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Outsourcing problem: What should I do at this point?

by ikuret75
18 replies
Hi, it could be a bit off topic for IM itself but I need help here. (To Mods, if this isn't the best place please advise or move...maybe "programming talk" is better?)

I sell some software and for my new software, I used Rent a Coder to hire a programmer. (For your information I did not go with cheap ones from some developing countries.)

It is a big project, and I hired one team who seemed most professional.
We started working and our communication was good, and they have been honest about everything.

However, they couldn't finish it by the deadline and asked me to extend the deadline. This was something I was ok with, and I already had taken the possibility into consideration.

However, the problem is, the second deadline came and they said they couldn't finish it because they didn't have enough expertise or knowledge on the problem they ware facing regarding the program, and they asked me to finish it with someone else, and said it's up to me how much I would pay.

I said no, because there is no guarantee for me to be able to find someone else and finish it with the original budget (and it is already over the deadline), and most programmers I know don't like to do the job which someone else did initially. The program is best developed by the original programmer. Also it probably will take a lot more time. My new programmer might need to contact the original programmer but there is no guarantee that they would stay in touch. So I said I could extend the deadline one more time.

But they kept saying they couldn't do it anymore and they would leave the payment to me, but asked me to consider all the effort and time they put.

I know they spent time and effort on this, but it is not finished. And there is no guarantee or anything how much money or time it will cost if I try to finish it with someone else (or even if I want to do so after this).

Technically, according to the rule on Rent a coder, I do not have to pay anything. But, I know they did whatever they could.

This is a big project and took them more than a month and the budget is also big so even though a contract is a contract, if I don't pay then it would be tough for them.

So, my question is, how much should I pay, if you think I should pay at all, or should I not pay? Do you think a contract is a contract and I shouldn't pay if it is broken whatever the reason is? Or is it too heartless?

I really don't know in this situation and thought I would ask your advice here.

Thanks in advance
#outsourcing #point #problem
  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    I think a good strategy is to hire another programmer and tell the first programmer they need to be available to answer questions. Then once the second programmer is on track let the first programmer have partial payment. From an ethical standpoint, even if the first programmer is an idiot, if it were me, I would pay them something. They did work after all.
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  • Profile picture of the author verdi
    Hmm. If the original programmer is willing to accept any amount for his work, he may accept the partial payment and move on to something he can handle and not have any contact with your second programmer.

    Could you tell the original programmer that you will pay $X to HIM, once the second programmer has been able to get all the info he needs from him? This way the original programmer knows he'll get nothing if he doesn't co-operate and he'll see a nice fat check if he does co-operate.

    I assume you will also tell the second programmer what has happened and that he/she needs to let you know if they've received co-operation.

    I too would want to give the first programmer something for trying.

    Hope this helps
    Joe
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hi,

    I had this situation several times.

    For one project - it eventually went through 5 programmers before it got finished.

    My advice - Find someone who does understand it and can finish it - get them to revue the current code to see how done it is.

    You may find that a good programmer will need to start from scratch despite the work that already got done if they had a flawed design.

    If the new guy says it's 80% done - then pay those guys 80% of what you promised.

    If the new guy says it needs starting over completely then don't pay them.

    You don't have to feel guilty about this since they didn't deliver and for all you know what has been delivered is useless.

    Find out where you stand and then make your decision.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author Jacqueline Smith
    I'd have another programmer look at it first. Have them give you an idea of what still needs to be done. As this will just be an estimate, tell the first programmer that they need to be available to the second programmer for questions etc. Once the project is completed by the new programmer, then decide what (if anything) should be paid to the original programmer.

    If they did some work that was in fact beneficial to the project then they deserve something. However, if the new programmer has to start from scratch, I don't think you should feel obligated to pay them anything.

    I would be feeling the same as you however, the programmer needs to take some responsibility for accepting a project that they weren't qualified to finish.

    God Luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author jdwfg4
    To be honest that was foolish or shady of them to accept a project when they didn't really have the know how to do it.

    If you do make some kind of "grace" payment just to be nice, I wouldn't go over 10%. If they gave you some working form of the software, with just a few bugs, that would be one thing, but its not really about being heartless, it just comes down to the contract and negotiated terms. Plus, they've wasted your time and money, so don't feel like you have to pay. I think you can just tell them, without spite or anything, that they didn't hold up their end of the deal, and that yes, they are in a tough spot, but as are you, and no hard feelings.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I agree with Andy on this one. You are paying for a complete project. You have no idea how botched it is until another programmer takes a look. I wouldn't pay them for NOT delivering what they said they could and would deliver, unless another programmer, who can finish the project says that it's a certain % done and then pay them that percent.

    Most likely, another programmer will have to do significant work to bring it to completion.
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  • Profile picture of the author ikuret75
    Thanks all for your advice. This has been really helpful. Thank you.
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  • Profile picture of the author jedz
    Banned
    I think that's one of the risks in hiring a freelancer, this person only works from home and maybe working with other clients at the same time. They do not have a supervisor/manager who will check their output from time to time. Freelancers do not have employers so they do as they please and sometimes cannot be contacted for various reasons. Working with a freelancer reduces the quality of your work by 50%.

    Why not try an outsourcing company, where staffs are working in a business office managed by shift supervisors and account managers to ensure the quality and productivity of their work. Staff leasing company make sure that the staff are capable enough and meet all the qualifications need by the client.

    If you're still looking for a programmer do not hesitate to contact us, we can definitely help you out.
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  • Profile picture of the author IRichie
    Pay them partially as a percentage. If you think that your 70% software is complete then pay them 70% of the amount, BUT, only after they communicate with second programmer and give him proper support. Ask second programmer, if he need further help? If not, then you should pay the original programmer and let the second programmer finish the work.
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  • Profile picture of the author jamespitt
    Always be very aware with software projects that 70% complete isn't like 70% complete of buildig a house or making a table. That last 30% could take twice as long as the 1st 70%. Sometimes it takes 1 day to do 70%, 1 week to do the next 25%, and 1 month to do the last 5%.

    I'd get another coder in to review things. If they didn't know what they were doing, you could well be worth starting again with someone else. I recently did this with a project for someone - the last 5% was taking a long time as I needed to complete the project that someone had done 95% of. In the end we restarted from scratch, and it's been a lot easier and quicker.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by jamespitt View Post

      Always be very aware with software projects that 70% complete isn't like 70% complete of buildig a house or making a table. That last 30% could take twice as long as the 1st 70%. Sometimes it takes 1 day to do 70%, 1 week to do the next 25%, and 1 month to do the last 5%.

      I'd get another coder in to review things. If they didn't know what they were doing, you could well be worth starting again with someone else. I recently did this with a project for someone - the last 5% was taking a long time as I needed to complete the project that someone had done 95% of. In the end we restarted from scratch, and it's been a lot easier and quicker.
      You ARE right about programs, but I wanted to correct something. HOMES may ALSO fall under those rules. HECK, sometimes you are FORBIDDEN to change something in a home unless it is up to NEW codes! So a SIMPLE change, to a water heater in the basement, may require changes to the roof, walls, and insulation to update wiring and vents, for example.

      BTW to the OP,

      Manfred Ekblad is right. THEY should get the expertise, or hire someone. HEY, I have had to learn a LOT of new things as a programmer. It is part of the job. And SOMETIMES, with programming, one methodology is not compatible with another. THAT means either using another methodology that may be FAR from the best, or changing things! So the 90% they did may be WORTHLESS! It is like one place I interviewed at. I asked them WHY they used VB3 AND VB4! The answer was that only VB3 was compatible with some of the software they had. What if THEY had that "90% done" by a freelancer that did it in VB4?

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Manfred Ekblad
    If they don't know how to finish the project, they should hire a specialist and pay him/her from their own profit margin... it shouldn't be your problem.

    Isn't that the point of outsourcing?

    If you didn't specify in the contract about partial payment, it's all up to you.

    If you still want to pay them and be a nice guy... what about the next "nice guy" they will do business with..? Just a thought
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  • Profile picture of the author RACNicole
    Hi ikuret75, this is Nicole from vWorker (formerly known as Rentacoder).

    Please take up this matter with our arbitration system if you haven't already. It's important for you (and everyone else here) to know that our arbitration system is available to address not only conflicts, but general questions about what to do in a confusing situation as well.

    We have specific procedures in place to protect both employers and workers so that both parties feel that they've received a fair outcome.

    -Nicole
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  • Profile picture of the author RACNicole
    Originally Posted by Stede Troisi View Post

    As a professional programmer with over 15 years experience, this really bothers me in many ways.

    1. The low quality of programmers on these rent-for-cheap.com type sites. I understand the need to save money, but you must also understand the risks involved. I believe the original OP felt he paid a reasonable amount, but I doubt it. Not many people understand the true cost of a developer.
    Steve, it's important to understand that although the amount paid for work may be small to you, that same amount is could be much larger to the Worker who receives it, and therefore, doesn't necessarily indicate poor quality work. You will share the same risks in hiring a programmer from our site, or hiring a team from a programming corporation. High amounts of money do not erase the risks of outsourcing.

    Originally Posted by Stede Troisi View Post

    2. It is horrible that the OP has to make this decision in the first place. It is horrible that another project goes unfinished.

    Did you know that 90%+ of computer projects either fail completely, don't deliver what is promised or are significantly delayed? Sadly, this is the state of development today. I wish you well.
    I have never heard of such a high failure rate in the online outsourcing industry (if that is what we're talking about). According to our research, only 10-20% of projects fail. Can you point me to a credible source that supports your figure?

    Thank you.
    -Nicole
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by RACNicole View Post

      Steve, it's important to understand that although the amount paid for work may be small to you, that same amount is could be much larger to the Worker who receives it, and therefore, doesn't necessarily indicate poor quality work. You will share the same risks in hiring a programmer from our site, or hiring a team from a programming corporation. High amounts of money do not erase the risks of outsourcing.



      I have never heard of such a high failure rate in the online outsourcing industry (if that is what we're talking about). According to our research, only 10-20% of projects fail. Can you point me to a credible source that supports your figure?

      Thank you.
      -Nicole
      Nicole,

      A DECENT person should take care of the problem themselves. I haven't seen much about the history of the projects I have worked on through the company I am currently with, but many apparently have been like the first one.

      On the first one, they tried no less than THREE ways and THREE teams before hiring me, and I thought the work was ridiculously simple. I attended a meeting where the partner(who paid for and was the boss of EVERYONE ELSE IN THE ROOM) was told something was IMPOSSIBLE! That is THEIR word, IMPOSSIBLE! I finished it in an hour, the first thirty minutes programmed in that meeting after everyone else told me to "SHUTUP" when I said I could do it.

      BUT, I should make it clear that the customer hired a "big 5 firm"(An old term describing the top 5 consulting firms at the time). That firm hired others and, after THEY failed, the company hired ME. The customer didn't care, because the work got DONE!

      And a LOT of people just start coding, and don't give a thought to ANYTHING. If not for databases, there would probably be a lot more problems. One autoresponder someone had written, and used to sell, used flat files, and had NO locking mechanism. If two or more people register at about the same time, the WHOLE customer list gets WIPED OUT! On my current contract, someone used large APPS to write hundreds of records ONE BY ONE! On average, it took about 2 HOURS! I got it down to just a few SECONDS, by writting a program to do them all at once. That is a good thing, since they wanted to run it within 3 MINUTES!

      So it really might be worthwhile to check your 10-20% stat, since that sounds low. Keep in mind that that locking mechanism problem may be blamed on LOTS of things and one person testing it may NEVER encounter the problem. And 2 HOURS to merge say 100 records into a couple million? Maybe someone will consider that reasonable. I can just imagine all the needless thrashing that those diskdrives did though. In BOTH cases your customers and YOU might have considered those successes, even though I considered them failures. And the 100 records is likely now well over 1000. And we are only dealing with about 6% of the data! Just imagine that 2 hours becoming 30!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author tamilseo
    your coder is better compared to my coder

    There are many bad apples in rent a coder. i paid one coder full money when he sent 95% working software. then i asked the source code but he did not deliver it. i contacted many times but he refused to sent the source code.

    I contacted rac support, with request to mail the coder to send me the source code. They simply send me the reply some thing like this, "we cannot able to do anything in this matter because you already sent the money.

    I again replied that i don't want money or code improvement just tell him to send me the source code. Rent a coder support again sent me that we cannot able to anything in this matter. The coder is getting new projects. If they simply instruct that coder to send me the code he would do it. After this i never use rac


    From my experience scriptlance staff are more friendly like this matter.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by tamilseo View Post

      your coder is better compared to my coder

      There are many bad apples in rent a coder. i paid one coder full money when he sent 95% working software. then i asked the source code but he did not deliver it. i contacted many times but he refused to sent the source code.

      I contacted rac support, with request to mail the coder to send me the source code. They simply send me the reply some thing like this, "we cannot able to do anything in this matter because you already sent the money.

      I again replied that i don't want money or code improvement just tell him to send me the source code. Rent a coder support again sent me that we cannot able to anything in this matter. The coder is getting new projects. If they simply instruct that coder to send me the code he would do it. After this i never use rac


      From my experience scriptlance staff are more friendly like this matter.
      You can't even be sure HE wrote it. If you paid via credit card, a dispute is in order.

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author RACNicole
      Originally Posted by tamilseo View Post

      your coder is better compared to my coder

      There are many bad apples in rent a coder. i paid one coder full money when he sent 95% working software. then i asked the source code but he did not deliver it. i contacted many times but he refused to sent the source code.

      I contacted rac support, with request to mail the coder to send me the source code. They simply send me the reply some thing like this, "we cannot able to do anything in this matter because you already sent the money.

      I again replied that i don't want money or code improvement just tell him to send me the source code. Rent a coder support again sent me that we cannot able to anything in this matter. The coder is getting new projects. If they simply instruct that coder to send me the code he would do it. After this i never use rac


      From my experience scriptlance staff are more friendly like this matter.
      Tamilseo,

      Before we send a coder escrowed funds, you are required to verify that the software works the way you want it to work, and that you have the required source code. This requirement is part of the vWorker (Rentacoder) terms and conditions agreement.

      RentACoder will dispatch 100% of your project's escrowed funds to your coder's account after you swear up and down via check boxes that (1) the whole job is finished to your satisfaction, (2) you received everything that you asked for, (3) you tested the entire deliverable to make sure it works, (4) your payment is not an advanced payment, and (5) you understand your payment is permanent.

      To acknowledge that you understand these things, you have to tick those 4 separate check boxes before signing off on the project. If you did not receive everything you asked for (as indicated in check box 2), why did you release the funds to the coder? It looks as though you may not have understood (or paid attention to) one or more of the conditions above, and for that, we recommend that everyone pay close attention to each step of the project process to avoid the problems tamilseo incurred and to please ask questions if there is something about the process that is not clearly understood.

      -Nicole
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