Possible Fraud?

15 years ago

That is interesting considering you are willing to send him the download link manually...

I want to say more but will hold off until more light is shed on this situation...

Mike Hill

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AndrewCavanagh

15 years ago

The automatic redirects to downloads certainly can break down for various reasons (IPNs not matching, website service going down temporarily etc etc.)

And the odd person can get annoyed enough that they didn't get the automatic download they were promised that they just ask for a refund.

"I offer him to send the download link manually, but he still ask for refund."

Yes but did you actually send the download link?

Think of it this way.

If someone ordered and paid for your product then didn't get sent to the download page for whatever reason (it happens a LOT as you'll discover after you've been marketing online for a while)...

And you OFFER to send him the download link instead of just sending it (he has paid after all)...

It kind of makes YOU look like a scammer who has no product.

Now I'm not saying this isn't a scammer and I know you're not a scammer but it is helpful to know that this isn't an unusual situation and happens to quite legitimate customers.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

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minisite911

15 years ago

thanks all, really appriciate it

any other inputs?

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PhilG

15 years ago

>>>>any other inputs?

The best suggestion that I have for you is "get used to it". This won't be the last time this happens if you choose to continue in IM.

Always send a confirming email after a sale. Thank the customer for his order and congratulate him/her for making an investment in their future. Include the download link if you wish, but at the very least mention that if they had any issues with the download, you will make every effort to help them.

You can do this manually or find a program that handles these emails automatically for you.

I hope this helps.
Phil G

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greenwing

15 years ago

I am the person in question that Oki thinks is trying to rip him off.

When I purchased his WSO I did not receive a download link. I was not redirected by PayPal nor did I get an email with a download link. I then posted a reply on to him on his offer thread. I waited 3 days and no reply. I then sent him an email asking for a refund. He finally responded 4 days after I had made the payment. He said that he was "traveling" and that he doesn't check the posts on his offer. By this time I was more than a little ticked off and I didn't believe him. I didn't want anything to do with him or his offer and wanted a refund.

Now he posts about a ripoff and uses my name and smears me by saying he thinks I'm trying to steal from him. How would any of you feel if someone put your forum name in a post that accused you of ripping somebody off? I wanted a refund because of his unprofessional way that he handled the situation. Most of us would do the right thing and issue an immediate refund.

My PayPal account is unverified because PayPal froze my 6 year old account with $6K in it a little over a month ago due to a violation of terms and service that they say occurred over 5 years ago. I will never tie a bank account to my PayPal account ever again. I now have almost 5 months to wait before I can access my funds.

If this guy was a real business person he would issue a refund immediately. Now we are not talking about $97 or even $47, but $27. I am sure that most of you and myself would issue a refund right then and there. I did what was required, I put up my money. Oki didn't do what he should have done and that is monitor his WSO and make sure that all was running smoothly.

This guy is half way around the world and doesn't respond to my request for a download link. After that I don't want to have anything to do with him or his product, I just want a refund. It's about customer service, or lack thereof. He doesn't have any or he wouldn't have had to make this forum post.

I always find that when both sides of an issue are exposed that it tends to change one's opinion. Thanks Oki for the hatchet job.

I'm not a spammer or a scammer. This would have never gone this far if Oki would have been professional and done a follow up email after the purchase. He didn't check the posts on his WSO and had no idea if anything had gone wrong. That's what leads to problems with customers. When you sell someone a product you must make sure that they received it. Don't make them wait days before an issue is resolved. They get pissed off. Case in point.

Please feel free to PM me.

Mike Roberts
greenwing

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Dixiebelle

15 years ago

Originally Posted by greenwing

I am the person in question that Oki thinks is trying to rip him off.

When I purchased his WSO I did not receive a download link. I was not redirected by PayPal nor did I get an email with a download link.

My PayPal account is unverified because PayPal froze my 6 year old account with $6K in it a little over a month ago due to a violation of terms and service that they say occurred over 5 years ago. I will never tie a bank account to my PayPal account ever again. I now have almost 5 months to wait before I can access my funds.

Mike Roberts
greenwing

Mike: It's possible you didn't get a download link from Paypal because they probably didn't pay for your purchase. You stated above, that your account was frozen over a month ago, and it would take 5 months to access your account. It sounds like your account was tied up at the time of purchase.

I have never heard of Paypal allowing a purchase to be paid for out of a frozen account. That just doesn't happen. Both of you should check your Paypal records to make sure that the money actually went through.

More than likely, that is the reason you never received the download link, and he really doesn't owe a refund if he never received payment.

With that being said, there is still no excuse for your email requests not being answered, and you certainly should not have received such a blatant accusation in an open forum. You both should PM each other and see if you can get this straightened out privately.

Stay Cool.

Dixie

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Hi Oki,

I think you should delete the customer's profile link in your post. Since we don't know the whole story, it's not fair to him. And I'm always an advocate of customer privacy.

It would be different if you had absolute proof that this guy had bad intentions, etc. But you're basically just guessing here. So share your story -- that's fine -- but leave the names out of it.

My two cents...

Cheers,
Becky

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MeTellYou

15 years ago

the internet is so easy to abuse. it's ridiculous. and all we really have is our reputation. I am not going to judge that guy, but if he's not honest, he's not going to get anywhere anyways.

too bad for him.
Sebastian

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Frank Ayres

15 years ago

I have dealt with Oki and he is an honest and standup guy.
People do have other commitments and sometimes have to be away from the PC.
What i dont understand is if you wanted the item enough to purchase it surely having to wait 4 days isnt the end of the world.
If it had been me and you said you hadnt recieved the link i would have offered to have sent it to you maunally as well and i would have found it odd if you had said no

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Kay King

15 years ago

Oki -

You are off base on this one in my opinion and should not have posted this publicly.

On 10-16, greenwing left a message on your wso thread about not receiving the download for his purchase. To this day, you have not posted an answer to that message. If you don't have time to respond to posts in your WSO - maybe you shouldn't have a WSO running.

When someone pays you, many things can go wrong with paypal redirects, email, etc. As a seller it's your responsibility to send the download link - not ask if he wants it. If you have the money he sent - his paypal account status is not your business.

Waiting four days to respond to a refund request - especially after being notified previously that the download was not received - is not a good practice.

kay

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Cali16

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Oki -

You are off base on this one in my opinion and should not have posted this publicly.

On 10-16, greenwing left a message on your wso thread about not receiving the download for his purchase. To this day, you have not posted an answer to that message. If you don't have time to respond to posts in your WSO - maybe you shouldn't have a WSO running.

I totally agree with Kay on this. IMO, when someone runs a WSO, they should do it only when they can be available at least for some amount of time every day for the next several days. Why bother to run a WSO if you aren't going to be around to answer questions or deal with any potential problems that may arise? If you have some sort of unexpected emergency that makes you unavailable, then find 2 minutes to make a post in your WSO thread to let people know...most will be understanding. Or at least get back to your WSO as soon as possible thereafter to let people know why you were gone. I am amazed how many people start a WSO, then disappear for several days and people's questions and support issues (like in this case) are left unanswered. That is a poor business practice no matter how you look at it. I don't blame Greenwing for asking for a refund in this case.

Yes, most things can be automated (except answers to questions people post in a WSO thread) but even then, things can go wrong, which is what it sounds like happened in this situation.

I think it is unprofessional of you to put the buyer's profile and username in a public forum thread. Instead of responding to him in your WSO thread, which would have been appropriate, you start a thread here, sadly, doing some potential damage to your own reputation. This should have been handled privately or at least in your WSO thread. Not trying to be harsh, but if the tables were turned, how would you feel? Looking at your WSO, it shows you haven't posted there since 10/13, so why start this thread 10 days later? Personally, I think you owe Greenwing a public apology here and should immediately refund his money.

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MeTellYou

15 years ago

Good thing I read this.

I hope Oki has the guts to react to this.

Sebastian

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kelvin yeo

15 years ago

Yeah, I think Oki needs to respond responsibly in this matter.

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mmurtha

15 years ago

Oki,

You want my input?

I don't think you should have psoted his profile for public view, especially since it goes against the first rule of this forum, and you didn't have any facts.

Now, I'd most certainly would at least give greenwing an apologie, then ask everyone to delete this post.

Hey greenwing,

Unfortunately, people jump the gun before they think. Sorry this happened to you. It shouldn't have happened at all.

Mary

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minisite911

15 years ago

Hi folks,
glad to see many repsonse in this thread

Despite of my doubt, REFUND ISSUED

Michael, I'd like to apologize to expose your name on this forum. As I said earlier, please don't take this as an "accused", but rather an "investigation". As I said on this thread title "POSSIBLE fraud".
Appearantly, you appear and explains everything (though some things are still not making sense to me). But I'm really glad you did, and I've issued the refund.

Some things are still bothering me, though (you don't need to explain if you don't want to):
- If your paypal is frozen 5 years ago, how is it possible for you to issue payment to purchase the WSO?
- You seems like a long time member, joining since April 2006, but how can you only have 18 posts? if that still seems normal, why did you delete 16 of them?

Again, you don't need to answer that if you don't feel necessary, Those are just the thoughts that trigger my doubt.

Again I'd apologize for posting this issue on a thread. I just thought to share my experience.. I've seen another thread about some guy doing fraud, buying WSO but then report a fraud to paypal and issue a refund the next day. Just don't want the same things to happen to all of us.

Hope everyone understand my point, eventought my english is horrible, lol.

PS: I really appriciate all of the comments from other warriors, really. Will put that in mind next time I run my next WSO. Thanks folks!

Cheers,
Oki

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minisite911 15 years ago

btw, I do went out of town a week ago, if anyone has doubt about that

If you can check my IP address, you can see that for a week I'm thousands miles away from where I live (Jakarta). My grandma is really sick, and the family had to gather to give support. Thank God she's better now (at least she began to remember my name, lol).

Cheers,
Oki
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sparrow

15 years ago

I think lesson learned here is if you run a WSO, you should try to be available to handle customer support immediatley

I know sometimes this can be an issue sometimes, and if this is the case state so in your WSO so people know you are away for a couple of days and will handle the problems when you get back

I think this could eliminated the buyers questions of why does the seller not respond

I think people here in the Warrior forum expect people who run WSO's to be available at all times since this is a forum,

I find people impatient sometimes due to the times but if your customer has to wait four days to hear from you this is wrong especially since maybe you left no notice

ED

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joblythe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by minisite911

btw, I do went out of town a week ago, if anyone has doubt about that

If you can check my IP address, you can see that for a week I'm thousands miles away from where I live (Jakarta). My grandma is really sick, and the family had to gather to give support. Thank God she's better now (at least she began to remember my name, lol).

Oki,

I wouldn't dig myself any deeper! If you were available on another IP - you were AVAILABLE to answer queries, questions etc. This type of situation/query would not depend on where in the world you were!

Michael has a Paypal account frozen (for the reasons mentioned) - did he mention he used that particular one to purchase?

The members time on the forum v number of posts - has NOTHING to do with this at all.

Why, oh why, didn't you respond sooner and refund accordingly? Lesson learned?

Just my thoughts . . .

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R Hagel

15 years ago

OKi,

First off, click on some profiles here and search other member's messages. See how many posts I have? But how many actually show up -- 25.

That's because this forum was moved this summer. Here's the old link:

The Warrior Forum

In other words, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why Mike has 17 or 18 posts but only a few show up.

And yet I get the feeling you're still accusing him. Despite the fact that the business matter is settled, you're on a public forum "investigating" him. But it's really coming off as an accusation.

I considered starting a post with a title that says, "Oki possibly ripped me off big time!"

I bet if you saw that post, your heart would stop for a second. You'd be mad. And you'd scramble to save your reputation.

Does the fact that I used the word "possibly" make you feel any better? Probably not, especially if my post would go on to assume you were guilty of something.

And you know what? This forum also gets indexed by the search engines. So now you have Mike's name showing up alongside the word "fraud." What if someone finds this post via a search engine, reads quickly and just associates Mike with "fraud?"

Bottom line: If you wanted to post this question, you should have done so in general, no names. And anything else -- all these other accusations -- should have been done in private... just you and Mike.

Becky

P.S. Also as mentioned, you should reply to questions in your WSO.

PPS. Good point, Jo.

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mmurtha

15 years ago

Oki,

uhum ... I titally agree with Becky here.

Aki wrote:

I've seen another thread about some guy doing fraud, buying WSO but then report a fraud to paypal and issue a refund the next day. Just don't want the same things to happen to all of us.

And this is precisely why posts like this shouldn't be posted here in the forum. It only creates problems in the community.

Mary

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greenwing 15 years ago

Oki

Thanks for refunding my purchase today. I appreciate it.

----------------------------------------------------------
Oki said: Despite of my doubt, REFUND ISSUED

The smiley face don't cut it.

Wow - You tell me your sorry and apologize and then intimate you think I'm still a theif. LOL!

I don't think your apology shows that you are even remotely sorry, only sorry about being exposed, publicly humiliated and having to give a refund.

Fact: My 6 year old PayPal account was frozen a little over a month ago. I cannot use that account to send or receive money nor can I get my money out of it for 6 months.

Fact: PayPal "generously" lets you open another account. You get verified by tying a bank account to your PayPal account. After what they did to me I'll never associate a bank account with my PayPal account. I'm afraid I don't trust them much anymore. I had to open up a new account because I have subscriptions to pay and I buy things like WSO's and stuff on Ebay that really require a PayPal account.

The Payment you received was from my "new" account. My payment instrument on the account is a "debit card".

Now is that more information than you ever needed to know? I think so......

The truth is that I never received a download link for your product. You can believe it or not. I buy WSO's all the time. I never ask for a refund even if the product isn't as good as it should be. The only reason I asked for a refund from you was that I didn't receive a download link and you took 4 days to respond. That made me not trust you. You didn't deliver so give me my money back. It was that simple. You made this into something that both of us regret.

Oki, you think you are in the business of selling templates. You aren't! The product you sell is templates, but you are in the "customer service business". A business is built on how you treat your customers. It's all about communication. If you don't communicate in a timely manner it doesn't matter to your customer why you didn't, it just matters that they didn't get the service that they needed and expected. When people don't get what they need and expect you will have an unhappy customer. Don't treat them like they're the enemy. You are spending too much time worrying about yourself. Spend that time worrying about making your customers happy.

You say you're worried about getting ripped off. I can guarantee you that some point someone will rip you off. If you're in business it will happen. It has happened to me many times in over 30 years of being self employed.

You need to put things in perspective. This was about $27, not $500. You have made my life miserable for the last 24 hours because of your post and now I'll bet you aren't feeling very good about making that post. All for what? If you are that worried about getting taken advantage of then find another line of work!

To all the Warriors who responded to this thread I would like to thank you for injecting some sanity and common sense into it. I really do appreciate it!

Thanks!

Mike Roberts
Greenwing
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admin

Administrator 15 years ago

Closing this now - the OP is a prime example of why we don't allow this type of post here. Wish I had seen it sooner.

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