What's this 'relationship with your subscriber non-sense' all about?

by Big Al
22 replies
Like most of you guys I'm on a few lists and have an email account dedicated to 'subscribing' and email addresses for guys who send emails I like.

What's really obvious from lots of marketers (even the huge ones) is that quite often all they do is pitch other affiliate products. I think the only reason I'm on their list is because they have a huge reputation and make a ton of cash.

If I didn't know who they were then I'd probably unsubscribe or use the 'dedicated email address' only.

So what's all this non-sense about the money not being in the list ... it's the 'relationship' you have with your list? : )

... Maybe this is just the 'freebie' list and these guys are more aggressive to them than the 'buyers' list.

Whatever it is ... I'm sure it's planned, tested and thought out.

What do you think?

Al

P.S. It's hard without giving examples of these guys but I'm sure you have your own examples.
#nonsense #relationship #subscriber
  • Profile picture of the author joetheseo
    Originally Posted by Big Al View Post

    Like most of you guys I'm on a few lists and have an email account dedicated to 'subscribing' and email addresses for guys who send emails I like.

    What's really obvious from lots of marketers (even the huge ones) is that quite often all they do is pitch other affiliate products. I think the only reason I'm on their list is because they have a huge reputation and make a ton of cash.

    If I didn't know who they were then I'd probably unsubscribe or use the 'dedicated email address' only.

    So what's all this non-sense about the money not being in the list ... it's the 'relationship' you have with your list? : )

    ... Maybe this is just the 'freebie' list and these guys are more aggressive to them than the 'buyers' list.

    Whatever it is ... I'm sure it's planned, tested and thought out.

    What do you think?

    Al

    P.S. It's hard without giving examples of these guys but I'm sure you have your own examples.
    Sure this is true ... We didn't even start building a list until recently, believe it or not we make FULL TIME income WITHOUT ANY list at all. Only using PPC and SEO methods and strategies.

    Our first test was with Affiliate Emails.. and it converted pretty HORRIBLE!

    So we made ourselves sound "cool" with our own emails for round 2.. and it worked 100% better.

    This was in the same market also. You've got to be "cool" with your subscribers.. Send them FREE cool stuff on a regular basis.

    Just the free report isn't enough.. imo
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    The "trick" is making your name synonymous with quality. Then people open your emails even when they don't know what the content will be. When you get to that point, you've won a Wonka Golden Ticket. You can live off of your list.

    But most never get there because they hit the list members up over and over to buy stuff, never bothering to give them any quality for free. I might respect a fellow marketer a lot, but if I'm on his/her list and all I ever get is "buy this now!" emails, I'm not going to stay subscribed for long.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author excoder01
    The relationship you're talking about is one of a "business partner/associate" not a friendship type of relationship.

    After all, you have relationships with supermarkets (personalized advertisements in print, cards for discounts, etc). That's a consumer business relationship.

    There's no problem with that as long as it's not in your face or constant sale pitches to buy more expensive stuff.

    However, that's the problem I'm seeing in the Internet marketing industry lately.

    The more I read all these free reports on building an email list and joining all these marketers email list -- the more it sounds the drug dealing business.

    - Entice them with a sample report and curiosity (free crack sample, it will make you wild!)
    - Bait them and send them more freebies (give more and craving for more)
    - Really get them addicted for more product (this time, they're hook on your drug of choice).
    - Once they're really addicted and "bond" with you as the supplier, you hit them hard with a paid offer (your clients are now hook, trusting and bonding with you as the supplier of drugs, now they want the hard stuff, and will pay for it)
    - You send more paid products and get them to buy again (your client want more of the hard stuff, they can't get enough of it, and want to buy from you again).
    - Tell them if they do not get this now, it will be gone in the next 24-48 hrs (all the drug will be gone if you do not act now, get on it)
    - Sell them the most pricey product of them all (finally, after your clients are really hook, you sell them the hardest drug for a hefty price).

    Now, that's just an extreme example in a negative way -- but it speaks about the common practice of the persuasive emails I've been receiving lately. Too much sales pitches. Marketers sending me to buy products and if I'm not the first 50, I lose my chance. Then if I buy one of their product, they will offer me a chance to attend a $10K seminar if I'm "serious" about success.

    What kind of 'relationship' is this? It's a business relationship in the form of "I want you for money!"

    Just be cool and act as a friend without expecting them to buy from you at first...it might even take several weeks for them to even do something or buy from you.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheGraduate
    Originally Posted by Big Al View Post

    Like most of you guys I'm on a few lists and have an email account dedicated to 'subscribing' and email addresses for guys who send emails I like.

    What's really obvious from lots of marketers (even the huge ones) is that quite often all they do is pitch other affiliate products. I think the only reason I'm on their list is because they have a huge reputation and make a ton of cash.

    If I didn't know who they were then I'd probably unsubscribe or use the 'dedicated email address' only.

    So what's all this non-sense about the money not being in the list ... it's the 'relationship' you have with your list? : )

    ... Maybe this is just the 'freebie' list and these guys are more aggressive to them than the 'buyers' list.

    Whatever it is ... I'm sure it's planned, tested and thought out.

    What do you think?

    Al

    P.S. It's hard without giving examples of these guys but I'm sure you have your own examples.
    I don't really get your point here, but I can tell you that business is a number's game. most of that relationship with your subscribers crap is nothing but a myth, business is all about having a lot of people to pitch to so your conversion rate has a better chance, it is all about reach not about relationship
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    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      Originally Posted by TheGraduate View Post

      I don't really get your point here, but I can tell you that business is a number's game. most of that relationship with your subscribers crap is nothing but a myth, business is all about having a lot of people to pitch to so your conversion rate has a better chance, it is all about reach not about relationship
      It all depends on where those names on your list came from. Were they people who bought from you and double-opted into your list? Or were they freebie seekers? The latter will be tougher to market to as opposed to people who bought from you and are interested in more of what you have to offer, and trusting your judgement that you will offer them quality products and treat them well. Just my 2 cents.
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by TheGraduate View Post

      I don't really get your point here, but I can tell you that business is a number's game. most of that relationship with your subscribers crap is nothing but a myth, business is all about having a lot of people to pitch to so your conversion rate has a better chance, it is all about reach not about relationship
      Can't it be about both? The only way it can be only about reach is if you only care about that first sale. There's got to be something else in between the offers, because no one wants nothing but a stream of commercial offers.

      If you develop reach, you DO have a better chance to sell more, but the CONVERSION rate is about the relationship.

      Consider it this way. You play the reach-only way and have a list of 1000 subscribers, and you send a promotion and sell 1%, which is 10.

      Or, you take the time to focus on relationship, so your list is smaller, say 100. But you still sell 10 copies because of the context the offer is received in. That's a 10% conversion.

      I know which one I'd rather, because there's no doubt that I can grow 100 into 1000, at which point my 10% conversion means 100 sales next time. But if I have a list of 1000 that converts 1%, in order for me to sell 100, I'd have to get 10,000 subscribers.

      Which is possible, but harder because I have to deal with a lot more attrition from unsubscribes. I dunno, that's just my experience, though I have outsold lists 10x the size of the ones I worked with REGULARLY, with single digit or below unsubscribes from a 1-2 times weekly list.

      I know you may disagree, but it does still prove the point it's not ONLY about reach. It CAN be, but that sort of leaves a lot of the possibilities the internet offers on the table. If it's just about reach, just go onto TV advertising.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Lianelli
    I try to entertain combined with sales. Share some content, together with a pitch.

    After a lot of testing, I've noticed that around 30% of my lists are plain-old freebie seekers. Nothing wrong with that. Another 30% are (soon-to-be) customers. And the last 40% is still on the fence about making a buying decision.

    Thru lite education mixed with entertainment and some salespitches I try to convert that 40% Normally they don't care a lot about freebies. People want to be entertained. And they buy when they're convinced.

    So that leaves us with two options:

    1) Give lots of freebies to convince
    2) Entertain / educate them a bit and keep pitching

    I'd rather go for the second. Why? Because it takes less time. It's easier. More fun to write those kind of messages. Plus it doesn't attract more of those 30% freebie seekers. (rather keep that at 30% instead of increasing it)

    Don't think I never give away stuff or anything. Though I'm not the kind of guy that first sends 10 free reports, then kindly asks for 1 small purchase.

    -Dave
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    • Profile picture of the author theultimate1
      Originally Posted by Dave Lianelli View Post

      I try to entertain combined with sales. Share some content, together with a pitch.

      After a lot of testing, I've noticed that around 30% of my lists are plain-old freebie seekers. Nothing wrong with that. Another 30% are (soon-to-be) customers. And the last 40% is still on the fence about making a buying decision.

      Thru lite education mixed with entertainment and some salespitches I try to convert that 40% Normally they don't care a lot about freebies. People want to be entertained. And they buy when they're convinced.

      So that leaves us with two options:

      1) Give lots of freebies to convince
      2) Entertain / educate them a bit and keep pitching

      I'd rather go for the second. Why? Because it takes less time. It's easier. More fun to write those kind of messages. Plus it doesn't attract more of those 30% freebie seekers. (rather keep that at 30% instead of increasing it)

      Don't think I never give away stuff or anything. Though I'm not the kind of guy that first sends 10 free reports, then kindly asks for 1 small purchase.

      -Dave
      I understand the education part. But, how do you go about entertaining them? I'd really like to know. About both, in fact . Thanks
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Big Al,

        I think the only reason I'm on their list is because they have a huge reputation and make a ton of cash.
        You should try altering that sentence a little.

        they have manufactured a huge reputation that they make a ton of cash
        Everything else following that is based on faulty assumptions.
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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
          I posted this on a different thread yesterday, where a fellow warrior was asking about what "role" she needed to play in the niche to be successful as an affiliate.

          That's a slightly different conversation than the "guru" figures who have their own products, but assuming that all of us strive to be both affiliates AND product producers... I think it fits.

          Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

          Outside of just reviewing and reporting, I think an effective long-term affiliate needs to take on a more "meta" role as well. You need to have a persona, and that persona kind of defines your approach as a figure in the market.

          I initially come up with this analogy.

          I used to think of it as the prospects being sheep, and the affiliate who becomes a "guru" figure in the niche as being either a wolf or a shepherd.

          The wolf is about getting the most money now, and really doesn't care what happens to the sheep in the process.

          The shepherd instead feeds and takes care of the sheep, and they let him make a living off wool and lanolin or whatever.

          The wolf's always gotta chase new sheep. The shepherd can make the same living off a small and more stable flock.

          In IM, the "white hat" guys tend to be shepherds, while the "black hat" guys tend to be wolves. The wolves need the fast, massive, easy route because they have to stay fed.

          The shepherds can take the long view, because that's the whole reason they're in the game. Now, I USED to only see those two roles, but I think there is a third that's been neglected.

          I say neglected because there are people who are naturally a wolf or a shepherd, but there are also people SMART enough to know that each personality actually APPEALS to a different kind of audience.

          Believe it or not, there are SOME sheep that WANT to be eaten. But I digress - I was saying there are some marketers smart enough to fulfill BOTH roles to get as much from as many different kinds of sheep there are.

          So people actively play those roles on purpose. However, I've never seen this THIRD role done on purpose.

          There's a kind of sheep called the Bellwether. That's because he's a wether (a castrated male sheep) that's wearing a bell. You ever notice in a flock of sheep, there's only one wearing a bell?

          That's because that sheep is the "leader" of the sheep. The reason you need to keep a bell on him is because the SHEEP follow him as the leader, but he doesn't know he's the leader. He's not out in front of the flock. In fact, he's often in the middle.

          See, the sheep all default to wanting to do what the sheep next to it is doing until it gets bored and does something on its own. The "bellwether" is essentially the sheep that gets bored the FASTEST, so it moves.

          Then the sheep next to it want to move too, so they move. And then the sheep next to them move, and so on. It seems like the flock moves in a freaky, unpredictable way until you mark the Bellwether, and then you can just listen for the bell.

          The bell is ringing where the flock is GOING to move. But it's not because he leads them there, and they don't follow - it's just a domino effect. He does his own thing, and they all seemingly spontaneously decide to ALSO do the same thing. Not because he is doing it. But because the sheep beside them is doing it.

          Now, this particular role, the Bellwether - is being played right now NATURALLY by some super affiliates. I don't even think they realize it - hence probably WHY they work as a bellwether. Some of them aren't even paid affiliates, but they CREATE and DICTATE the success of launches just by being visible online about what THEY do.

          It triggers a chain reaction, and people follow them, then people follow them, then a trend explodes. PPC is the hot new thing. No, list building is. No, it's offline gold. (Those are just illustrative examples of how trends change, not specific Bellwether examples.)

          As far as I know, no one has tried to become a Bellwether ON PURPOSE, because it SEEMS like you have to be a natural - it SEEMS like you have to be lucky to fall into the role.

          But I don't think that's true. I think you CAN SECRETLY be a Bellwether in a niche ON PURPOSE, and set yourself up to be a trendsetter who profits not by promotion, but simply by taking a visible action, which when your followers imitate it, you profit.

          As an affiliate, this seems very easy to me, because you "promote" by BUYING the stuff you sell and using it. You sell courses by TAKING THEM and PARTICIPATING in them with your "customers". It's not "you should buy this thing to be successful like me" it's - hey, let's buy this thing and do it together, so we can be successful like them.

          Anyways, that's the Bellwether model, it's kinda something I'm working on - I call copyright dibs and all that. But I hope it's useful so far as giving you 3 affiliate roles I know of and that 2 of which I've used to sell honking buttloads of stuff.

          I'm working on the 3rd. It's tricky, but I bet it's doable.
          I developed the idea of those roles primarily as the guy who WROTE all the promo emails at StomperNet (ghostwriting for whichever faculty it was "from") until last year - including the content ones, the house promos, AND the affiliate promotions.

          In fact, I even wrote the swipes for the affiliates to use to promote StomperNet's stuff as well. I don't say that to brag, but to say that the above isn't just some idle thought exercise. I have literally used those roles in copy to develop - yeah - RELATIONSHIPS with the people in the list that are being interacted with.

          The true power of the internet is in how you can use the tools of automation and mass communication to provide the SUSTAINABLE ILLUSION of a deeper, more personal pseudo-friendship than you can with say, direct mail or TV ads.

          My shortcut is to use the list and a blog together, and always encourage commenting and participation as much as possible, and ENGAGE in the comments as the niche persona. That way you never have to touch EVERY person on your list, but you provide them that visible indicator that you "walk among them".

          Then, through carefully placed "clues" throughout the messaging sequence, you can subtly draw them toward you mentally, and move the "friend" line. To do that I use a 5 step message tempate I call the "Introduction Induction."

          1. Verify something in the niche or in life that they observe or perceive. This lets them know you "see" where they are coming from. It mentally places you beside them.

          2. Validate the way they feel about that observation. This moves you closer still, into the realm of a family member or trusted friend, because you feel on the inside the way that they do.

          Using the two above points together is vital, it puts your persona both INSIDE and OUTSIDE their brain - you are basically verifing for them that their sense/memory complex is working, and correct, and yours is the same.

          3. Use that powerful connection as a Vantage to present your new information that you want them to absorb. You're already basically holding the door to their head open - whatever comes next is going right in and sticking.

          4. Share their Values with them - Whatever it is that they value in themselves - loyalty, hard work, patriotism, whatever - reflect that back to them, not necessarily explicitly, but in photos, anecdotes, whatever.

          This positions you as part of that general circle of friends and acquaintances where they feel that you are not just a distant figure like the author of a book they are reading, but that you are actually a real person who lives in the world, and that you are "one of them" when they are out among the English.

          5. Identify and decry Villains - Nothing holds a group together better than the outside pressure of a good antagonist. Other gurus, Google slaps, The Economy, BP, Osama, whatever - villains are the flip side of the Values coin. Values draw them toward you positively. Villains push them towards you AWAY from something else.

          If you use that pattern over and over and over again, you become part of the world, and not just a brand name. You become part of their "tribe" because you have common rivals. You become part of their "friends" because you share the same values. You become part of their "family" because you feel the same way they do about the things you SEE - and you see them because you are RIGHT THERE with them.

          Eventually, when you call out things YOU see and YOU feel that they might not necessarily share, they WILL adopt them and ACCEPT them without thinking twice because your mental apparatus is so attuned to be like theirs, their brain will subconsciously TRUST your information.

          This makes it way more likely that not only will they pay attention and remember, they will INTERNALIZE it, forget that you told them, and then think it was their idea all along.

          Which is why when you develop this relationship based marketing, you don't talk about the products - you talk about the problems they face. Whether they actually face them NOW or not doesn't matter because they believe the problem is REAL, and that they WILL face it. They trust you.

          So when you then offer solutions to the problem, there's no need to push - no need to sell. You are offering a solution to a problem they ALREADY feel the have, or are in danger of facing. They already WANT the product. All you have to do is make them aware it exists (with an affiliate link) and get out of the way.

          This is how these top level gurus can send a once sentence affiliate email that says "Check it out - link" and be a top 10 finisher for a huge product launch. It's NOT about the content of the email - it's about the relationship they built up in EVERY PREVIOUS communication.

          Anyway, hope that contributes.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    It is not so much your relationship with them, but their "perceived relationship with you".

    When you have a list with thousands of subscribers, YOU cannot have a relationship with all of them, but the more intimate they perceive their relationship with you, the better off you will be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dean Jackson
    I agree with the drug dealing comment.

    There has to be something fresh for me. Im personally tired of receieving the same spun articles/PLR report freebies and super hyped sales letter thinking that its going to get a sale from me.

    When it is something unique, then I might be more inclined to leave them on my mailing list. An email once every3-7 days is fine, once or twice daily is not!!! And yes that does happen occasionally
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    I have pointed this out before, but I'll do it again.

    We all know FK talks a lot about 'building a realtionship' with your list, being cool with them, etc.

    We also know he made a lot of money from his dog training niche business.

    Well, in one of the MC videos you can see his dog trainning aweber account for a split second. If you pause the video, you can see his unsub rate for that list. It's over 50%.

    - You don't always need to make everyone on your list love you..
    - building a relationship with your list doesn't mean you can't sell to them...
    - you may not always want to take the same approach with every niche you get involved with.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      We all know FK talks a lot about 'building a realtionship' with your list, being cool with them, etc.
      ...
      Well, in one of the MC videos you can see his dog trainning aweber account for a split second. If you pause the video, you can see his unsub rate for that list. It's over 50%.

      - You don't always need to make everyone on your list love you..
      - building a relationship with your list doesn't mean you can't sell to them...
      - you may not always want to take the same approach with every niche you get involved with.
      Going outside of the IM niche for a moment, look at Rush Limbaugh...

      Of the folks familiar with him, most either love the guy or hate him. Very few are ambivalent.

      His audience is actually pretty small as a percentage of the population at large, but his 20 million Dittoheads have made him a NY Times best-selling author - twice - and one of the highest paid pitchmen on the radio. He may still be second to Paul Harvey, I'm not sure.
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      • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Going outside of the IM niche for a moment, look at Rush Limbaugh...

        Of the folks familiar with him, most either love the guy or hate him. Very few are ambivalent.

        His audience is actually pretty small as a percentage of the population at large, but his 20 million Dittoheads have made him a NY Times best-selling author - twice - and one of the highest paid pitchmen on the radio. He may still be second to Paul Harvey, I'm not sure.
        Here's a cool old interview with Rush from over 20 years ago before his "persona" was so well established. He talks frankly about how the talk radio biz works, and how he says what he says to get attention and build an audience. Really interesting stuff, and totally shows that there is more to the guy than the character he is to his fans.

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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        His audience is actually pretty small as a percentage of the population at large, but his 20 million Dittoheads have made him a NY Times best-selling author - twice - and one of the highest paid pitchmen on the radio. He may still be second to Paul Harvey, I'm not sure.
        Mr. Harvey said "Good Day" for good back in February of '09.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

          Mr. Harvey said "Good Day" for good back in February of '09.
          Don't know how I missed that...

          I think his son has taken over, and sounds so much like the original, it's scary. Just the other day, I heard one of those 'rest of the story' segments.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    You must be on the wrong list/s. I get invited over for BBQ's all the time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      I have pointed this out before, but I'll do it again.

      We all know FK talks a lot about 'building a realtionship' with your list, being cool with them, etc.

      We also know he made a lot of money from his dog training niche business.

      Well, in one of the MC videos you can see his dog trainning aweber account for a split second. If you pause the video, you can see his unsub rate for that list. It's over 50%.

      - You don't always need to make everyone on your list love you..
      - building a relationship with your list doesn't mean you can't sell to them...
      - you may not always want to take the same approach with every niche you get involved with.
      You might not know that around the time Frank was building that dog training biz, he was teaching the "bombard without mercy" method of email marketing.

      He actually got his start as a spammer way way back in the day. He tells people that and says he's reformed. Judging from the way he interacts with his current lists, I'd say he walks the talk.

      Now, I don't gotta toot the guy's horn, but a correction needed to be added there.

      As far as your 3 bullets though, that's dead on. You CAN'T make everyone on your list love you - instead, figure out what kind of person will love you, then go find where they are online and link them in.

      The relationship you build with a promotional list MUST be built on selling them things - otherwise they get mad when you try. That' why I think totally opaque freebies are a bad idea - you can be real and friendly, but it must always be clear that the relationship is a commercial one.

      You can keep it largely separated, like if you have explicit ads in a pure content newsletter (vs. the "pretend this is an unbiased review" B.S.)

      For your last bullet though, I'm not sure I agree - I think you should always go for building the deep relationship, because that's what people CAN'T EVER COPY.

      If you do no relationship building, someone who does can always come in and take all your prospects and customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaunAllen
    Does he still have the dog training business?

    I remember thinking of Frank as an e-mail God but was sorely disappointed years ago when I joined his dog training list. I remember thinking then if this is how you made 4-figures per day than it can't be that hard.

    Like was said above, he has changed his approach to e-mail marketing but I still wasn't that impressed and I don't think he sucked 4 years ago either.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDawson
    Banned
    Well, I'm not on too many lists, but I provide my subscribers with good information, and I try to keep the affiliate links to a degree so that it actually helps them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Stirling
    I would agree that marketers 'sell harder' to their freebie lists.. I know I do.

    The theory behind it is to get your prospect in your sales funnel asap. Then
    you treat your customers to more freebies and special offers etc to get them
    to stay customers.

    It sounds cold and heartless, but freebie seekers aren't worth holding on to.
    I know I wouldn't hold on to a list no matter how big it was if they were 100%
    freebie seekers.

    There does need to be some relationship building to get them warmed up but
    you can warm them up enough with your first contact if you do it right.

    I love to study other marketers' ways of building that relationship.. when someone
    really gets me to stand up and say (not literally) "gee, this guy is awesome" I take
    note and try to do the same in my marketing.
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