Top Gun" movie trailer and then put a link in the description box pointing to the official webage at Paramount Pictures, what could be the complaint be?

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travlinguy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by metas

OK, let me give you an example...

If I uploaded the "Top Gun" movie trailer and then put a link in the description box pointing to the official webage at Paramount Pictures, what could be the complaint be? And if you can figure out a complaint, why would there be a complaint if I am promoting awareness of the product and perhaps even assisting in selling the product? I'm not streaming the entire movie or sending someone to an offshore server and offering a pirated version for immediate download at $5. I mean, seriously, does anyone see that there is an interesting consideration here. Or is it completely drowned out by the rantings of major corporations on the "black and white" issue of copyright (and even patents). I think that the laws and the interpretations of the laws should be a little less rigid. And that's why I wrote about them changing in the previous, because many major corporations are waking up to the fact that a "black and white" interpretation of these laws and handling them with iron fists often with their very own customers is not wise re" public relations and is actually contrary to their best interests and their bottom lines.

Now, as an affiliate marketer, using this same example of an uploaded trailer of Top Gun, if I was to point the link to the product on Amazon is this not the same as I am again promoting awareness of the product and actually selling a legitimate copy of said product?

Anyone willing to open up a little and consider this. If not, that's cool; perhaps the conversation is a few years ahead of it's time :confused:! If so, no big deal.

Best, James

p.s. I understand that giving an inch on this may allow some people to take a mile and I understand that many of you might not be willing to risk that - I get it. So, I'm not judging you back

.

You're hopeless. I wish you great succes in making a fortune from the efforts of others without giving anything back in return...

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metas 14 years ago

@travlinguy | I really don't appreciate your tone, I'm just trying to figure this out. If it upsets you so, you can just ignore me. However, I can appreciate that you feel this is a "black and white" issue. Please tell me how you feel about someone uploading a trailer and sending traffic to the production house (without any affiliation), as I mentioned in the previous post. So, the scenario is basically someone that is just honouring the movie and unwittingly assisting in the promotion of the movie, as I feel is happening quite a lot at YouTube. Would you feel that this is as grievous as a flagrant use of copyrighted material with the intention of profiting personally?

@Johnny Slater | I understand your pawn shop analogy, but that really doesn't apply to what I'm trying to get as (example provided just below your post). Perhaps you could add to your thought with that example in mind.

I'm really not trying to justify anything. I'm actually mostly a student of viral marketing principles, so I'm involved with a bunch of people that are teaching corps. to understand its principles and relax their positions on copyright to allow for things to go viral. Most often the corps. stand in the way of their own marketing campaigns by not allowing any type of distribution or sharing for things as "harmless" as movie trailers. It is truly self-defeating, for product awareness and subsequent profits. But, I can understand how this might be viewed as me looking for a justification or illegitimate loophole. I can only say I'm not.

In spite of having more thoughts on this (I can hear a lot of sighs out there, lol) I think I might have run out of steam on this as I didn't expect this to upset so many, and it bothers me that I've angered so many .

Best, James
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- butters 14 years ago
  
  Ok lets dumb this down to it's most simplest form... Taking other peoples content and distributing it is illegal. It becomes legal when the owner of said content says that you can distribute/sell/use etc...
  
  It is as black and white as that, the owner must give you permission in some way to use their stuff...
  
  If you do use their stuff illegally, it is then up to the owner to file the correct papers to get you to stop. Not all companies do because you are helping them in some way, hense why you see 100's of the same trailors on you tube... So if it benefits the company in some way, they will look past it but they still have the right to yank that content down when ever they like...
  
  Understand?
  
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Johnny Slater 14 years ago

This has been answered over and over. Stealing is stealing, regardless of how it's done, what degree its done, who is doing it, or why it was done.

If you go to a pawn shop and buy a radio that was stolen by someone else and sold to the pawn shop, then your guilty of buying stolen goods. It doesn't matter if you didn't actually steal it yourself, you are still breaking the law.

Leeching is leeching no matter how it is done or how many people have leeched it from someone else. It does sound like you are trying to rationalize something here, but there is no way to spin it to make it ok.

Originally Posted by metas

I'm not asking if it is OK for me to do it because others have, as some have suggested. Just answer the darn question please.
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travlinguy

14 years ago

"Are the people that have innocently and/or unwittingly uploaded copyrighted material from their favourite TV show, movie or sport, criminals? Have they committed a crime? I'm not asking if it is OK for me to do it because others have, as some have suggested. Just answer the darn question please."

Your attitude is disturbing. The answer is yes. And it doesn't matter if people have stolen someone else’s work unwittingly or intentionally. Stealing is stealing. And it doesn't matter how confusing you feel the laws are, stealing is still stealing.

How is it that people are so freakin' stupid as to not know that they can't claim or own or benefit from the hard work of someone else and call it their own? How is it that we've drifted so far into the abyss that people somehow feel they are entitled to benefit where they haven’t contributed?

Regardless of your ridiculous posturing, you're looking for justification for stealing. The majority of people starting threads like this are doing the same. I wouldn't give a rat's ass as to how many laws are passed saying it's okay to take someone's property and call it your own... for any damned purpose! It's stealing and always will be.

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E. Fire 14 years ago

1.Are the people that have innocently and/or unwittingly uploaded copyrighted material from their favourite TV show, movie or sport, criminals? Have they committed a crime? I'm not asking if it is OK for me to do it because others have, as some have suggested. Just answer the darn question please.

Yes.

2. And then, should YouTube simply delete the copyrighted uploaded videos (which constitute perhaps 25-50% of all the videos on YouTube) tonight because of that?

They do when it is brought to their attention or when asked by media companies, some of which have a standing request on file that their material be protected. Accounts are sometimes deleted entirely, even in cases where musicians have published videos of themselves performing cover songs. Whether they should - as you phrased the question above - is not up to me, it's up to the authorities and copyright holders.

3. And should these people be sued and/or prosecuted?

That's really not up to me. It's up to the copyright holders and the authorities.
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E. Fire

14 years ago

"If I uploaded the "Top Gun" movie trailer and then put a link in the description box pointing to the official webage at Paramount Pictures, what could be the complaint be? And if you can figure out a complaint, why would there be a complaint if I am promoting awareness of the product and perhaps even assisting in selling the product?"

This has been a common misunderstanding since at least 1996 when I first started doing websites and kids thought it was OK to "borrow" photographer's work or writer's content to repost on their own sites so long as they posted a link back to the source.

IANAL but the law here is pretty straightforward. The law, is that regardless of your intent, the material is not your property, it is the property of the copyright holder, and cannot be re-used by anyone without permission from the copyright holder - ie, the property owner - any more than I can come use your car without your knowledge or permission, even if I find it unlocked with the key in the ignition, to go pick your kids up from school.

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travlinguy

14 years ago

metas...
Guess what? I'm not here to kiss your ass and I don't appreciate your tone. Why? Because you're looking for something for nothing. Period. There's no debate here. It is black and white. And it doesn't matter what the law says.

If things go the way you want and people end up having their way with the property of others, then the production of that type of property will cease to exist.

That's always what happens with a BS 'sharing' arrangement. The people who produce have no incentive to produce because they get no benefit from their efforts. That’s because people like you chisel them out of their benefit while having no true effort involved in the endeavor other than being clever enough to know what property is ripe for stealing.

There was a really great example of this whole concept in American history. It was called slavery. It seems that about 150 years ago the majority of folks here in America though it was a pretty cool idea to own human beings.

And the majority agreed. Sound familiar? So people benefited from stealing the efforts of others, in a big way. Perhaps the example is a bit dramatic but the principle is the same. Get my drift here?

Even though the idea was popular and even sanctioned by law, it violated a greater law, God's law... And that's what this is all about. YOU CAN'T TAKE THE PROPERTY OR THE EFFORTS OF OTHERS, OR THE HEART AND SOUL OF SOMEONE ELSE'S LABOR AND REALIZE A PROFIT FROM IT WITHOUT COMPENSATING THEM. IF YOU DO, YOU'VE ROBBED THEM… AND THAT MAKES YOU A THIEF. AND A THIEF IS A CRIMINAL. Got it? There’s the answer to your idiotic opening question.

I don't expect you to understand or agree. But to me, people like you are the ultimate enemy to free enterprise...

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Trivum

14 years ago

Is there no honor among thieves anymore?

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metas

14 years ago

@travlinguy | You've completely ignored my thoughts and question once again and launched into a rabid tirade. You keep talking about theft and robbery... where does that exist in the Top Gun example? Tie your opinions on this to that specific example... and tell me who got robbed. I really hope you don't feel the need to level even more accusations and judgments.

I understand what people are saying when they simply say "hey, copyright law says you must have permission. Period." They're right. But, this theft and robbery and on and on, what? I said from the beginning that I'm white hat, and that I'm just trying to understand. I don't actually do any of this stuff. That's what makes this so ridiculous. I'm being chastised and made to feel like a criminal for asking questions... and having never actually done anything wrong. What the what?!

James

p.s. do you think I'm more or less likely to "hear" you over your abusive responses. So, if you're trying to send a message to me, and all the others that read this, it'd be better served with a calm and precise explanation and presentation. I can't see how my thoughts, ideas and questions could ever warrant those responses, regardless of how "ignorant" you might feel that I am. Again, I'm much more likely to "cure" myself of this ignorance through words of encouragement than lashings of the tongue.

p.s.s. I think I might have to end this here, this is getting crazy.

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metas

14 years ago

So, one more question before I read the next 12 tongue lashings and just walk away:

Copyrighted material is copyrighted material no matter what form it's in, right? Many people have wanted to tell me that in many different ways in this thread (of course I know that, I'm trying to get to something deeper). So, as people have also said that this issue is "black and white", then I'll be very interested to hear those same people comment on this...

So, as an Amazon Associate (affiliate of Amazon), if I were to copy an image of Top Gun from Amazon and paste it into my site/blog and link it back to the DVD of Top Gun on Amazon, have I broken copyright law? A violation on copyright is a violation on copyright, doesn't matter whether it's a still or moving picture.

Thoughts?

James

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joetheseo

14 years ago

If this is the worst thing you do online then I promise your OK! I'm personally a white hat guy, but I've seen some crazy things!

I mean... how many videos on YouTube actually have a copyright??

Originally Posted by metas

So, one more question before I read the next 12 tongue lashings and just walk away:

Copyrighted material is copyrighted material no matter what form it's in, right? Many people have wanted to tell me that in many different ways in this thread (of course I know that, I'm trying to get to something deeper). So, as people have also said that this issue is "black and white", then I'll be very interested to hear those same people comment on this...

So, as an Amazon Associate (affiliate of Amazon), if I were to copy an image of Top Gun from Amazon and paste it into my site/blog and link it back to the DVD of Top Gun on Amazon, have I broken copyright law? A violation on copyright is a violation on copyright, doesn't matter whether it's a still or moving picture.

Thoughts?

James

Isn't a watermark kind of an image Copyright symbol?

I put images from Amazon on my site all the time... They've never said anything.

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Johnny Slater 14 years ago

Just because you have never been caught does not make it right, or legal.

Using your justification it would be ok to break into someones house and steal everything they own, as long as you dont get caught.

Originally Posted by joecrupie

I put images from Amazon on my site all the time... They've never said anything.
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- joetheseo 14 years ago
  
  I admit, the images on my sites are pulled FROM Amazon and still located on their servers.
  
  One time I did have an amazon affiliate manager help me with slow loading images (she looked at my site).. So it's obviously not illegal to put images on your site that are still stored on Amazon.
  
  Or maybe it's because I sell a ton of their products, who knows.
  
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  E. Fire 14 years ago
  
  "So, one more question before I read the next 12 tongue lashings"
  
  Interesting ....
  
  "So, as an Amazon Associate (affiliate of Amazon), if I were to copy an image of Top Gun from Amazon and paste it into my site/blog and link it back to the DVD of Top Gun on Amazon, have I broken copyright law? "
  
  All other things being equal, yes, because you are not the owner of the material. However, in most - not all - cases affiliates can use images from a merchant's site - according to the TOS - because they have been licensed for that purpose.If used outside of the merchant's TOS, then once again, it is up to the owner/merchant/license provider to decide whether or not to assert their rights. They may choose not to, but they certainly can if they wish.
  
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butters

14 years ago

Originally Posted by metas

So, one more question before I read the next 12 tongue lashings and just walk away:

Copyrighted material is copyrighted material no matter what form it's in, right? Many people have wanted to tell me that in many different ways in this thread (of course I know that, I'm trying to get to something deeper). So, as people have also said that this issue is "black and white", then I'll be very interested to hear those same people comment on this...

So, as an Amazon Associate (affiliate of Amazon), if I were to copy an image of Top Gun from Amazon and paste it into my site/blog and link it back to the DVD of Top Gun on Amazon, have I broken copyright law? A violation on copyright is a violation on copyright, doesn't matter whether it's a still or moving picture.

Thoughts?

James

Your probably find that Amazon owns the rights to them photos, maybe a deal with the film studio and maybe part of the agreement is to allow them to use their photos and able to pass them on to other associates. Amazon will then pass on them rights onto you which would be allowed because the original owner of the rights said it was fine. (or along them lines)

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Johnny Slater

14 years ago

When you sell videos as a retailer, such as Amazon does, you can get a Promotion Kit from the product owner, such as MGM Studios. These kits come with pre built promotion tools such as sales copy, articles, images, etc. As the actual reseller, which Amazon is, you have the right to use those tools in the manner set forth in the Promo Kit documentation.

That does not mean anyone can come to Amazons web site and copy those images just because Amazon is using them. Unless you are given specific right to use something by the actual copyright or trademark holder, you have no right to use it in any shape, form, or fashion. The only exception is the fair use clause in copyright, which means you can use small portions of a copyrighted work for product reviews and such.

Keep in mind that product review in this instance means objective review from a third party source that does not have anything to gain from the review.

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Chris Worner

14 years ago

Stealing is stealing, it does not matter what spin you put on it or how you justify it. Two wrongs dont make a right.

What I find a disturbing is that you are offering an email course in IM on your homepage in your signature. I sincerely hope you are not encouraging them to steal, let alone do anything else illegal.

But judging by your 'nobody understands me' mentality, hopes are not high.

I also wonder whether this whle thread is meant to be a troll thread to get people to see your signature.

Chris

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joetheseo

14 years ago

Originally Posted by skyfox7

Stealing is stealing, it does not matter what spin you put on it or how you justify it. Two wrongs dont make a right.

What I find a disturbing is that you are offering an email course in IM on your homepage in your signature. I sincerely hope you are not encouraging them to steal, let alone do anything else illegal.

But judging by your 'nobody understands me' mentality, hopes are not high.

I also wonder whether this whle thread is meant to be a troll thread to get people to see your signature.

Chris

I hope you're not serious... It's NOT stealing. You can go ask Amazon yourself.

"Hey Amazon, I was trying to sell your product, but the problem is I don't have a picture to use"

Do you REALLY think they're going to stop you from making them them sales??

Your bold claims are unnecessary, and I'm here to help people not troll.

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Chris Worner

14 years ago

Originally Posted by joecrupie

I hope you're not serious... It's NOT stealing. You can go ask Amazon yourself.

"Hey Amazon, I was trying to sell your product, but the problem is I don't have a picture to use"

Do you REALLY think they're going to stop you from making them them sales??

Your bold claims are unnecessary, and I'm here to help people not troll.

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I WASN'T talking to YOU, you twit :p

It was directed @ Metas

Chris

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joetheseo 14 years ago

Originally Posted by skyfox7

I WASN'T talking to YOU, you twit :p

It was directed @ Metas

Chris

Sorry Chris, my mistake ..
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metas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by skyfox7

Stealing is stealing, it does not matter what spin you put on it or how you justify it. Two wrongs dont make a right.

What I find a disturbing is that you are offering an email course in IM on your homepage in your signature. I sincerely hope you are not encouraging them to steal, let alone do anything else illegal.

But judging by your 'nobody understands me' mentality, hopes are not high.

I also wonder whether this whle thread is meant to be a troll thread to get people to see your signature.

Chris

Chris, are you serious man?! I'm not promoting or recommending anything - I'm simply asking questions. Read the thread. I have said consistently that I'm white-hat and that I have never done any of this and only seek an understanding. Enough with the judgments and accusations.

As my Amazon example points out there is likely a legitimate and legal way to use these images (copyrighted materials!) to sell the thing that is represented in the image - wow, what a concept... so, you mean that as an Amazon affiliate, I can use their Top Gun image to sell... a DVD of Top Gun on Amazon?! Wow, and that is a scandalous thought here! Are you guys kidding?

Should the T of S within Amazon Associates allow for this (and I'm 99% sure it allows for promotion of the product with images etc. for traffic flowing to the product) then it is certainly not stealing. Everyone needs to chill the F out... and read what's actually written... and then think a little... and then and only then choose whether to respond.

Is this the dark ages here? Simple, honest and innocent questions should never be so violently opposed. I feel like an unfortunate soul in Salem circa 1692... completely misunderstood, misrepresented, unfairly "convicted" of crimes... thought crimes as it were... very Orwellian experience I must say. Absolutely ludicrous.

So many comments and accusations that are totally off point and completely inappropriate.

Anyone feel like continuing the real discussion, as I think there are some things we could sort out, or should we just kill this? For the most part this has been fairly unproductive as many have taken it as a podium for righteous and inappropriate preaching and ranting.

I mean, how many of the people that have so violently attacked simple questions have copyrighted materials on their laptop. Every one of them I bet. In other words, to be that "holier than thou" I would insist that you have never downloaded an image from Google images, or downloaded a tune through LimeWire or downloaded a movie via torrent, even if only for personal use; or shared any copyrighted material with a friend or a business associate. And I am willing to bet that every last one of those preachers has done that, and most on many occasions. So, let's dispense with the raving and get back to the discussion or just move on.

James

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cashcow

14 years ago

So, as an Amazon Associate (affiliate of Amazon), if I were to copy an image of Top Gun from Amazon and paste it into my site/blog and link it back to the DVD of Top Gun on Amazon, have I broken copyright law? A violation on copyright is a violation on copyright, doesn't matter whether it's a still or moving picture.

Actually, I think this is a different thing all together.

If you go into your Amazon affiliate account to promote a product, you will see they give you the image as part of the promotional tools.

Kind of the same way a CJ or clickbank merchant will give you a banner to put on your site to promote the product.

Totally different than leeching (whatever that is ... I'm actually still not clear no what the OP means by "leeching").

Lee

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Gone Fishing

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travlinguy

14 years ago

"So many comments and accusations that are totally off point and completely inappropriate."

None of this thread is off point. It's really simple. You're looking for people to justify stealing and you aren't getting what you want so you go on about staying on point and all your other whiney nonsense.

"I feel like an unfortunate soul in Salem circa 1692... completely misunderstood, misrepresented, unfairly "convicted"

Poor baby... You're not misunderstood. The problem with you and people like you is that you're completely transparent.

Unless you're really so lame as to not understand what this is all about, the whole thread is on point. It just so happens that you don't like the feedback. That's a shame.

And if you really want this to end as you've indicated several times, why don't you stop the idiotic whining and stop responding. You're outnumbered. It seems that honest people still outnumber the thieves. And learning that was worth all of your nonsense. Thanks for starting the thread, you’ve given me hope.

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Chris Worner

14 years ago

Originally Posted by travlinguy

"So many comments and accusations that are totally off point and completely inappropriate."

None of this thread is off point. It's really simple. You're looking for people to justify stealing and you aren't getting what you want so you go on about staying on point and all your other whiney nonsense.

"I feel like an unfortunate soul in Salem circa 1692... completely misunderstood, misrepresented, unfairly "convicted"

Poor baby... You're not misunderstood. The problem with you and people like you is that you're completely transparent.

Unless you're really so lame as to not understand what this is all about, the whole thread is on point. It just so happens that you don't like the feedback. That's a shame.

And if you really want this to end as you've indicated several times, why don't you stop the idiotic whining and stop responding. You're outnumbered. It seems that honest people still outnumber the thieves. And learning that was worth all of your nonsense. Thanks for starting the thread, you've given me hope.

Indeed, metas is one person I will certainly not be doing buisness with ever.

Chris

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metas

14 years ago

I've been in IM for 5 years. In that time...

I have always been completely white-hat in everything I've done.

In my business and personal life I have always acted at the highest level of integrity.

I understand the power of words and take that power seriously. I don't judge, accuse and berate. I do however respond to in accurate and inappropriate challenges.

I only asked questions here. I was violently attacked and judged. I opposed those attacks, while trying to remain polite and professional and continuing to communicate to try to get to on to a common understanding.

The attacks then became personal, which I have no tolerance for. So, I then responded to them. I never began this with any bad intentions or even a thought that it would devolve into this. And I was never trying to add to that, but bring it back on point.

I know all of the above to be true.

I take my words very seriously and it seems that many of you do not. You accuse, judge and slander on a whim without cause and without appreciating the impact and power of those comments, and their affect on real people.

I'm sorry that my inquisitiveness has caused and effected so much disdain.

I have never done anything illegal/fraudulent in IM over a period of 5 years and I've been made to feel like a criminal for asking questions to form a complete understanding of the realities, impacts and consequences of copyright laws. I was looking to understand the nuances and not just the broad stroke.

I guess I'll have to look elsewhere. Back to google, lurking and buying WSO's. It much less painful and time consuming.

Best, James

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Madtech

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Johnny Slater

14 years ago

If you want to understand copyright law then consult with a copyright lawyer, anything short of that will just be conjecture anyway.

You asked a question and pretty much everyone gave the same answer. It is not the fault of anyone else that you didn't like the answers and kept trying to rephrase the question trying to get different answers.

Originally Posted by metas

I have never done anything illegal/fraudulent in IM over a period of 5 years and I've been made to feel like a criminal for asking questions to form a complete understanding of the realities, impacts and consequences of copyright laws.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

James,

I think a few people here have stepped over the line, and no - you're not among them. Your first posts did give me the impression, though, that you were looking for justification for something. You cleared that up and it should have been dropped.

Between Suzanne's reference to the repeated threads about getting around copyright and your own comment about inches/miles, you've got a summary of the reason for the heat.

If you rephrased this as an issue of what companies should allow, that might work better. The question of movie trailers pointing to the company's site is still too close to the skin. It's that inch over the line. The next step is giving away products with a link back to the salespage.

Yes, people would use exactly the same justification...

Paul
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- Adam Nolan 14 years ago
  
  Hell, i'd LOVE it if you leeched my videos... they're all branded so you're just sending me more traffic
  
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betsyanne

14 years ago

I believe Frank Bruno said once that any video up on Youtube is fair game and can be copied at will. He's supposed to be an expert on Video Marketing, now I'll have to go back through all of my Ebooks to find it.

I just wanted to share my experience. I find that MOST videos on YouTube have an "embed" area where you can copy the link and put it on your site or blog. The person then clicks the video and it plays from the YouTube site via your blog.

BUT I have also run into some YouTube videos that do not have embed codes on them. I think this must be something that people who upload videos to YouTube get to customize. That means that they do not want people to put their videos on their site. I can understand this, because they own the video. They should be able to say what happens with it.

Something that can solve a lot of problems is this: you can get permission from the actual artist whether it is a video, something written, or a piece of artwork - - and then it is OK to use it, along with a sentence underneath (usually that is courteous) that tells people where you got it.

I agree with other posters: stealing, whatever word you call it, is still stealing, even if you know somebody else who is doing it or have read that it is OK. And that goes for everything unless you permission. Period.

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Elizabeth Sheppard
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R Hagel

14 years ago

OK, James, my apologies for misunderstanding your first post.

To answer your question later -- yes, it is illegal to upload someone's copyrighted material on YouTube.

Secondly... you asked why it might be considered wrong to upload an image or video of Top Gun when you're actually trying to sell the product. In other words, why is there a copyright issue when you're trying to help someone?

I get the point that you understand that it's against copyright, but you're trying to figure out why it's considered wrong if you're helping the company, selling their product, putting money in their pocket, etc.

Here's one reason...

Because if the company let everyone use their copyrighted material -- even to sell the product -- they'd lose control of how they market the product.

For example...

Imagine someone selling a Top Gun video off a KKK site. Or just imagine someone selling Harry Potter books off of a porn site.

The people who owns the copyrights to all Top Gun materials would not want their stuff associated with a KKK site. Likewise, the J.K. Rowling and the company who publishes Harry Potter wouldn't want their images or anything else associated with porn.

Again, the copyright owner wants to protect HOW their products and business are seen -- and letting people use their copyrighted works willy nilly (even if the person/affiliate is making sales for the business), isn't always in the best interest of the company.

That's probably one reason why many companies on CJ.com and other affiliate networks manually approve sites. They want to make sure that the affiliate's website matches the kind of image the vendor is trying to project. If not, the vendor rejects the affiliate.

***

Of course, as mentioned, some companies don't aggressively protect their copyrights (and their trademarks). Some even give affiliates permission to use certain images, etc. Still, folks always need to ask a company for explicit permission before they use any copyrighted material.

Cheers,
Becky

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